Canadian Border Troubles !
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Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
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URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=174574
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Topic: Canadian Border Troubles !
Posted By: chunick
Subject: Canadian Border Troubles !
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 12:26pm
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I live in Canada and recently ordered a bunch of paintball items form the US. I had the items shipped to Rydens Border Store in Minnesota. Yesterday a friend and myself went went across the border into the US and picked up the packages (he also had paintball gear sent to the border store). When we came back into Canada and declared our items, the border agent(s) asked to see specifically two items listed on my receipt - the Alpha Black tactical paintball gun, and the flatline barrel for the X7.
They took about 45 mins to an hour investiagting these items and came back with the conclusion that the Alpha Black is a restricted firearm. The border agent cited the fact that the manual included did not give out the maximum velocity the weapon can fire and also that the paintball gun was a replica of a real gun.
The explanation for not allowing the barrell was not clear, as no reason was really given except that it was restrcited.
We told the border agents that the items are sold directly in Canada and in Canadian Paintball stores. We were told by the agents that they are NOT sold in Canada and if they were they came here illegally.
At one point they border agents called the paintball gun an airsoft rifle and made the case that it can fire metal balls and even told us that they could call the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) and have us arrested for being in possesion of the firearm.
My friend and myself are not criminals and nor are we teenagers (we are in our 30's). We were both taken back by the ignorant attitudes of the agents and the complete disregard for the facts.
We were allowed to return the items to the American Border Store (Rydens), where the items are right now (waiting). I have a couple of options to proceed to try to get my items back, #1) return the items to where I bought them. #2) make a case for bringing the items through (to Canada permanently) again.
Any thoughts or ideas ?
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Replies:
Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 12:49pm
I would just return the items to the original store you purchased them from and buy the products in Canada.
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Posted By: notXXscared
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 12:54pm
run through the boarder, shoot them in the face with the paintball gunn.
They will then know its just a paintball gun and let you continue to the
other side with your new gun.
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Previously DYE PLAYA
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Posted By: phil_stl
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 12:56pm
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Umm considering the time, gas money and problems you'll put yourself through getting them accross the border, just buy them in Canada.
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 12:59pm
Go to the store, return, and then buy in Canada.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 1:08pm
smuggle them, duh
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Posted By: chunick
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 1:11pm
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I'll probably end up shipping the items back to where i bought them. It's too bad because I got the flatline barrel for an unbeatable price. Canadian prices are very overpriced for paintball gear, I woud rather avoid buying from Canada if I can.
Thanks for advice.
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Posted By: ¤ Råp¡Ð F¡rè ¤
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 1:17pm
evillepaintball wrote:
smuggle them, duh
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Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 1:22pm
The Canadian Version of the Alpha Black is called the Bravo One I belive wich is a repackage of the Alpha Black. With the Canadians replica laws being so open for LE to apply their own interpretations I'd would do as stated and buy them from Canadian Distributers.
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Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 1:38pm
Evil Elvis wrote:
The Canadian Version of the Alpha Black is called the Bravo One I belive wich is a repackage of the Alpha Black. With the Canadians replica laws being so open for LE to apply their own interpretations I'd would do as stated and buy them from Canadian Distributers. |
Didn't all the mods get Alpha Blacks? If so doesn't that mean that certain individuals have illegal weapons?
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Posted By: Da Hui
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 2:39pm
Shoot metal balls at the border patrol.
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Posted By: .357 Magnum
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 2:41pm
Yea, just return them and buy in Canada.
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 4:26pm
The laws suck, I know.
If you fought it, you would probably win though but it may not be worth it.
The alpha black is not magazine fed and I believe that counts for something.
Expect to pay duty out of the wazoo if you piss them off and win.
