Snake6 wrote: Oh god, you are using Spec Ops fanboy language. Please don't ever use that type of language again. You do not have have snipers on your team, it is phsically impossible to be a sniper in paintball.

prove it.  and before you go off on me like you do everyone else that disagrees with you.

DONT USE THE MILITARY DEFINITION OF A SNIPER

all a paintball sniper does is try to make his shots count while being undetected.  Humm, sounds a bit like a sniper to me. just because your gun probably cant hit the side of the store you bought it from dont mean that every gun isnt accurate enough to hit someone on their first shot.

and ill repeate this so you dont forget like always in "sniper" debates.

DONT USE THE MILITARY DEFINITION OF A SNIPER

. . . and ill repeate this so you dont forget like always in "sniper" debates.

DONT USE THE MILITARY DEFINITION OF A SNIPER

Nice Marker Seal

btw Snake, I had to log in just for you, it is a marker pic thread ... keep your whining to the text threads ... OK ?

Snake6 wrote: Oh god, you are using Spec Ops fanboy language. Please don't ever use that type of language again. You do not have have snipers on your team, it is phsically impossible to be a sniper in paintball.

prove it.  and before you go off on me like you do everyone else that disagrees with you.

DONT USE THE MILITARY DEFINITION OF A SNIPER

all a paintball sniper does is try to make his shots count while being undetected.  Humm, sounds a bit like a sniper to me. just because your gun probably cant hit the side of the store you bought it from dont mean that every gun isnt accurate enough to hit someone on their first shot.

and ill repeate this so you dont forget like always in "sniper" debates.

DONT USE THE MILITARY DEFINITION OF A SNIPER

*ellipsis*

He's being sarcastic.

i will agree there is no possible way to be a true sniper in paintball.  but to say there is no such thing to any degree in paintball is just out right lies.

some of you said your selves  you use sniper tactics so yes in a way that makes you a paintball sniper.

oh and by the way if you walk into a hospital and say "dude" hire me as a brain surgon they would kick you out faster than you could blink an eye.

"oh almost forgot ... Are you a 'real' sniper? 

No, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I know that my brother in law, in the Airforce, would just love your attitude.  The 'real' snipers he works with are very good guys and rarely, if ever, soap box ... "1 shot 1 kill, no ones sees us" is very real for them."

Several points:

• Having a brother in law in the Air Force does not make you an expert on snipers.
• I spent 23 years in the USAF and do not consider myself a sniper expert in any way.
  

I am just getting tired of the worn-out diatribe of snipers in paintball.  I also want to apologize to Seal for 3 err 4 more useless posts to his marker picture thread.

Other people are probably tired of the BS sniper claims.  Everyone will probably survive.

Mack, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You write too friggen much...

I'm putting off doing my programming homework.  (It's not hard, I just hate get started.)

But danged if you ain't always right.

Thank you, thank you; I'll be here all night.

Love the quip about the older gent with the B2K.

Best player I've ever seen, hands down, in 10+ years of playing. He had a few years and a few pounds on me; and I'm neither a youngin' or a lightweight, but he could work magic in the woods. If he was facing one person the standard outcome would be one shot out of nowhere and a walk off of the field for his opponent.  If he was facing more than one, there'd be a flurry of shots and a bunch of people walking off of the field. Rarely did anyone know where they had been shot from, unlike the ghillie suited wonders that I've seen on the field. Out of the times that we basically went one-on-one (where nobody else interfered) I walked away victorious maybe 20% of the time.  Let me tell you; I worked my butt off for, and treasured, everyone of those victories. 

i. . .  have a cousin she just made officer in the mairnes.  i couldnt tell you what rank but she is the latest family member to join up. . . .

it says military snipers never engage targets within 300 meters and generally go for body shots. 

That eliminates the military sniper definition.

police snipers target much closer targets and generally go for head shots. 

