STOcocker wrote: I think that ADD does not need any medication. I think that people can easily get along fine without it. I despise it when kids don't even try in school and then go to parents begging to get tested for ADD. These kids think that the adderall/whatever medication will magically make them better at school. Gatyrs case is one where I think that it is totally fine. He put in an effort to get by without it, but the little help just made it more manageable.

You think wrong, then. ADD, should the child actually have it, does warrant medication. Maybe not 400 mg a day, but for people that actually have ADD, adderall becomes pretty essential if one wants to be able to consistently work well.

Just so we are clear:

Kids with ADD who can't concentrate = blame ADD

Parenting pills and irrisponsible parent != blame ADD

(I don't really know anything about ADHD, so I can't comment)

ADD/ADHD is a real condition, but absolutely it is overdiagnosed.

If you really want to see how bad, get into the education system where seemingly every third child is labled as having some form of ADD or ADHD.

The problem I have with it, is its becoming such a mainstream problem that students are starting to realize the 'benefits' of such conditions. Its becoming an excuse for many of them. I've heard countless times "Oh, I didn't take my meds this morning, theres no way I'm getting any work done." Which is the biggest load of malarky that I've ever heard. When I was in school, I don't think there was anyone in my grade that had ADD, or if they did, it wasn't made a big deal of. Now, like I say, its become an epidemic and an excuse.

I wish it were that simple. What complicates matters is that over twenty years of medical study on the subject, a core cause for the problem has never been found. There's been plenty of symptomatic evidence to suggest a neurological imbalance in the brain ... one that causes people with a proper diagnosis to respond positively to ritalin, but we still don't know what is causing it.

Yes, I've been diagnosed with this 'disorder' since I was a small child, but in no way do I consider myself diseased. Now that I'm past puberty, I'm not nearly as hyper as I used to be.

As far as symptoms are concerned, my short-term memory is, comparatively to average, very low. I have an incredible ability to focus on single tasks, yet multitasking and shifting from one thing to another is rather difficult for me. I am taking ritalin at age 24 not just on the advice of my doctor, I have been able to see a remarable improvement on my ability to cope with day to day requirements and demands when on the medication as opposed to when it's worn off.

Does this mean that detrimental choices or behaivor on my part isn't my fault? Hell no. Like every other person who tries to live as a productive member of society, I'm culpable for my choices. It's a bit frustrating that I need a small amount of medical attention if I want to perform at my best ... a level that other people may be able to attain without the aid of medication. If there were a way to live my life more effectively without the meds and an ugly label, I'd gladly do so.

Again, I'm not saying I don't have a choice, I do, and I'm responsable for what comes of the results.  I've lived a good portion of my adult life trying to ignore the fact that when I was eight years old, a doctor told my parents that I was ADD, and that if I was placed in a public school, I'd get pegged with the lablel 'Learning Disabled'.

I am greatful that the descision was made to homeschool me, I don't know if my education was better or worse than a public education, and I refuse to judge either on the matter. It's over and I've moved on.

I've done very well, in fact. I had almost two years of college completed by the time I graduated High School. (Not GED, I have a diploma.) What I should have done was to finish my colledge education. I rebelled from my family, left home, joined the service and spent four years serving my country. I'm proud of that, but I spent that time ignoring certain weaknesses of mine, determined to deal with them on my own merit ... force of will. I suffered for it. Trying to keep up with other people was possible, but it was an exausting effort. What made it worse was the knowledge that I wasn't stupid, I've demolished every IQ or acheivement test I've ever taken, I had no excuses.

Now that I'm out of the service (honorable discharge, one full term of service). I've taken another look at the whole ADD thing in the hope that I might be able to make more of what I have ... get more milage out of all the effort I put out, and so far it's helped.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not 'cured' ... but it has helped me to even the score a bit. For a 'disorder' that is so closely tied into my personality, charachter and aptitudes, it is difficult, if not impossible to seperate them, but I'm finding it doesn't matter when trying to decide how to best go about my life.

This is a somewhat touchy subject for me, but rather than flaming at others for their positions on the subject, I feel it's better to simply state my views and background, and let people make up their own minds ... somthing they're going to do whether I post or not.

I'm too lazy to look up statistics, but I'm almost damn sure there are more prognosis' of add adhd per year here in the states then anywhere else in the world. If this is the case, I'd have to attribute it to how americans raise their children, with electronics. I know it's a real disease and I agree wholely with tae's comment, but it certainly doesn't help that when a parent is or isn't home the electric babysitter is right there to comfort little johnny.

