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Global warming wreaking havoc

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Topic: Global warming wreaking havoc
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Subject: Global warming wreaking havoc
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 3:49pm

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95MFC400&show_article=1 - http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95MFC400&show_a rticle=1

 

So if its hot, it because of global warming, and if its cold... Global warming.

I blame it all on Al Gore the inventor of the internet.

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/01/13/gutfeld_goggle/ - http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/01/13/gutfeld_goggle/

Stop those carbon filled google searches guys...



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They tremble at my name...



Replies:
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 4:16pm
I've said it 100 times, I'll say it again: Global warming is a misnomer. A correct term would be climate change, as it's not always warm. Why people discount reality because of a name is beyond me.


Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 4:18pm
Global warming is actually sort of a misnomer. I always understood that although the average world temperature is increasing, it is an oversimplification of world weather patterns to say that it will warm up everywhere. I didn't read your link, but I hate it when it's really cold and people say "LOL SO MUCH FOR GLOBAL WARMING" as if it can never be cold again.

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irc.esper.net
#paintball


Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 4:19pm
dammit choop.

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irc.esper.net
#paintball


Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 4:25pm
People are still making that joke?


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

People are still making that joke?

Sadly it seems that way.
*edit*
Also I clicked the link, and its a load of lie filled crap:
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/12/revealed-the-times-made-up-that-stuff-about-google-and-the-tea-kettles/ - http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/12/revealed-the-times-made -up-that-stuff-about-google-and-the-tea-kettles/


Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 4:42pm
I am surprised FreeE. uses the internet since it is so full of sin.

Why live in a secluded compound when you can invite sin into your house with a few clicks of the mouse?

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Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 5:29pm
That's too much copypasta for one day.

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Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 5:32pm
Your noob paintball posts are more entertaining.

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Posted By: adrenalinejunky
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 2:17am
actually, we havent had global warming for about a decade, since 1998, 2005 was pretty warm too, but with the exception of that year, global temperatures have actually been going down.


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 2:33am
Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

actually, we havent had global warming for about a decade, since 1998, 2005 was pretty warm too, but with the exception of that year, global temperatures have actually been going down.




Posted By: adrenalinejunky
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 2:47am
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

actually, we havent had global warming for about a decade, since 1998, 2005 was pretty warm too, but with the exception of that year, global temperatures have actually been going down.




you want references?


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 2:56am
Read what benji and I said.


Posted By: adrenalinejunky
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 3:03am
i read it.

i dont recall drawing any conclusions on from the info, and just because global warming/cooling may be used entirely out of context sometimes, does not mean it isnt a real issue with its own considerations when properly understood.

merely remarking on the fact that the globe hasnt been getting warmer, lately, its been getting cooler. since when is pointing to a fact face palm worthy?



Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 3:05am
Wow.


Posted By: adrenalinejunky
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 3:17am
?

would you prefer i say it as "the current global climate change is on a cooling trend"

like thats not the exact same thing.


Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 3:39am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95MFC400&show_article=1 - http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95MFC400&show_a rticle=1

 

So if its hot, it because of global warming, and if its cold... Global warming.

I blame it all on Al Gore the inventor of the internet.

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/01/13/gutfeld_goggle/ - http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/01/13/gutfeld_goggle/

Stop those carbon filled google searches guys...


Please stop posting.


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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 8:19am
I sense a massive amount of "If your sense of humor isn't in line with mine, you aren't as good as me" in this thread.




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Posted By: NiQ-Toto
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

I sense a massive amount of "If your sense of humor isn't in line with mine, you aren't as good as me" in this thread.
Well... Its true. So get in line.

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///AMG What?


Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

I sense a massive amount of "If your sense of humor isn't in line with mine, you aren't as good as me" in this thread.


You act as if it's confined to just this thread

Anyway, hasn't it been proven (or at least strongly supported) that we're just in a different part of the earth's climate change cycle and our actions likely had no great effect on the temperature changes? I remember seeing some people on Glenn Beck or something a while ago talking about all the evidence supporting that idea rather than the whole global warming thing. In any case, it seems like things are changing regardless of what we do and there isn't much we can do about it so I don't see why everybody makes such a big deal about it. Buy a nice jacket/air conditioner (depending on which way it shifts) and man up.


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oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland

Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey

Me: But only if they're hungary

Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth


Posted By: gh0st
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Wow.


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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 15 January 2009 at 8:48am
What I get a chuckle out of, is NOW 'Global Warming' is a misnomer and should be 'Climate Change'

In my own lifetime I can remember the adamant swearing that the ice caps were melting, the coasts were going to be flooded, and the polar bears were going to have nowhere to live, and the average temperature of the planet was going to skyrocket drastically within the next few decades. It was a vehement backing of 'warming'

Now, it seems to be a pretty epic backtrack.

"Yeah, uh, did we say warming? We meant change. Climate change. In fact, we never SAID warming. You nay-sayers in the right wing conspiracy hear what you want to hear."

At first it was "Global Warming"

Then, after a few years, the concept was changed to grudgingly accept the fact that "Global Warming is part of a cyclic overall change that HAS happened, is happening, and WILL happen" Except now, My driving an SUV is accelerating the process of warming- It had to or you had no argument anymore. 

NOW, it's even better- the entire 'warming' thing has been dropped, and it's 'climate change' and I'm STILL to blame.

Make up your mind hippies.












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Posted By: adrenalinejunky
Date Posted: 15 January 2009 at 8:56am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

What I get a chuckle out of, is NOW 'Global Warming' is a misnomer and should be 'Climate Change' In my own lifetime I can remember the adamant swearing that the ice caps were melting, the coasts were going to be flooded, and the polar bears were going to have nowhere to live, and the average temperature of the planet was going to skyrocket drastically within the next few decades. It was a vehement backing of 'warming' Now, it seems to be a pretty epic backtrack. "Yeah, uh, did we say warming? We meant change. Climate change. In fact, we never SAID warming. You nay-sayers in the right wing conspiracy hear what you want to hear."At first it was "Global Warming" Then, after a few years, the concept was changed to grudgingly accept the fact that "Global Warming is part of a cyclic overall change that HAS happened, is happening, and WILL happen" Except now, My driving an SUV is accelerating the process of warming- It had to or you had no argument anymore.  NOW, it's even better- the entire 'warming' thing has been dropped, and it's 'climate change' and I'm STILL to blame. Make up your mind hippies.


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 15 January 2009 at 9:03am

Well...  Not entirely accurate, Reb.

