Alpha Black
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172847
Printed Date: 02 May 2024 at 7:55pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Alpha Black
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Subject: Alpha Black
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 11:54am
|
Alpha Black is the first maker from the Joint US Army and Tippmann Sports venture US Army Paintball. Real all about this affordable Tactical Entry Marker. http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172846&PN=1&TPN=1 - Alpha Black ------------- 
|
Replies:
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 11:56am
|
wait...i thought they were just joking about doing that? edit- its a smart marketing tool since a lot of people want that look, and its cheap...but i guess i just sort of have a problem with the army doing this, it's almost like they're trying to promote paintball as a 'war game'. Seems like a desperate attempt to recruit...i'd like to back up that accusation by pointing out the giant US ARMY logo. |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:00pm
| Kill me. Kill me now. |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:01pm
| Neato |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:07pm
|
It ain't got no alibi.
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell" 
|
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:07pm
|
Tippmann announces a new gun that will likely lead to expansion of paintball into new markets, and strengthen the Tippmann brand in the process, and you are upset why? ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
usafpilot07 wrote:Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:09pm
|
oh look, another 98 body variant. surprise surprise
------------- 
|
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:23pm
read my first post and thats exactly why. for me anyway |
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:25pm
|
Well, duh. That's the whole point. And this is bad why? ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:27pm
|
Looks like the are reaching out for another youth oriented marketing tool. I don't like it, for the same reason I refused to play America's Army. ------------- 
|
Posted By: sinisterNorth
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:31pm
------------- Pumpker'd; (V.) When a pump player runs up and shoots you at point blank range because you thought 20bps made you good. |
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:34pm
What did you expect for new players for well under $200. Come one this wasnt marketed for elite tourny masters this is a good reliable market made to get new players and recreational players into the sport. Tippmann inline bolt system is one of the most reliable in the sport why not use it on a marker that's marketed to get more people into the Sport. Add the DVD and the Web Content and you will have new players with a basic understanding of how to play game. This is a win situation for everyone. The more play the better the Hobby is for everyone. -------------
|
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:35pm
|
I think some of you are looking far too deeply into it to be honest. The company is putting out a new product. Its got promise in that its affordable, and customizable. I swear, some of you aren't happy unless you've got something to gripe about, and when there IS nothing, you'll go to great lengths to conjure up baby issues and make them into some earth shattering offense. Breath guys. Its a new paintball marker, little else. |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:38pm
I don't like that the Army is directly involved in marketing a mil-sim gun as a promotion to put their "business" in young people's minds. I worked all last year trying to help put a positive image on paintball, and things like this only make it worse when a news station decides to do an expose on the game. More than likely, it won't expand the market, only push more new players into non-profitable for local members of the paintball community renegade ball, with less safety. Not to mention the fact that it makes it even easier for a non-player to get his hands on a replica gun and use it for immature behavior like scaring people. Does the news ever care that the person wasn't even a player? No. Just that it was a paintball gun. Shame on the army for this tactic, and shame on Tippmann for stooping to this. |
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:45pm
with a fancy little US ARMY tag clearly printed on it. the 98c is an affordable, customizable marker too...I agree with USAF. i played on a field in Oklahoma last week where the ref explained to the new kids that paintball was a war simulator, and he got all PO'd when i called him on it. He didn't have an answer to "so what happens when you die here? you get respawned? does that work in real life too?" |
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:48pm
Ok maybee before you break out the soap box do some reaserch. The Markers are designed for newer players. Instead of picking up some Walmart sipder they can pick this up. The Marker comes bundled with a DVD and it has web support so that new players can learn paintball with the Values of the US Army. Such as Honor, Integrety. people will play outlaw reguardless of what Marker they use. So your logic is as flawed as to think that because it has Army on the Label that its going to turn the kids into maniacs. After all we all grew up with Army men and Cap guns w/ plastic badges yet no one us became vigilantes. What gives paintball a Negative Image isnt a Marker line developed with the Army is the ones who Vandalize and the ones who on ESPN or other Major Medial covered events cheat and throw Hissy fits. And even those are so rare now days that it's not even a issue anymore. -------------
|
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:50pm
|
Again, you're reading into it too deeply from where I stand. Tippmann, I doubt, is in league with the Army in a secret master plan to subvert all 14 year old paintball players and con them into joining the military. Wal*Mart sells camouflage T-shirts, why not chastise them for promoting the military and believing that they're trying to get kids into wearing these clothes so they can join the army? After all, if it has anything to do with the military, it HAS to be a recruiting and subversion scam right? Come on man. As for your problem with delinquents having access to replica markers, they're gonna use whatever the hell they can get their hands on, whether you're talking about an M4 knockup or a Talon that they dug out of a closet somewhere. You're essentially demonizing any paintball company who doesn't make flashy metallic paint hoses, and staring down your nose at those of us who like the 'wargame' setting. Climb off the pedestal and realize that there are many different facets to the game of paintball, and just because a company doesn't cater to yours, doesn't quite make them evil. |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:52pm
And thats how much different than the X-7 having the Spec Ops logo on it? I didn't hear much cry-babying over that one. But because its the army, there can't be anything good to come of it right? |
Posted By: impulse!
