home defense question.
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Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
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URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=174605
Printed Date: 04 May 2024 at 7:22am
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Topic: home defense question.
Posted By: merc
Subject: home defense question.
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:13pm
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Im about to buy my 1st home and am a firm believer that the police take far to long to respond after calling 911.
im looking for a firearm or 2 for home defense. something i can shoot for fun on the side but be an effective defense firearm. i dont think i will be able to carry to work (gov job) so a carry gun is out. although VA has a non permit open carry policy  so if i want to carry i can.
anyways im thinking about a full sized, single stack .45 or double stack 9mm for downstairs and a 12 gage shotgun for upstairs. (bedrooms and office are upstairs) both firearms will be hidden but easily accessible to both me and my GF. i will also go for a CCP eventually but wont be able to carry the firearm on my person or in my vehicle to work... any brands to stay away from? ive heard rugars have mag problems and berettas can have the slides fail if you use high velocity ammo... stuff like that ------------- saving the world, one warship at a time. |
Replies:
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:16pm
Hm. I'm gonna have to check and see if Texas has an open carry/no permit needed law. You figure it would. I'd love to waltz into town with a single-action Colt .45 revolver strapped to my hip.  Edit: I would look into a Sig-Saur P228 (I think it's an 8, could be 6) in .357 Sig caliber. My uncle has one and swears by it. Bottle-necked bullets never jam, reliable safety and thumb decocker. Not to mention, it's got a decent ammo capacity. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell" 
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Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:17pm
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^ i thought it was a law you had to carry in TX? ------------- saving the world, one warship at a time. |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:18pm
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Hah. Yeah. I'll get right on it! Anyway, see my edit. Only problem with it is it's hard to find ammo. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: oreomann33
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:23pm
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I didn't no about the VA policy, all this time I've been walking around unarmed.
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:27pm
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dont get the 357 sig for home defense. the bullet has a pretty high velocity and is prone to overpenetrating, which sucks if there happens to be someone that you dont want to shoot nearby. springfield makes good 1911s, you can also look into S&W M&P in 40, 45, or 9. sigs are always nice, as are glocks, springfields, HK, and CZ. you're really best off to go into the store and hold many different ones. ------------- 
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Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:37pm
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Shotguns are all you will ever need for Home Defence and you wont have to worry about stray rounds and all that Dry Walling fun.
Besides in most states if you had any exit to your home and you kill the intruder you can be brought up on Manslaugther charges. So put down the E-peen and before you ask gun advise from a Paintball Board. Do yourself a favor and go check with your local PD. Look at crime stats and their average response time. If you still feed the need to arm yourself. Think logically unlike most Steven Segal Movies most burglars boogie when spotted, Home Invasions are diferent but those are mostly to Urban and Subburban areas near crime infested ghettos. Get a good ADT alarm with a LOUD Audiable Alarm. Make sure that you put up those dorky Stickers and Lawn signs. Theives will bypass the hassle of playing beat the cruiser. Make sure that you dont waste your time going nuts with lamo window sensors. A few well placed Motion Sensor will do you more good than Window Sensors. Make sure that you lock your door and windows and that all your doors have deadbolt locks. Make sure that your sliders have bars so that the can jimmy the lock and gain entrance. Keep shrubery to a minimum and make sure that your perimeter is lines with Motion Sensor Flood Lights. ------------- 
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Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:46pm
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Seriously, don't get something unless you're willing to face the consequences it may bring (shotgun close range = likely death = likely manslaughter). Grab a pistol and a good security system, and in a worst case scenario, shoot him in the knee. It'll make you a shoe in for the BA of the week award, anyone can blast an intruder with a shotgun.
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http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:51pm
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:53pm
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Eville: Very valid point. I hadn't considered over penetration.
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:01pm
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-the house has an alarm system but it has window and door sensors. im sure we can add some motion sensors
-we have a small dog that will bark like crazy but isent a physical threat. -flood lights if they arnt we will put them on the front, back, and side of the house. but we have a neighbor fairly close on the 4th side. and while all of those are great precautions i would still be more comfortable with a firearm as a last resort. something to just hunker in the corner with and point at the door. plus i would like to shoot every once in a while as a hobby. ------------- saving the world, one warship at a time. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:11pm
Not sure if he was joking or not, but just so it's clear- if you are using a firearm, it is deadly force. You don't even use a firearm unless you're willing to risk killing the person. A shot in the knee can still kill a person. If you're using a firearm to defend yourself, your family, or your home it's because that's the last option you have, and if it's your last option, you don't screw around with that hollywood 'aim for the knee' crap. Always, ALWAYS fire centre of visible mass. Whatever firearm you pick up, mount a decent flashlight on it. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Yomillio wrote:Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:17pm
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yeah mass if you kill intruder with a gun and he had knife you go to jail.
in mass you cant defend yourself. sooo get mace. lots of mace. new hampshire is nicer. as long as you say you attempted to escape but feared so much for your life taht you had to kill them, and the intruder is physically in your house. and wasnt shot in the back you are safe. but like EE said. its over kill. get a beanbag shotgun or something. or keep your paintball gun handy. that'll cause enough pain to make them stop if you keep shooting them in the face and what not. or watch home alone. that kid was a genius at house security. |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:24pm
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indiana law says you dont have to attempt to retreat. they threaten you, you kill them. w00t.