"Global warming" IS accurate.  The switch to "climate change" is a PR move to help people understand what is going on.

Since the beginning of the industrial revolution there has been a significant trend of atmospheric warming, when measured globally.  So GLOBALLY, there is warming.

This does not mean, however, that every place will get warmer.  Many places will get colder, and other climatological changes will occur as well, as a result of global warming.

A more complete term would be "wide-spread localized climate change brought on by anthropogenic warming on the global scale"

The mind was always made up about the science of the event.  The preferred term was changed in hopes of reducing confusion.



-------------
Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 15 January 2009 at 10:10am
This is a fun read:

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm - http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm


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Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 15 January 2009 at 10:18am

That's mean.  Linking to a really long article that I want to read.

Why do you hate my job?



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Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 15 January 2009 at 10:33am
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

That's mean.  Linking to a really long article that I want to read.

Why do you hate my job?



I hate it just as much as I hate mine....I'm still picking through it myself. I got about a quarter of a way through it and figured you'd get a kick out of it.




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Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 15 January 2009 at 10:35am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

People are still making that joke?
A guy made that joke to me last night when I helped load him up with sheetrock when it was -12 degrees.

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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 15 January 2009 at 10:39am
Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

People are still making that joke?
A guy made that joke to me last night when I helped load him up with sheetrock when it was -12 degrees.


Its a fun joke to make when there's nothing else to say.

You ought to know really well that 'the weather' has been a cliche conversation starter since man was able to form words in his mouth and spit them into the ears of his friends. The 'global warming' joke gives us an excuse to chuckle mindlessly at something that's not funny.



 


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Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 6:15am
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Well...  Not entirely accurate, Reb.

"Global warming" IS accurate.  The switch to "climate change" is a PR move to help people understand what is going on.

Since the beginning of the industrial revolution there has been a significant trend of atmospheric warming, when measured globally.  So GLOBALLY, there is warming.

This does not mean, however, that every place will get warmer.  Many places will get colder, and other climatological changes will occur as well, as a result of global warming.

A more complete term would be "wide-spread localized climate change brought on by anthropomorphic warming on the global scale"

The mind was always made up about the science of the event.  The preferred term was changed in hopes of reducing confusion.



It is not accurate. "Global Warming" was changed to "Climate Change" after Nasa's error in temperature recording data changed the hottest day on record from 2003 to 1936, after ice levels in the antarctic reached record levels, after the northern ice cap regained almost all of the ice which it had lost in recent years, and after record cold temperatures were recorded around the world.

Since "Global Warming" was no longer occurring, the name had to be changed.

When exactly did the industrial revolution begin? And when did temperature readings begin to be recorded? Both began at the end of the 19th century, not long after another "authentic" climate-changing event occurred.

In 1883 there was a massive volcanic eruption on the island of Krakatoa, near Sumatra, in south Asia. The entire island of Krakatoa was blown into the sky by the eruption. The sound of the explosion was heard thousands of miles away. Tens of thousands were killed by tsunamis, while thousands of others were buried in ash and rubble.

Huge amounts of ash and soil were thrown into the atmosphere, so much so that the climate was affected, and the world's temperatures decreased. The ash in the air caused red sunsets to occur on every continent, and it was said that it would take many years for the ash to settle back to the earth.

Funny that it was not long after this time (a handful of years) that we began to record temperatures, and, not surprisingly, they began to increase, peaking in the 1930's (not in the first decade of 2000).

Another interesting fact is that our recent cool weather seems to coincide with sunspot activity, activity which was noticeably absent during the last 2 decades (which were warmer).

And the last fact. Even scientists who support "Climate Change" theory have admitted that Co2 increases do not precipitate global warming, but in fact, seem to be a result of it.

The "Climate Change/Global Warming" nonsense we have been subjected to for the last several years is not and has not been an environmental issue, but a political one. It seems that the world has rejected socialism economically, so the new argument to push socialist ideology is environmental. The argument is that capitalism is destroying the world by causing global warming, and the only way to fix the problem is for the largest emitters (which coincidentally are America and other industrialized, capitalist nations) to either decrease emissions, or to pay for carbon credits (redistribution of wealth in disguise) for excess greenhouse gases produced.

Al Gore is laughing all the way to the bank. When he was told that his mansion was using as much electricity in one month as a normal American household uses in a year, he showed that he was paying for "carbon offsets". The company he paid the money to was called "Generation Investment Management", of which he happens to be a part-owner. This is the same company to whom "carbon offsets" were paid to by the Academy awards show a few years back.


Global Warming/Climate Change/Enviro-socialism, it's all the same




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For I will wander to and fro,
I'll go where I no one do know,


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 7:40am

I wish traveler would post more.

Its refreshing to see someone who doesn't feel the need to parrot all the bunk we are sold as "scientific fact".

 

When they are just trying to make a buck, off the back of free enterprise.



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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 10:02am
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/basicinfo.html - I guess the EPA is in on the conspiracy as well ...  Even under Bush.

-------------
Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 10:25am

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:


It is not accurate. "Global Warming" was changed to "Climate Change" after Nasa's error in temperature recording data changed the hottest day on record from 2003 to 1936, after ice levels in the antarctic reached record levels, after the northern ice cap regained almost all of the ice which it had lost in recent years, and after record cold temperatures were recorded around the world.

Since "Global Warming" was no longer occurring, the name had to be changed.

Please do cite a source for the centralized decision to change the "official" terminology...

As for the NASA recalculations, that has been addressed again and again.  Long-term trend analysis is not thrown off by a single changed outlier data point.  Regression analysis is smarter than that.  One of many articles discussing this here:  http://www.free-the-memes.net/writings/warming2/hottest_year.html - http://www.free-the-memes.net/writings/warming2/hottest_year .html

Quote
In 1883 there was a massive volcanic eruption on the island of Krakatoa, near Sumatra, in south Asia.

...

Funny that it was not long after this time (a handful of years) that we began to record temperatures, and, not surprisingly, they began to increase, peaking in the 1930's (not in the first decade of 2000).

The effect of a big event like Krakatoa is very complex.  My understanding is that the post-Krakatoa atmospheric temperatures returned to normal within "a handful of years."  No massively incorrect baseline was created.  Besides, it is not as if warming calculations are simply comparing 2008 to 1883.

If anything, there is evidence that the more long-term effect of Krakatoa is oceanic cooling, which helps reduce the effects of atmospheric warming, as described in this article in Nature: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7077/full/439675a.html - http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7077/full/439675a .html

Quote Another interesting fact is that our recent cool weather seems to coincide with sunspot activity, activity which was noticeably absent during the last 2 decades (which were warmer).

