Paintball Ideas / News From Tippmann - The age old paintball range problem...

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The age old paintball range problem...

Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: Tippmann Paintball
Forum Name: Paintball Ideas / News From Tippmann
Forum Description: Got a new idea or a way to improve something?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=175013
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Topic: The age old paintball range problem...

Posted By: Bonte
Subject: The age old paintball range problem...
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 8:11pm

After looking over the fact that paintball guns have horrible range i looked over the options by seeing what gun manufacturers do to improve range....

There are basically two or three factors

Charge Load (gunpowder, co2 what have you)

Actual bullet weight and size
Bullet aerodynamics.

Now the first factor cannot be changed because of field regulations wich require 280-300 fps on guns... meaning all guns have the same charge load....

Now the second subject intrigued me... it seemed simple..why not make a .48 caliber paintball gun to fire those .48 cal blowgun paintball rounds? if you look at surface area and volume forulas a decrease from .68 to .48 would be drastic and could posibly result in 100+feet increased distance.

The third step...This step would be very hard because of the current way paintballs are fed. Round balls are easily fed in a hopper where as bullet shaped balls would require clips to be fed with.

Now if you know anything about guns a 7mm08 and a 3- 08 have the same charge but different size bullets the 7mm bullet as a result tavels much further...

so what do you think?

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Tippmann 98 Custom
Combat stock
red dot sight
Lapco offset sight
Flatline barrel

Replies:

Posted By: The Guy
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 10:11pm

don't use gun powder to fire paintballs. You're just retarded if you do.
lighter paint won't go as far, since the paintball still has to leave the barrel going the same speed.
the whole football shaped paintballs, paintballs with fins, bullet shaped, has been suggested time and time again. It get shot down every time because of te fact, that a gun would have to be designed to use it.
You forgot spin. The flatline and Apex actually can add range. However, the paintball still slows down at a constant rate, meaning at long range it won't break.

So rather than trying to play sniper, just work on your tactics. Since those are variables that ARE in your control.

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http://www.anomationanodizing.com - My Site

Posted By: notom66866
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 10:22pm

When I started playing paintball there was a place that used powder cartridges. They shot at something like 500-650 fps. The markers were uzi's. They had no accuracy beyond 20". Full auto though. It was pretty cool.

Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:31pm

Bonte wrote:

. . . so what do you think?

I think there are things you haven't considered.

For instance, E = 1/2mv^2 (where E = kinetic energy, m = mass and v = velocity.)

Gravity affects all objects in the same manner. In other words, two paintballs traveling at different velocities fired horizontal to the ground will fall at the same rate; the only difference is that one will travel farther than the other in the time it takes both to hit the ground.

With this in mind, consider that a standard paintball fired horizontal to the ground at 300 fps from 5 ft above the ground (average shoulder height) will travel approximately 113 ft before striking the ground. Using the same ratio of velocity to distance* (300/113) it would require a velocity of around 565 fps to gain the extra 100 ft of range mentioned in the post above.

The weight of an average .68 paintball is approximately** 0.002 lb.

The weight of an average .48 paintball*** would be approximately**** 0.0007 lb.

A .68 paintball traveling at 300 fps therefore has around 90 ft/lbs***** of force.

A .48 paintball traveling at 565 fps would have around 112 ft/lbs of force.

The statements which follow regarding psi assume square hits on the target and that the contact surface of the paintball will achieve full expansion (up to the size of the round) before breaking:

Pounds per square inch (psi) of pressure from the hit can be determined by dividing the kinetic energy****** of the round by the size of the contact surface.

The force from the standard sized paintball is around 133 psi.

The force from the .48 paintball would be around 233 psi. (Or the equivalent of a standard paintball moving at 397 fps.******)

the 300 fps limit was selected to prevent the breaking of small bones at close range and masks are certified for velocities of 300 fps or below. Thus the idea carries some significant safety risks with it and would probably require multiple changes in the sport to be safely used.

Additionally:

There is no guarantee that the smaller caliber paint would break at longer ranges. The .40, .43 and .50 paint that is used in specialty markers (like the RAP series or the Splatmatic pistols and "shotguns") and blowguns already has a reputation for being "break proof."

Of course it could be manufactured with a weaker shell, but then the question arises if it could handle being fired at over 500 fps.

The lighter paint could also be more susceptible to the effects of crosswinds.

This is a complaint I've heard from some RAP users; the paint is light enough to be easily affected by the wind but still large enough to offer a good cross section to catch the wind.

As for changing the shape of paintballs; several alternate shapes have been tried including ones with little fins and none have caught on.

*Probably not the most accurate way to figure this, but it's what I have available. I did not figure in additional wind resistance that would be experienced throughout the flight of the faster paintball either.
**Very rough approximation. (I weighed a pound of paintballs, counted them and did some math.)
***I didn't know they made .48 paintballs.
****Extrapolated based on volume comparisons.
*****Kinetic energy is usually measured in Joules, but I'm not even going to try to bring the metric system into this.
******Full kinetic energy is used to simulate a worst case (close range) scenario.
*******Figured from the following formula with the known variables inserted: 158 = 1/2 * 0.002 * X^2

Edited Addition:

The Guy wrote:

don't use gun powder to fire paintballs. You're just retarded if you do.

