Way to go New Jersey
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Category: News And Views
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URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172087
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Topic: Way to go New Jersey
Posted By: Benjichang
Subject: Way to go New Jersey
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:11pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7143597.stm - Jersey bans death penalty Hopefully more states will follow their lead. -------------  irc.esper.net #paintball |
Replies:
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:12pm
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Jersey sux
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Posted By: ¤ Råp¡Ð F¡rè ¤
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:15pm
Boooo
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:16pm
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Good
Nobody should have the right to decide who lives or dies. I can allready forsee a debate forming. ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:17pm
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^^ Probably. Anyway, yeah NJ definitely sucks, but at least something good is coming out of there.
------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: DGAFmuffinZ
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:36pm
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That is retarded. Some people deserve to die.
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EMIKE/ILP PROUD LAKER, NY GIANTS, and YANKEE FAN |
Posted By: Glassjaw
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:37pm
And who is to decide that? ------------- |
DGAFmuffinZ wrote:Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:38pm
Me. -------------
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Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:45pm
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Posted By: bravecoward
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:48pm
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Thats bc the mob takes care of it already
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Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 11:49pm
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I am all for Death penalty.
After all we put down dogs for bs reasons most of the time. I find it hillarious how some get all OMG how dare you take someone's life in Death Sentence but are all for other forms of killing like Abortions. ------------- 
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Posted By: JohnnyHopper
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:00am
We should just call the death penalty super-late-post-term-abortion and then there'd be a line around the block to dispose of all that nonviable criminal tissue mass. It would also be funny to tell all the people who choose death that now the baby get's 20 years of appeals just like a condemmed dirt bag :) ------------- My shoes of peace have steel toes. |
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:09am
Key word, some. ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:25am
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I don't see how you can support the death penalty if the system is flawed and has failed in the past. The fact that wrongly-convicted people have been put to death, yet support for the capital punishment is so high in this country is mind blowing to me. Based on that alone should be enough reason to not support it. And also, the abortion argument really has no bearing in this thread. That's a separate issue that really can't be compared to capital punishment. I also find it fascinating that some many Christians out there are in favor of the death penalty. I figure since Jesus was a wrongful victim of capital punishment, you people would be against it. Also, what happened to "Thou shalt not kill"? ------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:30am
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lol -------------
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:32am
------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: Brian Fellows
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:29am
| NJ still sucks. |
Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:08am
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In b4 heated debate.
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Posted By: DGAFmuffinZ
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:15am
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Yeah, didn't even think about this before... but... uh... Who the hell cares about New Jersey anyways? -------------
EMIKE/ILP PROUD LAKER, NY GIANTS, and YANKEE FAN |
Posted By: kurieitaa
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 5:06am
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what about "eye for an eye" ------------- 
[ http://kurieitaa.googlepages.com - My Web Site }-{ http://kurieitaa.googlepages.com/cpbg - My Paintball Guns ] |
Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 7:06am
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Michigan has never had one. We're the only state in the union that has not had the death penalty throughout its history.
Isn't anyone who lives in NJ going to be dead from all kinds of cancers by age 30 anyways? Pollution is insane there. ------------- 
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Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 7:07am
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If we eliminate the death penalty, then in it's place we should at least start up a Devil's Island penal colony. Dump the scourge somewhere else and remove them from society... have them fend for themselves.
Where's the disincentive to commit crimes anymore? Sentences, parole, etc have become such a joke. And death penalty issue aside... it makes me cringe to read "Hopefully more states will follow [New Jersey's] lead." for any issue. NJ is such a horrid example to follow for anything. My favorite headline for 2nd half of 2007 is from the Trentonian: "Scumbag politicians steal $1 billion" With it's major cities consistantly making the top list for crime/murder... ridiculously high taxes... and slew of corrupt criminals, errr... I mean politicians that the idiot citizens continue to elect in year after year... NJ is hardly an example for ANYone to follow, for anything. I keep hoping my family decides to move so I don't even have to bother going back so often. I know I surely won't ever move back there myself. But back on topic... if the Death Penalty is to be removed... then something else needs to take it's place. The sentencing aspect of criminal justice should be as much a disincentive as a punishment. Right now it's hard for me to consider it being much of either. At the very least... no death penalty should mean 4x6 cell, solitary confinement for life with no parole, no TV, no exercise, no contact with other inmates... nothing. |
Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 7:15am
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I'd consider that more cruel and unusual punishment than just killing me Shorty. -------------
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Posted By: What to do?
