yeah local shop

plus many (at least the ones near here) give you field membership for a year if you buy a marker there.

I say go online and find the best deal, its called capitalism, if you can't compete you dont deserve to continue business, and the consumers get the best deal in the end (in addition the shops around here...Long Island....are rip offs).

If you want to go to a local shop due to the deals/ packages (reduced field fees, free labor on repairs, etc), then go for it, its their method of competing against the lower prices of online and big box retailers. However, for a simple, idiot proof gun such as a tippmann it seems unnecasary to pay extra money for free labor in the future.

The support your local shop, on the basis of they are local and need your measly business to stay open is a flawed argument/ reasoning. It is almost as bad as go to field paint only fields b/c fields make their money off of paint sales.

It might be true that fields make their moeny off of paint sales, but it is a flawed business model. Its like saying, I own a gym, but I make all of my money off of bottled water. Each element should be able to support itself.

Yes, please, no one support you local field by buying equipment for 5%-10% more so that eventually there will be no organized places to play paintball, just megastores.  Awesome plan.

well i work full time plus weekends so i don't have much time to go out to local shops or fields, except to actually play

i ended up buying like 700 dollars worth of stuff from action village.   

not done yet either. gotta get my barrel and stabilizer.

just a retort for commander cool though

a lot of big market names make a lot of money from add ons, not their main selling point. like gaming systems such as ps3 and xbox 360.  the profit is marginal on the systems, it's all about the addons and such. my 2 cents. heh

Commander_Cool wrote: The support your local shop, on the basis of they are local and need your measly business to stay open is a flawed argument/ reasoning.

Yes and no.  I certainly agree that we shouldn't unnecessarily support inefficient economic behavior - but a selfish consumer might still choose to buy at a local shop, for a variety of reasons.  Local tech support is valuable, for instance.  Goodwill at the local shop is also valuable.  Perhaps the local shop also owns the local field where you play, and by buying at the shop you are supporting your field.

And so forth.  Capitalism isn't all about the lowest price.

It is almost as bad as go to field paint only fields b/c fields make their money off of paint sales. It might be true that fields make their moeny off of paint sales, but it is a flawed business model. Its like saying, I own a gym, but I make all of my money off of bottled water. Each element should be able to support itself.

And just like that you completely undermined your pro-capitalism argument.  This part makes absolutely no sense.  Back to capitalism and econ 101 for you.

netramakin wrote: Yes, please, no one support you local field by buying equipment for 5%-10% more so that eventually there will be no organized places to play paintball, just megastores.  Awesome plan.

Wow, I love your childish logic. Lets start tearing it apart:

1) You don't play paintball at a store, you play it at a field (thats okay though,... I know what you meant, since I mentioned fields too, and local stores and fields are usually linked). I do ask how the selling of markers at a big box retailer means there won't be organizes games or fields? Businesses adapt, and fields do not necassarily have stores.

2) My point is not to tell people to avoid local shops. Its that they shouldn't fund a local business soley because they are a local business. Doing so for some higher ideal is simply dumb.

3) I dont know about you, but all the stores around here are definetly maked up more than 5%-10%.

Island Paintball Supply: Vforce Profiler - 85.00

AV - 65.00

Yea, thats a big goddamn difference thankyou very much. I would much rather have the 20 dollars in my pocket than get ripped off at that store.

4) Now lets go to why I suggested action village, over a local shop. Local shop would be more money and you might get free labor or some other perk. However, tippmann markers are so extremely simple, and idiot proof, that you are probably better off buying the marker online given the money you save. That doesn't mean that buying at a local shop is a bad choice, it just depends on the circumstances.