Razgriz Ghost wrote: I'm too lazy to look up statistics, but I'm almost damn sure there are more prognosis' of add adhd per year here in the states then anywhere else in the world.

Probably true.

If this is the case, I'd have to attribute it to how americans raise their children, with electronics.

Thereby ignoring and bypassing statistics and scientific procedure?  Well done.

oreomann33 wrote: What some people don't realize is that ADD medication works whether you have ADD or not. Plenty of my friends buy it illegally to help them make it in school. Their grades get better, but does that mean they all have ADD?

The difference is legal ... as opposed to diagnostic ... I wonder why the FDA hasn't approved Methylphenidate to the general public? I've read somewhere that people are snorting the pills ground up ... getting a speed/coke like high off it.

**EDIT**

I thought this link to be interesting and relevant to the topic at hand.

http://www.onelife.com/edu/indiana.html - http://www.onelife.com/edu/indiana.html

Clark Kent wrote: Razgriz Ghost wrote: I'm too lazy to look up statistics, but I'm almost damn sure there are more prognosis' of add adhd per year here in the states then anywhere else in the world. Probably true. If this is the case, I'd have to attribute it to how americans raise their children, with electronics. Thereby ignoring and bypassing statistics and scientific procedure?  Well done.

I'm saying look at how we raise our children and then try and tell me that it doesn't at least marginally contribute to the amount of add adhd diagnosed children are here. I know it isn't all of the problem but it definately doesn't help. Sorry I posted yet another opiniated view on this contorted ass world. I didn't mean that it was pure electronic babysitting that caused add adhd.  

Razgriz Ghost wrote: ... look at how we raise our children and then try and tell me that it doesn't at least marginally contribute to the amount of add adhd diagnosed children are here.

Ok.  It doesn't at least marginally contribute to the amount of add adhd diagnosed children are here.

My statement is exactly as substantiated as yours - that is to say not at all.  Feel free to speculate.  Seriously - feel free.  But you shouldn't package it as something else.

Come on are you for real? Here's the issue with this godforsaken place everyone here knows exactly what the other is saying but just wants to be difficult so the play retard and act as though the other person is saying IT IS 100% THIS WAY AND THAT IS THE WAY IT IS!!!!1!!!

I was stating what I FRIGGEN IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII would contribute it too, you don't just turn on a tv and walk away from your kids and expect them to listen to every single word you say when you say it. I'm sorry if you don't agree with the validity of my statment, your right it has no validity whatsoever but I don't give a flying rip, I think that it doesn't help to throw a kid in front of a video game system to keep him quiet end of friggen story.

Razgriz Ghost wrote: Come on are you for real?

Very much so.

I would venture that:

1.  You have no medical training.

2.  You have no psychological training.

3.  You have not reviewed the literature on ADD/ADHD.

4.  You are not a parent.

5.  You have no meaningful experience raising children.

6.  You have not reviewed the literature on the impact of television on children.

7.  You have not reviewed the literature on the impact of video games on children.

8.  You have no other relevant experience or knowledge whatsoever on this point.

Yet, despite the above, you repeatedly insist on declaring that "OMG TV is bad for kids and give them the ADD!"

That is not only rank speculation, but it is completely unfounded and completely random.  It is absolutely not clear that TV/video games leads to ADD, or is even a significant contributor.  The matter is just a tad more complicated than that.

Like I said - feel free to speculate, but don't pretend that it is more than that, since you don't know what you are talking about.

It's not a matter of hating the place and or not being able to handle my own

It's a matter of people insisting on playing stupid, to have a reason to flame out people, you all know that most of what people say here is opinions, I even said that I was too lazy to look up pure statistics on add so don't you dare try to attack me for no reason.

Razgriz Ghost wrote: Come on are you for real? Here's the issue with this godforsaken place everyone here knows exactly what the other is saying but just wants to be difficult so the play retard and act as though the other person is saying IT IS 100% THIS WAY AND THAT IS THE WAY IT IS!!!!1!!!

Okay, you love this place. With open arms and butterflies. It's the warm sunshiny feeling you get in your heart.

But Clark didn't dance around the subject, he in fact takes the subject heads on.

Clark has always, and in this thread, gone head on to disprove someone else's view, even if it is an opinion. Getting upset that he is correct doesn't make him bad, it just forces you to think a different way or maybe research before you post. It's okay to debate against an opinion, especially if the opinion has no legitimate backing.

Hm.

Here's the thing.  I wasn't playing dumb.  I - honestly - read your (razgriz') posts as repeatedly stating a conclusion about the causes of ADD, and specifically not as stating an intentional speculation.

