I enjoy shootin people at long range i got the ghillie suit and soon going to be getting a ghillie kit for my new marker whichever i choose, i want to know if the 98 custom is better for sniping or if the A-5 is... the flatline icreases range by 100ft atleast, but will a 16 inch sniper barrel do the same but better acuracy.. I'm not sure of what

me and my friends play the team based with alot of army tactics and we get our ideas usually from video games that wev played example call of duty 4 modern warfare, woodsball is what we like best considering we cant get ahold of any abandoned buidings to play in or anything haha

After reading a few of the other posts on the forum you might want to stay away from the word sniper.  It doesn't really matter what you do to your marker you aren't going to get the old "one shot one kill".  I have my marker set up to shoot up to 25 to 30 yards max with any kind of accuracy, and that means if I hit my target anywhere near where I was aiming I am happy.

Welcome to the forum.

All barrels shoot the same distance, except for the Flatline and the Apex. 

The "sniper barrel" is just a longer stock barrel, and is not particularly good.

Barrel length does not affect range.

Some people here get their panties in a bunch whenever you say "sniper".

Read this and learn.

The History of Military Sniping, and how it relates to the Game of Paintball.

Ok. So I got bored, and I am sick and tried of this stupid sniper debate. I got a Barnes and Noble gift card for Christmas, and didn’t know what else to get so I picked up several books on Military Snipers. Here are my findings.

< -- Note: Due to a problem with my code, you have to Highlight my rifle comparison tables to see them. It’s a bother, but if someone knows how to fix it, PM me. -- >

First lets go over the basics of what a sniper is, and what a sniper is not.

“A sniper…is considered a specialist, whose prime function is to kill selected high value targets at long range using superior skill and armament. A sharpshooter, by contrast, is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Keep this in your mind as you read the rest of the article.

The American Revolution (1775-83)

Sniping first came onto the battlefield during the American Revolution. Standard infantry of this period were equipped with “Brown Bess” smoothbore muskets. The Continental Congress approves 10 independent companies, armed with long rifles. The men of these companies were the first snipers.

Comparison between the “Brown Bess” musket, and the Long Rifle.

“A soldiers musket, if not exceedingly ill bored (as many are), will strike the figure of a man at 80 yards: it may even at 100, but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, provided that the antagonist aims at him; as to firing at a man at 200 yards, with a common, musket, you might as well fire at the moon.” –British Major Hanger, on the “Brown Bess” musket

 In contrast, the American Long Rifle (as carried by the Irregular companies), was effective in ranges up to 300 yards, and headshots could be achieved at 200. At these ranges American Snipers picked-off high ranking British Officers. During the battle of Saratoga an American sniper brought down British General Simon Frasier from a range of 300 yards. Despite its advantages the long rifle had several disadvantages. Its slow reload time(2 shots a minute), and lack of bayonet fixture made it useful only as a skirmisher weapon, not for use as a standard infantry weapon.

As you can see from the table, the Rifle outranged the common muskets of the time by over 200 yards. Also the muzzle velocity of the Rifle was much higher than that of the Brown Bess.

American Civil War (1861-65)

During the Civil War, the standard infantry rifles were the Enfield(for the south), and the Springfield(for the north). These were muzzleloading rifles with effective ranges up to 500 yards. The confederacy managed to acquire Witworth and Kerr rifles from Europe for their snipers. These rifles had an effective range of well over 1200 yards, and hits were reported at over 1500 yards.

Confederate Snipers were selected in a manner which has been used to select snipers in most present wars. The best men from each infantry regiment entered into shooting competitions. They were required to hit man-sized boards at 500 yards. The best shooters were given the prized Kerr and Witworth rifles. They then went through extensive training in the use of these rifles.

The snipers were warned never to get within 400 yards of the enemy, but to use their superior range, to keep the enemy at a safe distance.

World War I (1914-18)

US Snipers during World War I used modified, and accurized versions of  the standard service rifle the Springfield 1903, equipped with 2 to 4 power scopes. Snipers during the war mostly sniped from behind the MLR, the main trench line. These snipers were Infantrymen taken off the line, and equipped with scoped rifles. With their rifles they could pick the enemy off 3 or 4 trench lines back from the MLR. The marksmanship standard for infantry of the time was to be able to hit a standing man from around 100 yards. The snipers were trained to hit targets from over 500 yards.

