Tallen and DeTrev!! (Autococker Q)
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: Tippmann Paintball
Forum Name: New Player Forum
Forum Description: New to the sport? Get Professional Advice Here!
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=166038
Printed Date: 14 February 2026 at 8:07am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Tallen and DeTrev!! (Autococker Q)
Posted By: ekeboo
Subject: Tallen and DeTrev!! (Autococker Q)
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 1:40pm
So i have an old 98ish or so Autococker. Its high Pressure. Im wondering if i can get it to Low Pressure?? Possible?? Who makes the best stuff??
-------------

|
Replies:
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 3:36pm
Yep! AKALMP, Shocktech, and Madman to name a few.
You can find most of them in review form http://www.pbreview.com/products/cat/113/ - here
AKA, Madman, and Shocktech all still make their valves.
You don't necessarily need a low-pressure chamber for the marker (a volumizer really) so long as you aren't firing a mini or micro 'cocker due to the fact that there is more than enough valve chamber room in a standard cocker to keep the flow up. You'll also need to change out your springs. AKA makes nice matched spring kits for your hammer and valve springs. Now, the fact that you have a pre-'99 means that there are some things that won't translate between your marker and a post '99 'cocker. The main things are bolts, and front blocks and banjo screws. You can change your back-block to a '99+ back block to use 2K bolts, and the front-block doesn't matter unless you're seriously desiring something like a light-weight block.
Now, that said, AKA also makes a nice heavy-weight hammer for lp-cockers. It's a brass hammer with a SS front which works really well for LP Mech 'cockers. The added weight helps the dwell factor giving you the lowest operating pressure possible. Not so good for high-cycle rates like you get with E-blades, but nice for mechs.
Hope that helps!
Oh, and get a good reg, AKA 2-liter or sidewinder. Good recharge rate and excellent LP characteristics.
EDIT:
You're going to need a valve tool as well.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 3:50pm
Thanks Tallen, Im pretty sure its Pre 99 but not totally sure. Not quite the Cocker Wiz but hopefully getting smarter. Ill get a pics up soon. It does have a Palmer Stab, Micro Rock, and Quickswitch, I'll Get pics soon.
-------------

|
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 3:53pm
|
Wut he said.
I wanna see pics, so hurry up! :P
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:15pm
Ok,Ok,Ok, Here they are well some.
pic of bolt says G-1??? Whats that mean

Front Block from Palmers gots it cheap!!!!

Main Pic

One last pic.
 So could I buy the AKA Valve with their Pre-2000 Delrin Bolt??
Serial # 49581
-------------

|
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:20pm
|
That looks more like a 2k1ish P-Block. It's a nice 'cocker by the way. As for G-1, I'm not sure. Maybe a model number. Also, I notice a low pressure chamber on the front pneumatics. I don't know what the internals are, but it looks decently set up for LP...
I'm almost certain though that it's post 2k.
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:25pm
Well D, I think the low pressure chamber is just a long screw but im probably wrong. But its not even close to the size they are now. Once again thanks for the Info. Ill take a crack at the valve as soon as i get the tool.
-------------

|
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:28pm
|
It could be an extended screw, as I have seen those before.
Edit: After looking, I think you're right. Probably just an extended screw to make removal easier.
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:30pm
So How hard is it getting a valve out???? Do i really need a tool?
-------------