It is one of my lifelong pet peeves when people state speculation as fact, and I read your posts as doing exactly that.

If in fact you were intending merely to speculate, then my reaction was incorrect.

However, I just went back and reread your posts.  If those were intentional speculation, then you seriously need to reconsider how you state your speculations.  You use awfully strong language for "speculation".

So you've missed the point, plus the definition of the term. Anyone can have an opinion, some people believe black people are a lower life form. They have no proof, and I bet you would argue against them until you are blue in the face, because it is your opinion that they are wrong. Opinions are never certain, but not because there is absolutely no evidence to support it. If you want the opinion to matter, then you have sufficient backing to making an actual educated guess. Then, maybe, there won't be so much flaming.

I never said you can prove an opinion wrong. I'm stating that if you're stating an opinion with no factual basing, in a debate forum, then you deserve what you get. You can have opinions of all sorts, but don't cry when it is shown that the opinion is of very little importance. Clark didn't come out and state that he was 100% wrong, he stated that he had no actual ability to make a claim the way he did.

Debates are two or more sides, with opinions, hopefully backed with informative material that doesn't waste people's time to read.

Dune wrote: Thread hijack complete.

Some of you are of the opinion that people who have been diagnosed with this 'disorder' aren't different, they're just taking a medical excuse for their shortcomings ... and for the drugs, I have one question.  Where do we draw the line? People with OCD have problems ... is their medical treatment or label just an excuse? Perhaps dyslexics were just too lazy in school to bother learning how to properly read. Why do we bother treating Depression as a medical problem? What is the actual cause of Schitzophrenia? The list goes on ...

I'm not saying that ADD/ADHD is overdiagnosed ... it may be. It may be that it used to be underdiagnosed in the past. I am in no position to make a personal opinion on that either way ... I can only speak for myself, and you can't tell me that I'm normal ... and that I just have to put more effort into my life. If the problem were simple willpower alone, I would be the effing President by now, things are never as simple as they appear ... or as they feel ... especially when it comes to matters of the brain.

The determining factor for these cases ... from what I've seen and read ... has been years of medical research, not all of it in the right direction. They don't make these things up, not in the medical community. (In the classroom? I wouldn't know)

I'm no expert, but from what I have read, there is a specific reason for treating kids (and adults) with ADD with Ritalin (I am not knowelgeable about the other ADD meds). While Methylphenidate (Ritalin is just a brand name) does have a stimulant affect for everybody ... I repeat, yes, it does have some benefit for anyone who takes it ... the brains of people who have been properly diagnosed with this condition respond differently. From what I understand (which is not the complete picture, I'm no Doctor) is that for people with ADD, certain parts of the brain are overactive. For some reason Methylphenidate actually has a calming effect on some of these overactive parts.  Why is this? I don't know ... and from what I have read ... neither do the Doctors. The fact that a stimulant has a calming effect on some people's brainchemistry is a mystery to medical science at this point, but I beleive it is one of the core reasons ADD is treated as clinical disorder as opposed to a charachter defect. There is real scientific evidence that points to somthing working differently in the brain for these people, but, as much as I wish it was different, that evidence is still yet to be completed.

Hades wrote: What do you expect? It is spring. Prime mating season. We are hoping to attract the e-ladies.

Yeah, Clark stopped putting out.

Honestly? It's been good to get out and discuss this, get your blood up a bit and honestly think about what you're doing and what you beleive. I appriciate the opportunity to have the debate. My last job had mandatory physical excersize ... but I don't know if it helped me any ... go figure, and point taken Hades.

I guess I might sound like I'm defending the legitamacy of ADD with emotion ... and, well, I am. This thread did touch a bit of a nerve, good debate or no. It took six years of convincing before I'd even consider seeing a doctor for this, and another six months before I was willing to try medication. It's hard to keep an objective view when somone starts discrediting a part of my life that took that much time, (and money ... it sucks to spend money when nothing is wrong with you physically). So yes, I'm biased, but heck, I'm willing to admit it, and I would like to think that I'll try to keep an open mind, listen, and participate in the debate rather than attacking others because of my emotions.

Oh ... and Dune?  Here's a cookie.

Yum.

Actually c4 I have agreed with most of what you've said. Although there still is that spring time influx we get every year.

c4cypher wrote: Cool, I just wasn't sure where you were trying to take the thread, so when I don't have anything intelligent to say, but I still want to make a statement about what somone is saying, but I'm not sure what ... I go for a random thought or pic. The cookie was for the threadjacking rather than your position on the subject, no real flame intended.

Yeah, if I can dish it out I should take it as well.