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Posted By: notom66866
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 4:51pm
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The X-7 is not classified as a replica because it fires a projectile, it does however look somewhat like a firearm so they may require red paint on the barrel. I've had many problems with airsoft guns crossing the border. The problem lies in the fact that replicas/airsoft/paintball fall into a grey area, and also borderguards are not properly trained in these subjects. I have myself and many of my old airsoft buddies called the border service on numerous occations to get a firm answer to what will be seized and what will not. We have never been given the same answer twice. We have even talked to higher ranking officials as well. Basically the bottom line is if a border guard believes wrongly or not something is a firearm or replica thay are told to ban it. I was told by an official " National security trumps your stupid hobby." My suggestion to you if you choose to bring paintball accessories across the border, is to check some Canadian airsoft team sites. My understanding is that some have hired lawers and there is some knid of form that sites exact sections of the legal code. Or maybe the guards knew the law and just wanted your marker, there was an issue in an airsoft magazine about an American border guard with more than 500 airsoft guns that he seized from Canadians. He buys them from the dept for a few dollars each.
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 4:59pm
Red paint on the barrrel is an American thing only. It doesn't matter in Canada.
There is little to no gray area with airsoft guns, importing them IS illegal.
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Posted By: .636
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:23pm
Boarder agents are wrong. In Canada, any air powered 'firearm'(meaning fires a projectile over 500 fps) are all non restricted and only need a regular PAL to own. Even air pistols that are registered are non restricted.
If it was a 'replica' it would be classified under prohibited.
Just suck it up and buy it in Canada. Its retarded that you did not want to pay 130 bucks in Canada for that marker and went to the USA to get it for only a little bit less.
"help help I don't want to spend 130 dollars on a gun so I went to the USA to get it for a few bucks less, although I did spend 60 bucks in gas and 40 dollars in dutys. I sure did get it cheaper"
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Posted By: notom66866
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:34pm
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Sorry carl but they are not illegal to import, on that point you are wrong.
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Posted By: White o Light
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:39pm
Da Hui wrote:
Shoot metal balls at the border patrol.
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Lol yeah metal balls ARE pretty indie.
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Posted By: Da Hui
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:51pm
White o Light wrote:
Da Hui wrote:
Shoot metal balls at the border patrol.
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Lol yeah metal balls ARE pretty indie.
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Glad you agree.
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Posted By: .636
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:56pm
notom66866 wrote:
Sorry carl but they are not illegal to import, on that point you are wrong. |
It is illegal to import the non translucent airsoft rifles. Anything thats opaque is considered prohibited and is a pain in the ass toget into Canada. You need permits and licenses and stuff to import the cool airsoft guns.
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Posted By: notom66866
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 7:49pm
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Permits yes, but not illegal, the problem is, its too small a problem for the government to devote manhours into clarifying a law that affect very few people. Permits in this case are pretty much just saying; we trust that this person isn't an idiot who will import unlawful weapons.
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Posted By: oreomann33
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 7:54pm
Hide them in your anus.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 8:31pm
Idiots. If I can buy a SIM-5, they can import Alpha Black.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 10:16pm
notom66866 wrote:
Sorry carl but they are not illegal to import, on that point you are wrong. |
Nope, unless you have the proper licensing which I doubt any single person has, they are illegal to import.
Importing Airsoft and You
The main FAQ on Canadian law doesn't really address this issue, other than to state some policy. Hopefully this will answer a lot of the questions people keep asking but just end up getting told, "Read the FAQ".
This is not to say people should skip reading the FAQ. This will be written with the assumption you've done that already and have a working knowledge of the laws and regulations governing airsoft in Canada.
The main emphasis of this FAQ is on mailed goods. There is a section at the end for personally bringing items into the country.
Can I import airsoft guns into Canada?
The short answer is no. The Canada Border Services Agency (formerly Canada Customs and Revenue Agency) has a directive that says airsoft guns are replicas and are thus prohibited from importation.
But if airsoft guns are legal to purchase and use in Canada, why does CBSA still refuse individual importation?