Sunspots are certainly worth studying, but this relationship has been vastly oversold, and has also been address many times.  Once such discussion here:  http://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm - http://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-glob al-warming.htm

Quote And the last fact. Even scientists who support "Climate Change" theory have admitted that Co2 increases do not precipitate global warming, but in fact, seem to be a result of it.

More info required here.  I am sure some scientists have changed their minds on various things - they do that.  I am not aware that "scientists" as a group agree with your statement.

Quote The "Climate Change/Global Warming" nonsense we have been subjected to for the last several years is not and has not been an environmental issue, but a political one. It seems that the world has rejected socialism economically, so the new argument to push socialist ideology is environmental. The argument is that capitalism is destroying the world by causing global warming, and the only way to fix the problem is for the largest emitters (which coincidentally are America and other industrialized, capitalist nations) to either decrease emissions, or to pay for carbon credits (redistribution of wealth in disguise) for excess greenhouse gases produced.

...

Global Warming/Climate Change/Enviro-socialism, it's all the same

As a hardcore capitalist working in the United States, I can assure you that this is not the case.



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Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 12:28pm
Hey Bruce, what do you think about the first comment posted in the comments in your link? I'm not gonna lie, I have no idea what that guy is talking about but it sounds good, haha. Any input on that? He provides a link to http://biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_is_Actually_Increasing.html#anchor_15%20 - here .

There's a somewhat interesting conversation going on in those comments as well, between people that at least seem to be far more knowledgeable than most of us.

Although I think the threat of global warming is overstated and that we have nothing to worry about, this all reminds me of something I saw on (I think) the discovery channel years ago. It said that basically, the reason CO2 gas emission is a problem is because of the greenhouse effect and that if we continue to crank out CO2 at this rate, then we'll end up like Venus which has a tremendous amount of CO2 gas in the atmosphere, contributing greatly to it's hot climate (obviously, in addition to it's proximity to the sun). Everybody has heard about the greenhouse effect already but honestly, I think people are just freaking out over nothing as usual. Politicians love it because they can get votes by "going green" (I hate that phrase) with their policies, companies can sell crap by making them "green", and the media can come up with more stories about previously (and arguably still) uninteresting stuff. I don't know if it's a big conspiracy like some people believe but I definitely support the idea that it's just another load of crap perpetuated to line peoples' pockets with cash. Heh, I'm almost tempted to believe that's capitalism at it's finest rather than socialism.


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oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland

Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey

Me: But only if they're hungary

Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 12:56pm

My view on this, as on most things scientific, is fairly simple:  I am not a scientist.  I have not read the majority of work in any field.

As a result, I am forced to form an opinion based primarily upon the credibility of the source.  Most of the time, that is fairly simple:  You go with the consensus.  If 99% of scientists in a field agree on something, chances are pretty good that they are right.  The consensus does get proven wrong occasionally, of course, but then a new consensus will form.

If there is no clear consensus, then it is trickier, and I usually stay out of it with a simple "I don't know."

Determining whether there is a true consensus is usually straightforward, as with evolution, but sometimes a little tricky, as with global warming.  The problem is that the field is relatively young, and very politically loaded.  (Evolution is also politically loaded, but has had time to overcome that hurdle.)

In this situation I have to look to the credibility of the sources.  Here also this is difficult with global warming.  The flat-earth people, for instance, are all obviously tinfoilers.  Not so with global warming skeptics.  Unfortunately, due to the polical charge, it is hard to separate good from bad.

But, so far, I have found two things (my anecdotal observations only):  First, the high-profile skeptics are more likely to be directly affiliated with political extremists or clear economic interests than the supporters.  Certainly not universal, but I think I am seeing a trend.

Secondly, and far more damning, the skeptics - even the educated ones that should know better - continue to circulate outright lies and falsehoods, no matter how many times they are shown to be false.  A good example is the "volcanos generate more CO2 than humans" bit.  This is completely false (and easily demonstrably false), yet it shows up again and again, not just in blog posts but in actual "articles" on the subject.

This is evidence of either intentional blindness or intentional malfeasance.  Either way, it reduces the source's credibility to zero.

This happens on all sides to every debate to some extent, of course, but at least as to claims I can verify, this happens a LOT more on the skeptic side than on the supporter side.  This tends to skew my opinion as well.

Further, there is simply the matter of cost/benefit analysis.  The Economist, a publication I obviously respect, did a special on global a couple of years back.  They were not entirely convinced by the science, but they made the straight-forward point that we should obviously act as if anthropogenic global warming is true, because there is little cost to taking action, but vast costs if we do nothing and are wrong.

Lastly, just on an intuitive level, my knowledge of systems tells me that change leads to change, and big change leads to big change.  The vast expansion of humans over the last few years, combined with the vast change in technology, strikes me as very unlikely NOT to leads to large-scale changes.

We have already determined beyond any doubt that most everything else we emit from our various machines causes environmental changes - why should CO2 be any different?



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Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 1:54pm
I support going green regardless of whether or not it will have any effect on the temperature.  Worst case scenario, the air quality increases and we see fewer cases of respiratory disease.  


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 2:01pm

Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

I support going green regardless of whether or not it will have any effect on the temperature.  Worst case scenario, the air quality increases and we see fewer cases of respiratory disease.  

That's kind of where I come down as well.  Countless times in the past environmentalists have pushed through legal/cultural changes, and the results have been very noticably for the better.  And in each case there has been violent objection relating to cost, and how it isn't necessary.

Does anybody really think it is a good idea to remove catalytic converters from cars?

Besides, I am all about sustainability.  Fossil fuels are bound to run out eventually.  Why not go ahead and establish a society that can operate indefinitely?



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Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 2:16pm
Holy crap, back home in whitehorse it has gone from -40ºC (-40ºF) at christmas to now +2ºC (35.6ºF)


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

 Countless times in the past environmentalists have pushed through legal/cultural changes, and the results have been very noticably for the better.  And in each case there has been violent objection relating to cost, and how it isn't necessary.

Yuppers, like drilling for oil in Alaska, I'm glad we are saving ANWR from those pesky oil drilling stations. I'm glad we don't get to buy American oil, every other day when I fill my tank...

 

Much better to let other countries profit from our oil consumption.

Don't get me wrong. I love green. Just the kind you fold and put in your pocket with dead presidents on it...



