cops took his gun, then he was robbed and killed..
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Topic: cops took his gun, then he was robbed and killed..
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Subject: cops took his gun, then he was robbed and killed..
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 8:09am
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Over the rhine is a very dangerous part of my community. Which I get to drive through at times, as I have customers in the area... (the riots a few years back were very interesting...)
But, this story is typical of what we hear on the news every night.
The shop owner Wade Nassar worked at his store all the time, as it was too hard to find employees that wouldn't steal him blind... So he ran it all himself, working most of the hours it was open.
Being that he was located in over the rhine (downtown cincy) he needed a gun to protect himself from the monthly robbery attempts.
Nov 2007 he was robbed and the thief took $400 from him, (two weeks profits). He ran after the thief and fired shots at him unloading his handgun.
The police were outraged that he would try and do their job for them, so they took his gun.
Last night, he was robbed again, and this time, he lost everything...
I used to remember a phrase... Don't know where it came from, but it used to mean something.
Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness.
RIP
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090303/NEWS0107/903030338 - http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090303/NEWS0107/903030338
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Replies:
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 9:05am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
He ran after the thief and fired shots at him unloading his handgun.
The police were outraged that he would try and do their job for them, so they took his gun. |
So, he didn't act like a responsible gun owner, and got his gun taken away? I highly doubt the motive of the police in confiscating the weapon the first time had less to do with them worried about job security and more worried about him chasing someone into the street, and then discharging it multiple times while in the open street.
It is extremely unfortunate what happened to him. It really is. But, this just isn't a gun-rights thing.
If this place is robbed that many times, the problem is socioeconomic.
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 9:23am
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Move. Also, the guy wasn't exactly a prince among men. Article states he was charged with illegally buying food stamp last year. Probably accepting them in trade for liquor or smokes would be my guess. Doesn't make it alright to pop a cap in his ass, but still he wasn't exactly on the road to sainthood.
RIP, you crazy old coot.
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Posted By: Gator Taco
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 9:38am
agentwhale007 wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
He ran after the thief and fired shots at him unloading his handgun.
The police were outraged that he would try and do their job for them, so they took his gun. |
So, he didn't act like a responsible gun owner, and got his gun taken away? I highly doubt the motive of the police in confiscating the weapon the first time had less to do with them worried about job security and more worried about him chasing someone into the street, and then discharging it multiple times while in the open street.
It is extremely unfortunate what happened to him. It really is. But, this just isn't a gun-rights thing.
If this place is robbed that many times, the problem is socioeconomic.
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Amen. While I'm all for the right to defend yourself and your property, emptying a hand gun at someone while chasing them down the street is NOT something I'd condone. Is $400 really worth the risk he was taking?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/trailgator01 - last.fm
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 9:43am
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How did I know this would be a free enterprise thread?
Nov 2007 he was robbed and the thief took $400 from him, (two weeks profits). He ran after the thief and fired shots at him unloading his handgun. The police were outraged that he would try and do their job for them, so they took his gun.
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Well... lets start with the fact that he shouldn't have shot at the guy as he ran away. You should never fire at someone unless they are a direct physical threat to yourself or someone else. Robbery is no reason to kill someone, especially when they are running away. I assume that you are a gun owner yourself, and thus, should know that.
------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs>
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 9:48am
Why do I get the feeling that nearly everyone who posts here saying "He shouldn't have shot at the guy" would have done exactly the same thing in the same situation.
I'm not saying it's right, in fact, I agree with you, he shouldn't have. But if you're faced with the threat of violence and 'Fight or flight' kicks in, and the means are there......I don't know how many of us would be able to say "Oh, the guy that just tried to harm me is leaving. All is well."
Now, EMPTYING the pistol is something else or course- a tad excessive.
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 9:51am
We should just ban all weapons from the public. Then crime would stop.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 9:54am
Reb Cpl wrote:
Why do I get the feeling that nearly everyone who posts here saying "He shouldn't have shot at the guy" would have done exactly the same thing in the same situation.
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He didn't even shoot the guy. He shot at him while running.
From the article:
In November 2007, $400 was taken from his store. Nassar grabbed his gun
and followed the thief out. He emptied the gun, shooting five shots and
missing. |
That's five stray bullets going into a presumably urban Cincinnati area.
I understand what you are saying, about you have to be there to understand it. I really do. But I also understand that if you do something like he did, the police are going to, and should, take your firearm away.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 9:59am
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I agree that he shouldn't have shot down the street, (but this was over the rhine, where gunshots down the street literally happen every day...)
It was wrong; fine him, send him to some gun training classes.
But, Don't take his means of protecting himself away...
I wonder if he had 17 shots instead of 5 and had hit and killed the armed robber, what would you think then?