CBSA plays by their own set of rules and interpretations. They always have. Understand that their job is to control the entry of goods and people into the country in order to protect the citizenry. If there's a doubt as to the legality of an item, their duty is to detain it until proven otherwise or ordered to release it by a justice. Due to the relatively poorly-established legal status of airsoft guns (replica vs. air gun) the CBSA errs on the side of caution and will not permit their importation.
How do dealers then import airsoft?
Dealers have purchased a Business Firearms License that has a provision for Prohibited Devices, i.e. replica firearms. A rumor as of late indicates that some now state Airsoft specifically, although this remains to be confirmed.
A prohibited BFL can cost upwards of $1,200 depending on the type of options you ask for. Certain options are much cheaper. To get an idea for the costs involved ask the Canada Firearms Centre for a copy of the BFL application form, which has the costs and such on it.
Note that to successfully get a BFL with the requisite options for importing airsoft requires that you have an established business with the proper security controls and procedures. Joe Teenager will NOT get one so he can sell AEGs out of his mom's basement on the side.
I’m gonna try importing a gun anyhow. What should I expect?
For starters, expect to have it seized by the CBSA without compensation. You will receive a Notice of Detention which states what’s been seized and why, and your options for appeal.
If you lose your appeal (which is the most likely scenario) or do not respond to the notice, your goods will be destroyed by the Crown. All that money you spent trying to get a better deal from overseas or the States is now gone. You will also likely be entered into the CBSA’s registry and be scrutinized more closely in the future.
Sometimes you have the option of having the goods returned to the sender rather than being destroyed, although most carriers will refuse to touch it if CBSA has branded it a “prohibited item”. You may be able to persuade a carrier with a BFL for prohibited goods to do it, although it may be difficult and is not always guaranteed. They will also typically need a permit to export prohibited items which very few - if any - carriers have. Assuming you can accomplish this however, you’ve now paid shipping for two directions and likely a nice restocking fee once your seller receives the item, presumably intact. So much for savings, huh?
Oh yeah, well my father’s brother’s mother’s nephew’s former roommate managed to get some guns across the border no problem.
Indeed they may have. Customs inspections are random and his obviously slipped through. If you can afford to play Russian roulette with your money that’s your decision, although bear in mind the more times you draw the ire of the CBSA, the more likely you’re to experience legal troubles as well.
Okay, so I can’t import guns. What about parts and accessories?
Yes. The good news is that most parts and accessories, including most magazines, can be successfully imported by individuals without requiring a BFL. Examples of things you CANNOT import:
AEG magazines with fake cartridges (i.e. P90, G36, SG 552 mags)
Frames, receivers, and metal bodies
Suppressors and silencers
Prohibited-length outer handgun barrels (i.e. USP Compact, Glock 26)
Hand and 40mm grenades that look real
Examples of things you CAN import:
Magazines for AEGs and GBBs without fake cartridges
Outer barrels for most guns
Inner barrels of any type
Handgun slides
Flash suppressors
Scopes, red dot sights, iron sights, lasers
Rail systems and scope mounts
Springs, bushings, gears, pistons, or other gearbox parts
Batteries, BBs, loading tools
Helmets, goggles, body armor, tactical vests, camouflage
Note that CBSA inspectors have discretion to detain goods of questionable legality, and although it shows up on the above list it MAY be held if you draw an inspector that is particularly ignorant or of foul demeanor. That said, I have yet to hear of any seizures of the above items.
Prohibited-length handgun barrels may or may not be stopped. Most outer barrels are not dimensioned internally to even appear capable of firing a real bullet, and faux rifling marks typically extend only a few millimeters down the bore. However CBSA inspectors are not firearms experts and if they think there's a potential of it being usable in a real gun, they'll seize it rather than risk their jobs. Best not to take a chance on it.
I heard that Airsoft guns that shoot between 407 and 500 fps will be allowed in. Is that true?
Actually, it is. The RCMP was paid to do forensic testing on airsoft guns to determine at what velocity they are capable of causing serious bodily injury. The findings indicated that 407 fps was the magic number at which point airsoft guns go from being replicas to air guns. CBSA will apparently respect this finding.