Not a lot of parallel between police sniper operations and paintball, guess we have to write that one off as well.

so right there we can eliminate the requirment for range and the argument some may make for headshots.

Actually, as pointed out above, you just disproved the existence of two types of paintball sniper.

so that leaves us with concealement, accuracy, and choice of targets.

. . . military snipers according to the wiki generally target officers or specialists, and may even target materials such as vehicles, fuel, communication equipment. . . .

Lots of those (officers, specialists, etc.) on the paintball field every weekend.

wiki also states that a snipers job is to also relay info on enemy position, camps, and other vital information . . .

Not that anyone with a radio couldn't do this.  Additionally, I just don't see this being necessary all that often during a woodsball game. 

Cut to woodsball game scene:

"Command this is Ghillie Clad Wonder, over."

"This is Command, go ahead Golf-Charlie-Whiskey."

"I have arrived at checkpoint four and am observing enemy flag station."

"Copy that, what do you see there?"

"Four visible defenders, a bunker, and a flag."

"Affirmative, what are the defenders doing and how are they armed?"

"They are guarding the flag and armed with paintball guns."

. . . that could be used when planing attacks.

Possibly, but by the time observation is conducted, plans are carefully orchestrated, and everything is put into motion either the game will be over or the leet-ninja team will have already lost their flag.

DeTrevni wrote: new 2006 wrote: ... nice, I rest my case ... What do you mean?

Really? I'm lost..

and snake6 your dodging my question  whats your sniper experiance?  what makes you such an expert.

wow mack you gotta be playing some very boring woodsball games if you think all you have to do is shoot the people. 

No, but it is the main idea.

try working as a team, . . .

Do it all the time.

and communicate with each other. 

try tactics next time your out. flank the bunkered down enemy.  sneak up on them. 

We use personal and team tactics all the time.  We also designate and use cover fire and flanking units.  Some of us, as mentioned above, utilize stealth to our advantage as well.  None of us are confused about the fact that we are playing a game and what we are doing only has minimal relation to the world of real combat.

Since we're discussing tactics, it's now personal bragging time:  My best game ever was two years ago.  I had 8 or 9 eliminations while firing a single three round burst during the game. (I've had more eliminations, but number of eliminations had nothing to do with this game being my favorite.)  All three rounds were on the same individual who charged me.  Everyone else was a surrender except for one barrel tag.  I didn't hide and "snipe" for a single one of those eliminations nor did I use a ghillie (I used Renegade tiger stripes for those who are curious); every one of them I stalked and eliminated.  However, this doesn't make me a sniper.  It just makes me a someone who happens to be able to utilize available cover and terrain quite effectively.

and i tell you some of the guys i play woodsball with that just came back from iraq and afganistan are taking it so seriously now i nearly stepped on 1 while he was crawling into position.  he got 4 of the 7 nemy out.  so dont start **edited**ing about crawling dont help teams out.

That's right, we don't feel like altering the rules so you can feel special. Indicating that you feel we should alter the rules for you is admitting that you don't have a valid argument and need the rules changed to be correct.

and snake6 your dodging my question  whats your sniper experiance?  what makes you such an expert.

Although someone already covered this, I'll repeat and explain for you.  Snake is a member of the USMC.  While he may or may not have a "sniper" designator he is a member of one of the most highly trained military branches on the face of the planet.  They are trained to the point where their weapons become extensions of their personal will.  His experience with "sniping" as you wish to define it (since range isn't a requirement) far outweighs yours.  Yes, I know that you "know some guys who know some guys."  I just don't care.  I know some people who know some doctors, but I'm not allowed to play with knives in a doctor's office.

Also, since you asked about Snakes qualifications, I'll give you mine as well.  I had the fortune (or misfortune, considering the initial misuse of the data and resulting time wasted) quite a few years ago to be involved in the background work for the program that eventually evolved into the USAF Counter-Sniper program. 

