I think that in woodsball the position of sniper is a justified position.  I say this because a sniper in paintball is different than a real life military sniper.  The paintball sniper does not have the capability to hit targets from range like the military sniper, but he still values the art of concealment and field craft, thus giving him sniper like qualities. So instead of running away from the "S" word, I say we recognize its legitimacy, not in a literal view when refering it to paintball but in a paintball view.  It's all relative.

I'm sorry for feeding the troll, but there's one aspect that drives me crazy. This right here:

A-5R/T wrote: but he still values the art of concealment and field craft

THIS IS WHAT EVERY PAINTBALL PLAYER IS SUPPOSED TO DO! Even the speedballers. Kthnxbye.

BC: I sure would like some pie.

Kid, ya aint gunna win this debate... I tried one time, and lost horribly, they'll change your mind real quick.

Snipers in paintball do not exsist, just face it, sure some kids are sneakier than others, but that doesnt make them a sniper. We all use stealth, so that has nothing to do with being a sniper, we all use sniper like qualities, hell the guys in speedball with tall red flashing guns that shoot 20bps per second have "sniper like qualities" they hide, they try not to get shot, and they know how to use cover.

On another note, I think we should make it a new rule, if you start a sniper debate. We should just shoot you sniper style.

__sneaky__ wrote: Kid, ya aint gunna win this debate... I tried one time, and lost horribly, they'll change your mind real quick.

I believe my very first Tippmann post was on snipers. Must be the n00b initiation.

There ARE snipers in paintball.

Look at DeTrevnis post in another thread. He explained how at a few big games people use "Sniper cards", and a ref calls them out.

DeTrevni wrote: I'm sorry for feeding the troll, but there's one aspect that drives me crazy. This right here: A-5R/T wrote: but he still values the art of concealment and field craft THIS IS WHAT EVERY PAINTBALL PLAYER IS SUPPOSED TO DO! Even the speedballers. Kthnxbye. BC: I sure would like some pie.

Its funny every person who makes a thread like this always says the same thing. They shoot from a concealed point ect, but they dont realize that everyone does that. Thats why there are bunkers to hide behind.

Dont you guys just love how within their first 10 posts, every noob posts about snipers.

Roll Tide wrote: You seem to be frustrated a lot lately, DeTrev. Hot pies vs cold pies. This is a tough decision.

>.>

<.<

O.o

Ghost rider you never answered my question.

This is actually argued better than usual.  I've read many of the "S" threads and haven't really cared to have an opinion on the subject before, but if someone wants to suit up in some ghillie (and use it effectively; I wouldn't know how), find positions that are difficult to reach quickly by the enemy (instead of using distance, using natural terrain as a buffer), take out high valued targets (in a scenario) with a marker that's quiet and therefore difficult to pinpoint the location of and then get away clean...I'd let 'em call himself a sniper.  Flame away.

Roll Tide wrote: You seem to be frustrated a lot lately, DeTrev. Hot pies vs cold pies. This is a tough decision.

Hot pies, with.... Ice cream on the side.

stratoaxe wrote: [QUOTE=A-5R/T] They're not referring to you as a noob in paintball, they're referring to you as a noob on this forum. And by very definition sniping in paintball cannot exist-

It's really hard to grade a noob in paintball isit the number of times the've played?  Their equipment?  Their tactical knowlidege all three?

I know you will be suprised but yesterday I went to my SECOND GAME

I have my A-5 but I'm very knowlidgeable of tacticts and I have OK eqiupment (a stock A-5 and JT Flex 8 camo) and I was put with the noobs because I was so good! lol I was better than about 3 of the guys who play everyweeked

I Judge by playing with them and see how much paint they use (if they use alot theres a surefire way of seeing how good they are) but I would agree that a sniper thread is a new player that started it.

thanks to everyone for not flaming everyone!

Do you like your flex 8 camo? Some people say it doesn't give good ear and neck coverage.