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Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:29pm
Actually if you are in a second story or have no escape route then you have every right to use the a reasonable ammount of force to defend yourself. If you are in the last bedroom and he's gone Jack in the Shining on you you can shoot and kill the intruder. As for Mace in Mass... even that requires a "restricted version" of the FID card -------------
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:31pm
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if you are worried about break in and home invasion, look at a 12g shotgun. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: notXXscared
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:38pm
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=28§ion=products - http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=28§i on=products  ------------- 
Previously DYE PLAYA |
Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:42pm
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Sounds like youre moving to Iraq. ------------- <Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules> |
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:57pm
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Owning a firearm for the purpose of defense is sketchy. I know most forumers won't agree with me though.
How do you know police response time is bad? I gurantee that in an emergency, they could have someone there in 5 minutes even in the middle of the night. |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:00am
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and i'd rather have a gun for those 5 minutes.
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Posted By: .357 Magnum
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:14am
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You really just need a shotgun. A lot of pistols will go through walls but they make home defense ammo. As for pistols, I never liked that everyone and their brother has a 1911. But, most people have customized 1911's. Personally, I love a plain classic looking 1911.  Or if you like stainless and want something with a little more flash,  ------------- 
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:24am
Not like there aren't a billion other ways to protect yourself than shooting the person. |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:35am
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but are there any that will increase my epeen as exponentially? no. but really, thats probably the most effective defense i can think of. Also, when you live out in the country, response times tend to be way longer -------------
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:41am
Stiall unnecessary unless looking cool on the internet and at your local NRA (or KKK, whatever you're into) meeting. Riddle me this: If there is less response time in the country, that would mean there are less cops for a given area. If there are less cops in a given area, there will be less people in this given area. If there are less people, than there are less people to try and kill you in your sleep for no reason at all (That's why you need the gun rite? Or is it to protect yourself from the people breaking into your house that are often unarmed?) If there are less people to try and kill you in your sleep for no reason, than you are safer. If you are safer, why do you need a gun? Unless you live in the country part of the bronx. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:44am
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.357, that's the Springfield G.I.45 milspec, I know this as I own that very weapon.
Merc, for home defense, there are three major factors to consider after, and ONLY after you make the decision that you will be willing to end an intruder's life without prejudice. If you aren't willing to accept that fact and come to terms with the notion that you will end someones life when you equip yourself with a weapon for defensive purposes, then don't buy a fire-arm for home defense. While I'm sure you've already made that decision, I just had to get that out of the way. Now the three things to consider are these (in no specific order)
Knock-down power is important since you don't want them getting back up. Also, not needing to fire off a salvo to put someone down is important as it minimizes the chances of collateral damage due to missing the target or over-penetration. That doesn't mean you want the biggest, baddest round out there as not only do collateral and over penetration issues come into play again but high velocity fire arms tend to have a hefty weight due to the need to compensate both structurally and physically for the inverse action of the projectile being fired (ie recoil). 9mm will do the job, but there are some big people out there that it might not go down if you wing them with a 9mm rather than getting a center-mast shot. 10mm and S&W.40 both pack a little more "oomph" and carry more energy to be dispersed in the target giving you more knock-down without much more recoil. The highest caliber round I would suggest for home defense is .45ACP. It is widely available, and the .45ACP platform has been around long enough that it has been refined to exceptional stability. Now, .45 can come in a hi-cap mag (double stack) but it makes the grip frame a little wide for my taste, so I'm limited to 7 rounds to get the job done. I don't think that would be much of an issue. In home invasion situations there are rarely more than two perps/assailants involved. If you want the security of a higher capacity fire-arm, then I'd suggest something chambered for S&W .40 as it seems to carry a little more energy to target than other mid-range calibers. Collateral penetration is a big issue when considering a home defense weapon. You want to ensure that you don't over-penetrate and kill someone in the next room or even the next house. Almost every caliber suitable for home defense is available in some form of a hollow-point. Not only does that allow you to ensure that the full force of the projectile is transfered to the target, it can also reduce over-penetration issues. That is not to say that there isn't still a very real danger of hitting and killing someone else in your house should you shoot a wall, but the risk is somewhat reduced. Again, the "big guns" like the .44magnum and 500S&W mean a lot more energy which means a lot more penetration even with a hollow-point round, hence my suggestion to again, stay way from anything heavier than .45ACP. Shotguns are popular for home defense as they don't carry as much energy in each individual piece of shot meaning that over penetration issues are again reduced, though not as much as using hollow-points. Finally, ease of use. You want something that you can load