Mack wrote: Snake, you really should quit taunting the special kids.

Do I have to? It's so much fun...

Snipers are 100% Real in paintball. If either Mack or Snake want to argue with me on this, Go Ahead. I'll win, gauranteed.

I'll end this with my corny joke before it starts.

Paintball Snipers are first time players that have played the game before.

They hide in the back and do nothing.

DeTrevni wrote: new 2006 wrote: ... nice, I rest my case ... What do you mean?

Really? I'm lost..

. . . marine training does not = sniper

No one ever said it did; what was said is as follows:

• There are snipers in paintball
• No there aren't (supported by numerous logical arguments)
• Yes there are (supported by temper tantrums and lame arguments)
• Then someone digressed into challenging Snake's expertise
• They pointed out that he isn't a sniper (which he never claimed to be)
• They argued that his military experience in the USMC doesn't apply but the fact that they know people in the military who know actual snipers does (I found this amusing)
• They pointed out that he has no sniper experience
• Then they pointed out that the range factor that applies to real snipers doesn't apply to the paintball world
• What this means is that they've just defined paintball sniping as essentially the same thing as general combat, which is what Marines do know a few things about
• With this in mind, Snake becomes eminently qualified to pass judgment on this topic
  

if you are a trained sniper I would figure you would have much more tact, by what my brother in law related to me of the ones he has been associated with

TRANSLATION:  I'm a sniper expert because my brother-in-law told me he knew one once.

... you are not even close to their caliber

TRANSLATION:  I don't have any valid arguments so I will just start being insulting.

It really irritates me you think you can solo a war effort, I am glad my cousin, a Marine, became more of a 'man' (mature, respectful, honest, to name a few things) from his experience ... it has not had that effect on you.  DO NOT disrespect the rest of the military, you dishonor the Marines in doing so

TRANSLATION:  I still don't have a valid argument so I will continue being insulting.  Oh, by the way I'm an expert on the Marine Corps because my cousin joined up.

Flaming a sniper post is no more useful than ... oh say, the last 3 pages of this thread.  It would have been nice to see a reasoned debate, not a temper tan tram.  For instance, the relation of, as Mack noted "Terms such as ambush, suppressive fire and flank security element."  Now that would make a knowledgeable and useful thread.  Tallen also noted "So, unless you are in a TEAM operation involving you and a spotter with the specific goal of taking out an individual high-value target without collateral damage and making egress without detection, then you are not a sniper. You may be a sharp-shooter or a marksman, but NOT a sniper. "  This is wonderful, perhaps in Europe they do select players to act in a sniper role as Tallen pointed out ... but it got lost and I would imagine SEAL is no longer interested in a reasoned and knowledgeable discussion, he got blasted by an "expert" on his 1st post to this site ... Well done, help further the "ugly American" image and drag the Marines into it while you are at it ...

TRANSLATION: My arguments lack validity so I will whine about random things because I take the internet even more seriously than paintball sniping.

It also bugs me this is allowed to happen on a forum linked to a manufacturer's site as their official forum ... not a good image

TRANSLATION: More whining.

If I may make a suggestion, clean this thread starting with the first page,

TRANSLATION: The lack of valid arguments, effective refutation, or logical reasoning posted by the pro-sniper side of this debate has become embarrassing so would someone please hide the evidence of our ignominious performance.

not to pick on Snake6, with Snake6's 1st post.  This thread is no good past that point in any manner.  Maybe toss the rest of this 'enlightened' thread into general chat... or the trash.

TRANSLATION: More whining, a final poke at Snake and another plea for evidence destruction.

. . . mack i dont give a **edited** about you so just stop talking to me . . .

TRANSLATION: Please stop using facts and logic against me as I have no effective defense against such underhanded tactics . . .

. . . untill you can come up with a way to change my mind about paintball snipers.