|
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:40pm
I'd suggest it. You could probably find a tool for $5 over PBN or something. I think you can use an allen wrench (I forget which size), but it's pretty difficult...
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
|
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:49pm
|
Nice cocker. Ive been meaning to ask both you guys for a while, not to jack the thread, but if a heavier hammer will put a great increase in kick. Im looking at that AKA one as well as their valve and spring kits... but im wondering if the hammer would be worth it. Now that im here, do we have all the "hardcore" cocker people on the forum here?
Wait, I found my answer from when I first started with cockers.
tallen wrote:
Ahhhh 'cockers, us cocker guys are few and far between these days. Of course, you can still kick the crap out of people using a brand new ego with a mechanical 'cocker if you play well enough, I get the opportunity to do it on a weekly basis. Okay, enough reminiscing.
To up your cycle rate without going electro, you need to modify the front block components and the sear/hammer components as they (other than your trigger finger) determine how quickly your marker cycles. The biggest factor is the 3-way coupled with the hammer/sear. If you can get a good hammer with a FLAT lug (think stock hammer lug) and a smooth sear that will allow you to time the firing point on the trigger all the way to the front (think 1mm pull length) and then have a 3-way that can set the re-cock point to almost immediately after that, then you'll have made major leaps to upping your firing rate. After all, the less distance you have to pull the trigger, the better. It helps stop short-stroking and in turn, helps to eliminate double-feeds and chopped balls.
With the Hammer/Sear and 3-way out of the way, an adjustable LPR helps big time as well. Being able to up the pressure being put through the 3-way and into the ram gives you a faster cocking time (we're talking fractions of a second less, but it's still less) but it also means that if you DO have a ball only halfway into the chamber, you're definately going to chop it in half with higher ram-pressure. The other advantage to an adjustable lpr with a wide range of pressures is that you can adjust it so that you put less pressure through it and if it does happen to come up against a round only half-way dropped down the feed neck, it won't chop it, but will rest against it.
A new ram will help sometimes as well. If it is a shortened ram (like a palmer's) it won't have as much distance to travel. The LPR can help in this as well as you can adjust how far back the ram and back-block go via the pressure set with the lpr. Less distance needed to cock the marker and chamber a ball = faster firing rate.
Everything after those upgrades are pretty much semantics.
Now, my suggestions: 3-way Palmer's quick switches are nice, but touchy, you loose out on some of the LPR low-pressure range features as it needs a higher-pressure to seat the o-rings properly. I have this on my marker right now, but the hissing gets annoying every once in a while. Also VERY touchy. It has a low margin for error. An easier 3-way that I've had great luck with is the old shocktech "bomb" 3-way. You'll wind up having to reverse your 3-way line (front to back and back to front) when you put it on, but it's a nice one. Very smooth and a wide operational range. Very forgiving.
LPR: I've always liked my ANS Jackhammer II, but those are ancient by today's standards. Again, anything from Palmers will be good. So long as the pressure is regulated to stay the same even when firing fast, you'll be fine.
Ram: I've got a palmer's short-ram on my 'cocker. I like it. But again, it can be fickle. Most aftermarket rams are going to be the same though. So just shoot for the middle of the pack and you won't be dissapointed
Sear: Everyone seems to love the Belsales roller-sear. I can take it or leave it. I used to have an AKALMP hardened "skeletonized" sear on my marker. I wish I still did. It was crisp and didn't have as much trigger slop as my belsales does. The belsales is nice and buttery-smooth on the pull, but if you're looking for speed, crisp is the way to go.
Hammer/Lug. A nice standard lug is best all around. If you plan on upgrading to an EBlade, you'll need to have a flat-bottomed lug anyway. It won't work with anything else. And again, you get that "crisp" feel from the trigger. You know you're reaching/reached the firing point that way.
The best upgrade (which has little to do with cycling rates) you can do, however, is to get a matched set of springs (AKALMP "AKA") makes some good ones. The matched spring tension will give you much more regulated valve operation which leads to more consistent chronos and better groupings.
Alright, that's all for this novella of a post.
-tallen |
-------------
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection
|
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 5:09pm
Well, it shouldn't increase kick, as it's not a blow back. the hammer doesn't do a thing but strike the valve. The backblock/ram is in charge of resetting everything. If there is an increase in kick, it'll be minimal.
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
|
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 5:31pm
|
okay. I was just thinking, more moving wieght has to do something, but youre right.
-------------
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection
|
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 5:33pm
There probably will be some added kick, but it's still gonna be a lot smoother than a blowback.
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 7:22pm
No-kick really. I've found that if tuned properly, despite what weight hammer you have, 'cockers don't have any kick aside from what movement your hands put on it when pulling the trigger (Middle finger FTW!!!!)
As for the G-1, it's an OTP G-1 Bolt. It was one of the first to use o-rings around the channel hole to seal the bolt against the tube to create suction and prevent blow-back during rapid firing (back when Revvy's were high-end stuff)
That's definitely a 2K+ vert body, shocktech hinge frame, Dye Stickies, Palmer's stab, Palmer front block, and what looks like an ANS drop w/ on/off.
The pump arm and cocking rod are both stock, the ASA isn't from that body. You can tell from the mis-match of anno. You're missing your beaver tail. (get one before you whack yourself or loose your cocking rod)
IF you've got some extra cash to burn. I'd suggest an AKA pump arm (they're straight so there's no bending and thus, no lateral force placed on the bolt, cocking rod, or back block) change the ASA to a 11*, and learn to use a slider like a REAL MAN!!!!
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 7:49pm
So for a new bolt, If i should get one. I get one thats Post 2k. Right??? And ive been looking at the AKA for stuff. But i dont have money quite yet but after this weekend i should be good for cash. Also what springs are good??
-------------