Hellomister wrote: well i work full time plus weekends so i don't have much time to go out to local shops or fields, except to actually play   i ended up buying like 700 dollars worth of stuff from action village.    not done yet either. gotta get my barrel and stabilizer.   just a retort for commander cool though a lot of big market names make a lot of money from add ons, not their main selling point. like gaming systems such as ps3 and xbox 360.  the profit is marginal on the systems, it's all about the addons and such. my 2 cents. heh

That is true, and also in the case of video games, goes for the manufacturers as well. There is a parrellel in paintball, but most big box retailers sell very few upgrades instead selling cheap guns they can buy in bulk. Local shops however make alot of their money on gun upgrades and accesories, not on marker sales.

kickinwing2010 wrote: Ya, support your local shop for a couple of reasons one you may get some pretty decent benefits like discounts and repairs, and two you don't have to worry about being ripped off.

Yep I agree except with the ripped off part. There are some shotty owners out there.

Good stores will match internet pricing. So gather a list of 3 places online prices and then walk into the store.

I am going to say,... I wouldn't base my purchasing decisions on the comments left on a manufacturer's forum.

http://www.pbreview.com - www.pbreview.com

http://www.pbnation.com - www.pbnation.com

I suggest looking into ICD guns, and WGP Autocockers.

Commander_Cool wrote: Wow, I love your childish logic. Lets start tearing it apart:

You're going to tear apart a sarcastic one-liner?  I think we're all learning who the childish one is. 

Commander_Cool wrote: You don't play paintball at a store, you play it at a field

You're so much smarter than I.

Commander_Cool wrote: I do ask how the selling of markers at a big box retailer means there won't be organizes games or fields?

It was a general statement in response to your general statement:

Commander_Cool wrote: The support your local shop, on the basis of they are local and need your measly business to stay open is a flawed argument/ reasoning.

Obviously a 5% - 10% markup only, as I stated, wouldn't keep a shop in business.

Commander_Cool wrote: fields do not necassarily have stores.

More brilliance

Commander_Cool wrote: My point is not to tell people to avoid local shops. Its that they shouldn't fund a local business soley because they are a local business.

I never said that.

Commander_Cool wrote: Doing so for some higher ideal is simply dumb.

Yeah, higher ideals are dumb.

Commander_Cool wrote: I dont know about you, but all the stores around here are definetly maked up more than 5%-10%.

What I've bought from
Hogan's Alley: Tippmann A-5 - $199
                     Tiberius Arms TAG8 - $249.99
                     TAG8 magazine - $49.99

Action Village: Tippmann A-5 - $199 (0%)
                     Tiberius Arms TAG8 - $239.95 (5%)
SpecialOps:     TAG8 magazine - $45.95 (10%) [no mags on AV]

Commander_Cool wrote: Island Paintball Supply: Vforce Profiler - 85.00 AV - 65.00 Yea, thats a big goddamn difference thankyou very much. I would much rather have the 20 dollars

minus shipping

Commander_Cool wrote: Now lets go to why I suggested action village, over a local shop.

Note that I suggested Action Village, too.  I just said support your local shop if it's worth it.

Commander_Cool wrote: Local shop would be more money and you might get free labor or some other perk. However, tippmann markers are so extremely simple, and idiot proof, that you are probably better off buying the marker online given the money you save. That doesn't mean that buying at a local shop is a bad choice, it just depends on the circumstances.

Obviously

-------------

"I'm a riddle so strong, you can't break me."

Commander_Cool wrote: I am going to say,... I wouldn't base my purchasing decisions on the comments left on a manufacturer's forum. http://www.pbreview.com - www.pbreview.com http://www.pbnation.com - www.pbnation.com   I suggest looking into ICD guns, and WGP Autocockers.

You give the worst advice. Go away.

Justice wrote: Commander_Cool wrote: I am going to say,... I wouldn't base my purchasing decisions on the comments left on a manufacturer's forum. http://www.pbreview.com - www.pbreview.com http://www.pbnation.com - www.pbnation.com   I suggest looking into ICD guns, and WGP Autocockers. You give the worst advice. Go away.

How do you figure? Someone who says after doing my forum research, which can imply he read posts on this forum, supported by a specific manufacturer, and frequented by owners of markers made by said manufacturers, has biased information.

