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snipers!?!?!?

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Topic: snipers!?!?!?
Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Subject: snipers!?!?!?
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 9:20am
    I myself thought that snipers in paintball were about the stupidest idea ever, boy was I wrong. I am sorry for ever doubting anyone in a ghillie suit calling themselves a sniper.Please let me explain.
    I went to my first big game this weekend and there was this guy in a ghillie suit with a sniper rifle and I thought to myself man this guy is going to get it. I was wrong.  We were team mates and as soon as we stepped on the field he was gone and never to be seen again. Then end of the day came and I kept hearing about all the kills he made from the other team.
    Well the end of the game came and they gave out awards. The other general gave our sniper the m.v.p. award. What how can this be??? There is no such thing as a sniper in paintball right .....wrong.See the other team had the advantage. Their base was the tower in the middle of a field, where the trenches are (splat brothers). Our team was in the swamp in this little KFC bucket for a base. Well the other general congradulated the sniper and said he was coming in our front door,side towers, and back door.He single handily took there base so many times.
    Well the final battle we won the game took the tower and held it. Best paintball experience of my life!!! I can not wait to play another one in fall!!!! All I hope is that we have that guy on our team again!


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The one you love to hate



Replies:
Posted By: DsXz
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 9:26am

gtfo



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http://imageshack.us">


Posted By: sinisterNorth
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 9:28am
Bigger scenario games due tend to recognize "sniper" as a role. Not surprising really, but seriously, the term sniper will never apply to paintball.

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Pumpker'd; (V.) When a pump player runs up and shoots you at point blank range because you thought 20bps made you good.


Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 10:03am
Originally posted by DsXz DsXz wrote:


                

gtfo


gfy
Sorry for the harsh abbreviations..... lol ! Guest me !


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The one you love to hate


Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 12:50pm

...Hes a sniper because he had camo and a marker that looked like a sniper rifle?



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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 12:52pm
I'd call him a sniper if he'd taken the general of the other team out from a distance of over 500 yards.... but he didn't. Not a sniper, just sneaky.

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<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 2:12pm
Did he use cover and concealment well? Apparently yes (since he disappeared). Was he sneaky? Well, since he kept getting inside the opponent's base, he might have been. (Or they might have had a really poor base defense plan, or troops that didn't do what they were supposed to do.) Did he make shots at ranges that other people couldn't? It wasn't mentioned in the original post if he did. Did he have range/accuracy capabilities beyond those of normal grunts? Again, not mentioned.

So in essence, he used really good tactics. Sounds like he probably used tactics better than most of the other team. I'd also bet there was a lot of patience involved in making sure he waited for just the right time to move/act. This all makes him a very good player, it doesn't make him a sniper.


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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 4:44pm
From the sounds of it his amazing feats involved rolling bases. If you manage to slip into a base unnoticed and take enough people out to open the whole thing to be rolled you deserve mvp. If he hid in a bush and shot people, no. I dont care how many people you shoot a a big game if it isn't worth points.


Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 4:45pm
go away troll

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<just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs>


Posted By: barn_user
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 6:19pm
I once shoot two guys in the head playing alamo, wearing jeans and a red sweatshirt with a stock 98 custom.


Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 8:39pm



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The one you love to hate


Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 9:32pm
15 year old kids? So that makes you what, 16? Seriously, grow up and stop with the insults. If you have a debate, support it, otherwise shut up.


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

I am over this forum. Please guest me so I am not tempted to repost. I like paintball but not this online -------- (filter dodge has to worth it). Not to me, there's a reason the forum has filters.I am over griping with a bunch of 15 year old kids. Get it over with later to all that were nice to me. All I like is the marker part anyways. The rest is ---. Later.


Bye.

Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

15 year old kids? So that makes you what, 16? Seriously, grow up and stop with the insults. If you have a debate, support it, otherwise shut up.


He is supporting it. He's using the famous "throw a tantrum and leave technique."


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Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 8:45am
I thought that taking small groups out with a single person under maximum concealment would be considered sniping. I still do because this is a role playing game of sorts. All guns have the same range. Of course you are not going to shoot a paintball 500 yards. That would be ridiculous. Like a Nerf vortex actually blowing up a whole base. Maybe a tank rolling around the field destroying stuff or a helicopter dropping people on the field. It is all part of the game. The fantasy aspect of it. I on the other hand am sticking to my guns. By the way more like 29.

