Wireless Question
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=180361
Printed Date: 28 February 2026 at 8:48am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Wireless Question
Posted By: Bunkered
Subject: Wireless Question
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 6:48am
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If someone has an unsecured wireless connection, is it illegal to use their connection to go online?
I'm just wondering since I've been using one of my neighbors' for quite a while now. You'd think they may have noticed. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 7:26am
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is stealing wrong?...
Nice morals. ------------- They tremble at my name... 
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 8:10am
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I didn't ask if it was wrong though did I?
I asked if it was illegal. n00b -------------
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 9:29am
So, what exactly is the difference? ------------- 
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Bunkered wrote:Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 9:34am
The difference between a crisp fuji and a juicy tangerine. |
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 9:38am
some consider abortions (just an example) wrong, but its still legal |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 9:48am
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So your neighbor paid for something, and you think it is OK to just take it from them without their permission? Why don't you run an extension cord and steal the power they are paying for too?
Or why don't you go over and take their food out of their pantry?
Or why don't you cut a hole in the wall of your apartment, and their apartment, and put in a fan to suck their heat/ac into your apartment?
Why don't you go suck out the gas out of their gas tank and put it in yours?
Or steal their paper, or mail, or deliveries?...
Have some character, and stop being a mooch.
Yes, it is illegal, but you probably wouldn't get in trouble for it. Although, anytime you enter a password, the person who owns the router could be watching what you do and getting all your info...
I guess if they used the password you entered to access your bank account, and then they took out your money, would you be upset? ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 9:48am
Fuji's are the best apples. I had a few other comments regarding "wrong" and "illegal," but I think FE got the point across quite effectively. -------------
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Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 10:22am
While your original point is valid and I agree that it's not right to steal internet access, I will say that there is a difference between leeching internet access and those other examples. Things like power, heat/ac, food, gas, etc. are all things that are paid based on how much is used while internet access (in nearly all locations) is something that you pay to make available rather than paying for how much you use. Basically, my point is that his neighbor will pay $X for internet access whether people are leeching off of it or not so it doesn't cost him anything extra. The only side affect would be potential slow-downs due to the increase in traffic over his connection but if nobody is running torrents or anything highly bandwidth intensive then he likely won't even notice. That said, it still isn't right to use his connection but that's not what was asked. In most cases I believe it is illegal to do that and it is especially bad if they had security setup and you bypassed it to get in. What I'd be more worried about is the second point FE made which is something that you should be very concerned about; security. I won't go into tremendous detail about how the technology works but basically, the internet is not a point-to-point system. You can send a message from point A destined for point B and nobody else will see it but that's only because they aren't listening. Everything you send from your computer is broadcast over many different networks until it finds its destination. So, everything you do while connected through his router is visible to anybody else on that router or the routers above it that are used to get your data to their destination. Normally, your computer sends data out that says "send me here" in a header and all devices that are not listed as the destination will either ignore it or forward it on. The type of program I mentioned will not simply ignore this data, it will let you look at it. So anything you send unencrypted over the internet will appear as plain text to anybody using one of those programs to monitor the traffic. I believe Ethereal and Wireshark are names of programs that can be used for that stuff. All he has to do is run something like that and every time you make an online purchase, check your bank account balance, etc. you'd be sending all of your information out for free. Since his network is unsecure, you can't be sure who else is on it and it only takes one evil prick to go on there and steal your information. The reason cyber-crime is such a big problem is because it's way too easy. I could sit outside your house with a laptop, steal your info, and drive off without you ever finding me  . And don't think that doesn't happen to people.If you want to protect yourself but still can't get yourself to stop mooching, at least offer to set some security up for him  . That way you at least protect both of you while you steal his bandwidth.------------- oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey Me: But only if they're hungary Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth |
Posted By: Bruce Banner
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 10:40am
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On the moral issue, making a direct parallel to stealing strikes me as incorrect, for the reason mod98 stated. Unless, of course, your usage is sufficient to reduce overall performance.
That said, many/most people would be a little miffed to learn that their neighbor was leeching internet without telling them. That, more than the "stealing" aspect, makes leeching immoral to me, or at the very least rude. My theory is that anything you are afraid/ashamed to admit in public should be scrutinized carefully for moral issues. (not to say that all secrets are immoral, but that you should wonder exactly why you want to keep it secret)
On the legal issue, I don't know. My suspicion is that the law doesn't know either. This is the type of thing that old laws don't contemplate. Some states may have new rules addressing this (particularly states with big cities), but I would be surprised if such laws were common.