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:54pm
------------- 
|
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:55pm
|
That's the "simulator" part. What would you call woodsball OTHER than a war game/simulation? Just like COD4 and a zillion other video games, paintball allows us to play at war without the messy dying part. Kids play at war. Toys 'R' Us have shelves full of Army branded toys. This is no different. It is up to the parents to decide what is appropriate for their children. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:58pm
If something is designed/endorsed by the Army officially, and is marketed to a youth demographic, it is hard not to think it is for recruiting. They didn't make America's Army because they thought it would be nice for kids to have a nifty video game. Please note I am not on the same tract as USAF here. I am not in disagreement with the "direction" it will take paintball. Paintball is not seriouz bizness in my book, so I could care less if more people play outlaw ball. I play outlaw ball. I refuse to give swindling commercial fields a cent of my money. I also think the people who are so against paintball being associated with war games are pretty dumb. It is a game where people shoot stuff at other people, and when they get hit, they are out. The lines shouldn't need to be highlighted for you to see the game is one of combat simulation, no matter how hard you try to see it otherwise. I also am not trying to stand on a soapbox. I don't think this gun is a ZOMG TRAVESTY. I think it will probably be a solid entry level gun. My issue is that it is a bit too connected with the Army for my tastes, and I think that the Army using product marketing is a bit sketchy. -------------
|
Posted By: impulse!
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:59pm
Playing tag with paintballs? -------------
|
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:59pm
and EE, I don't think it's that we think it's going to turn kids into maniacs. It's more the fact that with the army branding any news coverage, good or bad, will probably mention a gun released in conjunction(though minimal I am sure) with the US army. This is turn will make parents want their kids to play less, because it looks like we are out to do war games and train for the army. The other smaller side of the sport(Tournaments) works hard to stray from the killer mentality. Right now the dude that owns the field I play for is having a hard time getting the town to allow him to expand his field from 5 man to 7 man size so we can practice right because it involves "guns". ------------- Que pasa? 
|
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:01pm
Spec Ops isn't an actual military force. -------------
|
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:05pm
|
Did anybody tell them? ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:06pm
If that was the case then as Susan Storm stated there would be no Market for Green Army Men, Toy guns, Toy planes and Tanks. Parrents arent as much Drama Lamma as tourney types when it comes to these things. They know their kids can make educated decitions later on on life. Impulse, if Paintball was done by touching some one with paintballs and popping them on them i'd agree. But since you have to Shoot to tag out your oponent then yeah is a sort of combat situation. -------------
|
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:07pm
Except that it has nothing in common with tag?
------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:09pm
-------------  irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: impulse!