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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 2:53pm

What does ANWR have to do with anything at all?

You might as well have posted a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head.



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Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: adrenalinejunky
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

What does ANWR have to do with anything at all?


You might as well have posted a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head.



haha, havent seen that in forever...

to be clear - i fully support the vast majority of green technologies, for a vast array of reasons.

but i'm not sold on the whole global warming thing.


Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 3:03pm
FE really seems to love throwing out tangential topics as if they actually relate to the current discussion.

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irc.esper.net
#paintball


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 3:04pm

Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

to be clear - i fully support the vast majority of green technologies, for a vast array of reasons.

but i'm not sold on the whole global warming thing.

And that strikes me as a perfectly reasonable place to be.  "Green" (annoying as that term is) makes sense for a whole bunch of reasons, including the Benjamin kind of green. 

And the global warming picture is muddled, at least in public.  My main problem are the outright lies spewed forth.  The science is confusing enough; no need to make it worse.



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Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 3:10pm
i say let them have their oil profits.  Its just going to ruin them in the long run.  Their production sectors are extremely lacking because they can just import what they need with their oil money.  once that runs out, they're gonna be screwed.


Posted By: adrenalinejunky
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 3:15pm
personally, i think the sheer amount of oil we are still using is absurd - sure other technologies may come at a slightly higher initial cost - but that money will be creating jobs instead of sending money overseas, which is bound to help the economy (good for everyone). and once the initial spending is out of the way, many of the alternatives will greatly reduce costs (again, good for everyone...)


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 3:21pm

And much of the issue isn't even about upfront cost, but just savings out of the box.

Obama's tire gauge WILL save you money immediately, if you spend a quarter on air every time you fill up gas.

Turning off the lights when you leave the room WILL save you money immediately.  Not cranking the air/furnace WILL save you money immediately.

And all of those will also keep our money here instead of sending it to the Middle East, and will do so immediately.

The power of conservation was demonstrated last year simply by Americans driving less.

Frankly, I am surprised at the opposition to this idea.  Waste and excess are not conservative family values.



-------------
Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: adrenalinejunky
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 3:27pm
true as that may be, most americans i know are lazy and do not like being inconvinienced.


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

FE really seems to love throwing out tangential topics as if they actually relate to the current discussion.


Exactly what I was going to say. It makes him feel smart because he thinks it's somehow related.

LOOK MA, I'M CONTRIBUTING!

also benji you and I have been eye to eye in nearly every thread for the past month, its eerie.


Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 21 January 2009 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:


It is not accurate. "Global Warming" was changed to "Climate Change" after Nasa's error in temperature recording data changed the hottest day on record from 2003 to 1936, after ice levels in the antarctic reached record levels, after the northern ice cap regained almost all of the ice which it had lost in recent years, and after record cold temperatures were recorded around the world.

Since "Global Warming" was no longer occurring, the name had to be changed.

Please do cite a source for the centralized decision to change the "official" terminology...

As for the NASA recalculations, that has been addressed again and again.  Long-term trend analysis is not thrown off by a single changed outlier data point.  Regression analysis is smarter than that.  One of many articles discussing this here:  http://www.free-the-memes.net/writings/warming2/hottest_year.html - http://www.free-the-memes.net/writings/warming2/hottest_year .html

Quote
In 1883 there was a massive volcanic eruption on the island of Krakatoa, near Sumatra, in south Asia.

...

Funny that it was not long after this time (a handful of years) that we began to record temperatures, and, not surprisingly, they began to increase, peaking in the 1930's (not in the first decade of 2000).

The effect of a big event like Krakatoa is very complex.  My understanding is that the post-Krakatoa atmospheric temperatures returned to normal within "a handful of years."  No massively incorrect baseline was created.  Besides, it is not as if warming calculations are simply comparing 2008 to 1883.

If anything, there is evidence that the more long-term effect of Krakatoa is oceanic cooling, which helps reduce the effects of atmospheric warming, as described in this article in Nature: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7077/full/439675a.html - http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7077/full/439675a .html

Quote Another interesting fact is that our recent cool weather seems to coincide with sunspot activity, activity which was noticeably absent during the last 2 decades (which were warmer).

Sunspots are certainly worth studying, but this relationship has been vastly oversold, and has also been address many times.  Once such discussion here:  http://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm - http://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-glob al-warming.htm

Quote And the last fact. Even scientists who support "Climate Change" theory have admitted that Co2 increases do not precipitate global warming, but in fact, seem to be a result of it.

More info required here.  I am sure some scientists have changed their minds on various things - they do that.  I am not aware that "scientists" as a group agree with your statement.

Quote The "Climate Change/Global Warming" nonsense we have been subjected to for the last several years is not and has not been an environmental issue, but a political one. It seems that the world has rejected socialism economically, so the new argument to push socialist ideology is environmental. The argument is that capitalism is destroying the world by causing global warming, and the only way to fix the problem is for the largest emitters (which coincidentally are America and other industrialized, capitalist nations) to either decrease emissions, or to pay for carbon credits (redistribution of wealth in disguise) for excess greenhouse gases produced.

...

Global Warming/Climate Change/Enviro-socialism, it's all the same

As a hardcore capitalist working in the United States, I can assure you that this is not the case.



Here is one of many citations, but this one is more interesting than most. http://www.tech-know.eu/uploads/Letter_UN_Sec_Gen_Ban_Ki-moon.pdf

Here is another, http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=3


-------------
For I will wander to and fro,
I'll go where I no one do know,


Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 22 January 2009 at 5:50am
Does anyone remember hearing about the "Oregon Petition"?

I remember hearing when the UN's IPCC published their findings on global warming, and how thousands of scientists contributed to the report. It was said that the global warming theory was supported by a consensus of the world's scientists, and that action had to be taken quickly.

Then I read the report myself and discovered that it was drafted and published by 51 scientists, far less than the thousands which were believed to be involved.

The IPCC report was heard around the world, promising doom if mankind did not change it's ways.

But what about the Oregon Petition? The Oregon Petition was signed by scientists who did not agree with the global warming theory. When it was completed, it listed the signatures of more than 30,000 scientist, including more than 9000 professors. Why has the public heard nothing about the Oregon Petition?

In 1993, Dr Will Harper testified before congress that scientific data did not support man-made global warming. Dr Harper was a professor of physics at Princeton University, and was the director of energy research for the US Department of Energy. We might have heard more from Dr. Harper, but as a result of his testimony, he was fired from his position in government by none other than Al Gore himself.