easily (never leave a loaded weapon in your house) in the middle of the night with no lights on. This is where handguns have their down-fall in home defense (imho) as slamming a magazine in place when startled from sleep in the dark can take a moment. Shotguns are slightly easier to ensure proper loading with given the circumstances. Of course, you should familiarize yourself with your weapon of choice to the point that the issue of loading should be minimal at worst. Aiming is also a big thing to think about. It's dark, you may be surprised, and you want to make sure that the first shot counts. Again, shotguns are great in this aspect as 12ga. 00-buck gives a good spread after about 5-8 feet without getting too big giving you excellent knock-down power and less chance of collateral penetration. While you may be close to the target, there is more chance of missing with a pistol in the heat of the moment. Personally, my choice would be a two shotguns. You don't need anything expensive for fancy. A Mossberg will work just fine. I like pistols and yes, I do have a .45ACP for both target shooting and home protection, but if I could afford it right now, I'd be picking up a shotgun as well simply due to the fact that it has a lot going for it in home defense. Hope that helps! Remember, practical is always better than expensive. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:49am
Statistically speaking, forced entries into homes are far greater per-capita in outlying suburbs and rural areas. It is far easier for a thief or assailant to enter a rural home due to less public notice given the population density of rural areas than it is in a more populous one. Response times in rural areas also tend to be far greater than urban/suburban ones. While most suburbs have city or county police units, rural areas tend to rely on sheriff-based services or the state police who are responsible for vast territorial jurisdictions with a significantly smaller force. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: gardy90
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:54am
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my family has and always will have firearms in the house, living on a farm, its not that uncommon to take you shotgun/rifle with you when you go out at night, if you hear racket and such. now i realize tht it it much different in the city than on a farm but i belive that having a firearm(notice i did not call it a weapon..) in the house is a good idea, asuming that it is wither locked or hidden away, not just sitting behind the kitchen door. but jsut the fact that you have it is a deturrent in itself, someone breaking in hears the "shlack shlack" of a .12 (even if its not loaded) will turn right around and haul A**
------------- "FIRST THERE" a-5 16" J&J ceramic polished internals X7 low profile hopper costom painted 20 oz tank |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:56am
yup yup. i dont have to worry as much about my neighbors killing me or raping my daughter, but knowing that response times will be much slower mkaes thieves/ other harmdoers much more likely to target my home. im not covered by city cops, but by sherrifs and states as tallen said. I feel like not being prepared to protect my family from anything, as much as i would prefer not to have to, would be a gross example of neglect. -------------
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:57am
I just doubt it happens enough to need a gun. And I don't think that a gun would be the proper response in 90% of situations anyways |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:01am
but that 10% could really mess things up. always be prepared. I've never gotten in a car wreck and dont plan to, but i still have auto insurance. i dont plan on ever having a heart attack or stroke or any serious medical condition, but i still have health insurance. i dont plan on any intruder trying to come into my home and harming me or my family, but i still have a gun. -------------
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Posted By: gardy90
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:14am
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amen to that, all it takes is that one "i wish i had a gun" moment or situation
------------- "FIRST THERE" a-5 16" J&J ceramic polished internals X7 low profile hopper costom painted 20 oz tank |
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:25am
Or just come to Canada
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Posted By: gardy90
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:30am
sounds like a plan
------------- "FIRST THERE" a-5 16" J&J ceramic polished internals X7 low profile hopper costom painted 20 oz tank |
Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:32am
Better safe than sorry. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Just to throw a few good cliches out there. ------------- 
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:34am
That's like saying, "The chances of me crashing my car are so slim that I'm not going to wear my seatbelt." -------------
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Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:36am
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Carl, really. Is the constant, condescending anti-gun BS necessary? Almost every thread I've seen that has to do with guns, you're the first in with some sort of "Redneck/NRA/KKK" comment. We get it. You don't like the idea of home-defense weaponry. If you haven't noticed, not one person who's thread has had the pleasure of the grace of your presence has cared. We won't change your mind, and indeed we aren't trying to. And in turn you won't change ours, so stop trying. Will you take what I wrote seriously? Probably not. Do I care that you don't care? No. I'm just tired of every firearms thread becoming an argument over the 2nd amendment that you started, which ironically doesn't even concern you.
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:36am
why the hell would i do a thing like that? becuase of your ignorantly liberal drinking laws? your lack of resolve on the cuban trade embargo? the only reason i can think of to move to canada is your acceptance of firearms for the purpose of defense in case the police are not sufficient. -------------
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:35am
I love guns. The kkk thing was obviously a joke. I am just against the idea of everyone needing a gun to protect themselves when there are so many better ways for home security and protection.
Actually, you are quite backwards on that one. If you are looking for light restrictions on firearms for self defense, you are in the right place. |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:57am
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that was what i was getting at.
