i was thinking, since we all can agree, tippmanns are exactly like tanks. theyre indestructible, have lots of firepower, and are very LOUD. maybe tippmann can start making an internal mod with like hammer padding, polishing kits, and any other kind of stuff that might quiet it down instead of us having to home make it, which can result in the added materials to tear or fall off since its not made for that kind of use. i believe this could be very popular since tippmanns would make very nice sniper markers if they werent so loud. also maybe they couuld somehow make a flatline with bores in it to quiet down the gas release a little. anyone else think this would be nice?

jesseat956 wrote: hell yea itd be nice i would love a supressor for my tippmann, hey do u think this would work? http://www.paintballtipps.com/silencer.htm - http://www.paintballtipps.com/silencer.htm

it does work, but its VERY illegal (though i wish it wasnt, it can be punishable by up to a $250,000 fine and/or 10 years in jail)

nuke: im not saying its hard to do it ourself, im just saying i wouldnt trust it because the materials are not meant for being used like that. i wouldnt want bits of glue and felt/rubber in my gun if im not 100% sure it wont fall off during play

• There are some very quiet barrels available commercially
• The End Game series barrels
• J&J Ceramics
• Armson Stealth series (have to find them used though)
• Also, longer barrels tend to be quieter than shorter barrels of the same brand because they allow extra expansion room for the propellant behind the paintball.  (Reduces the "pop" upon the ball leaving the barrel.)
• The type of porting also affects how noisy the barrel is.  (For quieter barrels you want a lot of porting spread out along about the last half of the barrel. I have a post about new paintball markers in New Players which goes more in depth on this.)
• Installing a heavier duty buffer O-ring around the drive spring and guide pin will reduce operating noise somewhat without interfering with marker operation.
  
• Another possibility is replacing the drive spring with a weaker spring from an after-market kit. 
  
• The stock Tippmann velocity adjuster only controls the speed of the gas release, it does not control the amount.
• If a marker is using more gas than needed for each shot, the extra gas exits after the ball leaves the barrel.  This is both inefficient and adds to firing report.
• Instead of a spring replacement, the same effect can be gained by adding a rear velocity adjuster.
• Finally, on 98s, a Rocket Cock will quiet down the noise from the marker's internals.

To own a suppressor:

1. You must be 21 years of age or older and legally able to qualify for the purchase of a regular handgun (meaning no felonies, violent misdemeanors, dishonorable discharges, etc.)

2. N/A

3. Get two 2"x2" passport photographs taken. Attach one to the reverse side of each of the two copies of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) Form 4. These photos typically cost $5 to $10.

4. Complete a small section on the reverse side of the BATF Form 4 that declares why you wish to possess the item.

5. Take the two copies of the Form 4, with pictures attached and your section completed to your local law enforcement agency (city police or county sheriff). Also take the two FBI Form FD-258 fingerprint cards we will give you. Ask the agency to officially take your fingerprints. This will usually cost $10 to $15. Also ask to have the chief of the agency complete his/her section of the reverse side of the Form 4. This merely attests that you are not wanted locally and that the official knows of no law which will be broken if you are approved by the government.

6. Put the two copies of the completed Form 4's, the two completed fingerprint cards and the money order of $200 in an envelope and immediately send it to the BATF office in Chicago, IL.

7. The BATF will first remove the money order and examine the paperwork for completeness. Assuming the paperwork is complete , it will be assigned to an agent, who will have a nationwide FBI background check performed on you. Once you pass this (all legal folks over 21 pass it), the BATF will mail you back a certified copy of one of the Form 4's you sent them. On this copy will be a stamp that looks like a postage stamp. This is a Federal tax stamp indicating the transfer tax is paid.

8. When you receive this Form 4 back with a stamp on it (about 90 days after you mail it in), complete a BATF Form 4473. You should immediately make several copies of the Form 4 and carry one with you at all times you have the product. Be sure to put the original in a safe place.

Once you have legal possession of the Class 3/Title 2 item you may not take the item across state lines unless you notify the BATF in writing before doing so. We have these forms available for a small fee. You are not asking for their approval but, instead, merely letting them know you are taking a Class 3/Title 2 item across state line(s) and when you will depart and return.