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 7:41am
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It's not me thats doing the killing, so I dont care, Death Penalty=win No Death Penalty?= :( ------------- 
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 7:49am
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Interesting concept, Death Penalty for those whose only crime is to be located in the wrong womb, and no death penalty for those in our society actually guilty of a true crime against society.
The term we are looking for is deterance, no fear of actual punishment, no hesitation in the commision of the act. Again many here are looking at this from the "time out" chair generation, a true form of deterance...once you have kids you will understand actually how effective that "acceptable" punishment is also. ------------- 
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Posted By: Enmity
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 7:57am
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If NJ is going to rid of the death penalty, why not let rapists go wild while they are at it? An eye for an eye should be implemented, if you kill somebody beyond question, you get killed. It should not even be a question, those convicted of murder should be killed, and there should be no 15 years in prison before you are executed, it should be maybe a year, to think about what they did, then execution.
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 8:04am
I'm pretty sure it's a long period of time so they can make sure it was actually that person who comitted the crime. I think Texas made it so that if there are a certain number of eye-witnesses, they execute them in a much shorter time. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 8:06am
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Again a "Biblical" aspect ot our society, the "eye for an eye" concept, and we know how the current feeling is towards any "relgious" applications in our "new enlightened " society. The rub the belly it will be OK approach to the criminal surely deters crime, that is the new progressive approach. -------------
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Posted By: Enmity
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 8:23am
Yeah Texas made it so if 3 or more people see you commit the murder and will testify, you get executed within something like a month. -------------
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Posted By: Da Hui
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 8:26am
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Something tells me that if somebody killed one of your Family members your opinion on the Death Penalty would change.
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 8:30am
------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: Da Hui
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 8:36am
Have you ever had anybody close to you Murdered? -------------
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Posted By: ¤ Råp¡Ð F¡rè ¤
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 8:56am
Exactly. |
Posted By: -ProDigY-
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 9:03am
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rent or something ------------- 
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 9:50am
------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: jerseypaint
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 10:11am
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This forum holds alot of hate for Jersey. Where did all the hate foster? Hell, we gave you Bruce Springsteen, what more do you want! ------------- 
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:11am
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Life is considered to be a beating heart, and in partial birth the child usually takes the first breath before the scissors are inserted. One video released to the public on an abortion and we may feel differant. Fetus tests have shown that the fetus feels pain, yet we now debate the act of lethal injection is considered "inhumane" since it causes pain in the condemned. Sodium Pentathol the first drug given in the mass dosage in lethal injection reders unconsiousness in moments, no pain. The two remainder are backups. So if Sodium Pentathol is "inhumane" any surgeon who uses it is comitting "inhumane" surgury.
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:16am
Ever had somebody close to you wrongly convicted, executed, and later found innocent? I think your opinion on the death penalty would change also. ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:20am
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I like the Gulag/Devils Island approach. A camp in northern Alaska, inmate run, let them prey on each other for a change. And if you try to escape every living creature out there sees you as food. The explosive collar thing would work also, stray from the perimeter, bang off with the head-self induced death penalty. -------------
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Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:23am
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As fascinating as a discussion comparing abortion to the death penalty is, I suspect it is a little off center here... But as to the death penalty, I find that many supporters of the death panalty casually mix up various reasons. Should we have the death penalty because it is a deterrant? Or because the bible says "an eye for an eye"? Is it "justice"? If it were proven that the death penalty is not a particularly effective deterrant, would you change your position? And are you not concerned about the innocent getting executed? (And BTW, OS, if you think time outs are ineffective as a child-rearing tool, you are doing it wrong) ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:26am
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Raised 5 with the old fashioned approach. Wait till they become teens, and see if that "time out" approach holds water. -------------
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:28am
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Fail. The Death Penalty debate is filled with so many misunderstandings and "opinion presented as fact" types. Once people do some research, and set their personal feelings off to the side, things may get clearer. Honestly though, who didn't see me coming into this debate? |
Posted By: Da Hui
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:34am
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If there is concrete proof that you murdered somebody (or more than one somebodies), and then ate their liver with some Fava Beans and a nice Chianti then you should be sentenced to death.