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:11pm
Woods brought us in to this great sport. But now we need to part from it. -------------
|
Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:14pm
EE, you funny man, you. Thanks for making me laugh. I needed it. ------------- 
|
Posted By: tippmannfreak
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:15pm
| now i just have to convince the cadre to replace the rubber ducks with these...stx lanes may become un-pointless/rediculous... |
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:18pm
And that's your Opinion and your entitled to it. recreational Paintball is still the bigger half of the sport. Where you like it or not that's not going to change nor will the opinion of many players. This marker wasnt designed for the Tournament type played as stated numerous times. So if it doesnt affect you personally why be a malcontent? -------------
|
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:20pm
My father retired from the US Army. My father is among the best Americans I know. An outstanding citizen. Thou while no Marine it doesnt take away from his character. -------------
|
Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:43pm
I am talking about the current situation of the US Army. There is no honor or integrity in the current model of the US Army. Its a shame that I cannot walk into the PX on the weekend without seeing at least one Army RECRUIT stealing something.Its obivous that if the army values exist anymore they are not being thought to soldiers in boot camp... -------------
|
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:49pm
 and as for the X7- spec ops isn't a military organization. we tried telling them but they wouldn't listen. regardless, i have no problem with mil-sim markers (i do actually, but it's irrelavent to this argument) but i do have a problem with the army trying to get in on it all. i actually agree with whale, its the same as america's army was. Generally i don't mind the army recruiting, but i hate when they lurk high schools and do little things like this edit- susan- it's a game...its not a war simulator, and its not intended to gear kids up for war. do people use it for that? yes. should refs explain it to ten year old kids that its a war simulation? no |
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 2:20pm
|
And I do have some degree of sympathy for this position. But, nevertheless, we as a society have decided that encouraging 18-year-olds to join the military is a good thing, and that's not gonna happen unless we start marketing earlier. Changing our approach to recruiting would require a fundamental shift in the way we view the military. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 2:23pm
My own brother, a Specialist in the NYANG has made the same observations. They had a couple of guys from a barracks in NYC stealing flares. He also witnessed a mutiny when he was in Germany. Several guys in his own unit refused to do any work because it was raining. The officer in charge did nothing because he was bucking for promotion, and didn't care to have it on record that his men dediced not to work one day. |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 2:39pm
|
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 2:44pm
throughout history cases of wine and other goods have "fallen off the truck". i'm not saying its right, but its also not that recent of a thing. edit-thats a  of an officer. i would've given them a swift kick in the ass. |
Posted By: oreomann33
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 2:55pm
|
wh3re es teh snip3r rifle?
------------- 
|
Posted By: FlimFlam
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:05pm
|
Why is it the US military's marketing campaign is so much more nefarious than the other 1000+ marketing campaigns that kids and adults alike view every week? ------------- 
|
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:10pm
|
My only gripe with it is it's ugliness.
------------- 
|
Posted By: Ace_Of_Spades
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:11pm
|
haha i was gunna say the same thing ------------- 
J. Thompson #5150- http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2945831 - Happiness Is A Tupperware Fed Weapon |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:11pm
You don't get shot at for buying into a Mountain Dew commercial? |
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:14pm
And after the rest of them would had finished beating you down you would have realized that the best kind of Leadership is 'Lead by Example' I never asked my guys to do anything that I wouldnt do myself. Where it was picking up trash with them to scrubbing the common area bathrooms. You be surpriced how much you can get done with Team Work and Respect. There are bad apples in everybunch. Even the Corps we had an NCO kill a Lance Corpoal that was having his child to hide a sexual assault charge. While we can concentrate in a few bad apples I can find everyday Thousands of exaples of bravery and dedication to one's country and acts of selflesness. These Virtues are not only common to men in the Armed Forces but a Human trait that I wish was exercized more often. -------------
|
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:16pm
No but lead kids to belive that Drinking MtDew makes them Extreme Sportsmen that they can do Extreme Jumps on BMX bikes. Falling off a Halfpipe and getting hit a paintball ... I'll take the paintball hit. -------------
|
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:25pm
I don't know how to put it in any different kind of perspective/english for you. Marketing: Mountain= Extreme Sports Army= Supreme Action pumped up safety Action: Mountain Dew= Soda Army= Getting shot at Paintball= Paintball? You can't take the Marketing idea from Mountain Dew, and then compare it to the actual action of the Army vs Paintball. |
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:33pm
I understand but the Armed Forces isnt all "Getting Shot at" I dont know if you know but we have an all Volunteer Armed forces. when you Enlist you get to choose the MOS Military Occupation Field that you want. there is no current Draft. While I choose the Combat Arms of the United States Marine Corps I had friends who had other MOS and never deployed nor are in any more harm that you are as an American. Look at Snake ask him when was the last time he was "Shot at" -------------
|
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:41pm
Snake got stationed at a non-deployable position. Choosing an MOS is a joke now, as they can do whatever they want after you sign your papers. |
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:46pm
Actually no they can't. only if you go on an 'Open' contract. Please come back when you have some facts to back up what your saying. The only thing they have control for what duty station you have and there are Hundreds of Thousands Servive men that are in Non Deployable Positions or deployed in rear garrison areas. -------------
|
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:56pm
You know what, you're right. I pulled that out of my ass. I never went and talked to recruiters in high school, or took JROTC for 4 years. Damn you're insightful. |
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:57pm
Or that it was a crappy game...