You may not loan this Class 3/Title 2 item to anyone! You may not store this item at a friend's home who has access to it. This is a restricted distribution item. To possess it requires (at the very least) an extensive background check. You are obligated by law (and common sense) to prevent unqualified people from gaining access to it. You may let others use the item if they remain in your physical presence.

sniper n. A skilled shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.

ALSO

sniper n : a marksman who shoots at people from a concealed place

Hate to break you bubble but there ARE paintball snipers.

Not the extreme long range snipers like you see in the movies, but any player that can conceal thenselves well enough to pick off an enemy without being spotted IS a sniper.  In fact the definition says NOTHING about being able to shoot further than other people, just being able to pick off your opponents from a concealed position. (hopefully without giving away YOUR position with the cannon loud sound of a flatline)

With a good silent barrel, like a well ported 21" and all the upgrades and mods you can use to quite your marker you can snipe quite well.

Now if a flatline did not soud so much like a CANNON it would be MUCH more use to a player wishing to fire from a concealed position without giving away their EXACT location as they pick off the back man of a group that has just passed their hidden location.  Um, yeah, that guy would be the sniper.  Shooting from a concealed position, picking off enemy team members.

They are QUIET, QUIET, QUIET!!!!  That is the benifit.  Not MUCH else, but IMPORTANT, if you want the quietest shot possible.  They are also helpfull, with thier longer length, in being able to stick the barrel out through thicker brush.  The thicker the brush you are hideing in the better concealed you will be.

(SORRY about the matching post, I made this one first and I HAD to use part of it to defend my sniper fellow getting bashed over there.  SOME people can't seperate that "movie LONG range sniper" from the reality of what being a SNIPER means.  SNIPER does NOT = LONG range, only shooting from a concealed place)

The same reason I do not wear combat boots.  They make more noise!

The longer barrels, ported properly reduce noise a LOT!!!  Try a few and see for yourself. 

I have a GREAT 14" progressive barrel.  It is just as acurate as my 21" but it is about twice as loud.  I also have a 8 1/2" stock barrel and IT was twice as loud as the 14".  I have HAD a flatline and it was just as loud as the stock shortie. (they BOTH sound like cannons) I SO wish there was a way to display this online.  I can honestly say that I have PROVEN this to EVERYONE that I meet in person.  I ALWAYS carry my 14" progressive just to demonstrate.  People are simply AMAZED at how SILENT the 21" makes the shot.  I was even accused of not having co2 in the tank once.  I had to actually SHOOT the guy in the chest to make him believe it was not a trick. (I made him put his mask on first of course)  He never heard it comming from about 50 feet away.

At anything over 30 feet my 98C is so silent that if I were to shoot a ball beside your head you would hear the whizing of the ball through the air LOUDER than the sound of my marker.

I have done everything I can to reduce mechanical noise produced by the internals of my 98 (almost, I still need to go low pressure, I hear tales that it is even QUIETER) and the 21" barrel almost completely disaspates the muzzel sounds.  My 98 no longer makes the classic paintball marker "pop", you only hear a "puff" sound and the whizzing of the ball.  When you finally hear MY shot, what you will be hearing is the splat of it breaking on your chest and then it is simply too late to do ANYTHING but take the walk.

As a sniper I want to get my shot off as acurate as possible and still remain CONCEALED, even if I am only 50-75 feet from 2 or 3 enemy players.  The quieter my marker, the better my chances of making more hits before I have to relocate.

As a sniper, once you are LOCATED, the jig is up, you are no longer CONCEALED and you are no longer a sniper.  You MUST get the heck out of there, get LOST and reposition yourself in a NEW location where you can conceal yourself.  You move quitely, you shoot quietly and as acuratly as possible with EVERY shot (a "wild" shot RUINS your day, one of the reasons I would not use a flatline.  More "wild" shots on average no matter what you do).

Now if being quiet is not important to you, go shorter, 14" is FINE. Get one that matches the paint you prefer (THIS is even more important that length) so you will be as acurate as possible, but leave the "gimick" barrels alone.  They are just not as CONSISTANT as a good straight barrel.

As I said in regards to your other sniper argument.

DeTrevni wrote: ALL paintballers "shoot from a concealed location." Even speedballers. What do you think we do? Stand out in the open, hoping to "Matrix" anything that comes our way? Dictionary null and void.

Try again.