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Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 3:41am
Never said you didn't.
Judging from your general attitude in these kinds of threads, sometimes I wonder...
K. And if a person wants a gun for home security, how does this affect you? If he has a gun and never has to use it (other than for recreation), then what harm can come out of it? It takes a LOT of personal fortification to end someone's life. I'm sure if he has the option, he won't use the gun. If he feels more secure with a last line of defense, so be it. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:34am
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haha yeah EE you are dead on about the restricted FID card for mace. i just buy mine online, or in new hampshire. i should get that card though. and my class A our CCP. just to have it. i wont be getting a pistol though.i'd like a .22 rifle to play with.
get this weapon for home defense... http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=18 - SPringfield Armory |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 10:19am
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EvilElvis makes some great points here. Here in Michigan if you shoot someone in self defense in your home there's a very high probability that you'll be prosecuted. The first option is to run. My buddy is looking into the Mossberg can thing for home defense for he and his wife. He was one of those "no need to arm oneself" people until his neighborhood started getting break-ins. Take an NRA firearms safety course from a reputable facility. The low priced courses at our largest range is a 1 day joke program. Look for a course that lasts a week or 2 and goes the extra mile by having speakers from the judicial system and full days dedicated to range time. It's probably very tough to find a good place to get a complete course. I've found the "I've got a cop buddy that trains for CCW" are just get rich quick schemes. Don't get me wrong, alot of those guys are my friends.
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Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 10:25am
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Judging by most of your comments on the matter, I hope NONE of you own guns. Don't need more idiots running around with them. ------------- <Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules> |
Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 11:04am
| bolt would you care if i ran around with a gun? haha |
Posted By: .357 Magnum
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 11:05am
Of course it's a .45 thats one of my favorite pistol rounds.... But it two will have no issue going through walls. -------------
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Posted By: chaibill
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 11:19am
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Just Use a good security system. Maybe set up some sort of "strong room" in your house. Or set up your master bed room with a steel door that looks like wood. If you have small children and they see you kill some one that might be really bad for them psychologically. Maybe even your self. And most burglars will come in when you are not home so they will take all your nice new guns and maybe kill some one with them at a later time. And with that new idea to serial number stamp the cartage when fired you might be blamed in a civil case just for owning a fire arm and letting it get stolen. Then you can sew your security provider for not getting the police there fast enough and they can sew the police for not responding fast enough.
------------- P68 68 carbine Viper M1 |
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:26pm
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:29pm
A gun should not be your one and only defencive measure in a house- but if everything else fails, it's the best last chance you have. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:09pm
Not just that, but a gun is by far one of the less effective measures of home defense when you compare it to other preventative measures. This is simply because there are few situations where a gun will really be the deciding factor. It is completely situational. It would have to be a case where you are on one end of your home, and you have enough time to retrieve your firearm and load it, and then properly use it. While situations where this is the case could very well arise, there are a ton of preventive measures that are much, much better than simply relying on a firearm to keep a home safe. Like EE said, a loud alarm system with plenty of notification of the alarm outside the house is key. Keeping it well lit on the outside with simple, cheap motion detection lights prevents invisible entry. Strong locks on doors and visable locks on windows makes forced entry harder. All of those are by far more effective than a gun. Not to mention, more burglaries occur when the house is empty than when the owners are home, which means those guns you are getting have a bad chance of winding up in the hands of criminals and perpetuating the gun problem in America. If you are going to get a firearm for home defense, nothing is better than a basic pump-action shotgun. The one thing that a shotgun has going for it over a pistol is the sound effect. The cocking of a pump-action shotgun is usually going to be enough for an intruder to think "Hey, maybe this is not such a good idea." ------------- 
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:15pm
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Which is why you lock them in a gun-safe that's bolted to the floor. -------------
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Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:18pm
Oh I agree completely. The problem is the amount of gun owners in America that actually do that. -------------
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:39pm
Truf. Dumbasses always ruin everything for the rest of us. -------------
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Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:40pm
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Especially, ironically, with a shotgun. Nothing says "not tonight, honey", like a giant shotgun-sized gun safe bolted to the floor in the bedroom. Shotguns may be a great home-defense weapon, but I suspect that they are even more likely than handguns to be stored in either an inaccessible or unsafe manner.
------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 3:11pm
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speaking of guns, i just got a call from my dad saying that my CCW permit came in last week!