Global warming theory is not accepted by the majority of the world's scientists. Letters by dissenting scientists to IPCC directors and to the UN itself asking for clarification of "facts" have gone ignored. Apparently global warming is in fact an ideology, and not a science based on hard facts.

In the last decade, the world's average temperature has decreased by .75 degress celsius.

Here is an interesting read about Co2 and global warming. It was written by the world's foremost authority on the subject: http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles%202007/20_1-2_CO2_Scandal.pdf - http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles 2007/20_1-2_CO2_Scandal.pdf


-------------
For I will wander to and fro,
I'll go where I no one do know,


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 22 January 2009 at 3:57pm
I'm sensing just a tad bit of ignorance from the left wing. Just links to more left-wing pages that mean nothing. Name-calling and ignorance does not make the fact that the earth is cooling go away.


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 22 January 2009 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:


Here is one of many citations, but this one is more interesting than most. http://www.tech-know.eu/uploads/Letter_UN_Sec_Gen_Ban_Ki-moon.pdf

Here is another, http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=3
 
Those are indeed good examples - of why I mistrust the skeptics on this issue.
 
As I explained above, I do not pretend to understand the science here, and am forced in large part to go by credibility.  And far too often, the climate change skeptics end up being funded by oil companies, or being just looniebins.  It is hard to find many qualified, non-loony, non-political skeptics.  The IPCC supporters on the other hand, while they have political hacks and loonies as well, are by and large more mainstream with less stake in the game.
 
Friends of Science gets a bunch of money from oil companies.  I believe that has been fairly well documented for years.
 
The folks signing the letter in the first link are an odd collection of unqualified, loonie, and politically motivated.  An astrophysicist, and economist, a couple of chemists...  Piers Corbyn is a notorious nutball.  Vincent Gray is associated with oil money (not sure on that - would have to do some research to confirm).    And Svend Hendriksen, the "Nobel Peace Prize Winner"  - he doesn't show up on my list of peace prize winners, unless he is part of one of the groups that won it.  Not sure how a peace prize qualifies him anyway.  And so on.  There are names I didn't recognize on there, but when they couldn't even come up with a dozen qualified non-nutty signatories for their letter, that makes me wonder.
 
The supporters of climate change theory, on the other hand, are mostly non-nutty and frequently quite qualified.  They also publish lots of papers supporting their position in peer-reviewed scientific journals, which is a rarity for the skeptics. 
 
As to the IPCC reports - global warming science does not begin and end with the IPCC.  The IPCC is a fairly recent arrival on the scene.  That said, you appear to dismiss the IPCC report because it was written by "just" 51writers - by that I presume you mean the "Core Writing Team."  My response to that would be "of course" - in fact, I am suprised it was that many.  It is hard to write in large groups.  But the report is not just the IPCC writers sitting around thinking stuff - they conduct an extensive review of the literature and essentially consolidate the learning.  Outsiders are specifically invited to submit information for review, and everything is reviewed multiple times by outside experts.  The process for coming up with the reports is quite elaborate and involves large numbers of people.  It is described in some detail on the IPCC website.
 
Yes, there has been some controversy about the IPCC.  But that controversy is also frequently overblown.  There was the contributor who wrote a letter denouncing the report for blaming hurricanes on global warming.  The skeptics got all excited about that, and made it seem as if he was claiming global warming hoaxiness, but conveniently failed to mention that the contributor still fully and publicly supported the conclusions of the IPCC report - except on hurricanes.
 
Compare this to "The Great Global Warming Swindle," where many of the "contributors" publicly denounced the whole thing, saying that their words were fully out of context and that they did not support the conclusions made.
 
Then the Oregon Petition - you make it seem like this has been hidden away.   Hardly true, it is quite well known.  I believe we have discussed that here before as well.  That falls under the "unqualified" category.  A review of the (unverified) signatories shows that the "scientists" are mostly doctors, engineers, and folks in the field of "general science."  I guess I am qualified to sign by their standard.  Last time we discussed it somebody googled the petition - apparently there have been dozens of newpapers laughing at the ridiculous list of signatories.  You have inspired me to go look for myself again, now.
 
And, of course, the Oregon Petition is put out by OISM, a borderline nutball club.
 
And so forth.  And so on.  If it were just one loonie here and there, it would be one thing.  But again and again the people held up as the heroes of the skeptics turn out to be unqualified, nutballs, or both.


-------------
Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 22 January 2009 at 8:39pm
Your Nasa graph has one fatal flaw, it ends at the year 2000, which was 9 years ago. If you follow the graph from 2000 to 2008, the temperature decreases.

In  my second post, I added a link to a paper published by Dr Jaworowski, is there anything in his paper that you dispute?

Did you read my explanation of  how the islands in the pacific disappeared? Was I not correct?

The IPCC itself, in it's 2007 report, has reduced it's projections for future global warming, why? Could it be because their previous reports were, in fact, wrong?

Have you read the IPCC reports? Ihave. In the 1996 report, 2 lines were edited out of the report before it was published, they are as follows:

1, “None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute  the observed climate changes to increases in greenhouse gases.”

2, “No study to date has positively attributed all or part of the climate change to man–made causes”

And this was in 1996, when future projections for global warming were far more severe than they are now.






-------------
For I will wander to and fro,
I'll go where I no one do know,


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 22 January 2009 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Your Nasa graph has one fatal flaw, it ends at the year 2000, which was 9 years ago. If you follow the graph from 2000 to 2008, the temperature decreases.
 
My NASA graph?

Quote In  my second post, I added a link to a paper published by Dr Jaworowski, is there anything in his paper that you dispute?
 
I am not qualified to dispute anything in his paper.  Dr. Jaworowski also appears to be a qualified and non-nutty skeptic - but I haven't looked very hard.  A bunch more like him and you would have my attention.

Quote Did you read my explanation of  how the islands in the pacific disappeared? Was I not correct?
 
I am not qualified to determine whether you are correct. 

Quote The IPCC itself, in it's 2007 report, has reduced it's projections for future global warming, why? Could it be because their previous reports were, in fact, wrong?
 
Even the IPCC admits that all projections are uncertain.  I believe there is quite a bit of variance there.  But I seem to recall that the IPCC itself answers your question as to why the projections were changed.

Quote Have you read the IPCC reports?
 
Yes.
 
Quote In the 1996 report, 2 lines were edited out of the report before it was published, they are as follows:

1, “None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute  the observed climate changes to increases in greenhouse gases.”