RedDragon1313 wrote: They are QUIET, QUIET, QUIET!!!!  That is the benifit. Agreed, longer barrels are generally quieter than shorter barrels of the same type.  (We were going to have issues if you tried to claim longer barrel equated to more accuracy or additional range.) . . . They are also helpfull, with thier longer length, in being able to stick the barrel out through thicker brush.  The thicker the brush you are hideing in the better concealed you will be. . . . Very true; I knew a young man who used to use his 18" barrel this way quite often.  Shooting at him was a truly frustrating experience.  (Well it was for those of us holding his attention while someone else came in behind him.) . . . The same reason I do not wear combat boots.  They make more noise. . . . Incorrect; combat boots do not make noise.  I have a couple of sets in my closet and I never hear a peep out of them.  The person wearing them makes noise if he doesn't know how to move properly in the terrain he is traversing.  (A real sniper would probably know this.) . . . Get one that matches the paint you prefer . . . so you will be as acurate as possible . . . Good advice, paint to barrel match is a significant factor in accuracy. . . . but leave the "gimick" barrels alone.  They are just not as CONSISTANT as a good straight barrel. The gimmick barrels can be just as accurate, but it usually involves more work and, occasionally, additional expenditures.  However, my personal opinion is as follows:  I don't like the Apex and, while I like the Flatline, I prefer to use it for suppressive purposes.  If I'm planning on a quiet elimination with the firing of minimal round, I use my 12" J & J or the 14" End Game.

I can't believe this turned into another sniper debate, but since it did, I will throw out something for everyone's consideration.

The "someone who shoots from a concealed location" definition comes up every time this debate does.  The problem with this, as De Trevni wisely pointed out above, is that it is too broad.  Using this definition, I see no way to differentiate the uber-leet paintball sniper that ignored unimportant targets to spend half a game crawling into the perfect sniper position from which he can alter the momentum/direction of the entire game with a single shot if only the right target happens by from the first-day noob who hid in the same bush the game before because he is afraid of getting hit and only wants to shoot at targets that pose no risk of return fire.  It also does not explain the difference between forum member usafpilot07* when he makes it into the snake unseen and someone hiding in the flag bunker as a last ditch defender.

Mack wrote: There is only one usage of the word sniper that provides a close match to what normally happens in paintball play.  Consider the insurgent snipers that ambush the troops on a daily basis overseas.  They usually attack without warning from a concealed position.  They normally have no range advantage as they are equipped with standard assault rifles.

I think you are beginning to get a handle on it now!  "Ambush Sniper" IS very accurate.  No one ever claims "Long-range sniper".

There are a FEW additional factors to the paintball sniper to consider.

First IS equipment.  A good sniper does NOT use the exact same setup as everyone else.  His equipment DOES give him an advantage.  A paintball sniper will usually be found with both the most camoflaged and most silent marker he can build.  Additional lenght is often found to provide added stability when shooting prone or to assist in shooting from thicker cover.  Speed is NOT an issue to most snipers.  Silence and reliable accuracy are more important to them when they build thier markers.  The sniper will often be wearing the best camo he/she can afford as well. You will not find bright red anodized aluminum tourney electros or flashy logos on a sniper.  No "set of 8 140rnd pods" rattling on thier backs.  It is not that their gear gives them ANY range or accuracy advantage over what someone else builds, it gives them a TACTICAL advantage due to invisibility, silence and reliability.  Since there is NO posibility of those "movie long shots" you must work in reverse.  Get your target closer to you without them seeing you.

Second is PRACTICE.  The GOOD sniper practices being a sniper.  No FORMAL MILITARY training nedded, but a LOT of practice IS needed.  The sniper practices moving through the terrain making less noise than the average player.  Moving without drawing attention to themselves.  They also practice spotting good ambush locations, NOT just good cover or a place to bunker but a place where the other team will either pass you or get close to you allowing you the best "ambush".  It is NOT just looking for a bush to hide under (even though that works sometimes).  They practice patience, waiting for the best shot and AIMING carefully to get it with as few rounds as possible(hopefully just one!).  Snipers never shoot ropes of paint or track thier target with paintballs.  They aim carefully and wait until the shot is good. 