That, of course, will not stop an overzealous local DA from squeezing this into some other form of theft/fraud. Hard to say.
Beyond criminal-ish laws, there is also the matter of civil suits. Your neighbor might have a claim for contribution at the least, to make you pay your share of the service. "Unjust enrichment" is a wonderfully vague legal concept that can be used in many cases, including this one.
------------- Waste and excess are not conservative family values http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/07opclassic.html - Nature is not a liberal plot http://pickensplan.com - A Good Energy Plan |
Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 1:59pm
Good thing I don't care if they get my Tippmann password. Other than that, I just read the news. -------------
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 2:14pm
wow, really mack? |
Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 2:22pm
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If they are too stupid to protect their wireless network, have at it. If they get tired of you leeching their internet connection they aren't going to call the cops, they will probably do some reading and put a key on it or enable the MAC filter. ------------- 
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 2:27pm
That's really how I felt about it. I just wanted to see if it was something I could be prosecuted for. I guess if they're not smart enough to at least put a password on their connection, they're probably not going to be able to figure out where the leech was coming from. Hopefully I'll be able to afford cable once my heating bill isn't so outrageous, but for now this works. Really though... What kind of nerd names their network "Stargate Command?" -------------
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 2:30pm
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Why don't you steal their cable tv too?
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 2:34pm
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You don't want to know the names I've seen on routers. Also, how densely populated is your neighborhood? They would have to prove you borrowed the connection before any agency took interest. But even then I don't see any law enforcement caring about ti unless you steal the guy's identity.
-------------
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 2:36pm
Because TV is lame, and a waste of time. My antenna provides me with the weather and morning news, and that's all I need. -------------
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 2:40pm
Fairly densely; it's an apartment complex. I'm assuming it comes from one of the people across the hall. If it's one guy, he wouldn't even care (we burn all the time). The other people that live around me I've never really seen, and I've been here since September. -------------
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Posted By: PaiNTbALLfReNzY
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 3:02pm
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Use it until they PW protect it.
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Posted By: Mehs
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 3:26pm
I will crack your WPA/WEP crap security with my 30 gigs of rainbow tables, and steal your encryption keys and hax your network beoch, then I will sniff your insecure packets and steal your bank account numbers, and then I will download kiddy porn. WHAT NOW! ------------- [IMG]http://i27.tinypic.com/1538fbc.jpg"> Squeeze Box ☣ |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 3:28pm
Really. My point is that if something is wrong, not being illegal does not make it any less wrong.
Dude. Sniffing other men's packets is just wrong* (secure or not**). *But probably not illegal. **Is that a boxers or briefs thing? -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 3:35pm
Obviously....He clearly came to terms with his devilish internet stealing behavior. The question was is it illegal or not though.... ------------- Que pasa? 
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 3:40pm
He asked the wrong question . . . . . . so I answered the one he should have asked. -------------
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Posted By: Mehs
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 3:43pm
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It is merely a question of computer ethics, and in this case, not ethical. ------------- [IMG]http://i27.tinypic.com/1538fbc.jpg"> Squeeze Box ☣ |
Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 3:46pm
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It's not illegal or unmoral.
------------- 
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 3:56pm
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In Michigan (where you live) it is illegal. 5 years in jail, and $10,000 fine.
.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/ip-telephony/?p=1640 - http://blogs.zdnet.com/ip-telephony/?p=1640
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Mehs
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 4:04pm
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You can really mess with them by spoofing a mac address of a near by access point, I'd like to see them track you then! I wonder how the police found the guy? ------------- [IMG]http://i27.tinypic.com/1538fbc.jpg"> Squeeze Box ☣ |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 4:19pm
| I say, as long as you dont have to hack your way in, go for it. In fact, if you can get the wifi from your own room, then you should sue them for creating air polution. |
Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 4:31pm
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Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 20 February 2009 at 12:06am
He's gonna use his rainbow tables on me too.....fairy. I'd better close all my ports before he floods them ------------- oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey Me: But only if they're hungary Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth |
Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 20 February 2009 at 1:23pm
Keep in mind, I only ask if it's legal so I know my risks. If I really cared about breaking laws, I probably wouldn't be smoking this joint right now, would I? -------------
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