2, “No study to date has positively attributed all or part of the climate change to man–made causes”

 
Two questions:
 
1.  Where did you get a hold of an unpublished draft of a 13-year-old document?  I would like to read this draft.
 
2.  What is your conclusion from these deletions?  You appear to be implying something sinister, but show no evidence other than editing.  I can think of numerous reasons why language is inserted or removed, most of them perfectly innocent.  Taking an edit out of context and extrapolating some sinister motivation is, well, not very scientific.
 
Besides, as I mentioned above, global warming does not begin or end with the IPCC reports.  The IPCC does not itself conduct scientific examinations, but merely summarizes and synthesizes. 


-------------
Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 22 January 2009 at 10:35pm
Regarding the changes to the 1996 IPCC report,

  mailto:bsanter@rainbow.llnl.gov -

LETTER TO IPCC (WORKING GROUP I) SCIENTISTS

From: S. Fred Singer

This letter is addressed to scientific colleagues, primarily those on the IPCC list used by Benjamin Santer in his various e-mail letters to me. I have received many letters from others, and this is an efficient way to reply, given my limited time. Following the dictum omnia est divisa in partes tres, I shall report what I have learned about the changes to Chapter 8, then discuss different interpretations of the IPCC Summary's key conclusion, and finally present some policy implications.

In brief, I believe that:

  1. Chapter 8 was altered substantially in order to make it conform to the Summary;
  2. Three key clauses-- expressing the consensus of authors, contributors, and reviewers-- should have been placed into the Summary instead of being deleted from the approved draft chapter;
  3. The ambiguous phrase "the balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate" has been (mis)interpreted by policymakers to mean that a major global warming catastrophe will soon be upon us;
  4. The IPCC report and its authors are being (mis)used by politicians and others to push an ideologically based agenda.

I. Alterations to Chapter 8

Responsibility for Changes

I have now learned that convening lead author Ben Santer was instructed (prevailed upon?) by IPCC WG-I co-chairman John Houghton to make changes to Chapter 8 following the Madrid meeting. Santer should therefore not be accused of having committed these actions independently, even though he himself has always claimed personal responsibility for the alterations. In reviewing all of my written statements, whether public or private, I do not find any "attack" on Santer; I will say, however, that he has not been forthcoming with the necessary information. We have just now learned from Tom Wigley that he was also involved in making these changes. We may assume that the other two lead authors (Barnett and Anyamba) were simply informed of the changes at some later date but did not raise substantial objections.

This scenario--clearing Santer of responsibility--is in accord with a report in Nature (June 13), which places the responsibility on "IPCC officials." Moreover, I have now obtained a copy of the November 15 letter from the U.S. Department of State to Sir John Houghton, signed by Day Mount (Deputy Assistant Secretary, Acting). It states, inter alia, that "it is essential that chapters not be finalized prior to the completion of discussions at the IPCC WG-I plenary in Madrid, and that chapter authors be prevailed upon to modify their text in an appropriate manner following discussion in Madrid."

I don't know if other chapters of the IPCC WG-I draft report were modified in the same manner as was Chapter 8.

Purpose of Changes

The Nature article quotes the same unnamed IPCC officials as claiming "that the sole reason for the revisions was to tidy up the text, and in particular to ensure that it conformed to a 'policymakers' summary' of the full report that was tortuously agreed by government delegates at the Madrid meeting." The State Department letter confirms this interpretation and contradicts other reasons cited for the changes (for example, by the story in the June 21 issue of Science).

Why did the IPCC make the effort to "conform" the Chapter to the Summary for Policymakers (SPM), when most people would only read the SPM? My guess is: Since the publication of its first assessment report in 1990, the IPCC has been quite sensitive to charges, easily demonstrated by textual comparison, that the SPM did not reflect the underlying scientific report (1).

Were the Changes Substantial?

When I was first apprised of the existence of alterations to Chapter 8 in a mailing from the Global Climate Coalition in May 1996 (2), my reaction was that of surprise. I had attended both the Madrid and Rome meetings and recalled no discussion or announcement of such changes. But after personally comparing the "final draft" (of October 9, 1995) and the printed version (May 1996), I had to conclude that the changes were indeed substantial.

I realize that judgments can differ (3). It would, therefore, be best to have this matter settled by independent reviewers. It may, however, be helpful to quote three key phrases that were deleted from the final draft of Chapter 8:

  • "None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed [climate] changes to the specific cause of increases in greenhouse gases."
  • "No study to date has positively attributed all or part [of the climate change observed to date] to anthropogenic [man- made] causes."
  • "Any claims of positive detection of significant climate change are likely to remain controversial until uncertainties in the total natural variability of the climate system are reduced."

As the Nature article remarks, "...some phrases that might have been (mis)interpreted as undermining these [IPCC] conclusions ... have disappeared."

In my view, these three phrases, which were subscribed to by the four lead authors, 31 contributors, and numerous reviewers of Chapter 8, should not have been deleted from the IPCC report. **They should have been placed in the Summary for Policymakers.**

Legality of Changes

It is a matter of dispute--but of great importance--whether the text revisions, Houghton's instructions to Santer, or the State Department letter, were in accord with IPCC procedures. I have no fixed opinion and will leave the resolution of this dispute to others, including legal experts.

A separate question is whether IPCC procedures on matters such as peer-review are in accord with accepted scientific standards. For example, a conscientious journal editor would not choose an author's colleague as a referee. The Nature article points out that "the integrity of the reviewing and approval process is ... an essential element in assuring the credibility of the resulting conclusions." The IPCC assigned the role of convening lead author to Ben Santer, who then based much of the conclusion of Chapter 8 on two of his own papers that had not yet appeared in peer-reviewed journals (4). (The comment deadline on Chapter 8 was July 1995; one paper appeared in Climate Dynamics in December 1995, his other paper in Nature in July 1996). Eight of his co-authors are also listed as Chapter 8 contributors. I don't think that one can fairly expect them to be critical of their own work. And indeed, I have seen several scientific notes being submitted for publication, critiquing the two Santer articles, now that these have been published in widely available journals.


II. The Meaning of the IPCC Conclusion: "The balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate."

There is nothing in the SPM to support or validate the climate models that predict a substantial future warming (5). On the contrary, the estimates of IPCC 1995 are substantially less than those of 1992 or 1990. No mention is made in the SPM of the existence of weather satellite data that show absolutely no warming over the last 18 years. Instead, reliance is placed on an ambiguous phrase: "The balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate."