TRANSLATION (continued):. . . so it's a good thing my mind is impervious to logic anyway.

no paintball snipers use cover to shoot an enemy without being detected, set mines, and observe enemy movement. sounds sniperlike to me.

Actually, that sounds more like what recon patrols, Engineers, and forward observers/combat control officers do, not snipers if you're trying to draw some parallels between real world snipers and paintball "snipers".

and dont start saying **edited** about how every player does that. no they dont. those retards playing in the back arnt snipers they are lame ass wannabes.

Really? In my experience, we call the guys who can't make it to the front as quickly as the others "Old Men" and "Heavyweights".

a paintball sniper will be up front taking out the dangerous targets.

Really? See, in my what... almost 20 years of playing paintball, we generally call the people who get up front and take out the potentially dangerous bits "Those smart-assed speedball guys". There's a reason that smart teams on a woodsball or scenario game put all the guys wearing the bright jerseys carrying high-end electros the job of taking out the tough parts or punching big gaping holes through lines. They know how to play the game better than just about anyone else. I've never, in all my time playing, ever seen a "sniper" take down a large obstacle that stood in the way of an advance. In my experience, the guys with high-end markers that can lay down ropes are the ones you send in to take out the guy on their team who can do the same.

Like the bunkered down heavy gunner. or do heavy gunners not exist in paintball because their gun dont weigh 26 pounds?

Mack wrote: new 2006 wrote: They argued that his military experience in the USMC doesn't apply but the fact that they know people in the military who know actual snipers does (I found this amusing) They pointed out that he has no sniper experience Then they pointed out that the range factor that applies to real snipers doesn't apply to the paintball world What this means is that they've just defined paintball sniping as essentially the same thing as general combat, which is what Marines do know a few things about With this in mind, Snake becomes eminently qualified to pass judgment on this topic

so snake knows someone who knows someone that knows real snipers?  wow, talk about  second cousin twice removed bull**edited**.

Part of Marine combat training is couter sniper operations. To be effective at couter sniper operations you have to know what sniper tactics are and are not. I have been trained at couter sniper operations by the USMC so therefore I have every right to render judgement on your so called defense. What you and every other so-called "paintball sniper" is doing is just a single man close ambush,  which is a diversionary tactic. This is not, never has been, and never will be a sniper tactic. It is a tactic tought at any respectable infantry school to any person studing light infantry tactics. Nothing about it is related to snipers. Until you have been through a higher level training than me, you have no weight in saying what a sniper is or is not. I have been there, done that.

i pointed out that military snipers shoot long ranges and law enforcment shoots short ranges. GET IT RIGHT

Law enforcement snipers are tought to shoot at long ranges also. Most law-enforcement snipers come out of the military with sniper training so alot of what is used is military tactics. Also even though most shots taken by LE snipers are from a shorter distance than what military snipers shoot, they are still shooting from beyond the effective range of return fire. A pistol has a shorter effective range than a M16A3 assault rifle.

no paintball snipers use cover to shoot an enemy without being detected,

What any light infantryman does.

set mines,

This is what Combat Engineers or any Light Infantryman does.

and observe enemy movement. 

What an LP/OP in a Light Infantry Platoon does. 

 sounds sniperlike to me.

Souds like Light Infantry to me, and anyone who has been through any Infantry training.

  and dont start saying **edited** about how every player does that. no they dont. 

Yes, they do.

 those retards playing in the back arnt snipers they are lame ass wannabes. 

So you are describing yourself here, right?

a paintball sniper will be up front taking out the dangerous targets. 

And after he fires his first shot, and misses he gets lit up at this point, right?

like the bunkered down heavy gunner.  or do heavy gunners not exist in paintball because their gun dont weigh 26 pounds?

As tallen pointed out, the defininition of heavy gunner is not dependant on the wieght of the weapon, but the round it fires.

