Scenario >>>>>>> mil-sim.

And he didn't really cuss, I assume. Just said something which is now edited...

So you use an alternate form of a blocked word? Dummy.

I appreciate both kinds, granted weighing down your marker serves no significant purpose and wearing pounds of BDU's, boots, vests, gloves etc is just for show (unless you banking on molding with the foilage around you)  BUT some would say it's part of the fun! and that's what paintball is all about, having a good time, and if dressing up is a certain aspect of it, then... a votre gout!

I also like the lightness of speedball clothing and guns.

don't let people tell you milsim and paintball don't mix. lets not forget many gvt forces use milsim and scenario paintball for training purposes.

ah, you've misunderstood once again, it's alright, i'll explain.

I never said as a primary tool, but you must be aware of the US ARMY, SAS, Greek Forces, GSF and others in Europe...which have used, and still do whether it be for team communications, forced entry tactics, dealing with incoming fire etc. 

lets not forget the 'paintball terrorists' (I joke) 

 all these (and i'm sure plenty more) utilize paintball as a small part in their tactical training using not regular paintballs, but 'simunitions' if you will.

I've taken the liberty to move the milsim + military training part to the 'thoughts and opinions' board.  Have a read, i think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Snake6 wrote: kungura wrote: ah, you've misunderstood once again, it's alright, i'll explain. I never said as a primary tool, but you must be aware of the US ARMY, SAS, Greek Forces, GSF and others in Europe...which have used, and still do whether it be for team communications, forced entry tactics, dealing with incoming fire etc.  lets not forget the 'paintball terrorists' (I joke)   all these (and i'm sure plenty more) utilize paintball as a small part in their tactical training using not regular paintballs, but 'simunitions' if you will.   Simunitions  are not paintball, they are a completely different animal and in no way do they even come close to resembling paintball. Real paintball markers are rarely ever used used in training because of the inherent flaws that are associated with paintball. The few times they were used in the US military were in testbed environments where paintball was being evaluated to see if it could be used as a effective training tool. In most cases it was not proven as a effective method. Don't go making sweeping generalizations when you don't know what the reality of what you are talking about is.

Actually they still do..... Buddy got back from SWAT training for Security Forces. They used paintball for his first stage, then follow into simunitions.

So don't think you know everything because your in the military. There is more than one branch of the military.

BDU's, a vest, and boots do not make you milsim, IMO.

I wear BDU's, a vest, and boots for multiple reasons. BDU's  and boots because my local fields are nightmares with rocks, thorns, steep hills, and swampy conditions alike. Why do I wear a vest? Because I find it more comfortable.

I kinda tend to stay away from the milsim crowd because it is plagued by people with cheesy bolt on Tippmanns that believe in snipers and use poor tactics.

But people who have nicely done milsim markers (or hell, your typical speedball marker or even pump gun), and play the milsim game while acknologing the fact they're shooting .68 caliber gelatin filled spheres and not 7.62 lead rounds make the game great... (run-on sentence from hell)

I dont get why one segment of the sport feels it is ok to bash another. I personally prefer Woodsball/scenario/milsim to speedball, but dont take every opportunity to put down those that disagree. I agree with Judge about different settings, scenarios etc making it more interesting. While I will agree that not all Milsim add ons are necessarily functional, they do contribute to the realizm of the marker (gun) and thus add value, if only to make the owner feel more part of the game. Granted modifications to markers used in speedball seem to lean more towards pure function,  I don't see neon green paint, chrome and/or fade graphics adding to BPS or accuracy any more than adding a fake mag. However, adding barrel shrouds with mounting rails, scopes and some other accessories do in fact add function as well as to the "feel" of the marker. I have also noticed that a lot of Milsim guns featured in the marker galleries do have performance mods as well. However, since there seems to be more of a "one shot, one kill" mentality, these mods are as necessary as in speedball.

As for the contributing to a bad view of paintballing.. get real. The only people that get a negative impression of paintballing because of milsim are most likely anti war, anti gun and anti military to begin with and would have been offended by any sport where one person "shoots" at another regardless of whether they are wearing BDU's or a bright neon blue PB jersey. Probably the same people that came up with the idea that kids playing with toy guns is morally wrong as is keeping score in youth sports.