It is more about a style of play than "long range shots".  NO ONE in thier right mind claims paintball snipers make 300foot shots.  What it is about is stealth, patience and set-up.  It is a style of play where the player attempts to use the terrain to set up the best ambush, to go unseen instead of sprinting from cover-to-cover, bunker-to-bunker, marker blazing, attempting to use "accuracy-by-volume".  

I would NEVER say that one style is better than the other.  On a well ballenced team you NEED those guys who spray thousands of rounds per game from flatlines.  They are GREAT at drawing attention, keeping guys bunkered and picking off the fools who don't know enough to keep thier heads down.  You need those guy that play "speedball style", running from bush to bush, keeping the enemy on the run.

Now just because I PERSONALY do not play either of those styles I never say they do not exist.  I DO NOT say that they are all just snipers that are too stupid to move slowly, or that they are all just snipers that have such bad aim they have to spray painballs by the hundreds just to hit anything.  They are the riflemen, taking the fight to the enemy.  They are the heavy gunners, mowing down the enemy or keeping them pinned down.  And just like snipers, setting up the ambush to thin out the enemy hoard before they get to the rest of the team, or spending hours slipping up on the enemy camp just to take out a general, they DO exist.  It is just one more style of play.

I usually just read the posts here and try to glean some knowledge, one thing I learned was to stay out of the sniper debate (which I'm going to break here) but isn't there a position in an infantry squad called a marksman which would be closer to what is being described than a sniper?

Correct me if I'm wrong but a sniper is usually some guy with a spoter who has a large rifle like a Remington 700 or whatever, and they sneak around hiding and such ideally eliminating each target with one shot while remaining unseen.  A marksman is a guy in the squad with a standard issue weapon but with some optics attached.  Like the M-16 being standard issue, then one or two guys in the squad being the marksmen would have M-16s with a small scope or sight of some kind, they can usually land a better shot with the optics and can provide accurate fire support to the squad providing some of the benifits of having sniper support but without actually having to have a sniper attached to the squad.

Thus, I would assume this infamous "paintball sniper" to actually be filling the role of marksman since they are using the same standard issue technology (a paintball gun limited to 280fps or so) with possibly some better sights or modification to provide accurate fire support.  However I can also see the case for the other definition of sniper since it has been used to describe an enemy unit hidden in some spot to surprise the enemy.  Also, if I saw a paintball "sniper" and possibly spoter in full ghillie gear with optics and what not, although I would find that hard to play in and boarderline foolish if you position was compromised considering the dynamics of paintball, I would assume them to be filling the role of sniper.  They obviously have no range advantage but since they are emulating and taking the tactical approach of sniper what else can you call them.  Although not for me since I am impatiant and like to get up close and scuffle it out, if it works for them, hey, good luck to them, and let them play "sniper".

Something to think about: In WW2 the allies used Springfield '03s, M1 Garands and Enfields.  An allied sniper would have an accurized version of one of these guns with a scope.  They used the same cartrige and the same gun giving them no real range advantage as far as the projectile but a further useful range advantage due to their better sights and training.  Some prefered open sights and even carried a secondary weapon incase they got up close.

Okay, I don't think I really even understand the point I was driving at but hopfully you got something new out of what I provided

Just because many people think it is so does not make it so, as before all but a few thought the world was flat and the sun went around the Earth, even after proving it false they stood to their theories for a great length of time.

A sniper is probably going to remain as still as a statue to have good follow through and to not be noticed by the recieving party since they are imediatly vulnerable to return fire and have to remain hidden to stay alive.

Their guns until recently have been no better than the standard infantry weapon with a few modifications.  If we go back in time a bit to use the WW2 standard since that is what I have studied the most, there are exceptions but the other guns were either the same or similar caliber and considering they stick with their own countries' weapon the English were issued Enfields, an Englsih sniper would have an Enfield with a scope.  The Americans 1903 or an M1, American sniper a M1 (rare) or a 1903 with a scope.  The Germans, a 98K, German sniper a 98K with a scope.  The Russians a Moisin-Nagant, Russian sniper a Moisin-Nagant with a scope.  So logically if the standard paintballer has a 98C and one has a 98C with a scope how does that not make him a sniper?  Considering it is not one of those guys who only played paintball a few times in their backyard against some soda cans on a saw horse and then bolted everything possible to their gun.