You certainly don't, you get http://www.ionizers.org/soft-drinks.html - http:/www.ionizers.org/soft-drinks.html It looks quite nice I must say. There a couple things that I would have liked to see on an all m16 style marker but it looks pretty good. Any clue on the upgradability or is this going to go the way of the triumph? |
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 4:03pm
i agree with lead by example, but if your doing it and they still refuse, that's when you have to get tougher about it. i dont necessarily mean beat the crap out of them, or hit them. swift kick in the ass isn't exactly the action to take, i'll agree i was wrong on that. but if your running a platoon and one squad doesn't want to do jack, and i have to delegate the work to the other squads, those troops in the remaining 3 squads are going to be pretty PO'd. as for the useless bunch, i guess they would have to just get a negative report and sleep with one eye open in the barracks |
Posted By: FlimFlam
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 4:31pm
|
Well, motor vehicles kill a lot people every year too. We should probably stop advertising them as well... -------------
|
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 5:14pm
Well there's a perfect correlation.  |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 5:36pm
|
Wow, the random comments comparing Mountain Dew and Motor vehicles to this are ridiculous.
------------- Que pasa?
|
Posted By: PaiNTbALLfReNzY
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 5:42pm
autofail |
Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 6:06pm
EE, I have to agree with USAF on this one. I originally signed up to be a 2111 Armorer, the day I shipped to boot I was told I wasn't going to be an armorer, I was going to be a combat engineer. When I graduated MCT I was told I was going to this hellhole to be a Heavy Equipment Operator, and then I was told I was going to be stationed at Lejiune. I'm still here, and I working on computers now because thats where the corps needs me. The corps is going to put you where they need you. -------------
|
Posted By: mamasboi
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 7:41pm
| well at least its better that the triumph |
Posted By: Brian Fellows
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 1:10am
| Better that the Triumph what? |
Posted By: FlimFlam
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 9:09am
That was the point. Your contention is as absurd as mine. If you honestly think that a US Army logo on a paintball gun is going to cause anyone, who otherwise might not have joined the military, to join, then I think you are mistaken. There's plenty of milsim guns out there now, and as far as I know we haven't seen a surge in those joinging the military since Spec Ops showed up on the paintball scene... -------------
|
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 9:43am
Consequence. -------------
|
Posted By: Xscout
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:13am
|
Awesome...a low-end relatively inexpensive marker with enough upgrades to get to 15bps, looks like an AR15, and has Tippmanns quality and near indestructibility. win/win Add in a nice promotional tool for Army recruitment, and it just gets better. As a kid, I would have eaten this up with a spoon...as an adult and Combat Veteran of the US Army, I'll look into buying one of these for my daughter, so that she will stop borrowing my old m98. If you namby-pamby pissants think this is going to convince a kid to go join the Army, you are living in a dream world...but it just might assist a kid in taking a little time to learn tactics, work as a team, and if they are so inclined, look into a military job after HS. The DvD and web content is a brilliant idea. -------------  http://tacticalpaintball.freeforums.org">
|
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 11:28am
That may be the fastest negation I have ever seen. I would like to refute your opinion, if I knew what it was... -------------
|
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 11:41am
Dammit whale, I was in the process of doing that. |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 12:36pm
QFT. The Army's job is to kill people in the name of America, not entertain children. I'm sure they're not doing this as community service either. ------------- 
|
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 12:51pm
|
basically anything the army does in regard to the general public has to do with either recruiting or providing direct support to natural disaster areas. whether you or the army admits it, it's a recruiting tool. not saying it won't be a decent marker, but its a recruiting tool edit- this is right from their ABOUT section " To make the most of your game, download the http://www.usarmypaintball.com/pdf/army_field_guide.pdf - U.S. Army Paintball Field Guide , which includes tips for playing your best, provides instructions on how to build a mission the same way as the U.S. Army, and offers an overview of the values all soldiers learn during Basic Combat Training." missions? whatever happened to capture the flag and total elimination? |
Posted By: FlimFlam
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 1:39pm
|