Finally adressing the 45 year old guys taking milsim way too seriously, keep in mind that those same guys are helping to keep the paintball industry going. If not in putting hundreds or thousands of dollars into their cheesy bolt on Tippmanns, than buying Shockers, Ions, and Dye jerseys for their unappreciative kids who spend way too much of their daddys money spraying paint all over the field rather than going out and getting a J.O.B.

oldpbnoob wrote: I dont get why one segment of the sport feels it is ok to bash another. I personally prefer Woodsball/scenario/milsim to speedball, but dont take every opportunity to put down those that disagree. I agree with Judge about different settings, scenarios etc making it more interesting. While I will agree that not all Milsim add ons are necessarily functional, they do contribute to the realizm of the marker (gun) and thus add value, if only to make the owner feel more part of the game. Granted modifications to markers used in speedball seem to lean more towards pure function,  I don't see neon green paint, chrome and/or fade graphics adding to BPS or accuracy any more than adding a fake mag. However, adding barrel shrouds with mounting rails, scopes and some other accessories do in fact add function as well as to the "feel" of the marker. I have also noticed that a lot of Milsim guns featured in the marker galleries do have performance mods as well. However, since there seems to be more of a "one shot, one kill" mentality, these mods are as necessary as in speedball. As for the contributing to a bad view of paintballing.. get real. The only people that get a negative impression of paintballing because of milsim are most likely anti war, anti gun and anti military to begin with and would have been offended by any sport where one person "shoots" at another regardless of whether they are wearing BDU's or a bright neon blue PB jersey. Probably the same people that came up with the idea that kids playing with toy guns is morally wrong as is keeping score in youth sports. Finally adressing the 45 year old guys taking milsim way too seriously, keep in mind that those same guys are helping to keep the paintball industry going. If not in putting hundreds or thousands of dollars into their cheesy bolt on Tippmanns, than buying Shockers, Ions, and Dye jerseys for their unappreciative kids who spend way too much of their daddys money spraying paint all over the field rather than going out and getting a J.O.B.

Yeah, neither side should bash each other as long as people are enjoying what they are doing.

However all of the scopes, rail, and sights so not increase the performance or functionality of the marker. However if someone likes them, or thinks they look cool that is fine, I and most people do/ should not care.

In contrast to "speedball" markers though: the cosmetic upgrades on a speedball marker do not act as detrimentally as on a milsim oriented marker. As in gun colors, grips, etc do no add to the bulk of the marker. Of course if you like how your marker looks, or someone is happy with their markers appearance there is no reason why someone should have a superiority complex and unjustifiably bash how someones marker appears.

As for 45 year old milsim players... noone is bashing people that play milsim as a whole, or even that age range. It is being used as a stereotype for the type of player who spends tons of money on cosmetic upgrades and pretends they are in a war (which as you said it fine if they are happy, and tey invariably create a market for paintball companies). The problems with players such as these, and from my understanding happens to be the major gripe is that a nice segment of this group plays rec/ walk-on play and treats the game as if they are in the military,... poor sportsmanship and barking orders to other recreational players as if they are some sort squad leader.

When a person's role playing stats to negatively affect other players' experiences is when problems start amongst the milsim crowd (of course other paintball subcultures have their own stereotypical problems).

Correct me if I am wrong, but arent rails for mounting things like scopes, lasers, flashlights etc. making them more useful/functional for Milsim? Wouldnt bright colors/chrome etc make markers and players more noticeable, and easier to spot, thus detrimental? Dont take this wrong, but some dude running across the field in a bright yellow jersey with a lime green mask with the sun glinting off his chrome shocker is going to be a lot easier to see than someone with camo in the forest carrying a matte black A-5.

As for issues with Milsim players playing rec ball. I agree that no one should necessarily be "barking orders". However, if there is a player in the group of open play that obviously has more experience, I would hope they would take a leading role and guide the newer, less experienced players. I would expect the same whether in the woods or on a speedball field. Organization is required in both forms of the sport to be effective and successful. Success and winning are the goal of both. Despite the prevalent psychology of the day... everyone is not a winner.

As far as poor sportsmanship, I have seen it in speedball just as much as in woodsball/milsim. In fact, I have been mocked or looked down upon in the past for using rental equipment and being a "noob" a heck of a lot more times by speedballers than by any other players. Guess now I'll be mocked for having a "milsim" gun and wearing camo instead of a cocker and a Dye jersey.

Funniest part about it is, I don't think I have ever seen a Woodsball/Milsim/Scenario player ever put down a Speedball player or insult their equipment on this forum. Can't say the other way around.

oldpbnoob wrote:   Correct me if I am wrong, but arent rails for mounting things like scopes, lasers, flashlights etc. making them more useful/functional for Milsim? Wouldnt bright colors/chrome etc make markers and players more noticeable, and easier to spot, thus detrimental? Dont take this wrong, but some dude running across the field in a bright yellow jersey with a lime green mask with the sun glinting off his chrome shocker is going to be a lot easier to see than someone with camo in the forest carrying a matte black A-5. As for issues with Milsim players playing rec ball. I agree that no one should necessarily be "barking orders". However, if there is a player in the group of open play that obviously has more experience, I would hope they would take a leading role and guide the newer, less experienced players. I would expect the same whether in the woods or on a speedball field. Organization is required in both forms of the sport to be effective and successful. Success and winning are the goal of both. Despite the prevalent psychology of the day... everyone is not a winner. As far as poor sportsmanship, I have seen it in speedball just as much as in woodsball/milsim. In fact, I have been mocked or looked down upon in the past for using rental equipment and being a "noob" a heck of a lot more times by speedballers than by any other players. Guess now I'll be mocked for having a "milsim" gun and wearing camo instead of a cocker and a Dye jersey. Funniest part about it is, I don't think I have ever seen a Woodsball/Milsim/Scenario player ever put down a Speedball player or insult their equipment on this forum. Can't say the other way around.