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:35am
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That's opinion, and carries no weight as a tool or justice. Revenge does not equal justice. |
Posted By: Da Hui
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:38am
And what do you suggest happen to said person? -------------
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:41am
Well the person obviously cannot be allowed to be a part of society, but we cannot kill him and take the ultimate seizure that cannot be given back. |
Posted By: Da Hui
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:43am
If he isn't going to be allowed to partake in normal society then why live? I know I would rather be dead then spend the rest of my life in jail. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:43am
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What exactly is justice, but a form of social "revenge" for an act against the society. Imprisonment is also a form of sociatal revenge, so by the logic here there should be no justice, do as you wish. -------------
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:44am
| You may personally want to die, but that doesn't mean he wants to. Death is permanent and in a country full of regular human beings, we cannot make that choice, even in government, for other people. That is an opinion on the matter. However, for the purposes of debate, I resort back to the Innocence Project. |
Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:45am
------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:47am
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Are you really applying slippery-slope to the criminal justice system? Reminds me of the "men marrying men will lead to marrying animals" excuse. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:49am
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There are those in the prison system who by choice prefere death to a long and no chance of parole sentence. I still find it fascinating that the convicted rights totally outweighs the victims rights in our juducial system. The murdered did not get a fair trial, a judicial review, an appeal or two, just an instant and immediate "death sentence" by the individual in question. -------------
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:51am
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It is sad that a person had to die; however, society cannot control that. Simply killing the murderers doesn't control it, it's after the fact. |
Posted By: Ticalxx421
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:56am
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Yay! for death penalty. That is all. ------------- [IMG]http://i14.tinypic.com/73e0l8j.jpg"> Represent! |
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:00pm
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You keep just making declarations like this. There are millions of people that have been raised without any form of corporeal punishment, and they have turned out no worse than anybody else. Time outs are not intended for teenagers. But that does not mean that they are useless. Taking a monolithic approach to child-rearing and discipline is just as idiotic as taking a monolithic and simplistic approach to the judicial system. Speaking of which - most of the places that do NOT have death penalty? Less crime than places with the death penalty. We obviously have to be careful about inferring cause from that simple stat, but it does seem to indicate that a lack of death penalty does not necessarily lead to more crime. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:03pm
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Hammurabi is considered biblical? ------------- 
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:03pm
Biblical or not, Hammurabi was actually a societal failure. |
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:05pm
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I am still waiting for a death penalty supporter to address the concern about innocent folk getting executed. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: JohnnyHopper
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:05pm
I disagree with the death penalty as well. It is too easy on the convicted. It is also incredibly expensive. A quick injection of MPTP (dopamine receptor toxin), surgical removal of the gibblets, eyes and ear drums would be much more fun. Then you don't even need to lock them up, just toss them on the front lawn of the court house and let good samaritans feed the hairy criminal veggie (or let the birds turn him into a carbon offset). ------------- My shoes of peace have steel toes. |
Posted By: Ticalxx421
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:06pm
Stuff Happens. ------------- [IMG]http://i14.tinypic.com/73e0l8j.jpg"> Represent! |
Posted By: JohnnyHopper
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:07pm
No one is innocent. Done :) ------------- My shoes of peace have steel toes. |
Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:07pm
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Easy to say when it's not you. |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:07pm
I agree, but to my knowledge, Hammurabi had nothing to do with the bible, and OS is using the eye for an eye argument as though Jesus would approve. How OS is trying to use religious appeal to further his point about killing people is mildly funny to me. -------------
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:08pm
Yeah I understood your point, I just thought I'd throw something in. |
Posted By: Da Hui
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:12pm
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I may be incorrect on this but I believe that the bible condemns Hammurabi's code.
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Posted By: Ticalxx421
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:12pm
You damn right. ------------- [IMG]http://i14.tinypic.com/73e0l8j.jpg"> Represent! |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:14pm
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I kind of hope you are trolling .