Tolgak wrote: SSOK wrote: There ARE snipers in paintball. Look at DeTrevnis post in another thread. He explained how at a few big games people use "Sniper cards", and a ref calls them out. Most of the people that advocate the idea of sniping haven't been to scenarios. How do I know this? They never argue the point you just mentioned. Fact is, most people want to be snipers because of the idea of picking people off with longer range and higher accuracy. They can't get that, but they still want to be a part of this "elite" group, so they justify the name with other reasons. The reality is, the only sniping that can be done is by sniper card (which isn't really like sniping because it can take a hell of a lot of time for a ref to reach and eliminate the targeted player), or by raising the velocity. And you can't raise the velocity because it's hard to trust players not to shoot others within 100 feet of you, besides the fact that your paint is way more likely to chop.

I have not tried sniper cards, but IMHO, it seems horribly boring. If sniping was possible, it wouldnt be a ton of fun either, but better than yelling "Hey Ref! That guy in the ACU's is OUT!"

Although adding beach! or SON! to that would make it funner.

Click here http://www.specialopspaintball.com/positions/asn.asp - http://www.specialopspaintball.com/positions/asn.asp  To end this debate

Brihard is right dude, Spec Ops uses the fact that newbs dont really know all that much, and their overzealousness to their advantage, which is a brilliant market strategy, I'll give em that, but that doesnt mean they're right.

and to the "snipers" who just call in people with their dumb little sniper card things or whatever, come on, thats not sniping, sniping takes skill, thats a fat kid sitting in a bush who is to lazy to get a job to pay for a gun...

That question is the true reason why i started "The S Word" topic.

People are very sensitive of the subject because the people arguing for it are convinced to the point where they blindly follow it. It's ignorance. The very nature of this forum is to dispute ignorance. It's what we do.

Now, for my $0.02, I wrote this in another thread.

I wrote: Okay. Here we go. Now, I should inform you, and please read and think about what I have to say (as I'll probably be one of the nicer ones to say it), that "sniping" in paintball is not a valid role. In fact, it could hurt your team greatly. Here's why. To be an effective sniper, you need to be able to accurately pick off high-value targets (HVTs) beyond the effective range of cover fire. Paintball guns, no matter the barrel length, shoot the same distance (excluding the Flatline/Apex) so there goes that. What about accuracy? Accuracy is not in the barrel, though it does help. It's paint to barrel match, and having a longer barrel can be problematic. For standard markers with a poppet valve, longer barrels actually decrease efficiency. You don't need anything longer than 14", and everything past that in no way helps your gain. The Flatline or Apex cannot be used to snipe because at the ranges they can achieve, accuracy is deminished, reducing your chances of getting out of there in one piece by taking out your target in one shot. What about the "definition?" You know, the one that says sniping is just hiding and shooting people from a concealed location? Well, I'd like to point out that this is what EVERY woodsballer should be trying to do. This is not truely sniping. But SpecOps says...: Hate to break it to ya, but they are a company. They are trying to make money. They created many of these positions to sell more gear, not to be your friend. That definately doesn't mean all the positions they created are bad. It's just one can't really snipe. What about being silent and sneaking up on people? At the ranges paintball is played, no person, even with an illegal silencer on his marker, can be quiet enough to be that sneaky all the time in paintball. Sure, you can get lucky, but probably not all the time. Now how is being a sniper bad for your team? It takes you out of the game. If you are camping in a spot, you are essentially hoping someone will walk by. This is a LOT LESS effective than hunting for your enemy and supporting your team, and decreases the likeliness of you getting an elimination (not kill...).

I wanted to paint up this big loud cr last night cause it was ***ing me off but I didn't and now i'm wishing I did but whhat if he had a gun and shot me for real that woud've sucked

stupid huligans driving so fast by my house like 3,000,000,000 miles an hour faster than the limit

scrumsguy wrote: I wanted to paint up this big loud cr last night cause it was ***ing me off but I didn't and now i'm wishing I did

Yes, next time, pull out your marker and shoot them so you can end up on the news and paintball can take a big black eye.  That'd be sweet for all of us.

It's only a sensitive subject because of the ignorance behind it and the constant bickering about it.

I understand your point, but ultimately you have to answer for the massive flaws in the very idea behind a paintball sniper. You've taken a very few individual components that go into being a sniper (i.e. camoflouge, hiding, waiting, laying, whatever) and ignore the really important ones (training, a weapon that's actually capable of accuracy at long ranges, and the ability to take out a target in one shot).