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Posted By: ¤ Råp¡Ð F¡rè ¤
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 3:25pm
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Where are you living? I live in a pretty bad area (family is trying to get out of here), and all we do is keep bats around; the guns stay locked up. Also, I don't know what the laws are in your area, but in MO, you can only shoot and kill an intruder if they are still in your house. So the second they step out the door, don't shoot. ------------- 
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Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 3:57pm
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Word. A baseball bat is all you need. ------------- <Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules> |
Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 6:24pm
haha that what my cousin did for a while until he could afford a nice gun case to bolt to the floor. and now his wife doesnt know how many guns he has. he only keeps one pistol out of the case, thats in his night stand. other than that. everything is in his gun case, which holds like 18 weapons. and is full hahaha. |
Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 7:32pm
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Translation: Your cousin has unsafe gun ownership practices. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:01pm
| how is that unsafe ownership practices? he has a huge gun safe, fire proof and what not. bolted to the ground. prior to him having that, he had weapons throughout his home in various spots but that didnt last long, his wife didnt like it and thus he bought the massive gunsafe. |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:02pm
Fixed
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having it for home safety? ------------- Que pasa? 
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Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:19pm
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The guns in the safe are irrelevant. Your cousin keeps a (presumably loaded) handgun in his nightstand. Easy access for children, thieves, and snooping visitors. If he keeps a trigger lock on it, that is another matter (as to the children, anyway), but I am guessing not... ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Man Bites Dog
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:24pm
That is the catch-22, exactly why a gun is not all that great for "home defense." You either have to leave it out and loaded, making it easily accessible but also making you a very irresponsible gun owner. Or, you can keep it locked up like a responsible gun owner, but that makes it harder to get to if the situation does present itself. -------------
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Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:26pm
| he has no children so he is good there. and no children go there. as for it being loaded. as far as i know he has a magazine near by with rounds in it, but no rounds are in the gun itself. and trigger lock. i am pretty sure with the key also near by. |
Posted By: bravecoward
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:34pm
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I personally think a crossbow is a good alternative
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:35pm
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I'm not sure if anyone actually sells them, but, many moons ago, I remember hearing about a magnetic internal trigger lock that can be installed so that the gun can only be fired if the user is wearing a magnetic ring. So, get one of those, magnetize your wedding ring, and install a fingerprint scanner on your safe. It would probably be the quickest way to access a gun while still being a responsible owner. ------------- 
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Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:38pm
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Ok, so I promote him from "competely reckless" to "irresponsible". Specific categorization depends on how frequently he locks up the gun when he leaves the room.
------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: ammolord
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 9:06pm
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i havent had problems with my 9mm ruger. ------------- PSN Tag: AmmoLord XBL: xXAmmoLordXx ~Minister of Tinkering With Things That Go "BOOM!"(AKA Minister of Munitions)~ |
Posted By: CarbineKid
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 11:26pm
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I am going to try and stay away from the argument about guns. Instead I will go right to my suggestions. All of which I have.
I will assume that you already have/will have dead bolts and locks on all your windows. A home security system is a good first step. However you should not rely on it. We had one and it failed, my mom paid he price for it. Second, if you don't already have one get a dog. Not only are they great pets but they will sense things/people around the house before you do. A barking dog can scare off would be intruders, and the typical door to door salesman:) Finally get a firearm that you can handle. A 357 is a good choice, but if your like me a 9mm or 40 cal is the better bet because I can shoot them better. Oh yes its also important to know your local laws, and TAKE TRAINING CLASSES. Someone on here said the cops are only a few minutes away. That may very well be true, but it only takes a few seconds for you to lose your life. Besides the cops are not obligated to protect you, thats your job. &n bsp; |
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 11:28pm
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If you guys are so sure that a Break in is Eminent then I suggest that you take the TRUE castle Doctrine.
Step 1- Dig a moat. And fill it with Gators or other otherworldy watery beasts. Use a Draw Bridge doors are for victims. 
Step 2- Hire a Rude Frenchman to insult all would be Burglars and Siegers.  -------------
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 11:33pm
Does being responsible with your guns make it less likely that you'll actually get to use them? Yes. Does that mean I'm not going to have one for home defense? No. Even if I didn't like to shoot for sport and hunting, I'd really hate to be in that 1/100 situation where I could have used a gun and didn't have one. Especially once/if I have a family later in life, I'd like to do everything in my power to protect them. Personally, I have all my long-guns locked up in a safe that's bolted to the floor in a closet. I have one handgun (unloaded if it's sitting around but with ammunition nearby), that stays out of the safe and either within sight (if there are no children/dumbasses around), or on my person. When I sleep, it goes under my matress near my head and where I can reach it easily. If that's irresponsible gun ownership, I'd like to hear how and why. -------------
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Posted By: Susan Storm
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 1:46am
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That sounds like a challenge to me... :) But that also sounds pretty responsible. If your not-locked-up handgun is on your person or in sight, then you are in control of your situation. It's part where people leave the handgun in the nightstand while they go out and about that bothers me. No gun should be left unattended and unsecured. ------------- "No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 5:31am
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My gunsafe is full of loaded guns. Why? Why the hell not? They are perfectly safe inside the gunsafe. They aren't going to shoot themselves. And getting my 870 out the gunsafe and not having to worry about doing anything more than racking the slide is a good idea at KISS principle.