Happened already. Pissed as I was when I was 5, I'm not at all mad he didn't get the death penalty. -------------
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:17pm
That's sweet. However, the original point of innocents being executed immediately proves that the death penalty is too much of a liability. |
Posted By: Ticalxx421
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:18pm
Yeah. I am. Just waiting to go to work and had nothing better to do. ------------- [IMG]http://i14.tinypic.com/73e0l8j.jpg"> Represent! |
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:21pm
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Which proves my point that the death penalty is in large part about revenge, which is not a very good reason. The purpose of the justice system is not to satisfy the bloodlust of victims. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:22pm
Why do you and I always meet in Death Penalty debates? |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:23pm
And the Lightbulb. (Sure, Edison did, but where?) JERZY REPREZENT ------------- 
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:34pm
Ok. It's the jury's fault. End of story. They found there to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt that person in question committed a crime. Does it suck? Yes. Should it be changed? No. All of the innocent people who have been executed were found guilty of crimes that happened before DNA testing came to fruition, or became so wide spread. I'd like you to find 1 person, who was found guilty and sentenced to death, when DNA testing was used in the trial, that was later found innocent. Won't happen. I think if it's a crime that can be punished by death, DNA evidence has to be present. ------------- 
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:38pm
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Even videotapes can lie. I'm sure there are people that say Rodney King was assaulting the officers before the camera was turned on. DNA evidence is not the end all proof needed for every case either. In fact, one of the last few people released by the Innocence Project was wrongly convicted because his seed was found in a dead girl. It meant he had sex with her recently, not killed her. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:40pm
Oh snap, here we go. I haven't had one of these debates in months.  I hope you realize what you've unleashed.TL;DR warning Not counting reparations, there are five goals of criminal sentencing: Specific deterrence: Convince the offender it is in his/her best interest not to re-offend. General Deterrence: Convince others it is in their best interest not to offend Denunciation: Express society's disapproval for certain behaviour Rehabilitation: To reform the offender Separation from society: To keep the offender apart from the rest of society. The death penalty will certainly deter the individual from reoffending- they're dead! It also does a good job of separating them from society, and of denouncing crime. Capital punishment, however, makes no effort to rehabilitate, and most importantly does not serve as a general deterrent. Let me make that perfectly clear, as I know some people in this thread will try to ignore it: the death penalty does not deter other people from offending. The research on that is extensive and clear. Don't even try to argue the point unless you're willing to cite research to shwo that I'm wrong. Good luck with that: It ain't there. I have no problem with the death penalty philosophically. By all means, many humans have given up their purchase on life through their acts against society, and we would be better off without them. However, society as a whole and the judicial system in particular have not proven competent enough to be entrusted with the right to decide judicially who lives and who dies. Innocent people HAVE been executed. Innocent people - many dozens of them - have been sent to death row and later successfully appealed. As long as our justice system is fallible it has no business handing down sentences as irrevocable as death. You can release someone from prison and compensate them. You can't bring someone back to life. If that means that many heinous criminals will keep their lives, so be it. Find some craphole prison and let them rot for life. It's still cheaper than the appeals process. There is no gain to society form capital punishment that is not served equally well - and more cheaply - by life imprisonment. As long as the possibility exists of a single innocent person being killed judicially, society does not have the right to take that risk. One of the greatest tenets of our society is that people are free from threat or mistreatment by their government, and yet some of you would casually dismiss the wrong people dying - people with parents, spouses, brothers, sisters, kids, friends - as simply 'oops'. I'm all for taking a lot of our criminals, lining them up, and shooting them in the back of the head for what they've done. However, I'm not competent enough to know that every single one of them deserves to be, and neither is any person or organization within our society. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:41pm
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I think you overestimate the power of DNA to prove guilt. DNA is great for proving innocence, in some cases. Ok for proving guilt, in other cases. And totally useless in yet other cases. DNA is not some cure-all for the justice system. There is still plenty of room for error. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:42pm
| Snap. That's all of our points rolled into one. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:44pm
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With todays more effective forensic evidense collection techniques, the chance of an innocent being executed are neglegable. After the appeals process as well as judicial review, the chances are even slimmer that an innocent gets executed. 30 years ago the innocense factor was an issue today it is neglegable.
As for the ethics of an accidental execution, that must be the concern of society, but not outweigh todays total judicial process. Our judicial system is designed with several faults built in, it is not perfect but fares way better than other systems out there. And if there is that 1 in a million chance that an innocent gets executed, the fault lays within our legal system, and the faults of the humans who run that. How many "guilty" in our society get found not guilty, or not even brought to trail, based on a "mistake" within that legal system. It is a balance. As for the eye for an eye arguement, -------------
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:46pm
| As long as our government has the slightest chance of taking the ultimate seizure away from a person, the penalty should be revoked. I stress ultimate seizure because life is not something that can be given back. |
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:03pm
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You and Linus both just said this like it is self-evident - it is not. Based on what do you declare that the judicial system is now essentially fool-proof? Wishful thinking? Most convictions today STILL rely primarily on one type of evidence: eye-witness testimony. And this type of testimony is the least reliable of all. How can we be so confident in convictions when they are mostly based in unreliable evidence?