|
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 7:56pm
tallen702 wrote:
No-kick really. I've found that if tuned properly, despite what weight hammer you have, 'cockers don't have any kick aside from what movement your hands put on it when pulling the trigger (Middle finger FTW!!!!) My 'cocker kicks pretty bad. Thats why im a little concerned about it. I still havent tried lowering my LPR yet, as I want to get in one full, good day of game before I start tinkering with my gun. I know all too well that the minute I start taking my gun apart and am waiting on pieces and stuff to come in, I get the opportunity to play, but I have to use a backup because the main gun is in pieces .
That's definitely a 2K+ vert body, shocktech hinge frame, Dye Stickies, Palmer's stab, Palmer front block, and what looks like an ANS drop w/ on/off. Im pretty sure that it isnt a shocktech hinge, it looks like a basic pre-'05 WGP hinge. Its the one that came on the '04 ProStocks, and im sure its been put on others. Also, its a system x on/off.
|
-------------
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection
|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 12 April 2007 at 11:42pm
hmmm, you may be right about the frame, I know you're right about the on/off.
Anywho. As for the bolt question that ekeboo's got, the p-block you have may make it a little tougher to use a '00+ bolt. My suggestion would be to see if anyone else at your field, or any of your friends have a bolt you can try to fit in. It may take pre-99 bolts due to the fact that the p-block brings the pin in closer. I really can't tell just by looking.
As for recoil Yomillo, the LPR is the biggest contributing factor. Most people crank it way-high thinking that the faster the back block snaps back, the better. Really, you want to hold the trigger with the marker de-cocked. Then slowly turn up the LPR until it pushes the block back to the point that the marker cocks when you release the trigger. Then give it a quarter-turn for good measure (and to ensure that you've got enough re-charge for those rapid-fire situations). Easiest thing to tune on a 'cocker.
Wow, this place is getting big on 'cockers lately! I'm so proud!!!!
Oh, and I'm going to go ahead and film myself doing some simple maintenance and timing to help those who care for it.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 12:20pm
Oh tallen i have always wanted an autococker, thing of beauty. Anyways on the bolt question. I found a person with an 02 or 03 vert cocker. The bolts were different. The pin hole was way off like by half an inch. So this makes it pretty sure that its a pre 99 right??
P.S. would really appreciate the Vid!!!
-------------