Webster dictionaries definition as follows:

sniper
 
 NOUN
 
    1.A marksman who shoots people from a concealed place.


Yes ti does say that it is from a long distance in another part but once again may I point out THIS IS A PAINTBALL ROLL PLAYING FANTSY GAME NO A REAL ONE. It is just for fun and I take it as such.


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The one you love to hate


Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 9:18am

Well, isnt everyone a sniper usually, using that definition, when playing woodsball?



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Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 9:44am
I guess but I was just using it to win my point. 

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The one you love to hate


Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 12:13pm
He is sneaky and spent too much money at Spec Ops. That does not mean he is a sniper

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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

I am over this forum. Please guest me so I am not tempted to repost. I like paintball but not this online -------- (filter dodge has to worth it). Not to me, there is a reason the forum has filters. I am over griping with a bunch of 15 year old kids. Get it over with later to all that were nice to me. All I like is the marker part anyways. The rest is ---. Later.


Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

I guess but I was just using it to win my point. 


You're still here?


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Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 1:24pm
I figure I can battle and piss off some of you retards.

PS: Be a man and get a dog cats are for lonely old ladies


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The one you love to hate


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

I figure I can battle and piss off some of you retards.


Ahh, so you admit you're trolling. In that case there is no point in engaging you in reasonable debate. You are dismissed . . . please go away now.


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Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 1:36pm
Cool, a nice sniper flame war. I haven't seen one of these in...

um

um

A year or so.

So therefore it is time for the old Sniper post to come out again.

Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:


The History of Military Sniping, and how it relates to the Game of Paintball.

Ok. So I got bored, and I am sick and tried of this stupid sniper debate. I got a Barnes and Noble gift card for Christmas, and didn’t know what else to get so I picked up several books on Military Snipers. Here are my findings.

< -- Note: Due to a problem with my code, you have to Highlight my rifle comparison tables to see them. It’s a bother, but if someone knows how to fix it, PM me. -- >

First lets go over the basics of what a sniper is, and what a sniper is not.

“A sniper…is considered a specialist, whose prime function is to kill selected high value targets at long range using superior skill and armament. A sharpshooter, by contrast, is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Keep this in your mind as you read the rest of the article.

The American Revolution (1775-83)

Sniping first came onto the battlefield during the American Revolution. Standard infantry of this period were equipped with “Brown Bess” smoothbore muskets. The Continental Congress approves 10 independent companies, armed with long rifles. The men of these companies were the first snipers.

Comparison between the “Brown Bess” musket, and the Long Rifle.

“A soldiers musket, if not exceedingly ill bored (as many are), will strike the figure of a man at 80 yards: it may even at 100, but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, provided that the antagonist aims at him; as to firing at a man at 200 yards, with a common, musket, you might as well fire at the moon.” –British Major Hanger, on the “Brown Bess” musket

 In contrast, the American Long Rifle (as carried by the Irregular companies), was effective in ranges up to 300 yards, and headshots could be achieved at 200. At these ranges American Snipers picked-off high ranking British Officers. During the battle of Saratoga an American sniper brought down British General Simon Frasier from a range of 300 yards. Despite its advantages the long rifle had several disadvantages. Its slow reload time(2 shots a minute), and lack of bayonet fixture made it useful only as a skirmisher weapon, not for use as a standard infantry weapon.

 

Brown Bess

Long Rifle

Range:

80 Yards

300 Yards

Muzzle Velocity:

1100-1300 fps

 ~1600fps

Ammunition:

.75 caliber ball

.40-.70 caliber ball

 

As you can see from the table, the Rifle outranged the common muskets of the time by over 200 yards. Also the muzzle velocity of the Rifle was much higher than that of the Brown Bess.

The War of Northern Aggression (American Civil War) (1861-65)

During the Civil War, the standard infantry rifles were the Enfield(for the south), and the Springfield(for the north). These were muzzleloading rifles with effective ranges up to 500 yards. The confederacy managed to acquire Witworth and Kerr rifles from Europe for their snipers. These rifles had an effective range of well over 1200 yards, and hits were reported at over 1500 yards.