This contrived wording conveys different meanings to different audiences; scientists read it in one way, policymakers in quite another way:

Scientists will accept this phrase and just shrug their shoulders (6). We have known for years now that human activities can affect not only local, but also regional and even global climate. Here are just two examples that are presumed to show an effect of human- induced radiative forcing:

  • During the past five decades, there has been a downward trend in the frequency of intense hurricanes, -0.32 intense hurricanes/year per decade, significant at the 2% level. In addition, the mean maximum intensity of hurricanes has been decreasing over the same 50-year period (reference: Landsea et al., Geophysical Research Letters, 23, pp. 1697-1700, 15 June 1996).
  • A number of scientific papers have pointed to a statistically significant decrease in diurnal range of temperature over the past decades. This evidence is cited in the recent IPCC report (pp. 144-146).

**Please note:** The existence of such presumed human influences does not by itself validate the climate models. In particular, it cannot be used to claim a substantial temperature rise in the next century--**nor does the IPCC SPM make such a claim.** The likely reason: IPCC scientists would never agree to this. What the SPM does is to report the outcome of climate model calculations. It then implies that the "human influences" somehow validate these models. They do not.

**A key scientific issue:** Can one derive reasonable estimates of the climate sensitivity (defined as the temperature change for a doubling of effective CO2 concentration) from currently available pattern-based analyses? For example, can Northern/Southern hemisphere temperature differences, or the observed stratospheric cooling trend, be used to set numerical limits on climate sensitivity and discriminate among models whose results differ by 300 percent?

The conclusion drawn in Chapter 8 is that one obtains an increasing trend of pattern correlation, R(t), only through the addition of sulfate aerosols in the model calculations. But a straightforward comparison of Figures 8.10(a) and (b) leads to the finding that, if anything, it is the sulfate aerosols that may be causing the increasing trend shown for R(t). Hence, the correct interpretation would be that the anthropogenic greenhouse effect, and hence the climate sensitivity, is negligible.

No great weight should be attached to this conclusion, however, except that the analysis gives little information about the enhanced greenhouse effect. This fact is freely admitted in Section 8.4.2.3 (p. 434): "To date, pattern-based studies have not been able to quantify the magnitude of a greenhouse gas or aerosol effect on climate."

While the IPCC phrase does not in any way confirm a future warming, it does convey such an **impression** to policymakers; indeed, since we do not find any specific disclaimer in the SPM, I suspect that this was the purpose. And judging from the statements by government officials at the Geneva climate meetings in July 1996, this purpose certainly has been accomplished. Acting in good faith, they have to believe that all of the climate disasters linked to a major global warming are likely to come true--unless emissions are drastically curtailed.


III. The IPCC Report is Used to Justify a Political Agenda

The IPCC report has recently been used to justify a policy switch-- from the present voluntary program, based on energy conservation and efficiency improvements, to legally binding (i.e. mandatory) emission targets and time-frames. It should be clearly recognized that mandatory controls mean either the imposition of rationing, or of energy taxes, and/or of mandatory efficiency standards that cannot be economically justified (otherwise they would have been done voluntarily).

The U.S. Government, at the July 1996 Geneva meetings, cited climate science as the reason for this policy shift. This may come as a surprise to IPCC scientists since, if anything, scientific support for mandatory targets is weaker now than it was four years ago when the Climate Treaty was signed. Yet the State Department briefing paper asserts: "The first and foremost reason for launching this new direction is the science." Undersecretary of State Timothy Wirth declared: "The science calls on us to take urgent action" (7). DOE assistant secretary, Dirk Forrister, refers to the science as "convincing and compelling." It is neither; the scientific evidence certainly does not support either statement; nor does the full IPCC report itself.

Some may applaud such a policy shift, but I would hope that scientists, in particularly climate scientists, would not go along with such schemes. We know full well that stabilization of atmospheric CO2 demands a 60 to 80 percent cut in emissions-- worldwide. Yet in a London press conference on June 5, releasing the IPCC report, Houghton called for such mandatory policies, clearly adding a political dimension to his scientific role as IPCC co-chairman. The British Secretary for the Environment, John Gummer, was not hesitant in spelling out a numerical target of over 50 percent, with an emissions cut of 5 to 10 percent by the year 2010 as a first step. He hasn't told the British public how this is to be accomplished.

All sorts of groups seem to favor mandatory control of energy consumption, without paying the slightest attention to the dire consequences this policy would have on lower-income families and on developing nations. I have now seen a June 17 letter in The Times (London) by John Houghton and assorted luminaries, including an ex- Archbishop. It refers to climate change as a "moral issue." It blames the industrialized countries for the problem, and expresses regret that no binding targets on emissions have as yet been adopted. It ends with:

"A change in attitude is required by both Government and individuals, and for this reason we welcome the current initiative of the World Council of Churches in launching a petition on climate change which calls upon the Government to adopt firm, clear policies and targets, and the public to accept the necessary consequences." (These consequences are not spelled out.)

The letter endorses the idea that such policies [i.e. cutting energy use by more than 50 percent] "can contribute powerfully to the material salvation of the planet from mankind's greed and indifference." Not one word about the alleged climate consequences of the enhanced greenhouse effect; no recital of the horrible disasters that are usually trotted out by Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth; just the moral benefits of less energy use. Is this what scientific research has led to?

Conclusions

As far as most politicians are concerned, the science is now settled. There is really no need for further research, and certainly not for any results that might cast doubt on the "scientific consensus." According to the Ministerial Declaration issued in Geneva on 18 July 1996, paragraph 4, the continuing work by the IPCC can now focus on "socio-economic and environmental impacts on developing countries." With the ambiguous IPCC conclusion at hand they can now say to climate scientists: "Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you very much. You've done your job. We don't need you anymore. You can now leave the room. We have more important work to do to figure out how to apportion emissions, a political job that we're perfectly qualified to do without your help."

I believe we have here a clear example of the misuse of science-- and of scientists. If you agree, or have some constructive comments, I would like to hear from you. You may even be interested in joining others in signing the attached Leipzig Declaration.

NOTES

1) See, e.g. The Greenhouse Debate Continued: An Analysis and Critique of the IPCC Climate Assessment, The Science and Environmental Policy Project (S.F. Singer, Ed). Published by ICS Press, San Francisco, Cal. (ISBN: 1-55815-233-4).