My self defence handgun is on my hip at all times. The only times it is not is night time, when it is in a quick access, battery back-up'd safe at the head of the bed. Why is this? Because bad peope do bad things. Is it the only form of defence? No. I have bars on all the windows, I have security gates on all my doors. I have alarms, motion detectors, magnets on doors and tremble sensors on windows. I also have an armed response company on call. I have made it as hard as I can for people to get into my house. But that does not mean I am going to stop there. If a person has bypassed all those, I sure as hell want something that'll give me an advantage once they are inside. Very few people have contingency plans for once the badguys are in. Idiotic suggestions like "moving" are not going to contribute to the discussion. Obviously there are reasons behind why people live where they do. If it was so easy that peopel could just up and move, don't you think they would? Besides generally people buy houses in nice places, and over time the crime rate rises. Now I have to leave my home because some criminal low lifes want to rob houses near me? That is the wrong way around. Back on question. There are some pretty good suggestions here already. One that people have mentioned is overpenetration. This can be a problem with things like Shotguns, actually. Something with a frangible round, like a .223 will break up when they encounter walls, even drywall. Shotgun rounds do not. 00 buckshot pellets have been proven to penetrate interior walls further and to carry their energy better through them than .223 does. Shotguns are also heavy and unwieldy. They are decent close combat weapons, but they are poorly suited for shooting inside family homes. While you shouldn't ever be shooting near hostages, if you do ever need to shoot near a friendly shotguns have a disadvantage. The shot will still be very tight and compact at indoor ranges, but the wad is a different story. It is unpredictable. It can fly pretty much anywhere. I've seen them veer pretty drastically off course. Shotguns are attractive because they are cheap, easy to use, and many people think they are point and click interfaces. Most of these are actually wrong. While a stock 870 or such will work, if you kit the shotgun out "properly" it can easily run as much as an AR of some sorts. I wouldn't increase the mag tube too much on a shotgun, because you want it fairly short and fairly handy, but this limits you to 5 or 6 rounds. Sights, while many people say you don't use sights with shotguns or in CQB, this is 100% wrong. Sighted shooting is far superior to point shooting. At least a high visibility front sight, if not full rifle style sights are needed. Keep the stock. Pistol grip shotguns are for movies and Noobs. Get an AR style collapsable one if you NEED it short. But it's better to get the correct length of pull sized stock, and learn to use it better. This costs money. Light mounts? it's hard to use a torch and a pump shotgun at the same time. Shooting a shotgun, especially under stress isn't easy. Short stoking it means you can jam it. Not pumping it between shots means one-shot wonders. Inserting the ammo incorectly can jam up the whole system. There are a million and one things that can go wrong with a shotgun, and fixing them isn't easy. Many people suggest using a semi to bypass these. What's the advantage over a semi auto AR then? People talk about the "stopping power" of a shotgun. This is one place where the shotgun does shine. It does hit hard. And there is a limited chance of over penetrating your TARGET, yes. But at indoor distances a .223 will do just as well, and you can carry 30 of them in a mag. Personally, for house defence, if I could, I'd buy either a decent AR-15 style weapon chambered in .223 and load it with light weight ballistic tip ammo or the older 55 grain military round. Remember civilians are not bound by the Hauge treaty. Hollow points and rounds designed to maximise damage against soft tissue are your friend. The AR is an easy to use system with few failings. It will be lighter, easier to move with, easier to shoot, and with a load just as deadly as 12 guage. It also allows things like lights, sights and lasers to be easily attached. My second bet, and if you are on a budget, would be an M1 carbine. These things were custom designed for close quaters work. The design is a little dated, but it is easy enough to update them. Their action is easy to understand, they are simple and reliable, and they work. Load it up with jacketed soft points and you will have a damn fine home defence gun. You can have 15 round original mags, or M2 30 round mags. This is a Chakote modified M1 with a pistol grip light weight synthetic stock and red dot sight. 
You can easily get lasers and lights attached to it. light weight, easy to shoot, and it points easily. And up close hits like the hammer of Thor. 2000fps of 110grain hollow point love, and you are delivering almost a thousand footpounds. Over twice the energy from a .45ACP. The other suggestions are ok. Anyone can shoot a .45ACP. This is a first time shooter, EVER, touching off a 210grain SWC from a shorty 1911. 