Ugh..

The point was that most of the things that you attach to rails are useless/ needless.

As for bright colors... not all "speedball" style equipment is brightly colored... but almost all milsim stuff is bulky. Additionally when you are engaging other players within the effective range of a paintball marker,... you can almost definitely see them. Even any reasonable amount of movement would be detected by any player being semi-vigilant since the distance is so close.

Now in a group of players would the player with bright gear stick out? ... yes.

Would brighter gear perhaps be more likely to draw the attention  of a player who is not paying attention? Perhaps.

However the effects of a brightly colored gun are marginal at best. What would ahve the greatest effect is a brightly color jersey, and still I garuntee you most people are not perceptive enough to notice someone sneaking along wearing a red jersey,... or if they do they are already watching X area and would have seen someone in BDU's as well.

As stated in my post not all people fall into the category... that it is simply a stereotype. Yet you feel the need to argue this? I garuntee you that there are some players that want to play army and try to bark orders. I also garuntee you some players have experience and are genuinely good leaders. the problem arises from people who are the first example... thinking that since they (& their friends) are so hardcore they automatically fall into category number 2. Also as I said there are other sterotypes for other types of players,... which are unrelated to this thread... so there is need to to be brought up.

Obviously winning is winning. However as a paying customer most people would rather lose than put up with a complete jerk all day. Actually even listening to the complete jerk you would probably lose. My comment wasn't about leaders... it was about people trying to be tyrants and NOT having a good dynamic... you sure are obtuse.

Only idiots mock others for their gear. I would lvoe to mock you for being an idiot and straying off point. People can use and should use w/e they want. However when people (mainly new players) come onto a forum asking for advise it is best to give them advise based upon practical considerations and not aesthetics.

People put down "speedball players" all the time on here. Alot of people have a "one shot, one kill" mentality and if anyone ones an electropnuematic marker they lack skill. I guess you just haven't read alot of threads on here then.

Why do you feel it is necassary to point out thingslike "speedball palyers mock other players more than woodsball players" when you say people shouldnt characterize, or critizise other players. Isn't using generalities like that yourself arrogant and hypocritical?

Oh and what do I typically play in... BDU's w/ a black to gray fade freestyle (although I do have a bright blue angel lcd I use from time to time). In my opinion using "speedball" markers with muted colors is the ebst option. It has the best performance, land light weight, without bright flashy colors that might make you a specifc target in a "fire fight, "gun battle" etc.

I honestly, don't beleive I have ever actually been referred to as obtuse or an idiot. Guess there is a first for both. I may have gotten off point a bit, but honestly, other than GForces post question and the first sentence of the first reply, arent most of the others as well? So I guess I'm not alone in my idiocracy. Yay, I love to be a conformist!

No one should have to deal with jerks all day regardless of which style of PB they prefer, especially at the prices we all have to pay. New players also shouldn't be subject to ridicule by more experienced players as it can turn off a potentional long time player that will continue to help support the industry. Neither should everyone feel a need to make the comment that Milsim or Speedball sucks everytime a simple question is asked.

Oh, and what do I wear? Green cargo pants from Old Navy, 10 year old Timberland hiking boots, and a $15.00 realtree camo shirt that my mother in law bought me on sale. At 6"1 and 245 pounds, there isnt enough como to hide me.

Yea,... except you had to edit my statement to truely make your point.

I said making fun of other people due to their possessions is stupid. To do so makes you can idiot, and that it is okay to make fun of people who are being stupid.

The poster I was commenting on talked about how people shouldn't be judged... and then at the end of every point added a jab at people that do not play milsim (which made him to a degree hypocritical). That whole dichotomy of is significantly more satirical than anything I have posted.

None of my posts were meant as jabs, except for this one:  

oldpbnoob wrote: As for the contributing to a bad view of paintballing.. get real. The only people that get a negative impression of paintballing because of milsim are most likely anti war, anti gun and anti military to begin with and would have been offended by any sport where one person "shoots" at another regardless of whether they are wearing BDU's or a bright neon blue PB jersey. Probably the same people that came up with the idea that kids playing with toy guns is morally wrong as is keeping score in youth sports.