And, as others have already pointed out, you can load up your camo, your ridiculously expensive marker, strap on your paintball knife, get out the shotgun, and let loose with the paintball flamethrower, but in the end sitting in one spot waiting for someone to walk by really defeats the purpose of playing paintball.

So my next question is: If the sniper doesn't exists in woodsball do any positions exists in woodsball?

First you gotta answer my question-how do you compensate for the lack of long range equipment, and an inability to take accurate shots?

And to answer yours, any position can exist in woodsball if you have the proper equipment/skill to undertake that position. Which is why there is no paintball sniper.

Tolgak wrote: Brihard is full of win in his assessment of Spec Ops. Quoting that company is like quoting the Conservapedia. It's full of bias and lies. SSOK. The way sniper cards in scenarios works, is you call a ref over to you and he radios the closest ref to the target. Each card you have represents a single shot. It is taken away from you after the shot and in some cases, logged in as a used card. It's the closest thing we can get to really sniping, unless you want to try to create a round that can withstand a 450 fps shot out of a paintball gun, be deadly accurate, create no more of a welt then regular balls, and to get refs to watch players with this sniper equipment.

I know how sniper cards work.

A-5R/T wrote: So my next question is: If the sniper doesn't exists in woodsball do any positions exists in woodsball?

Yes.

A-5R/T: Read my above post. I can go into further detail on each point if you want. In my opinion, SpecOps's other positions are logical, and can help the team. The dagger is like a front man. He moves a lot to find a good location to hit the other team. The hammer is like a backman, he moves to where he is needed, and lays down volleys of fire to protect and cover the dagger.

It's just the sniper and ghost flanker positions, while appealing to the wannabe heros, are unpractical and detrimental to your team. If you can single-handedly pull off a flanking maneuver, all the more power to ya, but there is no way you can be successful enough to actually have that as a position.

We're not to crazy about SpecOps around here, because they seem to advertise the "You can't be good at this position unless you buy our stuff" mentality. True fact: a "speedball" electro would be a better woodsball gun because it's going to be fast, light and the higher end models are reliable. You don't need to give into "woodsball gun" mentality. Blues Crew, a renowned scenario team, dressed in all blue and used Pimps and the like, if I'm not mistaken.

IMO the positions for woods ball would be very close to the positions in speedball. You will have a team captain, a front man(light rifleman), a middle(medium rifleman), and a back(heavy rifleman). You might all be wearing ghille suits, but that just means that your group can hide better and make a good ambush. Now this all depends what strategy you use and how many people are on your team. In woods ball sometimes you dont have a position really your just part of a group. You will somewhat act like you are a front/back/middle, but in woodsball you dont know where the other team is and how many groups they are in. What I normally do in woodsball is we split up into 2 groups and have one go down one side and one go down the other. When you hear or see the other team you set up an ambush and when they walk into it you eliminate them. You dont really have positions if you use an ambush because your all just shotting at the group. Well thats my 2 cents.

Edit: I couldnt spell split

Dye Playa wrote: Mack wrote: I made pancakes for breakfast.  From scratch.  They were good.  I cooked up some quarter sized ones so my grand daughter could have finger food. Your a grandpa?

Twice.

Roll Tide wrote: Hot pies vs cold pies. This is a tough decision.

Hot FTW. (With ice cream, whipped cream, and syrup.)

A-5R/T wrote: Click here http://www.specialopspaintball.com/positions/asn.asp - http://www.specialopspaintball.com/positions/asn.asp  To end this debate

Wow, that destroyed whatever minimal credibility the original poster still possessed.

A-5R/T wrote: O' Canada. LOL. I would just like to know why people are so sensitive when it comes to the concept of the "paintball sniper".  I never said that a paintball sniper can shoot farther than other players.  Second of all, spec ops is smart enough to realize that players enjoy playing woodsball as a sniper. Why have they produced so many mods aimed at these players? Because there is a market for it.

