tallen702 wrote: iOWNyOU22 wrote: angel 1. a work of art. If by "art" you mean the overpriced crap they sell you at IKEA, then yeah, you've got it there. The '1' is still just a simplistic knock-open-poppet that is controlled by a pneumatic ram. Old Hat technology that just keeps getting a face lift so they can continue to charge $1000+ for it. At least Egos are small and light using the same tech. WDP (now angel sports) can't even build a decent reg to save their lives. Remember that "angel air" digital reg crap back in '01? Those things never worked right and always vented through the safety valve right in the middle of games. The last good angel was the LED.

"Old hat" technology? Kinda like internal combustion engines and the bicycle? It works, and it works well. Why should a company or an industry be required to come out with a new way to get a ball out of the barrel every generation? That's just stupid, and you know it. Also, guess how the Cyborg works... Just take a guess.

Let's compare weights here with barrel, battery, reg, ASA etc.

A1 - 38.8 oz
DM8 - 37.8 oz (no macroline)
DM7 - 39.4 oz
DM6 - 41.4 oz
Ego 8 - 32.0 oz
Ego 7 - 33.6 oz
Ego 6 - 41.6 oz

Yes, clearly the A1 is a brick, especially considering it was released over a year ago.

Their regs are fine. The LPRs are flawless, and while the HPR's don't necessarily take to HP all that well I have a feeling that they are not building it like that by accident.

What the AIR has to do with anything I don't know. IT should be noted that the AIR design was not "old hat" technology, and you have clearly pointed out where that got us. But you must realize, the current screw-in belleville spring stack regs are crappy because they're "old hat"! Give me a break, tallen.

Their last good gun was the LED? Uh, ok. Did you set a cake on fire today or something? 

Angel G7 Fly is the most beautiful popular production paintball gun IMO. When I say popular production, I'm excluding PL markers.

The basic principle of the internal combustion engine is the same as it has always been, as has the ram driven poppet design. Yes, either principle can be "tweaked" or "enhanced" but the overriding idea is the same.

As for the perceived reliability of the Angel platform, I am going to take issue with that. I don't know what models you have used, but either you got lemons or you suck at keeping things running (which I hate to even mention, because I know you're competent.) Angels are, as you say, ram driven poppets just like the Ego and Cyborg, among others. How you can recommend the Borg and diss the Angel in the same breath is beyond me, because they both operate the same way. The only real difference is that the solenoid in the Cyborg and Ego is fed via plastic tube airlines from the LPR, whereas the Angel uses and always has used airlines milled and drilled into the body. The ram is directly fed via the noid, and the noid is directly fed via a lengthwise air passge from the LPR (except for the A1, whose LPR vents directly to the noid which vents directly to the ram.) If anything, the Cyborg/Ego/Timmy designs are LESS reliable because those lines can and do blow out or act stupid for no reason.

I have had my Fly for three years. The problems that I've had with it, while few, were user error (ram adjusted wrong) and I can't even fathom how you could screw these things up. Granted, the A1 is not the finest Angel that has ever been produced. Yet again, we come back to your whole stance on how things should be "new hat" as it were, because the A1 is markedly different from the G7 generation that preceded it. As said earlier, the A1's LPR feeds the noid directly, so the overall layout of the gun is different now. The valve system is completely different, as are the detents and board. At launch, there were a myriad of issues (which is to be expected when the design has changed os dramatically) but now they are pretty solid guns. I would rather shoot a G7/Fly/Gat/Speed, but for the love of christ you need to give these guns some credit. There's a new magnetic valve ocming out for the A1 here pretty soon, and it is already delivering Cyborg level efficiency for the people testing them.

We'll see.

thejudge wrote: you are all talking too rich for my blood.  I am down with my A5 as my highest end gun lol.

I know what you're saying. Everybody around here has upgraded to high-end guns and I'm still using the same A-5 I've had since 2004. I figure the ability to shoot 16 bps rather than 13 (I am one of the slowest trigger walkers I know) and reduced weight and length isn't really worth dropping $300 or more on.

tallen702 wrote: I think the Angel series is one of those things that you either love or hate. I think my distaste for the series started with the Dark Angels, and yes, while they aren't a stock offering from WDP themselves, it was enough to turn me off. I also had horrible issues in tournaments when using them as a sponsored marker. I often would play a game or two with the LCD I was given, get ticked at it, and put it back in the gear bag in favor of the first Gen 'timmy that was our back-up. I've just personally never had a good experience with one. Mac Dev Cyborgs, on the other hand, I've abused the living crap out of on the field and not had an issue. One of the Pev's techs let me field-test his '05 for a few weeks. I didn't have any issues with it. You could throw it in the gear bag and then haul it out a week later and not worry about anything. The Fly, I will give props to. They were a nice marker, but I still just don't see paying all that money for an Angel when I can go grab a DM/PM off the wall at Pev's for hundreds less. Like I said, I never had anything but trouble with the older post-LED Angels and that's left a sour taste in my mouth. But let's face it, when you get into the upper end, it's all subjective anyway.

Fair enough.

its just the rep that noobs flock to angels and what ive heard about reliability.  its between the ego 08 and new cyborg.  ive owned 6 a5's and still have 1, there great, but just lack in a bit, plus im looking more towards light, tight, accurate and fast. so no one likes the shockers? thought more people would have been defending them, most popular high end at the feilds i go to.