Agreed - which is why we should abolish the death penalty. It will allow us to safeguard the balance by providing additional protection against wrongful conviction at no cost. All we have to do is give up an ineffective form of punishment. Giving up the death penalty will not cost us any deterrant value, will save us money, and provide additional insurance against mistakes. What's not to love? ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:18pm
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Susan... You have yet to name ONE person that was found guilty through DNA testing and sentenced to death, and was later found innocent.
Dune, I'll allow that case, but remember: Proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What would a reasonable person believe in that circumstance? Not a criminologist, not a forensic specialist, but a NORMAL person. It's the JURY, not the punishment, that is screwed up. Bri, you're saying as long as there is a chance an innocent could die, it should never be done. So, by your theory, we should NEVER go to war? You're acting like I'm a bad person for being pro-capital punishment. That I don't care about the condemned family. You don't know me, so don't put me in that category. And as a side-bar... we should have never executed Saddam? -------------
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:30pm
What are those chances then? Care to provide numbers, as well as a source for those numbers?
Again, let's see some numbers here. I'll give you a few: There have been 55 people already on death row with convictions since 1990 who have had their convictions overturned. 15 of those were convicted in the past ten years. http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/Browse-Profiles.php - 1 You cannot argue that modern evidence collection techniques have not been around since 1990.
Could yout ell me what the 'total judicial process' is please? Does it include court appeals? Does it include the process of enacting judicial legislation? Does it include research into the efficiencies, shortcomings, impacts, and areas subject to improvement in the judicial system? Or is it just a handy modern term for 'Kill them all, the Lord shall recognize his own'? You've done a beautiful job of trying to apply newspeak where reason fails. The 'total judicial process' is no excuse for killing innocent people by mistake. I challenge you to find me any federal or state policy that acknowledges it as such. Your argument is total bunk.
How exactly does your system fare way better? The U.S. has the highest prison population in the world http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/world-prison-population-list-2005.pdf - 2 , despite having a quarter of China's population. You also have more prisoners per capita than any other nation. Of 'western' countries, only America, Japan, and South Korea still practice capital punishment. America shares the podium with some of the the most downtrodden, autocratic, chaotic and undeveloped countries in the world in still using capital punishment as part of its judicial process. You have one of the highest murder rates in the developed world, ranking behind South Africa, Russia, and Latvia.
What is your source for the chance being one in a million? Apparently one in a million is acceptable. Is one ina hundred? Or a thousand? How about ten thousand? You've state an acceptable lower limit, let's quantify exactly when you find it acceptable to risk an innocent death, I'd like to know the exact odds you feel society should tolerate. Since you're reducing human life to numbers and odds it should be easy to quantify it mathematically for us. We've got several mathematicians on the board who will undoubtedly help you out if you'd like.
So killing innocent people by mistake is a means of balancing the people whoa re let off the hook by mistake? You, sir, are an idiot. Don't argue me with your opinions or logic- your opinions aren't worth much and your logic tends to be horribly flawed and somewhat frightening, as well as lacking in factual information. Let me see facts, data, and research to counter what I've said. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:34pm
Incorrect. I'm saying that the justice system has no business handing down death sentences due to its flaws. Criminal justice and military action are two vastly different beasts. Don't try to extrapolate my words into something I didn't say or imply- it makes you look foolish. Your sidebar on Saddam is irrelevant, and moreover shows you've neither read nor understood my arguments. Go back and read it again. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:39pm
That is some serious straw grasping. I managed to miss this thread's explosion somehow, but I figure this is as good of a time as any to chime in. As long as we have a system in place where human beings run the show, there should not be a death penalty. While yes, it might happen less with new forms of evidence, it can still happen. It is this variable that should be reason enough to stop giving people an irreversible punishment. Like has been said in this thread, if someone is found innocent after spending 30 years in jail, it sucks really badly, but we can release him and compensate him for time spent in prison. It sucks, but it sucks a lot worse to kill someone, because you cannot simply bring a person back to life. The whole "Well it hardly ever happens anymore" argument doesn't cut it when you are talking about someone's life. Even if it just might have a .1% of happening, that is enough of a reason not to do it. Also, I find the whole "Well what if someone murdered your wife/mother/father etc.," argument to be loaded and idiotic. The purpose of the justice system is about justification, not about revenge. If we had a justice system where the "what if it happened to you" question was how we decided punishment, can you imagine how asinine that would be? We put stipulations and regulations in place to avoid the heated pathos-laden fervor. The fact of the matter is that the death penalty is equally useless and dangerous, a throwback to a more archaic time that we should all be working to move beyond. -------------
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:56pm
| Objective vs. Subjective. People think that by not wanting the death penalty, we are "soft on crime." The lack of research and interwoven opinion as fact statements are scary. Getting rid of the death penalty could be one of the most society-bolstering things we could do. |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:56pm
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Ok, let me put this one out for you then.