Confederate Snipers were selected in a manner which has been used to select snipers in most present wars. The best men from each infantry regiment entered into shooting competitions. They were required to hit man-sized boards at 500 yards. The best shooters were given the prized Kerr and Witworth rifles. They then went through extensive training in the use of these rifles.

The snipers were warned never to get within 400 yards of the enemy, but to use their superior range, to keep the enemy at a safe distance.

 

Springfield/Enfield

Kerr & Withworth

Range:

 1200+ yards

500 Yards

Muzzle Velocity:

 

 

Ammunition:

.451 Hexagonal Slug

 

 

World War I (1914-18)

US Snipers during World War I used modified, and accurized versions of  the standard service rifle the Springfield 1903, equipped with 2 to 4 power scopes. Snipers during the war mostly sniped from behind the MLR, the main trench line. These snipers were Infantrymen taken off the line, and equipped with scoped rifles. With their rifles they could pick the enemy off 3 or 4 trench lines back from the MLR. The marksmanship standard for infantry of the time was to be able to hit a standing man from around 100 yards. The snipers were trained to hit targets from over 500 yards.

World War II (1938-45)

World War II snipers were selected in different manners during the war. I will concentrate on the Marine Corps Snipers trained at Green’s Farm because the documentation of this school and its snipers is the best. There, snipers were instructed in 5 week courses in marksmanship, camouflage, and field craft. They were trained to approach a target using stealth and to eliminate the target from long distances. These snipers were required to hit a moving target at 500 yards, and to hit a stationary target at 1000. They were equipped much the same way as snipers in WWI  were. These snipers used accurized  versions of the M1903 Springfield service rifle, the A1 or A3 variants equipped with 2 or 4 power scopes. Marine Infantry qualified at 500 yards.

 

M1 Garand

M1903A3

Range

500 yards

1000yards

Ammunition

.30-06

.30-06

Korea (1950-53)

Korea, in the latter part of the war turned into a bogged down war of attrition, looking somewhat like the trench warfare of WWI. This, alongside Korea’s terrain of rolling hills combined to make it prime sniper territory. Sniping tactics in Korea did not change much from the tactics of WWII so I will not elaborate on them. The rifles also remained the same. Snipers in Korea were equipped with 1903A3 Variant Springfield’s, and National Match M1’s(which were used in competition shooting because they were more accurate than the standard M1) Equipped with 4 power scopes(the M1D model). The accuracy of the M1 was not as good as that of the Springfield, due to the need to offset the scope, and have major Eye Relief built-in to the rifle due to the Clip Feed of the M1. These M1’s still were able to reach ranges of 500 yards accurately. In Korea the use of the .50 caliber round for sniping was first seen. M2 Machine Guns mounted with a 10 power scope were able to reach ranges of 2800 yards effectively, Snipers also experimented with .55 Caliber Boy’s antitank rifles modified to take .50 caliber rounds, and mounted with scopes which had the same range as the M2, but was able to be carried by a man whereas the M2’s were limited to fixed positions.

 

M1D Sniper Model

M1903A3 Sniper

M2 Machine Gun

Range

500 yards

1000 yards

2500 yards

Ammunition

.30-06

.30-06

.50 Caliber

 

Vietnam (1965-75)

Vietnam is the perfect example of how a sniper can be employed during combat. The restrictive ROE and vast open fields and rice paddy’s of Vietnam became prime sniper territory. The Marine Corps and the Army both Fielded Snipers. Army snipers were equipped with accurized versions of the M14 service rifle, accurate out to 700 yards. The Marine Corps fielded snipers equipped with Winchester Model 70 Hunting rifles firing the .30-06 cartridge, and later in the war snipers carried the M40, which fired the standard 7.62x51mm(.308) cartridge both of these rifles had an effective range of over 1000 yards. Also snipers used modified M2 .50 caliber machine guns, fitted with scopes. These were accurate to ranges out to 2500 yards. Normal infantry of the time fired the M16 Assault Rifle, and the enemy fired the AK-47 assault rifle. These rifles were designed for infantry combat which takes place in ranges of only around 200 yards, and can only be fired accurately up to 500 yards. Thus snipers were able to operate with impunity from beyond the range of effective return fire of the enemy.