The caveat here is that while the gun may be legal to import, the onus is on the importer to prove it. If an inspector so desires, they will ship your gun off to Regina to be chronographed and YOU will be responsible for bearing all costs associated with testing and return shipping, effectively negating any savings you might have earned by shopping outside the country.
In the end, it’s still best to let someone with the right licenses import for you and save you the potential headache and expense.
Is there a difference between importing via mail, and personally bringing them into the country?
In terms of what you can and cannot bring, no. However things change dramatically when you are personally present at a port of entry and declaring your goods.
First thing, ALWAYS declare truthfully what you are bringing into the country. Even if you think it stands a chance of being seized. Under Section 12 of the Customs Act you are obligated to report all goods being imported at the port of entry to a customs officer. Section 13 of the Customs Act requires that you do this truthfully. Also explain why you're bringing it in to add legitimacy to the item, as the inspector is less likely to give you a hard time about it. Explain airsoft is a sport and you're not bringing this stuff back just because you thought it was cool. Aside from narcotics, the CBSA's policy is no enforcement action will be taken against anyone who properly and truthfully declares their goods.
If you truthfully declare your goods but the inspector decides it isn't permitted in the country, it will be denied entry and considered abandoned to the Crown for destruction (there are other options but for your sake, it's abandoned). If you falsely declare your goods and they are discovered, they will be seized under Section 110 of the Customs Act and an enforcement action will be taken.
An enforcement action can be as minor as being assessed duties and taxes for an extra pack of cigarettes you didn't declare, but something that would be considered a replica firearm is a far more serious contravention and you would likely be looking at prosecution possibly under Section 159 of the Customs Act, which deals with smuggling. Keep this in mind next time you try to sneak that $20 springer in your checked luggage.
Also bear in mind that a misdescription of goods may also lead to a seizure. For instance, if you are trying to pass off a KSC Glock 17 as firing at 450 fps and it is sent for determination, they're going to discover your declaration was false and you may be charged and your gun seized and subsequently destroyed by the Crown.
Parts, for the most part, stand zero chance of being detained, abandoned, or seized. Generic things like gears, barrels, springs, BBs, can have other uses besides airsoft and an inspector has no real reason to detain them. Things like magazines should be shown as incapable of holding real cartridges; having a few BBs to demonstrate would help. Barrels and such aren't controlled items (aside from prohibited handgun barrels as mentioned previously) and any good customs officer will know this. Stick to what's in the list above and you should be fine.
Can I import a Robert Goulet?
Yes, although it must be made of clear plastic and have an orange tip. If you get the color model it WILL be seized by customs. Part 933(s)(ii) of the Criminal Code of Canada makes importing, or attempting to import, a Robert Goulet without an orange tip and not in clear plastic, an indictable offense punishable by life in prison. |
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 10:19pm
brihard wrote:
Idiots. If I can buy a SIM-5, they can import Alpha Black.
| Rap4 markers are illegal to import you know?
The sim-5 is still legal though but at this rate, it won't be far off.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 10:21pm
carl_the_sniper wrote:
brihard wrote:
Idiots. If I can buy a SIM-5, they can import Alpha Black.
| Rap4 markers are illegal to import you know?
The sim-5 is still legal though but at this rate, it won't be far off. |
You're right out to lunch.
They're all legal to import; the border agent just doesn't have a clue. There's no list of paintball markers listing which can and which cannot be imported. It's a flawed gap in the discretion given to border officers.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 10:23pm
brihard wrote:
carl_the_sniper wrote:
brihard wrote:
Idiots. If I can buy a SIM-5, they can import Alpha Black.
| Rap4 markers are illegal to import you know?