I know all paintball guns shoot the same distance and such but, so did the infantry weapons of the WW2 era and before, and by your guys logic that would make them not a sniper?  In the Civil War muskets which were smoothbore and fire balls just like a paintball gun, and on top of that leave a huge cloud of smoke and were much louder, I believe were equiped with telescopic sights and were used with some degree of combat effectivness.  Would these not be considered snipers?  I know the ranges and format of paintball doesn't make for effective "sniping" but I think the tactics can be applied in certain scinarios to great effect.

Originally I laughed off the "sniper" guys from before as "noobs" or whatever, but after thinking about it with logic I can't see how they couldn't be considered snipers or marksmen, those who do it correctly that is.  To adress the post earlier of the new guys just clinging to one bush and the other guy with his camo tarp or whatever, they were obviously new players.  The new guys I play with are always slow to advance for some reason and sometimes I lose my half my team way back the beginning since they decided to crawl the whole way.  They are obviously inexperienced and shouldn't be considered as an example.  I have played matches where the other person was wearing only woodland camo BDUs and they managed to wedge themselves in between a tree with a bush next to it making himself nearly invisable.  He was waiting there and I was walking twords his position and I got shot from the far left of my peripheral vision just to give you an idea of the orientation.  I called myself out but looked around to see if I could tell where it came from.  The only reason I saw him was because he got up and moved.  As far as I can tell there are those who use sniper tactics in paintball.  Using discipline in stratagy and success is based on eliminating important targets with the least amount of shots possible while maintaining stealth.  As in real life there are very few that can do this right, I can't even do it that well and stopped trying a while back, but unfortunitly for paintball those that fail will be back the next round goofing it up again.

Sad isn't it man.

According to the children who attempt to boost their own ego by stating snipers don't exist, YOU don't exist and therefore must not have been the one to get those players out!

[sarcasim]

I wonder how so many players were eliminated in a game by a nonexistant player?  Perhaps all those hits were just caused by paintballs falling from the sky?  Since you don't exist because you used sniper-like-tactics and have your marker set up for silence then you must not have made any "one balls" and since accuracy is only obtained by volume, likewise you could neither exist nor could you have made any eliminations, not with ONE BALL.  Not to mention the fact that after you took your "one shot" everyone MUST have known not only your EXACT position but rained down paint on you like no tomorrow, getting you OUT adfter EVERY one of those hits. Maybe your marker was out of air and someone else made the hits?  Perhaps they were all just such noobs that they shot themselves since YOU don't exist when you use tactics like that YOU could not have goten them out right?  Not to mention the fact that as EVERYONE knows NO ONE would EVER walk by where you chose to set up, snipers just head off to a place where NO ONE will be comming and just wait until the game ends right?  Oh wait, you don't exist so you couldn't have done that either.  Possibly you never even left the starting point and fell asleep and DREAMED you took out other players?

[/sarcasim]

Anyway man, good work out there!  I still need to get up the cash to go low pressure myself for that added silence! (wife, kids, home and car payments kind of keep the "painntball" cash at a minimum) My 98C is so silent already that at over 30 ft or so the sound of the ball whizzing through the air is louder than the shot, I can't wait to see what low pressure will do to the mix!  Keep on snipeing and watch the non-believers TAKE THE WALK as they wonder where the balls are comming from!  Must be falling from the sky since YOU don't exist man!!

• Name calling/insults - green font
• Random ranting - pink font
• Facts/science - blue font
• Logic - would remain in black font

• Original poster
• Childish stuff (i.e. name calling, insults, ranting, unsupported ego trips about "sniper superiority") - black font
• Valid facts and effective logical arguments - blue font
• My replies - red font
  