 

M16

Winchester 70

M40

M14 Sniper

Range

500 yards

1000 yards

1000 Yards

700 yards

Ammunition

5.56mm

.30-06

7.62x51mm

7.62x51mm

 

 

 

 

 

Now through all these wars several things have remained in common among snipers, lets analyze these facts:

A sniper acts independently from standard infantry, not as a part of a unit but in a one or two man team.

This is possible in paintball, most of the time in scenario games, I am alone behind enemy lines trying to accomplish a mission. But you do very little if any tactical good for your team waiting in one spot for an entire game, hoping a target of high-value (such as the opposing general) walks by.

A sniper does not act at random, he selects targets of high value and eliminates them.

Targets of High Value in a military sense are:

  1. Officers:
    • Generals
    • Field Grade officers
    • Company Grade officers
  2. Forward Observers
  3. Crew Served Weaponry:
    • Heavy Machine Guns
    • Artillery Batteries
    • Mortar Crews
  4. Non Commissioned Officers
  5. Radiomen

Targets of High Value in Paintball:

  1. Generals
  2. Tank Crewman (if there are tanks)
  3. Um…. Yeah… that’s all I can think of...

The problem with selecting high value targets in a scenario paintball game is, there are very few. The vast majority of players play independently, not under any command and they do what they want. What officers and team captains there are do not look any different than any other players.

The Sniper fires at targets from beyond the range of return fire by the standard infantry weapons, or from distances that were beyond the training of the normal infantryman.

As you can see from the diagrams of the Sniper Rifles of the Period in comparison to the standard issue infantry weapons, the sniper rifle always has a great deal more range than infantry weapons, and the sniper has been trained to an accuracy standard that is beyond that of standard infantry training.

This is where sniping in paintball fails. All paintball markers except those equipped with the Flatline or Apex systems fire the same distance, around 25 yards or 75 feet. The Flatline will reach ranges of up to 150 ft, but because the ball loses velocity at the same rate as a normal paintball, the chances of getting a break, or a single accurate shot at those ranges are close to zero.

The sniper uses a single accurate shot to take his targets down.

The ammunition expended to kill ratio of a sniper in Vietnam was 1.7 rounds per kill. The average infantryman expended 50,000 rounds per confirmed kill.

It is possible to take targets down with a single shot in paintball. However it is near impossible to eliminate a target with a single shot from beyond the effective range of return fire by the enemy.

A sniper uses camouflage and concealment to hide himself from his enemies to eliminate his targets.

No qualms with this, it can be done. Most every scenario paintball player does it. Using camouflage doe not make you sniper.

 

 

Now as you can see there are several places where sniping fails in paintball. Now look at the definition of a Sharpshooter:

“A sharpshooter… is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Ok, this looks a little more feasible in the game of paintball than the sniper definition doesn’t it?

For paintball purposes we can strike rifleman, because there are no rifles in paintball.

“who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

This sounds feasible. The definition of a sniper that Spec Ops puts forth is one of an “ambush player” that fires from concealment, using camouflage. The problem with the Spec Ops definition of a sniper is that it perfectly describes the definition of a sharpshooter in a military sense.

So we will set forth the definition of a Sharpshooter in paintball. This is what most of you would call a Sniper in paintball.

A sharpshooter takes shots from concealment, shoots at targets as the opportunity arises, and uses a marker that has the same range as everyone else’s. This is not a Sniper. This is a sharpshooter. You will never be a sniper in paintball simple ballistics prevent this from ever happening.

The fact of the matter is if you think you are a sniper in paintball, your terminology is wrong. The definition of a sharpshooter, fits paintball a lot closer that the definition of a sniper. But for those of you who insist that you are still snipers, look at an analogy: You work for a living. Your job is to go to people’s houses and businesses, to pick up their trash and take it to the dump. You drive a Garbage Truck. What would you be called, a Garbage Man, or a Professional Truck Driver?

You would be called a Garbage Man, would you not? As much as you would prefer to be called a Professional Truck Driver, everyone would call you a Garbage Man because it fits what you are doing better than the title Professional Truck Driver does.

 

The definition of Sharpshooter, or a Designated Marksman fits what you are doing in paintball a whole lot better than Sniper does. Stop fooling yourself.

 

References:

 

SNIPER- Adrian Gilbert

One Shot-One Kill- Charles W. Sasser and Craig Roberts

Marine Sniper- Charles Henderson

 

Authors Note: In my haste of writing this, I may have gotten some minor facts mixed up, or in the wrong place. Please contact me with the correct info if you have something to add, or a correction.