Should cops be allowed to fire their weapons on the street?...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:02am
When you use your rights to infringe on the rights of others, you forfeit those rights.
Firing his gun wildly down a street could have hit and killed any number of people.
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:05am
F.E. standard police procedure in ALL police departments is to impound any weapon used in connection to a crime, be it the criminal's weapon or the weapon used in defense. They do this not to put the owner of the firearm at any disadvantage or as a form of punishment, but rather for evidence and forensics reasons. If he hadn't fired when the assailant had already fled the premises, then he'd have still had his gun. The fact of the matter is that he discharged a firearm on public property and the police had to follow procedure. Ohio is a pretty decent state when it comes to gun laws, so are you telling me that he was so concerned about his safety but didn't go purchase a shotgun from the local Dick's sporting goods after his handgun was taken away?
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:07am
Skillet42565 wrote:
When you use your rights to infringe on the rights of others, you forfeit those rights.
Firing his gun wildly down a street could have hit and killed any number of people.
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So now he is dead, because of thinking like this...
PS, the guy that killed him has multiple warrants alread out on him... But, the prison system is so overloaded that violent criminals are now roaming the streets looking for unarmed victims...
Everyone knew this guy wasn't armed anymore...
It was only a matter of time.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:10am
We all gotta die sometime. Quit your crying and move on.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:20am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
It was wrong; fine him, send him to some gun training classes. But, Don't take his means of protecting himself away... |
Reckless disregard for public safety while using a deadly weapon is not something we should be giving out fines for.
I wonder if he had 17 shots instead of 5 and had hit and killed the armed robber, what would you think then? |
The same thing I think now. You shouldn't be firing your gun in public while trying to chase someone down.
Should cops be allowed to fire their weapons on the street?... |
Allowed to? Yes, of course. They also: 1) Go through a quite extended time of training on how to do so properly. 2) Know when to do it, and when not to. I am going to bet, Dune can help me out here, that a suspect running away with $400 in stolen goods is not one of those times when discharging your weapon is permitted.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:23am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
So now he is dead, because of thinking like this...
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No, he is dead because someone shot him while robbing his store.
He has obviously been robbed before. We know this from the story. Now, I am not sure, but from what I can gather, previous robberies were done at gunpoint.
While bring robbed at gunpoint, he didn't brandish his firearm. He waited and then chased them out. Or did nothing, or whatever.
What was to keep any of the other people robbing him from shooting him where he stood? The gun under the counter they knew he wasn't going to reach for because he had a gun pointed at him?
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:29am
agentwhale007 wrote:
Reb Cpl wrote:
Why do I get the feeling that nearly everyone who posts here saying "He shouldn't have shot at the guy" would have done exactly the same thing in the same situation.
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He didn't even shoot the guy. He shot at him while running.
From the article:
In November 2007, $400 was taken from his store. Nassar grabbed his gun
and followed the thief out. He emptied the gun, shooting five shots and
missing. |
That's five stray bullets going into a presumably urban Cincinnati area.
I understand what you are saying, about you have to be there to understand it. I really do. But I also understand that if you do something like he did, the police are going to, and should, take your firearm away.
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I agree with you 100% Maybe my saying "We'd do exactly the same" is erroneous. Would the majority of us have done something SIMILAR? Quite possibly. I don't know as though we'd go tear assing through the streets of Cincinnati shooting at someone who tried to rob us, but a shot at the guy while you're still suffering a massive dose of adrenaline coupled with a dangerous cocktail of other emotions isn't too far outside the realms of reality for most people.
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:34am
Reb Cpl wrote:
agentwhale007 wrote:
Reb Cpl wrote:
Why do I get the feeling that nearly everyone who posts here saying "He shouldn't have shot at the guy" would have done exactly the same thing in the same situation.
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He didn't even shoot the guy. He shot at him while running.
From the article:
In November 2007, $400 was taken from his store. Nassar grabbed his gun and followed the thief out. He emptied the gun, shooting five shots and missing. |
That's five stray bullets going into a presumably urban Cincinnati area.
I understand what you are saying, about you have to be there to understand it. I really do. But I also understand that if you do something like he did, the police are going to, and should, take your firearm away.
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I agree with you 100% Maybe my saying "We'd do exactly the same" is erroneous. Would the majority of us have done something SIMILAR? Quite possibly. I don't know as though we'd go tear assing through the streets of Cincinnati shooting at someone who tried to rob us, but a shot at the guy while you're still suffering a massive dose of adrenaline coupled with a dangerous cocktail of other emotions isn't too far outside the realms of reality for most people.
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I think the majority of us, as would be indicative of the general population would have called 911 and than grabbed the mop to clean up the mess.