True she's let the sights lift off target, but that's something she'll learn to controll. Any handgun you can shoot comfortably, and well, should be your home defence gun. Personally I'd equipp it with a laser. Many people pooh pooh lasers as toys, but in low light situation (when most home invasions happen) they are easy to see, and fast to acquire. Companies like Crimson Trace make lasers that don't interfere with the function of the weapon. Grip the handle and they turn on. All the 1911 suggestions are good, as are the Sig suggestions. One thing to think about is weapon mounted lights will sometimes get in the way of things like Crimson Traser Laser Grips. Soemthing to consider when "kitting out" your gun. There are also a wide number of weapon retention devices around that allow both secure storage and quick access to weapons. Quick access handgun safes http://www.lockandloadsafe.com/ll2.htm Long arm lock up. http://www.santacruzgunlocks.com/ There is another one who's name escapes me at the moment that allows you to mount the weapon on a wall , loaded. The lock up part covers the action and the trigger. allowing you to quickly unlock it and access it. Ao back to the original post. I'd suggest and AR. In .223 (M4 looka likes, AR-15's, Mini 14's, FNC's, Galil's, the like) or .30 carbine (M1.....), and then any decent handgun. Springfield, Colt, Ed Brown, Les Bauer..... KBK Edit, Bah, Photobucket acting up. |
Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 5:50am
just gona say i never said its unattended when its in the nightstand. he is at home when its there. otherwise he is wearing it, or gunsafe. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 9:35am
I lifted these images off M1911.Org. This is about the perfect 1911 for a house defence gun.
As you can see, a 1911 style, single stack weapon, with rails for a light, and a "built in" Crimson Trace Lasergrip laser. It is a NightHawk custom gun, so I've no idea how much it'll set you back, but it's pretty much all there. Extended saftey, one touch light and the constant on laser grip. Everything you need to operate a firearm, identify the target and aim, one handed. This is the perfect weapon to have in your strong hand, covering the door, while your weak hand holds your phone to your ear and you wait for 911 to answer. An added bonus is the Novak low mounted night sights, for shooting in the "dark" and the beavertail to prevent hammer bite (Something I've never experienced in 10 years shooting a 1911). In the second pic you can see the laser will easily pass the light mount. Loaded with high velocity JHP's and you'll be set. If you want a long gun to go with it, the M1 Carbine, also tricked out. Hey, they were both good enough to help win WWII. On a side note, why the single stack .45? If it is a house gun, you can use as many rounds in the grip as you want. If you want something nice and small, get a polymer frame, along the lines of a Bul M5. 14 rounds on .45ACP in a frame not much bigger than a standard 1911. The trick is the lack of side pannels. It's plastic one piece grip keeps the max width roughly that of a standard 1911's but with only a little more bulk. My brother carries one as a CCW. Charles Delay (SP?) import them to the USA IIRC. KBK |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 10:15am
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"Fixed"?? and why did you replace what I had said with "Moving"? Please enlighten me. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: X-51
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 6:31pm
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OFT I cannot recall how many times I've heard that "shoot him in the knee" or other region garbage but if you honestly consider getting a ccw throw it out right now. Two shots center of mass that's all she wrote, anything else is not only dangerous to others but illegal. ------------- Once we clued in on the fact that life is finite, the thought of losing it didn't scare us anymore. The end comes no matter what, all that matters is how you wanna go out, on your feet or your knees? |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 1:54am
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Yeah, but I thought that had been covered already.
If you are shooting someone, you are using lethal force. In some states brandishing a firearm is lethal force. If you try to shoot him in the knee, and do something like hit his femoral artery and he bleeds out and dies, what you gonna tell the judge? You didn't feel justified in using lethal force, but you did anyway? Doesn't fly. That and the center of the chest is the easiest target. It moves the least, it's the largest area, and it's pretty well stocked with things that'll incapacitate the badguy if they get damaged. KBK |
Posted By: .636
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:15am
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Home defense = 12.5 inch barreled 870 with a pistol grip loaded with #4 buckshot. Not legal but no one in Canada has been charged for shooting a home invader...yet ------------- |
Posted By: Cheetos3254
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 10:39am
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Buy a Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle and snipe people from your windows if they get too close. ------------- 
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 10:44am
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you're seriously advocating an illegal weapon? On a public forum? You're joking, right?
Besides, pistol grip shotguns are idiotic. |
Posted By: -ProDigY-
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 10:58am
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------------- 
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 11:23am
Jesus isn't a gun nut. Gosh darn, you anti-reliegious/anti-gun nuts are out of control. ------------- 
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Posted By: reifidom
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 2:53pm
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I keep a handgun in my bedroom. The clip is elsewhere in my bedroom. Neither are hidden in conventional places. I can have them both in my hand, together, and ready to fire inside of fifteen seconds. No kids in the house, and we never have unattended guests.