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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 1:38pm
Snake FTW. VBwhoever FTL.

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Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Snake FTW. VBwhoever FTL.

Thank You, Thank You...

Donations are accepted in the forms of checks, MO's, and Paypal.

That is all.


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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 2:04pm

Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

I thought that taking small groups out with a single person under maximum concealment would be considered sniping. I still do because this is a role playing game of sorts. All guns have the same range. Of course you are not going to shoot a paintball 500 yards. That would be ridiculous. Like a Nerf vortex actually blowing up a whole base. Maybe a tank rolling around the field destroying stuff or a helicopter dropping people on the field. It is all part of the game. The fantasy aspect of it. I on the other hand am sticking to my guns. By the way more like 29.

He actually makes a decent point here.

Webster dictionaries definition as follows:

sniper
 
 NOUN
 
    1.A marksman who shoots people from a concealed place.

He makes a stupid point here.


Yes ti does say that it is from a long distance in another part but once again may I point out THIS IS A PAINTBALL ROLL PLAYING FANTSY GAME NO A REAL ONE. It is just for fun and I take it as such.

Paintball world of warcraft is not a good idea



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<just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs>


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

THIS IS A PAINTBALL ROLL PLAYING FANTSY GAME NO A REAL ONE. It is just for fun and I take it as such.

Paintball world of warcraft is not a good idea



Your statement gave me visions of an argument between two role-playing paintball players:

Player 1:  You're out dude.

Player 2:  What, you missed me?

1: Yeah, but look at my purple robe and pointed hat, I'm a wizard and was using red paint.

2:  So?

1:  Red paint signifies a fireball spell, it's an area effect man, you're toast.

2:  But I'm wearing my ghillie of invisibility, there's no way you could have seen me to cast the spell, you must have cheated!

1:  What! How could I have cheated?

2:  I saw you talking to the guy that I eliminated earlier dressed all in black with the Phantom pump.

1:  You mean our team Ninja?  Our priest cast a speak with the dead spell.

2:  Is the priest the guy in the white bathrobe with "KC Hyatt" stamped on the back?

1:  Yeah.

2:  Well then, he should have talked to the dead guy, not you!

1 & 2:  REF!




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Posted By: killerhalo
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 6:48pm
why did he have to bring up the snipers are in paintball crap


Posted By: prolitesniper
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

I'd call him a sniper if he'd taken the general of the other team out from a distance of over 500 yards.... but he didn't. Not a sniper, just sneaky.


actually, somewhere(i forgot what state) there is a paintball sniping school i read about it in apg(action pursuit games) magazine

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Tippmann A5
RT
16in J&J Ceramic
14in linear smartparts
New BT Apex Barrel
45ci 3000psi Nitro System
blade trigger
4+1pack


Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by prolitesniper prolitesniper wrote:

actually, somewhere(i forgot what state) there is a paintball sniping school i read about it in apg(action pursuit games) magazine


That has to be about the biggest waste of money, time, and effort I've ever seen in my entire life.... seriously.... Oh, btw, the Scientologists have "schools" for their people, does that make them credible all of the sudden?



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<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>


Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 10:49pm
Man Carl why are you trying to break me down too?.LOL I remember that I entered one of your totm threads and went no where.I will give you credit though , over 4700 post in one year is quit a feat (happy forum b day). Man you must live for this. As far as that goes I really don't care. This is internet bs I will never see any of you guys. I do agree with my points but I see I have given you guys just what you look for.Everyone one else can talk trash just giving a little love back enjoy!!


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The one you love to hate


Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 11:36pm
One Point VB, Half of these guys on here are out of highschool already so....... S T F U or GTFO. SNIPERS=POOP learned that my first day here. like what 2 and a half years ago. I started one of these things and umm saw "the light"

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Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 09 April 2007 at 3:07pm

What is up with all these newer people bringing up dumb things on the forum.

I tell you, all these new people will be the end of us.

And the scary thing is, they are the future of earth!!



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hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives."


Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 09 April 2007 at 4:27pm
OMG I am so sorry I disagreed with the forums elitist and then stood up for myself what the hell was I thinking????????

