To whom it may concern (you know who you are):

First article isn't about paintball, but about using methods other than firearms for training purposes, the second is directly related to my comment about paintball being used for military training purposes, I've highlighted the relevant stuff, incase you're feeling lazy:

"MILES XXI is a force-on-force training system used by both dismounted infantry and mobile weapon crews to increase combat readiness and fighting effectiveness.

Weapon information

The system uses laser light in the form of pulses to transmit weapon information to a target. These pulses are transmitted each time a weapon is fired. Information contained in the pulses includes the player identification and the type of weapon used. The target entity processes the information to produce a casualty assessment.

The casualty assessment for a dismounted soldier can produce a state of killed or wounded. The casualty assessment for a mobile weapon system can produce several outcomes including catastrophic kill, mobility kill and communication kill. Both dismounted soldiers and mobile- weapon-system platforms are equipped with a laser transmitter and laser receiver."

This was a $134m contract with the US ARMY and has been ongoing since 2001.

furthermore:

MILITARY COMBAT SIMULATIONS

"Simply put, they are training exercises for military personnel that have traditionally used MILES gear. 
In a Combat Simulation, military personnel are given objectives to complete and be evaluated upon.  Some units spend weeks preparing military personnel training them in the techniques and protocol that they must abide by on the field.  At some point, these military personnel are assessed on their progress.  While there are many benefits to Miles, it does lack the benefit of impact from incoming rounds and limited ammo.  The alternative to using “laser tag” equipment is to use paintball equipment.  

Recent technological advances in paintball equipment allow for a safe, but realistic engagement against OPFORs that gives the participants a richer and more beneficial training experience."

Read and weep ladies.

Well unlike "Most Forumers" here I came to the Tippmann forum to talk about paintball and I still play. I'm pretty sure that's still what business Tippmann is in???

BaldBird wrote: Well unlike "Most Forumers" here I came to the Tippmann forum to talk about paintball and I still play. I'm pretty sure that's still what business Tippmann is in???

Yes, and the rest of the forum is there for that.  T&O, as you know, has evolved unofficially into an off-topic, and the New Players forum is often used to carry out paintball-related thoughts and opinions.  Okay, so granted its not what it's named, but it is what it is.

BaldBird wrote: Nice post, the "Regulars" will never change their views.

My first post was non-paintball. And I'm very aware of how things work around here. I've been monitoring for months. For the fist few it was kind of enjoyable, seeing some of the "comments" from one to another, I just figured I'd join in.

Yes my first post was about Snipers and it was killed twice because apparently the subject was so sensitive that it can't be discussed with tact by any "regulars" on this forum, at least that was the reason I was given. I was looking to see what "Gems" nay, comments I would receive, but to no avail I was censored.

i got both articles from .EDU and .GOV websites... so they're credible sources.

I'm not trying to change any of your minds, but rather to demonstrate before shooting your mouth, or doubting another take a minute, sit back, and think about it, i'm just trying to shed some light on a topic which CLEARLY needed shining... 

we were all under different impressions about paintball and military training.... but atleast now we can safetly agree (hopefuly) that paintball, is used - marginally, in some shape or form, for training.

p.s. sorry about the fonting, bolding, italizing thing... had to make sure the right stuff stuck out...

BaldBird wrote: There is a bit of a "click" on here, I just don't agree with everything that's said on this forum. And there are a few members that never have anything good to say but have 10,000posts. Unreal, how does someone aquire 10,000 posts on a forum, not playing much paintball I guess? But that's cool, to each their own.

I know exactly how you feel... perhaps in this forum, acquiring 5 digit numbered posts gives your seniority, and automaticaly what you say must be true over any one with fewer posts...  I guess little fish like us are doomed....

oh and snake, it wasn't JUST for you, I wouldnt dedicate that time and effort for just one... read the title. "to whom it may concern". 

I do however stand corrected on the house to house firing and simunitions comment. I was under the wrong impression.. honest mistake.

Yes it may seem we are doomed, what a loss...