Who's denying that it has a recruiting marketing campaign at the heart of it? Again, I ask, what is wrong with this? Whether it's the America's Army video game or paintball marker with a US Army logo on it, what's the harm? Do you really think that an 18 yr old man or woman can't seperate a video game or paintball marker from the reality of the armed forces?!? "Gee well I played the game and it was cool. Surely real bullets flying at me can't be much different... Surey I can still respawn if I get shot." I mean, come on, really... You all act as if it is some horrific thing that someone may actually "want" to join the armed forces. I just don't see what your complaint is here... -------------
|
Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 1:41pm
And if they are truly that much of a dolt, is it really the fault of the Army's "Sly" recruiting pitches? 
|
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 1:54pm
| no, but people do get false ideas about what it would be like. and who's to say they're targeting people as old as 18? whos to say they aren't targeting lower age groups who don't really know the difference |
Posted By: zepper
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:00pm
| http://usarmypaintball.com/ - http://usarmypaintball.com/ |
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:01pm
|
Clearly the military targets their recruiting efforts at kids - if not with paintball then with toys. But everybody targets kids. This is only bad if the underlying subject matter is bad. In order for your position to make sense, you must believe that joining the military is itself something bad, and many people will disagree with that. As a society we have decided that joining the military is a noble pursuit. As a result, marketing the military to children is ok. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:29pm
do i have a problem with joining the army? no. i did; i'm a cadet. what i have a problem with is recruiters and the army in general doing things like this to make kids think thats its all cool and fun and games. |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:30pm
Which is why I reserve from saying that the marketing is "bad." I don't think joining the military is bad, not at all, but something about using things like toys and video games to target the youth seems a bit wrong to me. I know, rationalizing an opinion on gut feeling is never good. I just cannot help but wonder if we want a military of people who joined because they thought the video game was neat. -------------
|
Posted By: FlimFlam
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:34pm
|
First, hopefully that was tongue in cheek... What "toys" would you be referring to that the military is targeting kids with? I'm pretty sure that cap guns and (with the exception of one) video games are made by private corporations. I don't think Hasbro consults with the military on their plastic toy guns. Second, of course this is marketed towards a younger crowd. However, that crowd has to grow up before they get to make the decision to join. Additionally, see Shorty's post above... -------------
|
Posted By: ctiani
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:37pm
I'm more worried about those who play the video game because they think KILLING is neat. |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:38pm
Why? -------------
|
Posted By: ctiani
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:45pm
|
Didn't think i would really need to justify why one should be worried about people who think killing is "neat..." i don't think that marketing these products to an audience that is known to already be interested in similar things is too much of a sin. It would seem there are at least efforts in place on the website and in the manuals to broadcast and instill some good values like leadership and teamwork, rather than just violence and gunslinging. if this gun were around when i bought my spyder about 10 years ago, i would've hopped right on it. especially after seeing the awesome website. |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:52pm
1) I play a videogame because I think the subject matter of the game is indeed neat. I play NCAA 08 (awesome by the way) because I like simulation of playing college football. Much in the same way, I play Grand Theft Auto because I like the simulation of being a criminal. I think it is neat. Now the distinction is, would I go and hijack a car and shoot my way out of a chase with the police? That is probably just as likely as me playing actual college football. 2) So the Army marketing paintball guns to a demographic known to enjoy shooting and simulated combat is good, but videogames doing the same thing is bad? -------------
|
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:53pm
Not toungue in cheek. Broadly stated, perhaps. Whether the military is actively involved in licensing efforts with Hasbro I do not know. But I think it relatively clear that the military condones the use of their imagery in toys. More generally, the military IS actively involved in children's entertainment, such as movies and television, by lending materiel and manpower to those efforts. But my point was rather broader than that - Hasbro's toys reflect the societal sentiment that playing soldier is a suitable activity for a grade-schooler. And if society says that grade-schoolers can play army, then why should not teenagers?