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The one you love to hate


Posted By: Justice
Date Posted: 09 April 2007 at 4:30pm

Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

Man Carl why are you trying to break me down too?.LOL I remember that I entered one of your totm threads and went no where.I will give you credit though , over 4700 post in one year is quit a feat (happy forum b day). Man you must live for this. As far as that goes I really don't care. This is internet bs I will never see any of you guys. I do agree with my points but I see I have given you guys just what you look for.Everyone one else can talk trash just giving a little love back enjoy!!

Nah, Ive seen that post from Snake everytime a sniper debate comes around. Its called copy-paste.



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-JUSTICE
http://www.myspace.com/outkastpaintball - Outkast Myspace


Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 09 April 2007 at 4:36pm

Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

OMG I am so sorry I disagreed with the forums elitist and then stood up for myself what the hell was I thinking????????

I really dont know.



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Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 09 April 2007 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by Justice Justice wrote:

Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

Man Carl why are you trying to break me down too?.LOL I remember that I entered one of your totm threads and went no where.I will give you credit though , over 4700 post in one year is quit a feat (happy forum b day). Man you must live for this. As far as that goes I really don't care. This is internet bs I will never see any of you guys. I do agree with my points but I see I have given you guys just what you look for.Everyone one else can talk trash just giving a little love back enjoy!!

Nah, Ive seen that post from Snake everytime a sniper debate comes around. Its called copy-paste.


Yep. I got that, OS's Sniper Post and SR_Crewchief's all saved in my docs under "forum newb stuff".


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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 09 April 2007 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

OMG I am so sorry I disagreed with the forums elitist and then stood up for myself what the hell was I thinking????????


You're allowed to disagree, we're allowed to point out why you're wrong*. If you make an assertion, be prepared to support it. If you can't support it effectively, nobody is going to believe you and some people will point this out in ways that are rough on your self-esteem.  Welcome to real life.


*In our opinion.


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Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 09 April 2007 at 8:02pm
Real life in not here thats for sure! lol! Real life is face to face not keyboard to keyboard. Oh well I have everyones panties in a bunch so I will see you another day for another topic to have fun with! Keep your cat out of the road!

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The one you love to hate


Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 09 April 2007 at 8:06pm
The standard "beaten dog" response...

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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 09 April 2007 at 10:42pm
"Lions and Tigers, and Bears, Oh MY"

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Posted By: Justice
Date Posted: 10 April 2007 at 1:45pm

My question(s) to you that like to dispute the term "sniper" in paintball is...

Why does it matter to you that someone calls themselves a paintball sniper?

Does this effect your life in anyways? I would say no.

It's a matter of opinion, plain and simple and debating it is pointless.



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-JUSTICE
http://www.myspace.com/outkastpaintball - Outkast Myspace


Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 10 April 2007 at 1:51pm

I agree completely that debating the semantics of "sniper" is rather silly, much like the debate over "marker" versus "gun".  It makes no difference what appellations we use for any of these things.

I suspect, however, that the semantics debate is a proxy for a tactical debate - often the pro-"sniper" crowd is also arguing for the effectiveness of a particular tactical approach, and the anti-crowd arguing against the effectiveness thereof.

And while a semantics debate is useless, a debate of relative tactical merit is not.



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[IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/aag8s8.jpg">


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 10 April 2007 at 3:52pm
^^^ Probably has a lot to do with it. Additionally, while I can't speak for everyone else, I enjoy the actual debating. It is fun to debate with/against someone who can state their opinion in an intelligent manner and provide logic/facts to back it up (whether I agree or not). I consider putting up with the others who post such tripe as out of context dictionary definitions or statements such as "snipers kill, we don't kill in paintball" to be the price I pay for enjoying these intellectual exchanges. The better debators put in points/facts that make me think and reconsider.

I initially started out on the pro-sniper side of the argument, but some very good points by the more intelligent of the anti-sniper crowd convinced me otherwise. My current opinion is that paintball snipers do not exist except for under very specific and rare scenario game related circumstances. Even then, not everyone who plays the role in a scenario would be a paintball sniper. It would take exactly the right person in exactly the right situation. In other words, I wave my hand and say "bah" at the vast multitude of Hathcock wanna-bes who all think they're u93r 1377 snipers because they got a ghillie-suit and looked at a dictionary once.