The "S" word is only sensitive to those that have closed minds, I have plenty of "Facts" not arguments I have not seen in any of the previous posts. But they were censored because a few gold and platinum members are "spray and pray" paintballers who just aren't reachable.

Tolgak wrote: Though I don't have experience in the subject, I'd imagine that the noise, the real shooting, and the vibration give a more authentic feel then paintball ever would.

Agreed, perhaps both offer something the other can't...  the physical shock of being shot with a paintball, the impact, the initial pain (however limited) and having to deal with it immediately, might come accross as more intimidating than vivid vibrations and high pitch noises. I'll have to try this MILES laser tag...

what WAS my point snake? i think with recent heat in this and other threads, IT has become a tad askew...  my initial post was, paintball was/is used as a form of training:

"kungura wrote:

that was the original statement which you though i meant as a principal method of training, then i clarified with

"I never said as a primary tool" (this is where i mentioned simunitions, my bad)

THEN i brought it here, backed it up with TWO seperate articles, proving that NOT only have they used paintball for training purposes, but ALSO used MILES, which is my point EXACTLY... that firearms are not the sole method of training for safe, realistic, assesable tactical training.  (maybe a bit of a stretch, but we got here, that's what is important)

what more can i say??  check and mate - for all?

oh and 'heliumman' who are you to tell me to shutup?  with such an attitude, let alone your nickname, i could care less about your views towards me.  We're having a debate, and you come along with your childish whining and bickering thinking i will obide?? I think a simple no can do attitude should put you back in your seat.

ShortyBP wrote: which came first, the chicken or the egg)... Edited to add: kungura wrote: my initial post was, paintball was/is used as a form of training And you are correct, sir.

The EGG i belive.  thank you for your post, and acknowledgment.   Simunitions is something, i have to admit, i'm not fully aware of, so i come to you (plural), that are all knowing,  enlighten me on the topic (alternatively you can give me the primadonna response : "USE THE SEARCH"),

lol @ keyboard commandos. nice one.

I had no idea the S word was blasphemy around here.  what's the big idea? if one prefers to shoot from further away than the front line players, doesn't that make one a sniper? 

now whether you're accurate with each shot or not, matters not since if he doesn't kill, he'll be killed. atleast he killed, or got killed as a sniper.

Now Elvis did I once mention which games I play in? Does someone only exist in "Paintball" if he plays in the big games that you play in? Now I believe the argument is do "They" exist in paintball, not do they make a difference. They certainly do exist whether they're at big games or not.

And the answer is yes I do make big games about three times a year. Most big games if not all are "Spray and Pray" contests, which caters to most field selling event paint at $65 a case.

Just a side note to Snake and Elvis, I never once said I was a "S" nor do I claim to be, I'm just looking for a healthy debate from the "best" the Tippmann forum has to offer.

Like I said I make it to about 3 big games a year, and I am not a "Sniper", I play the same way I always have, I don't shoot an E-grip and I too don't go thru anywhere near a case. Now you feel obviously that Ive personally attacked your play, I never once said you are "Spray and Pray" so you shouldn't get so worked up about it.

Like I said, I never claimed to be a "Sniper" nor did I attempt to elaborate on my military background. Fact of the matter is I wanted to see how single minded most on this forum are. Just having a friendly debate.

Carl, a "Sniper" in the paintball world does not utilize distance, as there is no given advantage from anything, he does however choose to use Concealment, which in most dictionaries is the essence of a "Sniper".

absolutely baldbird. 

snip·er  [n]

1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

interesting

Snake6 wrote: According to the definition of a sniper by the dictionary, everyone is a sniper. Every player who fires from a concealed position is a sniper then...

yea but how many people fire from a concealed position? usually when you shoot someone they can see you, sometimes too late

 but I think shooting and not being noticed or seen (so that rules me and my loud ass A-5 out!) yet manage to score a couple kills = sniper

I just simply made an observation that everyone knows someone. Never mentioned or named you.