It thereby only makes sense to get opinions and information in possible markers from other locations, which might have a bias, but at the very least will present more options and a more varied opinion.

That is just logical, and I suggested to possible websites he could look into before spending $200.

As for my comments on markers, both WGP and ICD make nice markers, although ICD markers are rather under rated. I suggested he look into them because they are in the same price range, and will perform better than the A-5. They are however more complicated and require more maintenance than the A-5. However, anyone that is literate should be able to figure out how to use and maintain markers from those companies, although I concede they might not be the best choice for a new player, he should investigate all his options, b researching outside of the tippmann forum.

Commander_Cool wrote: What are you taking about? How does that undermine the pro-capitalism argument? I am refering to people who say you should go pay outrageous paint prices at your local field on the basis of thats how they stay in business. I said that if they can only manage to stay in business due to paint sales (since they do charge field fees, and sell various items), that their business model is flawed, simply put paint sales shouldn't be supporting the entire business. I think it is an inefficent and poorly run business if that is the case. The example I used to illustrate this is owning a gym and relying on bottled water to support the business, while this is extreme, i think it makes the point and is hardly in contradiction to my stance in capitalism. Any other business that can take in 20-35 dollars for each person that comes in their doors doesnt need to rely on another aspect of the business in order to survive. The main point I am trying to make is that you should make choices based upon what is best for you, the consumer. You shouldn't make you financial choices to help fund an inefficient and poorly run entity. It isn't a club house, a hang out, or a charity, its a business.

Different products have different margins.  The goal is to maximize overall profit, not profit on any particular range of products.

McDonalds basically gives their hamburgers away, but they make a killing on fries and soda.  Adobe gives away the Acrobat reader, to sell more copies of their fancier products.

In order to charge less for paint, a field would have to charge more for admission, or air, or chips/drinks, or whatever.  And while you might be willing to pay $50 to play BYOP, most people, apparently, would rather buy field paint.  Not to mention, of course, that fields have more carrying costs for paint inventory than stores, and that has to be accounted for somehow.

And your general statement that taking "20-30 dollars" off each customer should somehow automatically be enough to survive is just goofy.

If the business model were as flawed as you imply, then competition would have developed a better model by now, and that model would be winning.  Is a better model possible?  Probably, and maybe we shall see it soon.  But the FPO model isn't "flawed".

netramakin wrote: Yes, please, no one support you local field by buying equipment for 5%-10% more so that eventually there will be no organized places to play paintball, just megastores.  Awesome plan.

Um, you responded to my comment with a sarcastic post. Sarcasm aside, I commented on the points you made, that:

a) mark ups at local fields are so small it i negligable.

b) that if we stop buying from local shops, we wont have any places to play.

Both points I countered, although I might have started off rather condescending. I also did not realize you said action village earlier (although it does not change my opinion of you later comment).

a) mark up is more than you stated
b) there are times when buying locally is the better choice
c) fields and stores are seperate, yet interelated businesses, if one dies out, the other might survive. Either way both will evolve into a more practical business.

in addition, i was referencing the thought process behind the sarcastic and ill-concieved comment, not the post itself.

As for my $20 dollar difference... shipping is significantly less than $20, and for college students or younger players saving money is important.

Also most local shops can't meet internet pricing and won't try to. That is why they include perks like service or field memberships into their marker sales.

Commander_Cool wrote: Um, you responded to my comment with a sarcastic post.

Yes, I did.  What's your point?

Commander_Cool wrote: I commented on the points you made, that: a) mark ups at local fields are so small it i negligable. b) that if we stop buying from local shops, we wont have any places to play.

Yes, you did.  What's your point?

Commander_Cool wrote: a) mark up is more than you stated

Not at my local store.

Commander_Cool wrote: b) there are times when buying locally is the better choice

Um, which is exactly what I said.

Commander_Cool wrote: c) fields and stores are seperate, yet interelated businesses, if one dies out, the other might survive.

