“God blessed them and said to them, ‘Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.’”
- Genesis 1:28

Those were the marching orders that God gave to mankind the day he created us, and ever since we have done all we can do to accomplish this goal laid out before us, and with the settling of the Americas by both Europeans and American Indians, we have now accomplished this task more than 5,000 years in the making. But it was not accomplished by just those who believe in God, but by non-believers as well. This is because there is a need, an insatiable desire in mankind to push the limits off our abilities and reach out into the unknown, and settle it. With our original task accomplished, we now ask, what’s next…… it’s the universe.

We now must include this galaxy in our goal to spread humanity far and wide; we must reach out to the planets and then the stars. Terri form them, subdue them, and fill them with humans. The universe is ours; all we have to do is grasp it.

Let us turn to the ever encouraging words spoken by the greatest sponser of space exploration in American History, John F. Kennedy;

“So it is not surprising that some would have us stay where we are a little longer to rest, to wait. But this city of Houston, this state of Texas, this country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them. This country was conquered by those who moved forward--and so will space.”

He continues;

 “We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

It is for these reasons that I regard the decision last year to shift our efforts in space from low to high gear as among the most important decisions that will be made during my incumbency in the office of the Presidency.”

And what are those other things? What next great task after the moon is there for mankind to accomplish? Mars is the answer! Mars is where man must go. Mars is what Man must tame! And to those who ask why, the answer is found in what Kennedy said to those who asked why we must go to the moon. Why must people climb Everest? Why must we break records? Not because it is easy, but because it is hard! Because it brings out the best in Mankind, and the best in this country.

This is why either this current President, or the President to come, must make the same commitment to reaching mars as Kennedy made for us to get to the moon. The last 30 years, since we stopped going to the moon, have been the longest that this country has remained idle in its near 400 year history.  Since the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth, this country has pushed forward, expanded, and become the greatest nation on earth.  However, we cannot hope to maintain such a title if we remain idle much longer.

                                        “If not us, then who?  If not now, then when?”
                                                                -Robert Zubrin, father of the “Mars Direct” Plan.

reifidom wrote: The next generation of spacecraft is in the works, and about time.

no kidding

Personally i dont think it will happen, not in my life time anyway.

I think I understand why the space program exsists, but things like this drive me nuts, there is no need to go to another planet in my eyes, its not like there is any resources there we could use, and if were looking for a place to inhabit, how about we try the countless square miles in the south, the desert, or even the ocean, all of which would be much much much much easier to inhabit then mars.

although it would be nice and safe over there!

just because something is pointless dosn't make it hard, or a challenge

what are we going to do mine over there, then send it back to the earth a year and a half and a couple billion dollars later?

sorry if i seem arragont, i just dont understand

(im on old ie, i got no spell check, :-P)

Glassjaw wrote: FROG MAN wrote: just because something is pointless dosn't make it hard, or a challenge what are we going to do mine over there, then send it back to the earth a year and a half and a couple billion dollars later? sorry if i seem arragont, i just dont understand(im on old ie, i got no spell check, :-P) We are going to use our resources, and eventually destroy our planet.  Why not have a backup plan?

where are we going to get the resources and money to support life on mars if are planet gets destroyed? mars is not self sustaining, like earth

FROG MAN wrote: I think I understand why the space program exsists, but things like this drive me nuts, there is no need to go to another planet in my eyes, its not like there is any resources there we could use, and if were looking for a place to inhabit, how about we try the countless square miles in the south, the desert, or even the ocean, all of which would be much much much much easier to inhabit then mars.

Eventually we will need a new planet.  Mars may not be that planet, but it is the closest one, and therefore the best one to practice on.  It will be too late to start a space program when we suddenly realize that we need a new planet right NOW.

Also a matter of diversification.  Best way to ensure permanent human survival is to establish as many independent bases as possible.

Deserts are just another place to live.  Mars is a new opportunity.

sorry, I disagree ramb,

if we are starting to see are planet getting destroyed, we are already to late, the amount of money, and resources and time it would take to set up a self sustaining colony on another planet, is farrrrr out of our reach. I think we should worry about prolonging the life of earth, then maybe we can get the time to do it.

call me a pesamestic, but i just dont see it happening, i hope im wrong though

Glassjaw wrote: FROG MAN wrote: Glassjaw wrote: FROG MAN wrote: just because something is pointless dosn't make it hard, or a challenge what are we going to do mine over there, then send it back to the earth a year and a half and a couple billion dollars later? sorry if i seem arragont, i just dont understand(im on old ie, i got no spell check, :-P) We are going to use our resources, and eventually destroy our planet.  Why not have a backup plan? where are we going to get the resources and money to support life on mars if are planet gets destroyed? mars is not self sustaining, like earth There are plenty of other planets, let alone galaxies aside from Mars.  And where do we get resources?  Uhh...we start researching and trying now?

this isnt star trek, its physicaly impsossible for us to get to another galaxy unless we start a conoly on a space shuttle

FROG MAN wrote: if we are starting to see are planet getting destroyed, we are already to late, the amount of money, and resources and time it would take to set up a self sustaining colony on another planet, is farrrrr out of our reach. I think we should worry about prolonging the life of earth, then maybe we can get the time to do it.