Here is todays update. They have a suspect and the cause of death was blunt force trauma. Sounds like if Nassar would have pulled a gun, he probaly would have just ended up getting pistol whipped with it.
http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20090304/NEWS0107/903040389/0/NEWS0103 - http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20090304/NEWS0107/903040389/0/NEWS0103
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:38am
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Actually, I could argue that he had a right to shoot at a retreating armed robber...
According to Ohio law.
You have an obligation to protect yourself and others if you are in fear for your life, or their life...
So if someone walks up to you and points a 45 in your face, and demands your money. In a downtown store, where there are bound to be others in the area... You give him your money and he runs away. That robber is still armed and dangerous. And everyone in the area is in danger of being killed by him, as he obviously has no regard for human life...
If you saw anyone in the path of the robber, you would be protected under the law if you shot and killed the robber if you were "in fear for their life". Or even if you were in fear for your own life, if the robber was swinging his gun in your direction while running away...
If an armed robber is running away, he can still discharge his firearm and kill you by shooting behind him...
So officially you would still be "in fear for your life". Standards that fit the current law in ohio...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:40am
Running down the street shooting means shooting without aiming properly. That's a huge gun safety violation.
Yes, many of us would have done the same; but that doesn't mean:
That response cannot be trained out of us. That it's still grounds for letting the guy get off scott free for doing something so reckless.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:45am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Actually, I could argue that he had a right to shoot at a retreating armed robber...
According to Ohio law.
You have an obligation to protect yourself and others if you are in fear for your life, or their life...
So if someone walks up to you and points a 45 in your face, and demands your money. In a downtown store, where there are bound to be others in the area... You give him your money and he runs away. That robber is still armed and dangerous. And everyone in the area is in danger of being killed by him, as he obviously has no regard for human life...
If you saw anyone in the path of the robber, you would be protected under the law if you shot and killed the robber if you were "in fear for their life". Or even if you were in fear for your own life, if the robber was swinging his gun in your direction while running away...
If an armed robber is running away, he can still discharge his firearm and kill you by shooting behind him...
So officially you would still be "in fear for your life". Standards that fit the current law in ohio... |
That's a wee bit of a stretch.
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:46am
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So a Question. If someone is convicted of shooting someone and sent to jail for it, upon his release, should he have the right to hold a gun in order to protect himself?
------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs>
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 10:51am
Tolgak wrote:
Running down the street shooting means shooting without aiming properly. That's a huge gun safety violation.
Yes, many of us would have done the same; but that doesn't mean:
That response cannot be trained out of us. That it's still grounds for letting the guy get off scott free for doing something so reckless.
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This is exactly what I'm driving at, you just said it better. Gut response might have been similar. Illegal and dangerous- but similar.
That response CAN be trained out of us, but in many cases of people who carry a firearm, that training might not be there. An extensive background in the 'rules of etiquette' of firearms possession, especially in public, sadly, isn't part of the prerequisites for owning a gun.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:02am
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I for one wouldn't be able to say he was "wildy" shooting randomly down the street.
I shoot alot. A revolver is not easy to shoot, trigger pull, plus stress equals misses from close range, much less more than 10 feet...
I couldn't call that "wildly" shooting... He was trying to kill the guy, he was just a bad shot...
I'd bet most of the people on here couldn't hit a man sized target with a large caliper revolver from 20 feet, much less 30 feet... Especially with a 2 inch barrel, and high levels of stress...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:04am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
He was trying to kill the guy, |
Which he shouldn't have been doing in the first place. It doesn't matter if he was spinning in an office chair, or perfectly planted like a championship target shooter, you shouldn't shoot in the public at someone who is running away with $400 in goods.
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:07am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I for one wouldn't be able to say he was "wildy" shooting randomly down the street.
I shoot alot. A revolver is not easy to shoot, trigger pull, plus stress equals misses from close range, much less more than 10 feet...
I couldn't call that "wildly" shooting... He was trying to kill the guy, he was just a bad shot...
I'd bet most of the people on here couldn't hit a man sized target with a large caliper revolver from 20 feet, much less 30 feet... Especially with a 2 inch barrel, and high levels of stress... |
Here's where we part paths. Firing 5 shots down a street while running IS 'wildly' shooting in my book. A calculated single shot from a standing position.....I MIGHT be singing a different tune.
I will admit too, that I'm one of those 'can't hit anything with a pistol' people. Give me a rifle, and if I can see it, I can hit it. Hand me a pistol, and i might as well throw it at you. 
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:10am
Reb Cpl wrote:
I will admit too, that I'm one of those 'can't hit anything with a pistol' people. Give me a rifle, and if I can see it, I can hit it. Hand me a pistol, and i might as well throw it at you. 