I hate touchy feely, everyone should be a winner crap.

I stand by my statements as all of them are based on my direct experiences. Perhaps, my mind will be changed the more I play. If they were taken as jabs, they were misinterpreted. At no time did I say Speedball sucks, or its stupid to chrome plate, anodize, paint, or make love to your gear. Truth be known, I think ALL TYPES of marker gear is cool. I am a "toy guy" and respect/admire anything shiny and mechanical. (much to my wifes disdain). I did however, state that I have been mocked by what I would classify as speedball players for both not making the correct moves and/or not having my own equipment. I did not say that their rudeness was representative of all Speedball players. Again, if you took it that way.. your bad.

I also will say that I find ANYONE that takes things too seriously amusing. Except for the elite few that are able to make a living at it, it is a game. Nothing more, nothing less. Oops, I have probably started another debate.. Crap, now I took a jab at some one.... Doh.!

Unfortunately at this point, we are all off point. Honestly, the question starting this post has been asked and answered and the rest of this is all irrelevant.

One last thing:

Commander_Cool wrote: The poster I was commenting on talked about how people shouldn't be judged... and then at the end of every point added a jab at people that do not play milsim (which made him to a degree hypocritical).

Exactly where did I ever jab at people that don't play Milsim?

a5Tpp789 wrote: but you still didnt prove me wrong

I dont think he was trying to.

Reb Cpl wrote: a5Tpp789 wrote: milsim is a waste of money so are costly paint jobs, flashy jerseys, multiple cases of paint, and so on and so forth. In fact, what we do is a hobby here fella. Hobbies are often a 'waste of money' we know it, but do it anyway. Its only the ignorant that take the jab at another's hobby without looking at his own and realizing that what he does, while it may be different than someone else's on the surface- ultimately amounts to the same thing. Again, I am not a milsim player, but how the hell is spending money on something you enjoy a 'waste?'

 thank you         

to each his own

But so what if I like to wear general's stars on the field?  Isn't that my bidness?  As long as I don't start barking orders at you, why should you care?  And if I DO bark orders, what does it matter that I am wearing rank insignia?  Getting yelled at by strangers is annoying, whether they are playing war or not.

I can see giggling at the hardcore milsimmers they way you giggle at Trekkies, but the milsimminess itself is basically harmless - much like Trekkies.

Evil Elvis wrote: Same thing with getting a custom color for your car or new seats ect ect...

I keep begging my wife for 22's, bowling ball paint, and Marvin the Martin stiched seat covers for our Minivan, but so far....

BTW Elvis, I looked at your profile and your job description. Are you active military? If so, thank you for what you do. Would explain your general respectful attitude towards others that a lot of our younger member lack and need.

lol

ACOB hahahah

I have read through this particular topic with interest. I agree with thejudge, its all down to personal preference. I don't understand where all the animosity comes from between the styles of play, as im led to believe that paintball started in the woods to allow the weekend warriors to dress up as commandos and shoot their mates, correct me if im wrong!

I personally prefer milsim, maybe it's because im ex military, and enjoy the tactical, realism of conflict and dressing up like a commando side of things. Here in the UK, we have a growing interest in this side of paintball, have a look at milsimcombat.com, these people have access to ex SAS, who instruct them in hostage rescue, fieldcraft and have markers which do LOOK like the real thing.

So can we all agree to disagree, and stop berating each other over which style is best

nicked999 wrote: So can we all agree to disagree, and stop berating each other over which style is best

You have alot to learn about the internet...

oldpbnoob wrote: So when the French play milsim, do they all drop their markers and throw their hands up at the first sign of the enemy?

i lol'ed, i would say yes.

nicked999 wrote: So can we all agree to disagree, and stop berating each other over which style is best

Thanks nicked... that is my feel on it and yes paintball did originate in the woods and has moved to different areas since then.  Pesonally I have played with people that use speedball, pumps, milsim, etc.  I like them all and think everyone has their own say in what they buy.

Quite! very well put. It can't be all that bad being into the milsim side of things as the paintball market caters very well for us, with shrouds etc. I also think that snake6 needs to have a look at urban warfare center website to see that the military do use paintball for training sometimes, these people have also done a presentation to our own armed forces here in the UK, no offence snake, but i played against your lot when i was based at RAF St Mawgan, and we whupped ass big styleee, i think your lost every game, and we were lowly military policemen.

yup!!

anything for a bit of friendly debate

RAF police originally now serving in the Met in London

heres an excellent video of UK milsim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI58koiyUdc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI58koiyUdc

if this doesn't work then type Blackhawk down@lightfighter

nicked999 wrote: RAF police originally now serving in the Met in London

Do you know sergeant Angel?