Okay, I was wrong.  The above post was the real credibility destroyer.  (Or at least significantly more effective at it.)  Consider the bold portion.  Essentially, it says there must be snipers because people buy the gear.  It doesn’t consider that Spec-Ops produces these mods to make money.  Using this logic, I could sell people two F-Bomb grenades, a battery-powered propeller beanie and a set of instructions that say the following:

• Put on beanie.
• Turn on beanie.
• Prepare F-Bombs for use.
• Hold an F-Bomb in each hand.
• Hold arms out horizontal to ground.
• Turn on (optional) VOX radio.
• Run toward opposing team.
  

Wow, I’ve just proven there are bombers in paintball.

A-5R/T wrote: So why doesn't any one answer my question? or should i just start a new thread.

Yes, you should definitely start a new thread . . . on another forum.

(Or you could try using an effective argument to prove your point.  Something that utilizes logic as opposed to "Spec-Ops said so."*

*The president of Iran says that the CIA was behind 9-11 and the holocaust never occurred . . . doesn't make it true.

A-5R/T wrote: Spec ops marketing campaingn was created because of the paintball snipers.

Just give it up, we dont care that you believe in snipers, we really dont, we just dont want to have to feel like our own I.Q. is going down because of your ignorance.

in before lock

Cake > Pie

Well guys it has been fun debating the "S Word" with you for the past couple of days but i'am content to let this subject die. 

I realize that an individual can not go out onto the field and expect to play one way the entire time if that individual wants his/her team to win, and that includes "snipers".

I started this topic because in the first 10mins of being on this forum it was evident that people really felt strongly about it.  So i just wanted to try to see why and get some in debth reasoning behind it.  Thankyou for all of your opinions on this, it has been fun 

P.S. you will never see the "S word" coming from me on this forum again

A-5R/T wrote: Well guys it has been fun debating the "S Word" with you for the past couple of days but i'am content to let this subject die.  I realize that an individual can not go out onto the field and expect to play one way the entire time if that individual wants his/her team to win, and that includes "snipers". I started this topic because in the first 10mins of being on this forum it was evident that people really felt strongly about it.  So i just wanted to try to see why and get some in debth reasoning behind it.  Thankyou for all of your opinions on this, it has been fun  P.S. you will never see the "S word" coming from me on this forum again

trust me, with the people here, just because you raise your little white surrender flag, they're just gunna keep beaten the crap out of the dead horse we call "Your side"

i want an ice cream sunday

Sorry for staying on topic. But my personal opinion and 2 cents. Please don't burn me at the stake for having a differing opinion. I know how much the regulars on this forum hate that

I kinda agree that there can be snipers in paintball (though not in the sense of engagueing targets at distances of 800m). Sniping doesn't always occur at long distances, keep that in mind. Also recon has alot to do with sniping. So if a paintball player strays from the crowd and observes the oponents and helps other players manuver and attack them, then he is performing the duties of a sniper.

Dictionary term of the word sniper:

snip·er     https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fsniper">   (snî'pər)  Pronunciation Key 
n.  

Evil Elvis wrote: LOL the Dictionary definition, the Forum Sniper Last stand defence.

Yea the dictionary can be very helpful in some situations. So going by the definiton alone, you CAN SNIPE IN PAINTBALL. Check and mate!

Fyi no I don't consider my self a "paintball sniper" infact I don't really consider myself anything other than a paintballer. I just hate it when people are closed minded, ignorance is bliss.

brihard wrote: Funny you should mention that... The vast majority of infantry emplyed in reconaissance roles/units aren't snipers. Just because snipers conduct reconaissance, doesn't mean conducting reconaissance makes you a sniper.

No ****... Never said that being a scout makes you a sniper. I just said snipers often times do a lot of recon work; ever herd the phrase: "snipers are the eyes and ears of the company" (or something like that, not quoted directly). Also I know a guy currently serving in the 10th Mountain Div. who is a cavilry scout, so I know the diffence between a sniper and a scout. Scouts usually take point in the squad during an operation, snipers usually work in two man teams without the luxury of immediate assistance of other friendly forces.

Sorry for rant.

EDIT, fixed my naughty language for the yunger bunnies

You write entirely too much...

But I must say, I'm impressed.