My point exactly.  We can't wait until we see the planet getting destroy, because then it will be too late.  The resources needed to set up a self-sustaining colony on Mars are out of reach NOW, but might not be out of reach when we need it, if we don't wait.

Going to Mars is proactively attacking a future problem.  That's a good thing.

Clearly we should also do what we can to prolong life on Earth as much as possible.  No doubt.  But eventually we will have to leave - why not start preparing now?

FROG MAN wrote: this isnt star trek, its physicaly impsossible for us to get to another galaxy unless we start a conoly on a space shuttle

Actually, Star Trek may not be that far off.  There are a variety of very interesting scientific hypotheses floating around that would allow for wormhole-style travel.  We are just starting to begin to understand the functioning of space and time, and shouldn't write off the possibility of future knowledge that would fundamentally change our reality.  We shouldn't limit ourselves to Einsteinian physics.

But that aside - if a colony on a spaceship is what it takes, then that is what it takes.  Eventually we will have to leave Earth.  And if that means that the entire human race will spend a few thousand years on a spaceship looking for a new home, then that is what it means.  That sounds hard - we better get cracking on it right now.

this all seems so far beyond what we know, yet the end of earth (as we know it) seems to be coming so fast. I just cant see it happening.

probably more realistic just wait till 90% of the worlds population dies and start again, lol

We don't know what is impossible for us to do in space, although right now it is impossible for us to go to other galaxies, it might be possible in the distant future. However, that should not concern us right now, we still have our galaxy to explore, and boy is it big! Mars is just the first place we should start.
Yes placing colonies on other plannets is the best means of ensuring the survival of the Human species, but it is not the main reason we need to spread out into the cosmos. We need to simply because its there, because it forces us to streatch the limits of our ablitys and technology. We as humans, and especialy as Americans, need new frontiers, new oportunities, to explore, and to settle. It's a need that is engrained into our deepest being. It's the reason we explore our oceans, the reason we climb our mountains, and the reason we settled the west.
Us reaching into the galaxy is our new "Manifest Destiny."

thats more poetry then reality

Often poetry can inspire reality.

But also, what do you think inspired people to settle the west, or even to come to America in the first place? Its somthing in our blood as Americans, we need a frontier to move out into, to conqure.

MT. Vigilante wrote: Often poetry can inspire reality. But also, what do you think inspired people to settle the west, or even to come to America in the first place? Its somthing in our blood as Americans, we need a frontier to move out into, to conqure.

what have the states conqured?

Darur wrote: FROG MAN wrote: this isnt star trek, its physicaly impsossible for us to get to another galaxy unless we start a conoly on a space shuttle Its not quite that drastic.  Read up on the theory of special relativity.  All you would need is a spacecraft traveling near the speed of light, which isn't that far out really.  Time aboard the spacecraft would slow down drastically, possibly even enough for a trip to be made in a few generations.  Of course that depends entirely on how fast the space craft is going and how far it has to go.

we might aswell just go back in time and stop global warming

to reach "almost" the speed of light, you need "almost" infinity force, and are mass would "almost" reach infinity aswell.

also, acording to einstein, after reaching the destination at that speed, even tho it may have only felt like 5 years, much much more then 5 years would have pased on earth.

FROG MAN wrote: MT. Vigilante wrote: Often poetry can inspire reality. But also, what do you think inspired people to settle the west, or even to come to America in the first place? Its somthing in our blood as Americans, we need a frontier to move out into, to conqure. what have the states conqured?

! First, our ancestors caim to this contenent from all over the world, faced brutal winters, starvation, plauge, and war, and somehow survived to built thirteen colonies from nothing. Then those colonies banded together to fight and eventually defeat the most powerfull military force on the plannet. Then we formed a new nation, survived a second war with Britton, and turned our our attention westward. We then expanded, pushed the limmits of our frontier, untill we had reached the pacific ocean, and had added 37 new states by the 1950's. In 1903, we liberated mankind from an existance traped on the ground when Orval and Wilber Wright invented the Aeroplane. We fought, and were the deciding factor of two world wars. We were the first and only nation to send men to the Moon. We have sent more probes to more places in this solar system than any other country and expanded the boundries of mankind's knowlege. We have conquered alot.

usafpilot07 wrote: The question is, are there moral or ethical dilemmas in doing the same thing to another planet(however lifeless it appears) that is one of the basic reasons we'll have to leave ours?

Assuming no life on Mars at the moment, how could there be a moral question?  I feel no moral obligation toward a rock.

we cant even life on earth without oil and fossil fuels, yet starting life on mars is not that far out of reach...

sigh

edit, and might i add we still dont even know if the ice caps exsist, they have actully no physical evidence.. kinda sad

What's that! Down at the south pole, it...it....looks like....ICE!