RedDragon1313 wrote: Sad isn't it man. According to the children who attempt to boost their own ego by stating snipers don't exist, . . . Exactly how is this an ego boost?  Logic would dictate that the one getting their ego boosted is the one who argues that they are something that does not exist, thus ensuring their "specialness." . . . YOU don't exist and therefore must not have been the one to get those players out! [sarcasim] For future reference, it's "sarcasm." I wonder how so many players were eliminated in a game by a nonexistant player?  Perhaps all those hits were just caused by paintballs falling from the sky?  Since you don't exist because you used sniper-like-tactics . . . . . . which are more correctly referred to as "ambushing."  (But that wouldn't provide the same sensation of self-aggrandizement now would it?)  The whole vehemence with which the snipers defend their undefendable position is linked to this overwhelming need to feel better about themselves.  The very terms of their argument prove it:  They use "accuracy" while others "spray and pray" and they use "stealth and tactics" while others just rush in.  Obviously they are better and can't stand being told they aren't. and have your marker set up for silence then you must not have made any "one balls" . . . Anyone who surprises anyone else, whether from ambush or due to distraction, can make a single shot elimination. . . . and since accuracy is only obtained by volume . . . Supporting my statement above regarding the superiority complex related to paintball sniping. . . . likewise you could neither exist nor could you have made any eliminations, not with ONE BALL.  Not to mention the fact that after you took your "one shot" everyone MUST have known not only your EXACT position but rained down paint on you like no tomorrow, getting you OUT adfter EVERY one of those hits. Probably, that happens a lot to campers.  Another possibility is that the so called sniper made his one shot elimination and immediately ran away.  If he was hit, then each team lost someone and there was no advantage.  If he got away, then he did so after eliminating one whole random member of the other team who was probably a noob traveling alone; thus providing a huge advantage for his team. Maybe your marker was out of air and someone else made the hits?  Perhaps they were all just such noobs that they shot themselves since YOU don't exist when you use tactics like that YOU could not have goten them out right?  Of course he could have got them out.  The difference is there is nothing that generally differentiates such so called sniping from a basic one each ambush. Not to mention the fact that as EVERYONE knows NO ONE would EVER walk by where you chose to set up . . . Ummm . . . so your saying that "snipers" just camp and wait for some random unlucky soul to come by.  . . . snipers just head off to a place where NO ONE will be comming and just wait until the game ends right?  Oh wait, you don't exist so you couldn't have done that either.  Possibly you never even left the starting point and fell asleep and DREAMED you took out other players? Now that's just being silly.  Of course he went on the field, the only part that was a dream was his glorius "Tom Beringer" impersonation where he always turns the tide of the game by himself. (More accurately, the interpretation of it as such by others as I did not get the I'm an uber-leet sniper vibe from the original poster.) [/sarcasim] See previous note regarding spelling. Anyway man, good work out there!  I still need to get up the cash to go low pressure myself for that added silence! (wife, kids, home and car payments . . . Demonstrated grammar, spelling, a lack of coherent/logical argumentation and an apparent non-understanding of the difference between facts and hyperbole/assertions leads me to believe that the claim of "wife, kids" etc. was merely an unsuccessful attempt to bolster the posters credibility. . . . kind of keep the "painntball" cash at a minimum) My 98C is so silent already that at over 30 ft or so the sound of the ball whizzing through the air is louder than the shot, I can't wait to see what low pressure will do to the mix!  Keep on snipeing and watch the non-believers TAKE THE WALK as they wonder where the balls are comming from!  Must be falling from the sky since YOU don't exist man!!

Where Pirate1650 and CtchofDay make good points is in the usefulness of sniper-like tactics (stealth) in woodsball. They are absolutely correct in that being stealthy and flanking, which I'm quite fond of myself when playing, are useful skills/actions.  But the use of stealth and flanking does not make one a sniper.  If you take the Spec-Ops position of Ambush Sniper and Ghost Flanker and drop the cool part of the names, the descriptive part that remains explains exactly what they do; ambush and flank.  These are basic infantry tactics, used by infantry around the world.  The "Ghost" and "Sniper" parts are merely marketing hype; the paintball "Ambush Sniper" is doing what almost everyone else does and is no more a real sniper than the "Ghost Flanker" is a real ghost.  The only thing that makes most paintball snipers different from the rest of the players is that they have a marginally more effective camouflage.  I say marginally because of the issues involved with matching ghillie to terrain and the fact that they may be expected to move and engage much more frequently than real snipers.

Pirate1650 wrote: Also, if I saw a paintball "sniper" and possibly spoter in full ghillie gear with optics and what not, although I would find that hard to play in and boarderline foolish if you position was compromised considering the dynamics of paintball, I would assume them to be filling the role of sniper.  They obviously have no range advantage but since they are emulating and taking the tactical approach of sniper what else can you call them.

I would call them stupid.

YOU BRING DAT SMART PARTS DOWN!

Srsly...