Most of us here hate SP with a passion = no shockers.

I'd go for the 'Borg, considering you don't see many people with one.

p_p_b_h wrote: personally i didnt list an angel because ive seen many at my feild use them, generally they get eaten or break down. im still leaning toward on ego 08 or an sl74, ive never used or seen a droid in action, but ill look into it.

I didn't see this well thought-out gem of a post until now. I'm getting a little slow to the punch, so if you felt like you had gotten away with your idiocy then I'm sorry to let you down.

You're just like every other ill-informed Angel hater out there.

At least tallen took the initiative to write out more than "weel i r scene meh nee borked ones at teh feelds, so they cleerly sux!!!" And what a big surprise, you bearhug Egos in the same breath.

That's the thing, though; I'm not relying on what I have seen or heard or my "beliefs" when I talk about Angels, because I know what I'm talking about. I know Angels inside and out, and I know that my direct experience with mine and other's Angels contradicts what you halfwit Angel haters have to say about them. Honestly, if I had never shot one before, I would be more inclined to listen more the opinion of someone who has actually used one before and knows what the hell they're doing. 

Unlike you and unlike so many other dimwit Angel haters that I encounter on a daily basis, I actually have used one. I have used mine for the past three years. Believe it or not, WDP does not put out a product that is designed to stop working.

hybrid-sniper wrote: At least tallen took the initiative to write out more than "weel i r scene meh nee borked ones at teh feelds, so they cleerly sux!!!" And what a big surprise, you bearhug Egos in the same breath.

That was one of the best lines ever, atleast to me it was.  Another quote of hybrid in my sig?  Quite possibly.  Atleast that will make me laugh later when I have to work 4-12 for Black Friday at JCPenneys.  Thatll suck.

And I agree with Hybrid, I have not shot an Angel, but many of my friends have, and, Ive been shot many times by them.  They are good guns.  When you get into the high-end brackett of guns, things become more personal preference.

I myself would go for a nice Cyborg.  But, thats just me.

p_p_b_h wrote: hmmmm havent other members here said they have used or have experience with them? trust me ive read every article i can find on pretty much any marker, and it looks like a tight marker, its just not the right marker for me. every marker can be the greatest to someone, its just the least amount of people think angels are good. ive met people who absolutly despise cockers, and ive tried explaining to them why they are very good but many would prefer an a5, x7, ion(he was nuts) or mini, angel, etc. good job in telling me im an idiot when ive based my ideas on the majority of the people here, im really sure were all idiots, because who knows better than you.

I never said not to trust the input of, say, tallen, because he has used Angels before apparently. What I'm saying is don't just base your viewpoint on Angels based on what you have seen at the fields or what people say in the PE forum on PBN.

So, you've asked many questions, started numerous threads, even though you know you are not going to get a new gun?

Make sure you try out the Cyborg, I love them.  The older ones look kind of odd though, I love 06s though.

Cool, cool. Sounds like the LCD was having some LPR problems, but it is perfectly reasonable for it to cause a bad first impression.

DeTrevni wrote: I remember the days when 'cockers were high end...

yes.... i do too. i still would consider my cockers hi end(my freelow and jeff orr) im kinda looking at a mini now, because im really looking for somethign thats pretty tight, light and easier to use than my cockers, what would you think would have less kick and more accuracy, the borg or the mini?

'Borg > Mini

tallen702 wrote: hybrid-sniper wrote: Speaking of which, I need to get me a Sidewainder. I am having trouble swallowing their new design though... I liked the base that wasn't rounded. Go 2-Liter then.

I would, because the length is right, but the fitting coming out where it does annoys me to no end.

Meg@tr0n wrote: jerseypaint:i didn't know that....are the new droids just as efficient?

Yeah, I cannot wait to try one.  Sized like a shocker, efficiency like a Borg, and great quality from MacDev.

p_p_b_h wrote: oh lol now im looking at mags.... there are too many nice guns in the world....mags look really sleek, small, and are supposed to be pretty good... grrr.....i feel like i should somehow get millions of dollars and just buy every gun out there... now i understand why gunwhores exist...

Mags are some of the best markers ever made, IMO. Why do you think most of todays high end markers use valves derived from Mags?

GhilleMan wrote: Buzzard I really dont consider markers that will be worth a 1/4th of their price new in 2 or 3 years to be high end. Why not just pick up a dm4 or 5 for like 3-400 used, just as fast, couple ounces heavier, little bigger. I've seen 05 egos down around 375-450, why pay 1200 when you can get a 2 year old version of really the same gun for way less.

Well what defines "high end"? Is depreciation really a factor or is quality, features, and the simply fact that there is demand at such a price enough to dictate that a product is considered high end?

Furthmore... while it might not be the most frugal or fiscall responsibl decision... if you are making a significant amount of money what is wrong with using your wealth to buy the fastest, lightest, and most expensive marker? How does buying the slightly better,... singificantl more expensive version of a product negate its niche of being a high end product?

how many cockers are actually considered high end? would my freeflow and my dads jeff orr be considered high end?

Sounds like you're playing a bunch of scrubs.

Whatever, though. Once you start to play competent people you may see the need for something with a little more oomph.