So I should not support the field/store so that the one that "survives" will be more efficient.  Another interesting view of your master plan.  I think I'll keep supporting them so I can keep both around, thanks.

Commander_Cool wrote: in addition, i was referencing the thought process behind the sarcastic and ill-concieved comment, not the post itself.

So now you know my thought process?  Wow, do you work for the Psychic Friends Network?  Could you get me Dionne Warwick's autograph?

Commander_Cool wrote: As for my $20 dollar difference... shipping is significantly less than $20, and for college students or younger players saving money is important.

The wisdom keeps flowing.  I said minus shipping and just because your local shop sucks doesn't mean they all do.  I'm not stupid.  If I see my local shop overpricing, I won't buy.  Most people won't.  I never said buy at your local shop at all costs.

Commander_Cool wrote: Also most local shops can't meet internet pricing and won't try to.

Mine comes pretty close (again, see my previous post).  And guess what?  If I need something right away, like on a game day, I'll have an option.

Tell you what?  Why don't we agree to disagree?  Don't support your local field.  I'll keep supporting mine in case you need some place to play when your local, inefficient field closes its doors.

netramakin wrote: Commander_Cool wrote: Um, you responded to my comment with a sarcastic post. Yes, I did.  What's your point? How about you take my whole quote and comment on it instead of isolated blurbs? Of course then you can't make yourself feel witty then by adding one liners to sentences taken out of context. Commander_Cool wrote: I commented on the points you made, that: a) mark ups at local fields are so small it i negligable. b) that if we stop buying from local shops, we wont have any places to play. Yes, you did.  What's your point? My point is your points were wrong, and I proved them as such. Commander_Cool wrote: a) mark up is more than you stated Not at my local store. Great, that doesn't mean every local store is like yours. Stop using it as the basis for your argument, and be realistic. Commander_Cool wrote: b) there are times when buying locally is the better choice Um, which is exactly what I said. Then why are you arguing with me and giving me sarcastic one liners? Besides its not what you said. You simply said buy from action village, and then attributed that concept to yourself retroactively. Commander_Cool wrote: c) fields and stores are seperate, yet interelated businesses, if one dies out, the other might survive. So I should not support the field/store so that the one that "survives" will be more efficient.  Another interesting view of your master plan.  I think I'll keep supporting them so I can keep both around, thanks. It has nothing to do with supporting one so it continues to exist. The point is if you go where you get the best exchange for your money, whether its for $$ or service, the other businesses will have to adapt. The worst case being a local store closing down, which would not affect fields. This contradicts your statements regarding lack of organized paintball establishments. Commander_Cool wrote: in addition, i was referencing the thought process behind the sarcastic and ill-concieved comment, not the post itself. So now you know my thought process?  Wow, do you work for the Psychic Friends Network?  Could you get me Dionne Warwick's autograph? No, but your thought process is pretty obvious. That if you don't support local businesses they will die, and then there will be no paintball related infastructure on a local level outside of low end gear sold at big box retailers. Commander_Cool wrote: As for my $20 dollar difference... shipping is significantly less than $20, and for college students or younger players saving money is important. The wisdom keeps flowing.  I said minus shipping and just because your local shop sucks doesn't mean they all do.  I'm not stupid.  If I see my local shop overpricing, I won't buy.  Most people won't.  I never said buy at your local shop at all costs. Does my wording or your wording negate the message? It is 65 dollars PLUS the cost of shipping. Who the hell says it is 65 dollars minus shipping? If I am shipping something and I give the cost of an item I discuss the additional cost of shipping, there is no minus involved. Regardless my point about costs in relation to student players is valid, so great job refuting that one hot shot. Commander_Cool wrote: Also most local shops can't meet internet pricing and won't try to. Mine comes pretty close (again, see my previous post).  And guess what?  If I need something right away, like on a game day, I'll have an option. Yea, thats why I said most. Since local shops are small businesses the prices vary tremendously across the board. Thats why I said do what is most beneficial to the customer, as to whether one should buy locally or over the internet. You even stated you agreed, so why are you debating this? I personally don't care about how your shop prices things, it is not relevant to the general discussion. I only used a local shop around here to illustrate different costs, It has already been noted that some shops are priced low to match the internet retailers. I have an idea how about you make a valid point instead of rehashing old facts? Tell you what?  Why don't we agree to disagree?  Don't support your local field.  I'll keep supporting mine in case you need some place to play when your local, inefficient field closes its doors. I have 2 outdoor fields, 3 indoor fields, 5-6 shops, all within a 15 minute drive from my house. I don't go to the over priced places I used as examples unless there is an overiding reason (special discount days, etc). The costly field (not the store, which is related to a different field), has an almost cult like following. Its sort of sad and odd how some people can become so extremely loyal to a place that they won't play else where and are willing to fork over $100 a case of paint.