As for concealment, just wearing camo doesn't make you concealed. Just as wearing a colorful jersy doesn't make me a speedball player. And flanking and ambushing could make you a Sniper, but more than likely you are part of a small assault team (whatever term you choose to use). You may however utilize a Sniper to get the party started so to say, but I'm guessing not, since of course they don't exist.

kungura wrote: yea but how many people fire from a concealed position? usually when you shoot someone they can see you, sometimes too late

All the smart players?  I prefer to shoot people in the back.  I hate getting shot at.  What idiot plays woodsball without shooting "from a concealed position?"

I gotta run to the liquor store before it closes at 10. I am however going to return to continue this debate. Gimme 15, thanks for listening by the way.

yea how did this morph from milsim and military training to snipers????

i swear it haunt all of us.

p.s if you hit someone, while you're concealed, and stay concealed after the kill, purposefuly using the foilage as you primary means of defence (as opposed to using bunkers, or ambushing, flanking, etc).. then that should qualify you as a sniper.. right?

Snake6 wrote: No, that does not =sniper. You need to read up on what a sniper is/does before before making wild assumptions.

oh boy here we go again... do i have to sit you back down again? why can't we agree to disagree and leave it at that?

kungura wrote:  if you hit someone, while you're concealed, and stay concealed after the kill, purposefuly using the foilage as you primary means of defence (as opposed to using bunkers, or ambushing, flanking, etc).. then that should qualify you as a sniper.. right?

No...  That just means you are still concealed.  Do you normally stand up and shout after each elimination?  (Assuming, of course, that your position was not discovered by your fire)

What you are describing is just "paintball".

Rambino wrote: All the smart players?  I prefer to shoot people in the back.  I hate getting shot at.  What idiot plays woodsball without shooting "from a concealed position?"

where do you play?  you can confidently tell me, that you can't be seen/heard when shooting people, let alone only shooting people in the back?

and what does smart have to do with anything?? dont try to be condescending with me - many 'smart' players use other methods than sit, hide, wait for enemy to turn back, and fire...

you and i should engage in pb game, infact I think if all of us had a chance to play together, with random teams, and after a full day of releasing paint, testosterone, and acheiving some headshots, there wouldn't be so much banter flying around

well perhaps you and i were arguing the same case all along...  you see - english isn't my first language, but i try nenetheless. 

 i'm not and dont consider myself, a sniper, because i prefer to move, to observe and strike at the right moment. usually a group of 2 or 3 men strong with good team communication can take out 10 un attentive players easy - and i'm all about that! it works with almost any scenario, urban warfare, woodsball, plane ambush, ww2, even texas hold'em (not my fav. btw)

so we're all hung up on the definition, and how it directly applies (And whether that exact definition rings true specificaly in paintball), and lastly, if anyone has the right to call themselves one right?

snake, don't quit your day job to become a brain surgeon, i think your potential is fulfilled as a marine.

No i was debating, if you can hit people from a distance (which MOST don't typically use to their advantage) without being seen, and continue to do so all day and continue to score, then that makes you more of a sniper than most.

and i didn't contradict myself, i just stated that we can't REALLY be snipers in the sense that we know (snipers=1000 yard shots) because it's impossible, so we scale it down, but IN RELATION to paintball, and the average shot/kill distance, if u do what i mentioned above, why wouldn't u be considered a 'sniper'?  I don't really care, it has nothing to do with me, I shoot snipers in the scope!

Yes a "paintball sniper"  You do not need to have the occupation to match to be considered a sniper in paintball. Now I'm not calling anyone a sniper or using titles to describe one player, I'm saying that sniping does exist and snipers therfore are present. However Snake you are definitely a brain surgeon, and at the next big scenario game we can get you a medic role card so that you may demonstrate that to all who have received headshots by some sniper concealed and covered with whatever semantics you must use.

aw i dont have a cool nickname....

and simple solution to your problem - flatline, but a better one than the air guzzling, inaccurate one that's currently out.  it should be called sniperline.