World War II (1938-45)

World War II snipers were selected in different manners during the war. I will concentrate on the Marine Corps Snipers trained at Green’s Farm because the documentation of this school and its snipers is the best. There, snipers were instructed in 5 week courses in marksmanship, camouflage, and field craft. They were trained to approach a target using stealth and to eliminate the target from long distances. These snipers were required to hit a moving target at 500 yards, and to hit a stationary target at 1000. They were equipped much the same way as snipers in WWI were. These snipers used accurized versions of the M1903 Springfield service rifle, the A1 or A3 variants equipped with 2 or 4 power scopes. Marine Infantry qualified at 500 yards.

Korea (1950-53)

Korea, in the latter part of the war turned into a bogged down war of attrition, looking somewhat like the trench warfare of WWI. This, alongside Korea’s terrain of rolling hills combined to make it prime sniper territory. Sniping tactics in Korea did not change much from the tactics of WWII so I will not elaborate on them. The rifles also remained the same. Snipers in Korea were equipped with 1903A3 Variant Springfield’s, and National Match M1’s(which were used in competition shooting because they were more accurate than the standard M1) Equipped with 4 power scopes(the M1D model). The accuracy of the M1 was not as good as that of the Springfield, due to the need to offset the scope, and have major Eye Relief built-in to the rifle due to the Clip Feed of the M1. These M1’s still were able to reach ranges of 500 yards accurately. In Korea the use of the .50 caliber round for sniping was first seen. M2 Machine Guns mounted with a 10 power scope were able to reach ranges of 2800 yards effectively, Snipers also experimented with .55 Caliber Boy’s antitank rifles modified to take .50 caliber rounds, and mounted with scopes which had the same range as the M2, but was able to be carried by a man whereas the M2’s were limited to fixed positions.

Vietnam (1965-75)

Vietnam is the perfect example of how a sniper can be employed during combat. The restrictive ROE and vast open fields and rice paddy’s of Vietnam became prime sniper territory. The Marine Corps and the Army both Fielded Snipers. Army snipers were equipped with accurized versions of the M14 service rifle, accurate out to 700 yards. The Marine Corps fielded snipers equipped with Winchester Model 70 Hunting rifles firing the .30-06 cartridge, and later in the war snipers carried the M40, which fired the standard 7.62x51mm(.308) cartridge both of these rifles had an effective range of over 1000 yards. Also snipers used modified M2 .50 caliber machine guns, fitted with scopes. These were accurate to ranges out to 2500 yards. Normal infantry of the time fired the M16 Assault Rifle, and the enemy fired the AK-47 assault rifle. These rifles were designed for infantry combat which takes place in ranges of only around 200 yards, and can only be fired accurately up to 500 yards. Thus snipers were able to operate with impunity from beyond the range of effective return fire of the enemy.

Now through all these wars several things have remained in common among snipers, lets analyze these facts:

A sniper acts independently from standard infantry, not as a part of a unit but in a one or two man team.

This is possible in paintball, most of the time in scenario games, I am alone behind enemy lines trying to accomplish a mission. But you do very little if any tactical good for your team waiting in one spot for an entire game, hoping a target of high-value (such as the opposing general) walks by.

A sniper does not act at random, he selects targets of high value and eliminates them.

Targets of High Value in a military sense are:

1. Officers:
• Generals
• Field Grade officers
• Company Grade officers
2. Forward Observers
3. Crew Served Weaponry:
• Heavy Machine Guns
• Artillery Batteries
• Mortar Crews
4. Non Commissioned Officers
5. Radiomen

Targets of High Value in a paintball scenario game:

1. Generals
2. Tank Crewman (if there are tanks)
3. Um…. Yeah… that’s all I can think of...

The problem with selecting high value targets in a scenario paintball game is, there are very few. The vast majority of players play independently, not under any command and they do what they want. What officers and team captains there are do not look any different than any other players.

The Sniper fires at targets from beyond the range of return fire by the standard infantry weapons, or from distances that were beyond the training of the normal infantryman.

As you can see from the diagrams of the Sniper Rifles of the Period in comparison to the standard issue infantry weapons, the sniper rifle always has a great deal more range than infantry weapons, and the sniper has been trained to an accuracy standard that is beyond that of standard infantry training.