In other words, you object to a marketing campaign that does not comport to YOUR vision of the military. It isn't very difficult to find people who DO in fact think that the Army is all cool and fun and games. All but the most delusioned realize that there are other aspects as well, but the paintball analogy is not very far from the perception of many veterans. Same for TKD - The reason you feel uneasy about the marketing campaign directed at the kids is because you have reservations about the military. As a society we indoctrinate our kids with our values. Some values are more or less unanimous, others less so. This is one of those values that is held by many, but not all. I know several parents that buy their kids military-inspired toys all the time, and actively encourage them to play soldier. These are not fringe parents, but normal every-day folk. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: ctiani
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 2:57pm
|
First off, i hadn't stated anything about YOU playing video games, or video games and their marketing. It was a statement about the people who DO play games like GTA specifically because they DO think killing is neat. Sorry if my response was confusing. Second, No it's not bad for video games OR tippmann, OR the U.S. Army to market to a demographic that interested in their products and other products that are similar. I didn't say that. I think it's smart advertising, and will be successful, just like the marketing of certain video games. Again, sorry if my other post was confusing. |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:01pm
Not necessarily. I have reservations about marketing I see as sketchy. I hated the college promoters that would come to our high-school and would buy pizzas for people who would come listen to their spiel about how their college was the best. That includes the place I currently go to now. I am obviously not harboring any reservations about college. -------------
|
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:02pm
|
All six of them? I feel pretty confident when I claim that there are not a lot of people who play video games because they think killing is neat. Play-killing can be neat. Dodging play-bullets can be neat. Shooting play-bullets back can be neat. All good reasons to play video games. But I just don't see any particularly relationship between play-killing in video games and a view that actual killing is neat. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: ctiani
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:06pm
|
Correct. There aren't alot of them out there, but i would be worried about them if i knew them. You stated my point, which is that there aren't alot of people who go and join the army because they think "play-killing" (i.e. paintball) is "neat." it's a great demographic, and a great market for this product. i think it's going to be good for the paintball industry, and could make a pretty nice rental marker as well. |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:20pm
|
Ah, now I understand. Any marketing with recruitment in mind erases any and all conscious thought and eliminates the ability to make decisions for yourself. As soon as kids see that little star on the side of their marker, it'll be "YVAN EHT NIOJ" all over again. I just had a thought while I was trying to be clever. What if, rather than The Army using paintball to attract recruits, Tippmann is using the Army to attract customers? Is that just as nefarious? What evidence do we have that this isn't the case? Aren't our conclusions here based strictly on assumptions regardless of how we look at it, since none of us have the inside dirt on either the Army's recruitment organization, or Tippmann's advertising department? Again, I state that some of us aren't content unless we have something to whine about, and this gives us plenty if we twist the living hell out of it, and make all kinds of fun assumptions. |
Posted By: ctiani
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:24pm
|
zing pow. good analysis. |
Posted By: +DreX+
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:40pm
|
Okay, after doing a stint as a Tech Support Volunteer For the Americas Army Videogame, I have come to several conclusions. If you do not believe me, Visit their forums and Private message a moderator; I will provide User names if you still do not believe me. First, That almost everyone who came into Tech Support had issues speaking English -> There is a large market overseas; Second, The only reason people play it is because It's free; What gamer turns down a free Video Game, even if they just try it? BK marketed through Video Games; Counter Strike Source even had sponsors pay in to display ads on maps. All I'm saying is that Not all of the players of americas army are 13 year old boys. Edit: You do know that the Army does not directly develop the game? The developers are private, via Pragmatic Solutions, and Before that I forget it was that long ago; Back when AA IRC was on Homelan.net ------------- Insert Fail Here |