Regardless, lets agree to stop arguing over a trivial matter. In addition do you plan on going to the PBLI Big Game in Coram, NY?

Clark Kent wrote: Commander_Cool wrote: What are you taking about? How does that undermine the pro-capitalism argument? I am refering to people who say you should go pay outrageous paint prices at your local field on the basis of thats how they stay in business. I said that if they can only manage to stay in business due to paint sales (since they do charge field fees, and sell various items), that their business model is flawed, simply put paint sales shouldn't be supporting the entire business. I think it is an inefficent and poorly run business if that is the case. The example I used to illustrate this is owning a gym and relying on bottled water to support the business, while this is extreme, i think it makes the point and is hardly in contradiction to my stance in capitalism. Any other business that can take in 20-35 dollars for each person that comes in their doors doesnt need to rely on another aspect of the business in order to survive. The main point I am trying to make is that you should make choices based upon what is best for you, the consumer. You shouldn't make you financial choices to help fund an inefficient and poorly run entity. It isn't a club house, a hang out, or a charity, its a business. Different products have different margins.  The goal is to maximize overall profit, not profit on any particular range of products. McDonalds basically gives their hamburgers away, but they make a killing on fries and soda.  Adobe gives away the Acrobat reader, to sell more copies of their fancier products. In order to charge less for paint, a field would have to charge more for admission, or air, or chips/drinks, or whatever.  And while you might be willing to pay $50 to play BYOP, most people, apparently, would rather buy field paint.  Not to mention, of course, that fields have more carrying costs for paint inventory than stores, and that has to be accounted for somehow. And your general statement that taking "20-30 dollars" off each customer should somehow automatically be enough to survive is just goofy. If the business model were as flawed as you imply, then competition would have developed a better model by now, and that model would be winning.  Is a better model possible?  Probably, and maybe we shall see it soon.  But the FPO model isn't "flawed".

Okay now I understand what you were refering to, and I concur. Perhaps saying the business model is flawed was incorrect. I suppose it is better to say the inability of ownership to adapt the FPO model, set prices well, or create a new business model that would allow them to stay competitive or turn a profit that is the issue. The field paint maintains the facility and we make very little money off of paintball argument comes into play. Mainly I feel many of fields are run inefficiently.

When are you going to realize paintball shops and fields do not make alot of money selling gear and what not. It's all about the paint, ask any store and or field owner and they will tell you that.

Put it this way, IMO if you call yourself a paintballer you should be supporting your local stores unless they are complete jack bags.

Making money is the bottom line for any business and again as stated above they make money from selling paint.

Commander_Cool wrote: Mainly I feel many of fields are run inefficiently.

I can certainly agree with that.  Many of the inefficiencies I see give me a headache.  But people that own/operate paintball fields tend not to be high-falutin' businessmen - they are just paintballers that seriously love their hobby.  If paintball catches on to where Wal-Mart starts operating fields behind their stores, you'll see some serious increases in efficiencies.

Best thread ever

Honestly, you take the best deal you can find. (a deal doesn't just have to mean cash)

Commander_Cool wrote: Blah blah blah

Ignore