This is where sniping in paintball fails. All paintball markers except those equipped with the Flatline or Apex systems fire the same distance, around 25 yards or 75 feet. The Flatline will reach ranges of up to 150 ft, but because the ball loses velocity at the same rate as a normal paintball, the chances of getting a break, or a single accurate shot at those ranges are close to zero.

The sniper uses a single accurate shot to take his targets down.

The ammunition expended to kill ratio of a sniper in Vietnam was 1.7 rounds per kill. The average infantryman expended 50,000 rounds per confirmed kill.

It is possible to take targets down with a single shot in paintball. However it is near impossible to eliminate a target with a single shot from beyond the effective range of return fire by the enemy.  Paintballs are imperfect by nature, therefore they do not fly consistently enough every shot to make it possible to get anywhere close to the 1.7 rounds per kill ratio that snipers enjoy.

A sniper uses camouflage and concealment to hide himself from his enemies to eliminate his targets.

No qualms with this, it can be done. Most every scenario paintball player does it. Using camouflage doe not make you a sniper.

Now as you can see there are several places where sniping fails in paintball. Now look at the definition of a Sharpshooter:

“A sharpshooter… is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Ok, this looks a little more feasible in the game of paintball than the sniper definition doesn’t it?

For paintball purposes we can strike rifleman, because there are no rifles in paintball.

“who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

This sounds feasible. The definition of a sniper that Spec Ops puts forth is one of an “ambush player” that fires from concealment, using camouflage. The problem with the Spec Ops definition of a sniper is that it perfectly describes the definition of a sharpshooter in a military sense.

Therefore the definition of a sharpshooter or Designated Marksman fits a lot better in paintball doesn’t it?

A sharpshooter takes shots from concealment, shoots at targets as the opportunity arises, and uses a marker that has the same range as everyone else’s. He works with a squad with tactically sound techniques, and is employed in a nature in which he can function both as a full armed and operational squad member and a Designated Marksman. This is not a Sniper. This is a sharpshooter. As stated before simple ballistics prevent one from being a sniper in paintball.

A sharpshooter or DM moves with the squad, engaging targets like a normal member of the squad until his precision shooting skills are called upon. A DM would have intimate knowledge of his marker (a good marker for this type of thing would be a high end electro, {because higher end guns are inherently more accurate than a lower end gun} and a good barrel kit, not a Flatline of Apex system as these are known for not being accurate at range), and range limitations, at which point he would be able take precision shots on his target at a longer range than most players would be able to accurately shoot. While he is doing the rest of the team would be laying down suppressing fire as to not allow the DM to be effectively engaged.

The fact of the matter is if you think you are a sniper in paintball, you are wrong. The skillset of a sharpshooter or DM, fits paintball a lot closer that the skillset of a sniper. It is also a hell of a lot more effective than taking pot shots at people while camping behind a bush at 200ft and hoping you hit something.

 But for those of you who insist that you are still snipers, look at an analogy: You work for a living. Your job is to go to people’s houses and businesses, to pick up their trash and take it to the dump. You drive a Garbage Truck. What would you be called, a Garbage Man, or a Professional Truck Driver?

You would be called a Garbage Man, would you not? As much as you would prefer to be called a Professional Truck Driver, everyone would call you a Garbage Man because it fits what you are doing better than the title Professional Truck Driver does.

The skillset of Sharpshooter, or a Designated Marksman is 100% more feasible in paintball than sniping is. Stop fooling yourself.

References:

SNIPER- Adrian Gilbert

One Shot-One Kill- Charles W. Sasser and Craig Roberts

Marine Sniper- Charles Henderson

Authors Note: In my haste of writing this, I may have gotten some minor facts mixed up, or in the wrong place. Please contact me with the correct info if you have something to add, or a correction.

K well i want to be able to make the 30-40 yard shots and also be able to engage in somewhat close woods fire fights, and im thinking that the apex barrel if it doesnt decrease the range of the gun by much would be a good choice, any opinions on the apex barrel?

allright one last question, being able to curve the balls to shoot around trees and such, how good does that work with the appex, is it worth purchasing an appex for... i plan on being the person who sneaks around to say the side of the person or behind them while my other teamates keep them at bay and being able to shoot around trees so it makes it even harder for them to retaliate just seems like a really good aspect and could give the game just that little extra hell yeah for my team and stuff you know what im sayin?

very true so appex definately isnt such a great idea, and the flatline barrel, whats your input on that?