True; but I don't think he was advocating that.

The Guy wrote:

lighter paint won't go as far, since the paintball still has to leave the barrel going the same speed.

Also true; as I pointed out, gravity is an equal opportunity force. I took his post to mean he wanted to fire at higher velocities with the smaller round.

The Guy wrote:

the whole football shaped paintballs, paintballs with fins, bullet shaped, has been suggested time and time again. It get shot down every time because of te fact, that a gun would have to be designed to use it.

Yep, there's a reason RAP has started making .68 markers.

The Guy wrote:

You forgot spin. The flatline and Apex actually can add range. However, the paintball still slows down at a constant rate, meaning at long range it won't break.

Have to disagree a bit on this one. Balls fired from the backspin barrels actually retain velocity slightly (but not significantly) better than those fired from standard barrels. They have the added advantage of allowing solid hits (thus increasing the chance of breakage) at ranges where other barrels can only get glancing hits because of the arc required to get the ball there in the first place. At the longest ranges breaks are unlikely, but they allow a chance for hits (and the occasional break on a hard surface) that are not possible at all with other barrels.

The Guy wrote:

So rather than trying to play sniper, just work on your tactics. Since those are variables that ARE in your control.

Good advice. I will also add, just so there is no misunderstanding, the Flatline and Apex are not sniper barrels; they are however very good tools for suppressive fire.

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Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 1:57am

notom66866 wrote:

When I started playing paintball there was a place that used powder cartridges. They shot at something like 500-650 fps. The markers were uzi's. They had no accuracy beyond 20". Full auto though. It was pretty cool.

The Model 85. And people think Rainmakers and Vectors are loud...

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Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 8:25am

DeTrevni wrote:

The Model 85. And people think Rainmakers and Vectors are loud...

Those were the predecessors to Sim Round guns weren't they?

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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 11:58am

DeTrevni wrote:

The Model 85.

http://www.securityarms.com/forums/showthread.php?t=756 - Link to forum with details.

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Posted By: Bonte
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:03pm

The Guy wrote:

don't use gun powder to fire paintballs. You're just retarded if you do.

If you read my post carefully i was using points from all forms of ballistics...as i said i was trying to look at a paintball gun as a "gun" and looked at how "guns" receive better range throught velocity and bullet size....

I was suggesting a smaller bullet size keeping the 300fps velocity...the smaller bullet size would allow the round to travel furthur without arcing down....and yes there is a relation ship between bulletsize and travel...In the gun business larger bullets ar made for greater stopping power,...but in paintball stopping power isnt needed , therefor a smaller round would be better.

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Tippmann 98 Custom
Combat stock
red dot sight
Lapco offset sight
Flatline barrel

Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:22pm

Bonte wrote:

If you read my post carefully i was using points from all forms of ballistics...as i said i was trying to look at a paintball gun as a "gun" and looked at how "guns" receive better range throught velocity* and bullet size....

I was suggesting a smaller bullet size keeping the 300fps velocity*...the smaller bullet size would allow the round to travel furthur without arcing down....and yes there is a relation ship between bulletsize and travel...In the gun business larger bullets ar made for greater stopping power,...but in paintball stopping power isnt needed , therefor a smaller round would be better.

Basic (simplified) physics lesson time.

Gravity is a standard force (approx. 32 ft/s^2) and it effects all objects equally.
In firearms ballistics there can be a relationship between bullet size and travel.

The same size powder charge will send a smaller bullet farther than a larger bullet.
This is because the smaller bullet has less mass.

Thus less inertia for the energy of the powder charge to overcome.
Thus, the smaller bullet can reach a higher velocity.

The higher velocity allows the smaller bullet to travel a longer horizontal distance than the larger (and slower) bullet in the time that gravity causes it to fall the vertical distance to the ground.

They both hit the ground in the same amount of time, one just goes farther in that given time.

A smaller paintball fired at 300 fps is moving at the same speed as a larger paintball fired at 300 fps. (Obviously)

Gravity is (as pointed out earlier) affecting both equally.
Both will hit the ground in the same amount of time.
Thus both will travel the same distance before hitting the ground.

Summation: A .48 round fired at 300 fps would have essentially the same range as a .68 round fired at 300 fps. It would possess less kinetic energy (31.5 ft/lbs compared to 90 ft/lbs) which means hits would be less likely to be felt or break. It would make a significantly smaller mark if it broke because it contains approximately 1/3 the paint (based on volume) of a normal round. In other words, it would not "be better."

*Bold added for emphasis.

Edited Note: Most of the other negatives to the smaller round mentioned in my first post do, of course, still apply.

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Posted By: thejudge
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:53pm

forget college... im comin here for physics class... whens the midterm again?