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Posted By: paintballer40
Date Posted: 10 April 2007 at 9:23pm
i am going th have to agree with vbhardcore if i seen him playing with a gun like that and a guilly suit i would conscider him a sniper to


Posted By: Styro Folme
Date Posted: 10 April 2007 at 9:34pm
wow.  gone for a week and i come back to this....

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X


Posted By: jerseypaint
Date Posted: 10 April 2007 at 10:12pm
Wow, and here I was thinking snipers were only in Halo. Silly, me.


Posted By: White Rook II
Date Posted: 11 April 2007 at 10:29pm
snip·er  audio  (snpr) http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/pronunciation_key;_ylt=ArnzR43whU9eIXCBBBF8SHeugMMF - KEY  

NOUN:
  1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
  2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

For what it's worth.



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That's OK, I Wasn't Using My Civil Liberties Anyway


http://-paulhipp-.cf.huffingtonpost.com - Sub-Iraqian Homesick Blues




Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 11 April 2007 at 11:49pm

PEOPLE: STOP THROWING THAT DEFINITION AROUND! WE EFFIN' KNOW!!!

Okay, now here's why: The term "sniper" is a HECK of a lot broader than "shooting from a concealed place." You have to be clear of return fire, which basically translates outranging the target (you can't do that in paintball. Even with a Flatline or Apex effectively). You have to be able to pick out High Value Targets, or HVT's. You can't do that in paintball, because anyone alone in a scenario should not be an HVT. And there are more reasons, but I don't care enough to post them.



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Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"



Posted By: c4cypher
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 7:55am

Sniper Kitty!

Sniper Kitty dislikes this thread



Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 5:42pm




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The one you love to hate


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by c4cypher c4cypher wrote:

Sniper Kitty!

Sniper Kitty dislikes this thread



Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:





Whoa, looks like sniper kitty got pwned! Just like the would-be snipers on the paintball field.  (Sorry, just couldn't resist.)


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Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 10:36pm
Hey I don't hold anything against anyone just having fun with the discussion.

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The one you love to hate


Posted By: c4cypher
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 8:20am
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by c4cypher c4cypher wrote:

Sniper Kitty!

Sniper Kitty dislikes this thread



Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:





Whoa, looks like sniper kitty got pwned! Just like the would-be snipers on the paintball field.  (Sorry, just couldn't resist.)

/approve

Hilarious, that cat looks like it got it's nose smashed in with a mallet ... pug cat



Posted By: Black_Shadow
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 8:39am
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Player 1:  You're out dude.

Player 2:  What, you missed me?

1: Yeah, but look at my purple robe and pointed hat, I'm a wizard and was using red paint.

2:  So?

1:  Red paint signifies a fireball spell, it's an area effect man, you're toast.

2:  But I'm wearing my ghillie of invisibility, there's no way you could have seen me to cast the spell, you must have cheated!

1:  What! How could I have cheated?

2:  I saw you talking to the guy that I eliminated earlier dressed all in black with the Phantom pump.

1:  You mean our team Ninja?  Our priest cast a speak with the dead spell.

2:  Is the priest the guy in the white bathrobe with "KC Hyatt" stamped on the back?

1:  Yeah.

2:  Well then, he should have talked to the dead guy, not you!

1 & 2:  REF!


Dude! Call me when your smoking, you got good stuff!!!!

 
Originally posted by c4cypher c4cypher wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by c4cypher c4cypher wrote:

Sniper Kitty!

Sniper Kitty dislikes this thread



Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:





Whoa, looks like sniper kitty got pwned! Just like the would-be snipers on the paintball field.  (Sorry, just couldn't resist.)

/approve

Hilarious, that cat looks like it got it's nose smashed in with a mallet ... pug cat



Wow, first the cat gets hit with a hammer, then owned by a dog, and now were laughing at it because of a paintball sniper debate.

We're sick and twisted people aren't we?

Mods, please lock this thread... It increases the stupoodness factor of this forum by 36,000%


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98CP ACT
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Next Up: Spimmy


Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 9:12am

Mack, I have to agree with blackshadow.

VBHARDCORE, I don't care if you never meet a single person on this forum, that's no excuse to be a jackass and throw a tantrum.



Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

Mack, I have to agree with blackshadow.


Ahh, what's wrong with havin' a little fun.