I've already mentioned this in another thread, but the BT Apex's flatline effect is inferior to the Flatline.  You can't shoot on your belly or other 'close to the ground' scenarios because the Apex shots dip down before the paintball levels out into it's flatline trajectory.  The Apex's ability to curve around trees or other obstacles doesn't work as advertised.  I've tried it with various tip settings and velocities.  I've even set up targets behind trees and rarely it them.  Now, the drop shot by the Apex WORKS and it works beautifully!  I have gotten many hits on people that were behind low brush or other physical barricades.  They thought somebody either shot them from behind or above them.  This is the only reason I use the Apex.  If I do need to shoot for distance, I'll swap it out for my trusty Flatline.  I can shoot from more positions that I never could with the Apex.

I remember at my first scenario, I ran out of air, and some kid I met was out of paint (and was out). He had a 98c with a Flatty on it, and said I could use it. Boy, that thing was nice. I'm not exaggerating when I tell the following story: I was on the field, and a unit of the opposing force were casually walking to their positions, thinking they were out of range. I opened up on them (didn't get any eliminations, sadly) but let's just say they quickly decided to up their paces a bit.

Anyway, I was very impressed with the Flatline's performance. Never used an Apex though.

carl_the_sniper wrote: If you are considering the flatline at all, go with the apex. It is better in every way.

• Neither of these barrels should be your primary barrel.  If you can only afford a single after-market barrel get a J&J or an Lapco Bigshot.
• If you must have a Flatline or Apex, see if you can get the opportunity to test them in play before purchase.  They really are a love/hate type of thing.
• Some people even detest both of them.
  

the gun i bought comes with a 32 degrees whisper barrel i think the name of it was, looks like a 14" maybe, he didnt say....  but i dont think range should be a problem, more range the better yes but in woodsball trees dont allways sit the way you want them to.

does the appex barrels ability to curve the paint actually work when used correctly

carl_the_sniper wrote: Just wondering, name a way that the flatline is better.

I like the way I can actually hold my marker level when I fire it.  I can do that with my Apex, but I have to have the flatline level set to a bare minimum if not almost off.  About 6 clicks on the Apex tip roughly equals the Flatline barrel.  But I have to point the marker up.  If I don't, ball dips and hits the ground about 30' in front of me. 

Mack wrote: carl_the_sniper wrote: Mack wrote: carl_the_sniper wrote: Just wondering, name a way that the flatline is better. Knowing exactly how the next shot is going to perform without worrying that you might have to readjust the spin setting on the tip. Then set it to just past halfway and leave it there. That wasn't really a reason why it is better. That kind of defeats the purpose of buying something that is adjustable doesn't it? Second reason: Can fire over wide cover with less exposure.  (Because you have to get higher out of cover to avoid the initial dip causing your paint to break on your own cover right in front of you with the APEX.)

Yeah, I kind of covered that with my initial post.  You said far more eloquently. 

For straight/far shooting, I also prefer the Flatline to the Apex.  With the Flatline, you point and shoot.  When the ball exits the barrel it is aimed at your target.  With the Apex you have to elevate, which throws off my aim.  Even if I never change the Apex settings, it ain't natural to point your gun in one direction to shoot in another direction.  The Flatline is far more intuitive, and therefore easier to hit people with.

Carl - I own an Apex.  And a Flatline.  Actually, I own two Flatlines.

It is simple physics based on barrel design.  The Apex starts out straight, then curves at the end (in whatever direction).  The Flatline starts out uphill, the curves back to flat.

We aren't talking about trajectory, but where you point the gun.  If you want to do a divebomb, for instance, you don't point your gun at the bunker you are trying to shoot over - you point the gun at the ground.  Ditto for any other type of curve.  Because the Apex starts out straight, the curve at the end changes the exit direction of the ball as well as the spin.  The result of this is that you have to point the gun in non-intuitive directions, even before you get to the spin.

This is most visible with the side hooks.  Set the thing to max right hook, and then watch as the ball leaves your barrel headed about 30* to the left.

This makes "flatline mode" very difficult to aim for us barrel-aimers, since there is little relationship between where the barrel is pointed and where the ball is going.  The trajectory may be flat, but it isn't in the expected direction.

I found the Apex very interesting and lots of fun, but strictly specialty.  I prefer to put it on only for certain fields, with specific spots in mind.  The Flatline I can play with all day in any situation.