Actually, its frozen hydrogen, but what is the main ingrediant in water, hmmm.
And we can get the oxegen from plants we bring thier which will thrive in the co2 rich atmosphere.

usafpilot07 wrote: It's not just frozen hydrogen, if I remember correctly. I'm pretty sure that the northern ice cap is frozen CO2, where as the southern tip is believed to be a layer of from hydrogen, laying OVER a large expanse of frozen water.

frozen CO2? pfff that means no paintball without nitro. thats like eating an oreo without milk. not worth colonizing

I know its a joke vig, but since the summers get up to 80, if we were to heat the planet so the winters become a livable, -40, wouldnt the summers be then 240?

usafpilot07 wrote: FROG MAN wrote: I know its a joke vig, but since the summers get up to 80, if we were to heat the planet so the winters become a livable, -40, wouldnt the summers be then 240? No. Most of Mars's temperatures have to do with the heat of the sun. There is no atmosphere to protect it or regulate the planet's weather/temps. The entire seasonal system is based on the angle it's axis is facing in relation to the sun.  Without our atmosphere, our planet would behave much the same.

so your saying if an atmosphere was created, either naturaly or artificial not only would the planet warm, but also the range of temp from winter to summer would become much less drastic.

makes sense, but if regulating a planets temp was that easy, we wouldnt be crying over here on earth

FROG MAN wrote: I cant help but think, Ice caps melting, an atmosphere being created, the entire planet changing.... isnt there going to be like hurricanes and tidal waves for a couple of years? haha

Well There whould'nt be tidal waves because there is'nt that much water, but actually there is already powerfull dust storms that sweep over the entire plannet. From what I understand, warming up the plannet whould actually put a stop to those storms.

FROG MAN wrote: makes sense, but if regulating a planets temp was that easy, we wouldnt be crying over here on earth

You are right - when we have the science to terraform Mars, we could (and presumably would) use that same science to terraform Earth.

Not easy, but all theoretically possible.  We just need a couple of centuries of research to figure it out.  Better get started.

Evil Elvis wrote: MT. Vigilante wrote: Why can't we do both at the same time? People have different skills, some are born to be rocket scientist, others (or at least I hope thier is somone out thier like this) are born to invent a cheap hydrogen car.  Because we dont have Billions of Dollars laying arround. It's called Prioroties. Plain and simple if we dont get our own planet squared away what hope will any other Terraformed planet will have?

Besides, what you are saying basically is that we need to divert 100% of our reasources to fixing this plannet, ok, what are you doing hear? Get off your computer, quit your job and go invent somthing that will fix this plannet. 

Im not trying to bring you down or anything, all I am saying is that putting everything we have into fixing this plannet, while not a bad thing, is just not feasable either. Besides, what are you saying we do? Force rocket scientists at gunpoint to start focusing on inventing hydrogen cars?

lol, i know, i was just pointing that exact point out, lots of people think transportation=cars

Evil Elvis wrote: No dude, I'm not talking just about the enviroment, but that would be up there. not for tree hugging reasons, but those are valid points. There are so many more pressing issues such as medical and exploring our own planet. Every Penny spent on Mars Missions while nice its a waste of cash. Cash that could be better spend else where such as infrastructure, healthcare, defence, education, hell figure a way to lower costs of everyday life.

That just goes back to what I said before; what are you gonna do, force rocket scientists at gunpoint to go explore the ocean, or change thier carreer's to medicine? Those areas are just not what interests most of them, that is why they are building probes instead of submarines.

Besides, alot of the technology developed for space exploration can and has been tuned around to benifit life hear on earth. So if we just stop, then our progress will be slowed.

many people do things that dosnt interest them so they can support there own life or help other people

if i could i would snowboard and play video games for my career, so can the goverment give me lots of money to do that,

also spending money on somthing, then indirectly getting results that help, seems....... stupid?

FROG MAN wrote: many people do things that dosnt interest them so they can support there own life or help other people

And that is fine, but what about the ones who don't want to do anything but explore space? What are you gonna do to stop them?

On a totaly unrealated subject; I'm curious, does Canada have a space program?

they can explore all they want, but i wouldnt want to support them with my taxes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_space_program - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_space_program

research the canadian arm

Yes, stoping funding them wont stop them now that the private company has entered the space race.

What do you say we agree to disagree since we live in to different countrys. You folks in Canada can stay here on earth and make it better, which I will fully support. As for us Yankees, were going to Mars, and then, Alpha Centari.

P.S. Our space agency has a way cooler logo cus we got a funky swoosh in ours.



We had a C.S.A. once, but we didn't like them so we got rid of em. But they swore that one day they whould rise again. Havn't seen em since.

i really dont think my nationality changes anything.

theres is many many many americans who think the same way as me.

edit, also, i dont mind the discussion because thats what it seems like were having, no arguing or fighting or name calling, just talking with differnt opinions, its nice for a change

FROG MAN wrote: i really dont think my nationality changes anything. theres is many many many americans who think the same way as me. edit, also, i dont mind the discussion because thats what it seems like were having, no arguing or fighting or name calling, just talking with differnt opinions, its nice for a change

Ive been thinking about the nationality thing since the start of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that nationality does matter as to support for space travel.

Think about the history. Generally, Canadians have never really cared too much about our space travel.