2) I am puzzled by statements that one should not accept the fact that changes were made in Chapter 8 because they were first uncovered by an industry-supported group. Does the identity of the messenger alter the facts of the message?

3) I am amazed that anyone insists that only climate scientists with peer-reviewed papers in this subspecialty, i.e. contributors to Chapter 8, can make such a judgment.

4) Chapter 8 ("Detection of Climate Change and Attribution of Causes") lists 19 references to either the (Dec 1995) Climate Dynamics paper (1995a), or the (July 1996) Nature paper (1995b) (sic). The Clim. Dyn. paper is also used as a reference in Chapter 5 ("Climate Models-Evaluation") and Chapter 6 ("Climate Models- Projections of Future Climate"). Note also the modification of Figure 10 of the Climate Dynamics paper when reproduced as Figure 8.10b in the IPCC report.

5) I keep getting e-mail from people who should know better, insisting that the large pre-1940 temperature increase is evidence for the validation of climate models.

6) Most people have difficulty in defining the meaning of this artful phrase; some skeptics call it a big "nothing-burger" that the IPCC came up with because they had nothing else to show. In any case, it is only the latest in a series of vague terms from IPCC summaries. In its 1990 report, the phrase that was supposed to validate climate models was: "broadly consistent"; it is no longer used.

7) Mr. Wirth hasn't always been so solicitous of science. In 1990, then-Senator Tim Wirth boldly asserted, "We've got to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic and environmental policy."

S. Fred Singer
The Science and Environmental Policy Project
1600 South Eads Street, Suite #712-S
Arlington, VA 22202-2907
Tel/Fax 703-920-2744

E-mail: singer@sepp.org
Web site: http://www.his.com/~sepp


-------------
For I will wander to and fro,
I'll go where I no one do know,


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 22 January 2009 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Regarding the changes to the 1996 IPCC report, here you go: http://www.sepp.org/Archive/controv/ipcccont/ipccflap.htm - http://www.sepp.org/Archive/controv/ipcccont/ipccflap.htm


 
Interesting read.  Where did you get your copy of the unpublished draft?


-------------
Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 23 January 2009 at 4:30am
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Regarding the changes to the 1996 IPCC report, here you go: http://www.sepp.org/Archive/controv/ipcccont/ipccflap.htm - http://www.sepp.org/Archive/controv/ipcccont/ipccflap.htm


 
Interesting read.  Where did you get your copy of the unpublished draft?


The unpublished draft came from Dr S Fred Singer, who was a lead author of the 1996 IPCC report on global warming, and the lead author of Chapter 8 of the same report.

 Coincidentally, he is also the author of the article you just read.








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For I will wander to and fro,
I'll go where I no one do know,


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 23 January 2009 at 11:52am
Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Where did you get your copy of the unpublished draft?


The unpublished draft came from Dr S Fred Singer, who was a lead author of the 1996 IPCC report on global warming, and the lead author of Chapter 8 of the same report.

 Coincidentally, he is also the author of the article you just read.
 
Ok.
 
First, I believe you just confirmed my suspicions - you have in fact NOT read the unpublished draft report, but are basing your views on this entirely on the musings of folk like Dr. Singer.  To me that is quite different from what you initially appeared to claim:  that you had personally inspected the draft and final reports, and identified unacceptable discrepancies.
 
The draft report is not generally available.  I have not been able to find a copy, and I have tried.
 
Second, reviewing the entire draft is very important, for many reasons.  One of those is context.  Again, Singer's letter implies a sinister conspiracy, that the final report reached a completely different conclusion than the draft report.  The named deletions alone do not support that claim - based on my experience editing reports, it is perfectly possible (and more logical) that the draft report had the same conclusion as the final report, and the edits were just that - edits.
 
It is also interesting to google the deleted phrases you mention.  I encourage everybody to try (remember to use quotes).  The results are a fascinating mix of the tinfoil-hat blog crowd, beating each other into a frenzy.  Again the credibility issue is raised.
 
Third, Dr. Singer was NOT the lead author of Chapter 8 or any portion of the 1996 IPCC report, or any other IPCC report for that matter.  He has never been associated with the IPCC.  The lead author of Chapter 8 of the 1996 report was Benjamin Santer.
 
I must admit to some dissembling on my part - I have read this letter before.  In fact, I remember it well.  The 1996 report was the first IPCC document I read, and I was also a regular reader of the Wall Street Journal at the time (I since had to give up the WSJ - it's like crack).  I recall seeing the letter you posted.  It was published in the WSJ op-ed section, addressed to Dr. Santer and other IPCC folk.
 
This sparked a good amount of furor, and there were several rebuttals published in the WSJ and elsewhere, from Dr. Santer and others.  Some of these many rebuttals are findable on the web, but basically the official story was as I described above - the draft report reached the same result as the final report.  If that were not the case, would you not expect some objections from the contributing scientists?  Instead, they all backed Dr. Santer's explanation.
 
Of course, Dr. Singer does not report any of the responses on his website.
 
Because, FOURTH - Dr. Singer, while an educated and intelligent man, is a notorious nutball.  Or at least a professional contrarian.  Global warming is one of his pet projects - the other two are CFCs and second-hand smoke.  He has recent publications arguing that CFCs do not affect the ozone layer, and that second-hand smoke is harmless.
 
This is also reflected in the awful rant of a letter that he somehow got the WSJ to publish.  That letter has been dissected before, by smarter men than me - but even a slightly critical read reveals how he is just feeding into fears based on vague innuendo and unsubstantiated claims.
 
tl;dr:  Dr. Singer = nutball.  The letter Traveler posted = old garbage.  As usual, there is a short dot-to-dot to get from skeptics to nutballs.


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Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan


Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 23 January 2009 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

FE really seems to love throwing out tangential topics as if they actually relate to the current discussion.


Exactly what I was going to say. It makes him feel smart because he thinks it's somehow related.

LOOK MA, I'M CONTRIBUTING!

also benji you and I have been eye to eye in nearly every thread for the past month, its eerie.
Sexy.

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irc.esper.net
#paintball


Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 23 January 2009 at 1:40pm
Butt buddies.

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Posted By: PAINT&STUFF
Date Posted: 23 January 2009 at 2:49pm
Al GORE can help, after he's done fighting [manbearpig]....


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 06 February 2009 at 2:30pm
Did you hear about that HUGE global warming event?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 06 February 2009 at 2:39pm
A bunch of tiny snowmen?
 
I can't possibly argue with that.


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Waste and excess are not conservative family values
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot
http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan



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