As old soldier always points out, "your are one each light infantry." thats it.

here it is about 1 day later and snake6 dont have the balls to reply to my post himself.  mack i dont give a **edited**(Strike two anyone?) about you so just stop talking to me untill you can come up with a way to change my mind about paintball snipers.

I am sorry that unlike you I have to work, at my work I don't always have a computer sitting in front of me. Also I apologize that when I get home, I don't sit on the Forum waiting for you to reply to this stupid thread. I have something called a life, maybe you should try it. Maybe you should figure out what the hell is going on before posting something stupid next time, huh?

by the way snake6 does your friends, friends, friend sit behind friendly lines shooting over their heads?  or is he behind enemy lines shooting something more important?

Do huh what?

Mack wrote: new 2006 wrote: They argued that his military experience in the USMC doesn't apply but the fact that they know people in the military who know actual snipers does (I found this amusing) They pointed out that he has no sniper experience Then they pointed out that the range factor that applies to real snipers doesn't apply to the paintball world What this means is that they've just defined paintball sniping as essentially the same thing as general combat, which is what Marines do know a few things about With this in mind, Snake becomes eminently qualified to pass judgment on this topic

So Snake knows someone, who knows someone that knows real snipers?  Wow, talk about (Deleted space)  second cousin twice removed bull (Strike for the filter use coming?).

I pointed out that military snipers shoot long ranges and law enforcement snipers shoot (Remove s) short ranges. GET IT RIGHT.

No, (By not including the comma, you are contradicting yourself) paintball snipers use cover to shoot an enemy without being detected, set mines, and observe enemy movement.  Sounds sniperlike to me.  (Removal of "and") Dont start saying (Two filter uses in one post is bad) about how every player does that. No they dont.  Those retards playing in the back aren't snipers, they are lame ass wannabes.  A paintball sniper will be up front taking out the dangerous targets.  Like the bunkered down heavy gunner.  Or do heavy gunners not exist in paintball because their guns don't weigh twenty-six pounds?

Here it is about one day later and Snake6 doesn't have the balls to reply to my post himself.  Mack, I dont give a (3rd filter use!) about you so just stop talking to me untill you can come up with a way to change my mind about paintball snipers.

By the way, Snake6 does your friend's, friend's, friend sit behind friendly lines shooting over their heads?  Or is he behind enemy lines shooting something more important?

. . . im done with this forum. 

Kthxby

the mods have lost control to snake6, mack and the other trolls that refuse to let other people have a mind of their own.

People are more than welcome to their own opinions. What they are not entitled to is the right to state those opinions and have them remain unchallenged by those who disagree with them.

mack i still have yet to see your response that would change my mind.

I really don't think anything will and that's okay, because you have a right to your opinion.

maybe someday if you ever think of 1 you could come find me elsewhere.

Don't hold your breath.

snake6 . . . . your military training dont mean jack if you cant give a reasonable excuse why snipers dont exist in paintball other than its impossible. . . .

Several people, including snake offered quite a few valid reasons including information referenced from military and civilian law enforcement sources.  When expertise/knowledge was challenged, the anti-sniper side of the argument also provided real world experience as an example while nothing similar was offered by the pro-sniper side of the debate.

try opening your mind sometimes and think outside your little box.

Oh, the irony.

Name calling is not normally an especially effective way to eloquently state and factually support one's opinion; but at least I was put in good company.

*Phrasing changed to forum appropriate language.

Evil Elvis wrote:       I guess they are far too bussy defending their perceived honor online to spend any time spreading all sort of bruises and paint in the real games not some backyard vs the noobs game.

first off i have never called myself a sniper.  i use sniper like tactics. 

but thats not why im posting right now.  im done with this forum.

Have fun over at specops.

the mods have lost control to snake6, mack and the other trolls that refuse to let other people have a mind of their own.