|
Posted By: daniero
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 1:16pm
Yeah, a vid would be great!
No thread jacking, I just finished putting together my 'cocker after checking if the 3 way orings were ok, I'll take some time on sunday to sweetspot the regulators. Any advice on sweetspotting the regulators? I need to set both inline and lpr... 
------------- Silver Invert Mini
Yellow 'Cocker
|
Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 1:56pm
|
tallen702 wrote:
No-kick really. I've found that if tuned properly, despite what weight hammer you have, 'cockers don't have any kick aside from what movement your hands put on it when pulling the trigger (Middle finger FTW!!!!) |
I've noticed that a LOT of people (myself included) prefer to shoot sliders with the middle finger. Is this a cocker phenomenon, or am just imagining it?
------------- [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/aag8s8.jpg">
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 2:00pm
Ok so heres the hammer spring. This sucker is hard very hard. and i just threw a gauge on the cocker and im running at 300 psi on the dot. But my velocitys is just barely under 290 and the velocity scew on the gun is alllll the way out. Any suggestions.

-------------

|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 6:39pm
what color is the valve spring? RED = High Tension. You use a softer valve spring (green or yellow) with that red spring and you're going to hit low 200's with a hi-flow valve.
___________EDIT___________
Sweet-spotting the reg is as simple as putting a stiff spring in the rear and a light one up in the valve, OR getting AKA matched springs. Then, with the reg all the way closed, start adding input pressure until you reach 200psi. Now, start firing with the IVG (internal velocity adjuster) all the way out, start turning the IVG in quarter-turns until you max out your fps. If the velocity hasn't changed after a few quarter turns, simply turn it back out until the velocity starts to drop again and find the sweet-spot with the IVG. By no means are you going to be high enough on the velocity to play yet unless you've got a very finely tuned Low-Pressure BEAST. Now. turn the reg up bit by bit until you reach the 300fps mark. At this point, the IVG and the reg are both optimal. To help with re-charge rates on lower-performance regs, you can give the reg 1/4 turn PAST the point where you hit 300fps and then back the IVG off until you are back down to the 300fps range. This will help keep shoot-down from occurring.
LPR sweet-spotting is as easy as starting with the lpr all the way down to zero (won't push the ram at all) holding in the trigger and turning the lpr up until your back block goes to the point where the marker cocks when the trigger is released. At that point, give the reg 1/4 turn more to take care of any possible re-charge issues and you're set.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 6:41pm
Meant to tell ya tallen, i finally went out and took down my LPR pressure.
-------------
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection
|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 6:46pm
How'd it work out Yomillo?
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 6:50pm
pretty well. Im amazed at how much quiter it is, and the kick is almost completely gone. Gunna move on to sweetspotting the main reg after I buy a tornado valve and AKA hammer, as well as a few more goodies hopefully.
-------------
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 13 April 2007 at 9:46pm
So Tallen, If I put in a AKA Valve. should i keep the red Spring or dump it. I'm kinda confused on what you just said. so just a tad more explaining please
-------------