We catch all those responsible for Daniel Pearls death. We have DNA, video, eye witness accounts, forensic evidence, they confess. Death penalty still off the table? You say instead of putting them to death, they should be put in some craphole prison. Thing is, they are still guaranteed good treatment. They have to be fed. They have to be taken care of. How is treating them good like that, a punishment? Sure, they are kept away from society, most of their rights are taken away, but it simply is not punishment enough. If it were, there wouldn't be so many re-offenders, would there? Yes, former inmates do turn their lives around, but look at the current recidivism rates. 50-60%! Apparently prison isn't deterrent enough. Am I saying capital punishment for anything besides murder? HELL NO. Keep in mind, not all murders are capital murders. Not all murderers get life/death. Most get a couple of decades and are out again, to which some commit further crimes. Take this post for face value... don't read too deeply and think I am saying we need harsher punishment for minor crimes. -------------
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:08pm
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Individual cases are irrelevant. We can't say 'no death penalty except for this guy becuase we're sure he did it. We're always 'certain' someone did it when they're convicted; that's what beyond a reasonable doubt means. And yet, we still find people innocent later. We can't allow ourselves to be guided by emotions due to the notoriety of a certain person or case. One of the principles of common law is 'like cases, decided alike'. Who should one murderer get a different sentence than another just because the crime was a bit more grisly, or the figure a bit more public? The victim is still dead. There's no room for human emotionalism in the justice system, since that introduces an even greater degree of human flaw into the equation. The justice system should always be guided by what will have the best results for society. You've yet to tell me what the real difference to society is between a person being executed and a person being sentenced to life without parole. We'll never see the guy again in either case, and we're saving money by saving him to jail. Why bother killing him? ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:09pm
This would be a decent argument if there was any shred of proof for the connection between the two. -------------
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:11pm
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I'm rofl'ing. No, really, I am.
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:11pm
------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:13pm
You're kidding me right? You've never heard of the recidivism rate? Google it. -------------
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:16pm
There's a statistical link between longer prison sentences and recidivism, that's true. In fact, it's proven that longer prison sentences result in higher rates of reoffense, as the offender becomes more socialized with criminals, learns new crimes and new/better techniques of committing them, and loses touch with 'real' society and feels his/her options upon release slipping away. They go back to what they know and have learned behind bars. I'm making no comment about what should be done with sentences; that should be another thread, I don't want to derail this one. I'm simply telling you what the research is. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:18pm
| There is overwhelming research in the face of the death penalty. However, as long as people seek revenge instead of justice, we'll have to live with this archaic punishment. |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:19pm
...sigh... -------------
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:19pm
...or study it in school... ...sigh... ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:21pm
I don't exactly know who that was directed at. -------------
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:24pm
Oh, I'm just sighing along with you, and adding a small response to Linus. I think we're quite clearly on the same page here. Don't worry, you'd know if I were taking a shot at you.  ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:28pm
| Maybe I would be more apt to accept the death penalty if I was given something other than "they deserve to die." Like I'm going to let someone else's opinion convince me to back a flawed policy. |
Posted By: Brian Fellows
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:30pm
There also seems to be the misconception that prison is some sort of candyland where inmates get cake and ice cream for every meal, and the guards are gingerbread men. |
Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:31pm
I dunno about that... I think my generation is a lot less disciplined than older generations. Then again, my dad used to beat me with a belt for punishment. Funny, I never cried like a little girl that he was being "abusive". If you don't want to get spanked, don't misbehave. -------------
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