Originally posted by Black_Shadow Black_Shadow wrote:

Dude! Call me when your smoking, you got good stuff!!!!


I probably shouldn't admit this, but no drugs are required for me to go off on a tangent like that. All it takes is for someone to make a comment that provides a good set up. (Usually something that provides for a really unique mental image.) In this case it was the following statement and response:

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:


Yes ti does say that it is from a long distance in another part but once again may I point out THIS IS A PAINTBALL ROLL PLAYING FANTSY GAME NO A REAL ONE. It is just for fun and I take it as such.

Paintball world of warcraft is not a good idea



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Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 4:48pm
Good god I butchered that! Roll playing, what the hell was I thinking? Man the spelling mistakes too? Mack you are cool with me! Lets face it, no matter how many definitions are posted or handbooks that our buddies wrote are posted on " The Proper Use of The Word SNIPER " we are just like democrats and republicans griping over who is right. Its Friday night the kid is over the in laws for the weekend I am going to get drunk, kick the crap out of my neighbors cat and maybe get laid by my wife. I'm out, peace fools!

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The one you love to hate


Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 7:49pm
First off lets review the basic Infantrymans role on the battlefield: Taken from Army FM 7-11
1-1. THE SOLDIER
Our infantrymen must be proficient in marksmanship, close combat, and fieldcraft. They should be proficient with other weapons in the unit as well as their own. They should also be familiar with foreign-made weapons they are apt to meet in battle. In the close fight, our infantrymen must be skilled in the employment of all weapons (rifles, bayonets, LAWs/AT4s, grenades, mines, and even their bare hands). They must be totally confident in their ability to right with these weapons. These infantrymen must be highly skilled in land navigation, camouflage, and tracking and stalking techniques.
Each soldier must be capable of moving undetected in close proximity to enemy soldiers for reconnaissance, for infiltration, and for achieving surprise in all operations. Our infantrymen must have the skill and the will-not to just participate in the close fight, but to dominate it.

And then please define and apply the tactics of the "ambush" as it applies to the close combat world of paintball.

Too many "wanna-bes" without the intestinal fortitude to get up front in the fight, rather they prefere hiding behind this "sniper definition" and those actually willing to "shoot, move, and communicate" like real players (Infantryman).

Got the 11B, and Sniper MOS designator, as well as a CIB, kinda know what I speak of here.

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Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 8:27pm
Man give it up, its over, let everyone call themselves what they want. It is a paintball game not real life. You can call yourself the team ballerina if you want. Doesnt matter as long as you are doing the missions and making the kills.

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The one you love to hate


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

Man give it up, its over, let everyone call themselves what they want. It is a paintball game not real life. You can call yourself the team ballerina if you want. Doesnt matter as long as you are doing the missions and making the kills.


Darn, there's another one of those unique visual images. Stop, stop now!


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Posted By: Black_Shadow
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 9:31am
Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

Man give it up, its over, let everyone call themselves what they want. It is a paintball game not real life. You can call yourself the team ballerina if you want. Doesnt matter as long as you are doing the missions and making the kills.


Has anybody else noticed the higher his post count gets the stupider his posts become???

--->> Mack, Dude, 2 of a kind, half the time ill be talking with someone about something and a single word will set me off on a crazy word linkage type thingy of doom. Even werid words like Cat, or for example...

SNIPER!

End of stupood debate


-------------
98CP ACT
R/T
J&J Ceramic 14"
Egg II w Z-Board
GTA Inline X-Chamber
NCStar Red-Dot
Pen Spring Mod
Trigger Stops
Polished Internals
Dye Sticky Grip
20oz Co2 w On/Off

Next Up: Spimmy


Posted By: VBHARDCORE
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Black_Shadow Black_Shadow wrote:

Originally posted by VBHARDCORE VBHARDCORE wrote:

Man give it up, its over, let everyone call themselves what they want. It is a paintball game not real life. You can call yourself the team ballerina if you want. Doesnt matter as long as you are doing the missions and making the kills.


Has anybody else noticed the higher his post count gets the stupider his posts become???

--->> Mack, Dude, 2 of a kind, half the time ill be talking with someone about something and a single word will set me off on a crazy word linkage type thingy of doom. Even werid words like Cat, or for example...

SNIPER!

End of stupood debate

Does this mean that we are not going to be BFF?


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The one you love to hate



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