Posted By: ctiani
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:42pm
| I used to play it with a group 21+ only guys, and the majority of the 15 of us were between 35 and 40. |
Posted By: +DreX+
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:46pm
And back to your question, did you play because you thought killing was neat? ------------- Insert Fail Here |
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:48pm
|
And can you figure out what upsets you about these recruiters? ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: ctiani
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:48pm
|
Nah, i played because it was FREE and relatively well done, and ran well on my machine... kind of like the equivalent of a reliable, cheap paintball gun that has a realism based theme... cough cough |
Posted By: +DreX+
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:50pm
I win. /thread ------------- Insert Fail Here |
Posted By: FlimFlam
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:55pm
|
Be careful MBD, I think Dr. Storm charges by the post... -------------
|
Posted By: ctiani
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:55pm
Maybe you should go back through the posts and try to comprehend them a little better. Find the point where i stated anything negative about video games (not the rare number of wackos that get twisted by the violence in them, but the games themselves), or find the part where i asked a question... wow, wierd... nothing there is there. you proved MY point that this gun marketed by tippmann and the army is not going to be the sole reason for someone to "accidently" join the army because they think it's cool, like playing paintball. go flame someone else bud, you can't read. |
Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 4:01pm
|
I have to agree with whale on this one. I think joining the armed forces is a great and honorable thing to do as a citizen of the US, but recruiting propaganda should not be ground into children's heads at the age of 12-13. At this point in a persons life they are very impressionable to marketing propaganda. Recruiting should be directed to people age 17-18 when you are old enough to know the alternatives, and the impact on the rest of your life this decision will have. At that age that you can make a conscious decision about what you are doing. I'm sorry, but a 12-13 year old kid doesn't really understand the difference between a game and real war, they do not understand the consequences of their actions, and should not be spoon fed propaganda of this nature. It takes alot of the choice away from them, and makes them think that war is just a big game. The last thing I want in a fighting hole next to me is a kid, fresh out of boot who joined because he was brainwashed into it, and then he realized after he had been in 5 months that this was not the right place for him. -------------
|
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 4:23pm
The way I think of it is that most kids by 17-18 allready know what they are going to do for a living. If the army does not advertise to them earlier on, they will choose a different career path. This can be used to inform them that there is a career in the army waiting for them if they dicide to do so someday. I think that the last thing you really want is the kid right next to you in the foxhole that joined because they couldn't think of anything else to do after high school and are realizing that they have made the wrong decision. Marketing to an earlier age will give them a chance to see the oppurtunities that they can find in the army so that they can make an imformed decision later on in life. |
Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 4:33pm
I disagree. You don't see colleges or jobs marketing to the 12-13 year old demographic do you? I am sure that the commercials that are on TV constantly on TV are more than enough to let people know that the army is there. The fact of the matter is that this a tool to make kids think that war is somehow related to a game, which it is not. This at best a shady recruiting mechanism and I disagree with this move wholeheartedly. -------------
|
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 4:41pm
What about video games and toys based on aviation, firefighting, and police officers? |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 4:56pm
Col. Dave Grossmann devotes most of a chapter in On Combat to this exact phenomenon- and actually does demonstrate that there is a significant correlation between violence in society and violent media and video games. I believe he has another book out precisely covering the subject, but I'm not certain. You may want to find a copy of On Combat and read the applicable chapter, though. You'll likely find it enlightening. It certainly swayed me form the 'video games are pretty harmless' category. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 5:00pm
That they used products and enticement to get their point across. They were trying to ingrain in you that "Hey, this was the school that got me pizza." -------------
|