If the need arises and I can't comfortably reach the gun and have it ready to go, I have no intention of indicating I even have one rather than elevating the situation. If it's to be lethal force I want to be the one to initiate it and without warning. If the outcome isn't as certain as I'm comfortable with then playing along is the best bet. I've had it out twice, both after hearing strange noises from the main floor. Both turned out to be nothing, but I did have a stranger come to our house shortly after we moved in and ring the bell, then, as I approached the door on the tile floor he quickly walked away and wouldn't answer my calls. It's hard to see if we're home from the front of the house as most of our interior living space is towards the back. I had the impression the guy was casing the house, trying to see if anybody would answer the door or if it was clear to come back. My layout is such that the only practical place to break in without an extension ladder would be the main floor or garage and with even slight warning I can have the pistol ready to go and be above and behind anybody coming up toward the bedrooms with a clear line of sight of the front door, foyer, and the entire upper hall. ------------- 
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:01pm
That does not seem so hard to understand, but whatever. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:12pm
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Because you have no clue, do you? ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:13pm
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please explain. maybe just maybe I'll understand your view. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:15pm
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If he is worried about a break in, he should move.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:18pm
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AHHHH! So crime does not follow you if you move to a "safer" neighborhood. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:18pm
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I'll explain for him. The concept is actually quite simple. If you live someplace where you feel endangered you should pack up your stuff and go elsewhere. It is up to you suffer the inconvenience of dislocating your family because the rights of the folks endangering you to not be shot by an irate homeowner while committing a felony take precedence over the rights of homeowner's to protect themselves and their families.
-------------
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:21pm
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So moving to a better neighborhood means no crime?? ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:22pm
Yeah, pretty much. I know you aren't agreeing though. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Da Hui
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:25pm
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Haven't had any use for it other than target shooting. I hope that doesn't ever change. Ruger Security-Six .357 Magnum  Edit: Its kept in an safe place. No little kid or guest to our house would ever find it or even be able to get it. Kept locked and secure. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:33pm
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Yes, because no matter where you go, crime is going to be there in one form or another. if someone wants to break into your home for whatever it is to steal what you have, they are going to do it. Safe, secure neighborhoods don't exist. The only thing that makes neighborhoods safe are your neighbors watching out for you as well as you watching out for them. Where I live on Long Island, we have the east coast Beverely Hills, The Hamptons. a Bucks Deluxe neighborhood. Scum from the south shore and points west, still go to the Hamptons and do house break ins/home invasions all of the time in secure neighborhoods. Why move? be aware and alert and watch out for your neighbor because they will watch out for you. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:36pm
Because it's my fault I have nice things in my house that people will want to steal. Moving isn't always an option. With the house prices where I live there isn't any possibility for me getting a 3 bedroom, two bathroom house with a garden for anything near an affordable price. We've been here for years. We bought when the land prices were low, they are now sky high. A flat, FLAT that's two bedrooms, one bathroom, no garage is roughly the same price as we paid for this house. I can't afford to go elsewhere. Other people are in similar situations. Add onto that I have to live within easy travelling distance of my place of work, and because I work such odd hours there is no chance of taking public transport, I can't relocate. Besides, this is my home. Why should I give it up? I live in a nice safe, low crime area. However these are the sort of places that have home invasions with rape and murder. The chances of it happening are low, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. And I'm going to do everything in my power to fight it if it does happen. So "moving" is pretty much a bloody stupid thing to say. KBK |
Posted By: X-51
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:37pm
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I have to agree with ceesmen on this one, packing your stuff and hightailing it out of there doesn't mean that your destination is a utopia. Sterling Heights was voted in the top five safest cities in the nation a couple years back and still we managed to have a police killing occur later that very year. ------------- Once we clued in on the fact that life is finite, the thought of losing it didn't scare us anymore. The end comes no matter what, all that matters is how you wanna go out, on your feet or your knees? |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:39pm
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Thank You Kay, well put. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: X-51
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:40pm
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Kayback are you british?
------------- Once we clued in on the fact that life is finite, the thought of losing it didn't scare us anymore. The end comes no matter what, all that matters is how you wanna go out, on your feet or your knees? |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:43pm
I take it I didn't disguise my sarcasm well? -------------
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Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:46pm
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ive been reading along getting ideas just not posting.
sounds like il be getting a 12 guage or maybe a 410 and a 9mm or .45 pistol (after i go shoot a bunch and see which one i like best.) the neighborhood im moving too is a VERY nice neighborhood. i dont have to be afraid of drug dealers or "ghetto folk" like a few of the other neighborhoods we looked at. in a neighborhood where the houses range from 150k-220k drug dealers and random crime can be a threat. (violent crimes outside the home) in a neighborhood where the houses range from 300k-700k+ im more afraid of someone braking in. ------------- saving the world, one warship at a time. |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 4:13pm
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First off, I wasn't being serious at all when I first posted it. Second, Kay you said that you live in a safe, low crime area. If you live in a safe low crime area then why would you fell the need to arm yourself in case of a possible break in? I will look at statistics right now, but I'm willing to bet that most break ins occur when the homeowners are away. If you seriously feel there is a high chance of someone breaking into your home, or a high rate of crime then you should look into moving due to your own safety. I'm also willing to bet that most people breaking in aren't armed. They will probably also run at the sight of you, never mind the gun. Not to mention, if you are all safe gun owners like you claim to be then your guns will be locked in a safe, unloaded, and possibly a trigger lock. If someone broke into your home with intent to harm do you really think you would get your gun ready to shoot fast enough? They would probably get in silently and be in your room before you knew it. ------------- Que pasa?
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