|
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 7:06am
Hes saying that if you use a softer valve spring, you can keep the red hammer spring and probably hit the low 200's with the AKA valve. If you want it easy, just get the AKA spring kit that i believe comes with a new hammer and valve spring that are meant to work really well with the AKA valve.
-------------
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection
|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 12:24pm
^^^ What he said.
The reason you could use the red spring (stiff) with another nelson-valve based spring (yellow or green [med-soft respectively]) to lower the pressure is that it takes more energy for the softer spring to push against the stiffer spring to close the valve. The way my marker is set up currently with the AKA matched springs, if I short-stroke and only fire the marker, the valve will stay open indefinitely giving me great air-flow through the valve. Needing more energy to push the valve closed = more time for the valve to stay open = better flow-through. When you go LP, flow is king. You're using less pressure to push the ball down the barrel and achieve muzzle velocity, so you need more of a volume at that lower pressure. The term used to describe how long the hammer stays in the forward position, thus keeping the valve open, is called 'dwell' and is usually expressed in milliseconds. While you can't perfectly time the dwell in a 'cocker (well unless you have an MQ valve) like you can with an electro-pneumatic marker, you still have control over it and can make it do what you want it to.
Short of me getting a vid up in the near future (it'll probably be a little while. Need to get my digital camera back from the shop) see if you can't find a copy of the http://ww9.aitsafe.com/cf/add.cfm?userid=B4130302&product=PTI%20AutoCocker%20Tech-TRIX%20DVD&price=21.95&return=www.paintball-dvd.com - Autococker Tech-Trix Video for cheaper than what it is at that site. It will teach you everything you will ever need to know about timing and working on a 'cocker. Budd takes you through step-by-step with cut-away markers, animations, etc. It's about as entertaining as a 1970's science film, but it'll get you well on your way to being a 'cocker tech.
So, did that clear it up at all for you?
Ohhhh, and the GF's got her digital camera, but it only takes 1min vid clips, so I'll get some footage of my 'cocker dry firing to give you an idea of how fast a single-finger slider frame can get going.
__________EDIT__________
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/emd/308014093.html - Craigslist Scroll all the way down, very bottom, #67. $5 Beats the $21 they want on that other site.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 1:09pm
ok Cool that did clear most of the things up. I'll probably just get new springs when i get the valve and hammer. Thanks very much Guys
-------------

|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 1:58pm
Sure thing! VIVA LA REVOLUTION DEL AUTOCOCKER!!!!!
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 2:25pm
tallen702 wrote:
VIVA LA REVOLUTION DEL AUTOCOCKER!!!!! |
-------------
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection
|
Posted By: daniero
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 2:48pm
Arriba las autocockers!! 
(I hope to make it work tomorrow, I'll let you know)
------------- Silver Invert Mini
Yellow 'Cocker
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 5:11pm
HMMMMM. ( me just thought of something) My gun is shooting at 290 to 300 fps. Cant i just keep lowering my Stab. Its running at 300 psi right now. Do stabs run LP good or no? well ill find out.
-------------

|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 6:27pm
If it's got a LP spring pack in it, then yes, if not, then you need to pick one up from palmer's.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 6:27pm
Use http://www.moodypaintball.com/pages/tech/reg.htm - this to get the most out of your reg and find the best way to set velocity.
-------------
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 8:02pm
Well ive done some experimenting.The gun simply needs around 250 psi or more to operate at a good velocity. i cant go lower than 250 even if i do screw in the velocity screw a lot. So ill buy a valve and spring kit when i get more cash. I just spent a whole lot on some CP on/offs and Rails.
-------------

|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 14 April 2007 at 9:40pm
250's pretty darn good, Lowest I get mine is around 200-210 before it starts starving the marker for air. The thing to remember is that eventually the pressure gets so low that the bleed from the front pneumatics winds up starving the valve for air.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 15 April 2007 at 7:47pm
Im loven the new Sig Tallen. Just might steal it
-------------

|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 15 April 2007 at 8:25pm
Feel free! Actually, DeTrevni and I were talking about having him do an MS paint banner for the AC owners on here.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 15 April 2007 at 8:30pm
I could stick to the Che theme, but if anyone else has any ideas, shoot!
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
|
Posted By: daniero
Date Posted: 15 April 2007 at 9:21pm
Not good . I couldn't make my marker work.
It seemed as if it was ok with the pressure on the regulators to the lowest setting, but as soon as I start raising the pressure, it starts to leak from the lpr and the 3-way. Any suggestions?
As for the sig... I like the idea, if I can join you guys.
------------- Silver Invert Mini
Yellow 'Cocker
|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 15 April 2007 at 9:51pm
Sure thing man!
I'd give DYE and Palmer's a call. Either that, or pick up a new 3-way, but the Rock is covered under life-time warranty with palmer's, so get it fixed!
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: ekeboo
Date Posted: 15 April 2007 at 10:14pm
Ya thats the nice thing about palmers stuff is that it is covered. Love my micro and 3-way from them
-------------

|
|