The sim-5 is still legal though but at this rate, it won't be far off. | You're right out to lunch.They're all legal to import; the border agent just doesn't have a clue. There's no list of paintball markers listing which can and which cannot be imported. It's a flawed gap in the discretion given to border officers. |
The CBSA (Canadian Border Services Agency) on January 17th 2007 decided to prohibit RAM manufactured paintball rifles under the Customs Act, citing that they are replicas of the M4 Carbine Assault Rifle.
In Canada, replica firearms are prohibited.
A fellow by the name of Allan Zerr has been taking up the case for RAM in Canada with the CBSA, following through the appeals process up until the final appeal was dismissed by the Canadian Council of Tarriffs and Trade today on January 31st 2008.
Not all RAP4 products are affected, and not all RAM products are affected; just the 43 caliber RAM / RAP4 markers that are lookalikes of the M4 Carbine, magazine fed.
The case gets a bit more interesting, and has some real ramifications for other simulation paintball markers - so manufacturers and importers take note.
RAM/RAP4 got special chiding from the tribunal because their distributor's website advertises “. . . identical to the legendary M4 rifle used by SWAT Teams and the U.S. Military . . .”. Makes it kind of difficult to say its not a replica (and therefore prohibited) when you say something like that on your website.
Is there any more recourse for these 43 caliber markers?
Nope. Its the end of the line for RAP4/RAM 43 caliber rifles in Canada. Note that this doesnt necessarily affect the pistols; yet. I wouldn't doubt if eventually the 43 caliber pistols get called out too soon enough however. These could be the Walther 223 and other popular 43 caliber pistols.
This is the end of the appeals process.
With a win under their belt, CBSA will likely go after other RAM products including pistols and other replica parts.
How do I make sure that what I'm buying online isnt banned - if it is will I lose it? Will I get my money back?
Well first thing to remember that it's the customers problem if you pay for something to be shipped from the states and the CBSA snags it and destroys it because its prohibited. Its your responsibility to ensure that your importing something legal.
The best thing to do is to buy it from a retailer in Canada that has it in stock. Even if they dont have it in stock, if they cant prove they shipped it then they are obligated to return your money. For a Canadian company to ship it to you via the USA wouldnt make sense.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 10:34pm
My bad. Sorry dude.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 7:18am
brihard wrote:
My bad. Sorry dude.
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Someone needs to fail stamp himself.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 7:44am
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I have an Alpha black, and it went through customs to get here with no problems. Why the heck is it called the Bravo in Canada?
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Posted By: xDecimatexYoux
Date Posted: 21 June 2009 at 5:29pm
if you could remember just take every piece of the gun apart and put it in a box and put the flat line barrel somewhere un seeable and its not a crime there just stupid its like the other day the cops came and took our information and kicked us off private property the homeowner was so mad......its like they would rather have us rob a bank or something
------------- Pumpker'd; (V.) When a pump player runs up and shoots you at point blank range because you thought 20bps made you good.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 21 June 2009 at 5:49pm
xDecimatexYoux wrote:
if you could remember just take every piece of the gun apart and put it in a box and put the flat line barrel somewhere un seeable and its not a crime there just stupid its like the other day the cops came and took our information and kicked us off private property the homeowner was so mad......its like they would rather have us rob a bank or something
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Holy necro batman! Over a year.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: slackerr26
Date Posted: 21 June 2009 at 5:54pm
seriously?
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 21 June 2009 at 8:01pm
Put it in your trunk and buy some milk and when they ask you what you were doing in the U.S. just say "I was getting milk and gas" they should let you through because people do that all the time.
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 21 June 2009 at 11:32pm
ParielIsBack wrote:
xDecimatexYoux wrote:
if you could remember just take every piece of the gun apart and put it in a box and put the flat line barrel somewhere un seeable and its not a crime there just stupid its like the other day the cops came and took our information and kicked us off private property the homeowner was so mad......its like they would rather have us rob a bank or something
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Holy necro batman! Over a year.
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Well duh. Obviously the original poster is still trying to get his marker into Canada over a year later.

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