Oh the irony. The mods have not lost control of anyone but you. Your incessant whining, cursing, and moaning should have gotten you kicked off the forum a few days ago. You are the troll here. You came into the thread with no forum rep, trolling for a reaction which you got, and because you didn't like it you started insulting people who had different opinions than you because you had no facts to back up your opinions.

rambino, your private message box is full empty it sometime.  i would have left much more quietly if you had done so.

mack i still have yet to see your response that would change my mind.  maybe someday if you ever think of 1 you could come find me elsewhere.

snake6,  your counter sniper training dont make you an expert on snipers.  it tells you how to deal with them when you come under fire.  ill let the fact that you still to this day dodged my questions because frankly i dont care anymore.  your military training dont mean jack if you cant give a reasonable excuse why snipers dont exist in paintball other than its impossible.  try opening your mind sometimes and think outside your little box.  never once have i claimed to be a paintball sniper and i will never claim to be one as long as i play.

My counter sniper training teaches me alot more than how to react when I come under fire. It teaches alot of sniper tactics, about where the best position is for a sniper to sit, how snipers move into position, what the effective ranges are on various sniper weapon systems and so on. Know your enemy, in order to do so you must know how they think. My couter sniper training is 100% more viable than the "not trained" status you have.

I did not dodge any of your questions, if I didn't answer something it was because someone else already answered it.

Myself and the other forumers gave sereral reasonable answers as to why snipers don't exist in paintball. You are just so close minded that you can't see past the pile of bull poop you are standing in.

when you can think of a reasonable answer come find me also. 

I have already stated several reasonable answers. You are the one who did not come up with reasonable counter points.

mods maybe someday you may take back control of this forum but until then im sick of dealing with some of these thickheaded dumb<poopy> like snake and mack.

The mods have complete control of this forum. I think you are sick of getting every argument you attempt to throw out there handed back to you. Maybe if you were man enough to know when you are wrong and to admit to it, you would be welcome here.

oh and by the way OP  i like the gun looks very nice.

Snake6 wrote: lt redneck wrote:    Have fun over at specops.   I did not dodge any of your questions, if I didn't answer something it was because someone else already answered it.

firstoff specops forums sucks ass and im not going there

and secondly my questions were directed towards you snake6.  everytime you let someone answer about your background that was a dodge.  macks answer about your military training dont mean <poopy>your the 1 that should be answering those questions.

If someone directs a question at me, but another forumer answers it correctly why should I post the same thing that someone else already posted? That is a waste of my very valuable time.

and the mods dont have control of this forum, if they did you snake would have atleast a strike beside your name for using dual accounts to boost your post count.

Daul Accounts to boost my post count? what the hell are you talking about. I am one of the few forumers that actually doesn't have multiple accounts, and even if I did your post count only reflects the account that you are posting with. The only ones who can alter post counts are mods. I am sorry that you are envious of my post count. Its not like means anything other than the fact that I am not stupid enough to get banned withing my first few weeks here.

EDITED

hey mack go <poopy> yourself.

firstoff specops forums <forum inappropriate phrase deleted> and im not going there . . .

Good going, you just disparaged the best organized (although factually deficient/incorrect) support for your opinions. In fact, if you read some of their articles, you will find that they mirror your pro-sniper position quite closely.

By the way, didn't you leave already?

lt redneck wrote: . . . im done with this forum. . . .

and secondly my questions were directed towards you snake6.  everytime you let someone answer about your background that was a dodge.  macks answer about your military training dont mean **edited**.  your the 1 that should be answering those questions.

How many times does he have to answer you and have those answers totally ignored?

and the mods dont have control of this forum, if they did you snake would have atleast a strike . . .

Want some cheese with that?

. . . beside your name for using dual accounts to boost your post count.

Dual accounts don't boost a post count, they split the total number of posts between two accounts based on which account the poster is using. (Duh!)

EDITED

hey mack go < partially filtered, forum inappropriate and anatomically impossible sexual suggestion deleted>.

Mack, logic is beyond him.

It is pointless to keep this up.

Mods contacted.