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Stay low, run fast, and hope that paintball doesn't hit your...
http://www.deltasquad.info/">

Posted By: tippmannfreak
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:56pm

^ the range of a different caliber paintballs can't be compared just by the generic KE equation. The range of the paintball is effected by the drag on the ball. If a .48 caliber paintball has proportionally less drag than a .68 caliber paintball, it may travel further. It would have to be so much less (proportionally) to make up for the lightness of it though (the .48).

Posted By: notom66866
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:59pm

Ya thats it, model 85. The field had them set to semi auto with some kind of restricting bolt. But we learned that if you "tap" them repeatedly against something. the bolt came loose and you could fire full auto. You only had about 2 seconds of fire before you emptied the clip.

Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 1:13pm

tippmannfreak wrote:

^ the range of a different caliber paintballs can't be compared just by the generic KE equation. The range of the paintball is effected by the drag on the ball. If a .48 caliber paintball has proportionally less drag than a .68 caliber paintball, it may travel further. It would have to be so much less (proportionally) to make up for the lightness of it though (the .48).

Very true. The range for the .68 paintball was determined using a trajectory calculator that factors in drag. The range for the .48 paintball was (as I pointed out in the text) extrapolated from this. This means that the drag factor for a .68 was extrapolated as well. However, as I also pointed out (in the first footnote), additional drag due to additional range was not factored in for the .48 paintball. Neither was the increase in drag due to the increased velocity of the .48 paintball. Frankly, I did not feel like doing the additional calculations because they would only marginally change the data which is sufficient for the discussion as presented. If you feel differently about this, please feel free to complete and post the additional calculations for our discussion.

Edited Note: tippmannfreak's comment has motivated me to see if I can write a trajectory calculator that allows different size paintballs to be used. I'm putting it on my project list for this summer.

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Posted By: paintballa43708
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 3:01pm

u need to think about how bad it would hurt having a bullet shape because a ball spreads force evenly bullet not so much

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Pain Is Weakness Leaving The Body

Posted By: T RAV29
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 3:10pm

thejudge wrote:

forget college... im comin here for physics class... whens the midterm again?

lol i am joining also

Posted By: thejudge
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 6:14pm

paintballa43708 wrote:

u need to think about how bad it would hurt having a bullet shape because a ball spreads force evenly bullet not so much

That and you would be very limited to your "hopper" options. Clip only I guess.

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Stay low, run fast, and hope that paintball doesn't hit your...
http://www.deltasquad.info/">

Posted By: paintballa43708
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 8:30am

and its not to much fun playing with a clip...

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Pain Is Weakness Leaving The Body

Posted By: techietaichi
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 10:25am

The Guy wrote:

"Don't use gun powder to fire paintballs. You're just retarded if you do."

Stupid human tricks.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCZWhJCF6Ig">

Posted By: paintballa43708
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 2:21pm

plus if you use gun powder now any guy can get there hands on gun powder

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Pain Is Weakness Leaving The Body

Posted By: a_sock
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 3:10pm

people complaining about range are those who are afraid to get closer to the action. I have absolutly no problems with paintball range when im running full speed 5 ft past another guy(even if im using the phantom).
i think id bunker people anyways, because "snipers" arent as cool as the guys who go in guns a blazin anymore.

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its easy to be famous, just set yourself on fire

Posted By: paintballa43708
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:43pm

a_sock wrote:

people complaining about range are those who are afraid to get closer to the action. I have absolutly no problems with paintball range when im running full speed 5 ft past another guy(even if im using the phantom).?? ?i think id bunker people anyways, because "snipers" arent as cool as the guys who go in guns a blazin anymore.

you got that right

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Pain Is Weakness Leaving The Body

Posted By: paintballa43708
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:44pm

a_sock wrote:

people complaining about range are those who are afraid to get closer to the action. I have absolutly no problems with paintball range when im running full speed 5 ft past another guy(even if im using the phantom).?? ?i think id bunker people anyways, because "snipers" arent as cool as the guys who go in guns a blazin anymore.

you got that right

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Pain Is Weakness Leaving The Body

Posted By: chopstic
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 3:23am

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but i would be interested to know if anyone has done a study/comparison on the weights of different brand paintballs. The paintball's weight could prove a great advantage in range if the difference in weight is significant enough. For example.... if you shot two different brands of paintball at the same velocity, one of which was 25% heavier than the other. the heavier paintball would have a noticeable advantage in range. Has anyone compared these values before?

Posted By: techietaichi
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 9:32am

If I can remember right, I've come across something like that on the web before. I think it was at some great length though, so I blew it off. Haven't seen any kind of studies like that here though.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCZWhJCF6Ig">

Posted By: Ben Dover II
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 4:16pm

They have already solved the distance problem a while ago, just take a look at http://www.specialopspaintball.com/shop/category.asp?CAT=106210 - this.

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Posted By: The Guy
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 4:19pm

No Spec Ops links.

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http://www.anomationanodizing.com - My Site

Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 9:51pm

I think Apex or Flatline. A reliable resource told me that the Undetow bolt worked as well.