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You and I are opposite people on everything, it looks like.
I can make a nice grouping with my .38 Police Positive.
With a rifle, I could hit a target easier if I used it to smack a baseball at it.
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:12am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I for one wouldn't be able to say he was "wildy" shooting randomly down the street.
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No, but the newsaper article did:
CITED NEWSPAPER ARTICLE wrote:
Nassar is the same man who shot wildly at a thief running away from his store in November 2007. |
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:15am
agentwhale007 wrote:
You and I are opposite people on everything, it looks like.
It often seems that way, doesn't it?
With a rifle, I could hit a target easier if I used it to smack a baseball at it.
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haha awesome. The very first time I was handed a pistol to shoot, after three rounds I took the magazine out to check the rounds. I swore to high heaven it had been loaded with blanks. Even to this day, the safest position when I'm shooting a pistol is directly in front of me.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:25am
Reb Cpl wrote:
agentwhale007 wrote:
You and I are opposite people on everything, it looks like.
It often seems that way, doesn't it?
With a rifle, I could hit a target easier if I used it to smack a baseball at it.
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haha awesome. The very first time I was handed a pistol to shoot, after three rounds I took the magazine out to check the rounds. I swore to high heaven it had been loaded with blanks. Even to this day, the safest position when I'm shooting a pistol is directly in front of me.
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I've all but stopped shooting the one rifle I do own, a .30-30 Winchester '94.
I got tired of paying for ammunition to randomly donate to the dirt and places in the woods.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:29am
oldpbnoob wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I for one wouldn't be able to say he was "wildy" shooting randomly down the street.
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No, but the newsaper article did:
CITED NEWSPAPER ARTICLE wrote:
Nassar is the same man who shot wildly at a thief running away from his store in November 2007. | |
yeah, and we know the media is never "biased"...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:30am
agentwhale007 wrote:
I got tired of paying for ammunition to randomly donate to the dirt and places in the woods.
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Not to try to derail the thread any further, but there's a few trees behind my parent's house that have died of lead poisoning. One of them even fell down after several thousand rounds of .22 ammo ate into it.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:32am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
oldpbnoob wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I for one wouldn't be able to say he was "wildy" shooting randomly down the street.
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No, but the newsaper article did:
CITED NEWSPAPER ARTICLE wrote:
Nassar is the same man who shot wildly at a thief running away from his store in November 2007. | |
yeah, and we know the media is never "biased"... |
That graph in the story was a very poor use of writing for a number of reasons. 1) No attribution. Who said he was shooting wildly? 2) Adverbs should be used few and far between. 3) It really needs a quote from an eye witness who saw the first one or police who dealt with the first incident.
Lazy reporting is probably the answer.
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:33am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I for one wouldn't be able to say he was "wildy" shooting randomly down the street.
I'd bet most of the people on here couldn't hit a man sized target with a large caliper revolver from 20 feet, much less 30 feet... Especially with a 2 inch barrel, and high levels of stress... |
Correct. And with the knowledge that most people can't hit a target while standing still, how is it not reckless to do so while running?
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:34am
Skillet42565 wrote:
We should just ban all weapons from the public. Then crime would stop. |
Great. So after all the law-abiding citizens turn in their guns, you'll just trust the non-law abiding citizens to do the same? LOL
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:37am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I agree that he shouldn't have shot down the street, (but this was over the rhine, where gunshots down the street literally happen every day...)
It was wrong; fine him, send him to some gun training classes.
But, Don't take his means of protecting himself away...
I wonder if he had 17 shots instead of 5 and had hit and killed the armed robber, what would you think then?
Should cops be allowed to fire their weapons on the street?... |
He recklessly endangered the public by firing the weapon while chasing the guy. It was correct of the police to relieve him of his weapon. If he shot the guy in the confines of the establishment, it would be a different story.
Of course police should be allowed to. How many cops do you see running down the street haphazardly firing their weapons at fleeing felons?
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:38am
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:43am
Tennessee vs. Gardner clearly states that a cop can't shoot a fleeing suspect to stop him. If this holds true for cops, you better believe it goes for civilians as well.
You are wrong. Common sense says you are wrong, the Supreme Court says that you are wrong, get over it.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:43am
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Anyone else not at all surprised that FE is the only one who doesn't understand what happened? All of the other posts have made it extremely clear why they didn't do anything wrong, and he's still crying like a little girl over it.
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:48am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Actually, I could argue that he had a right to shoot at a retreating armed robber...
According to Ohio law.
You have an obligation to protect yourself and others if you are in fear for your life, or their life...
So if someone walks up to you and points a 45 in your face, and demands your money. In a downtown store, where there are bound to be others in the area... You give him your money and he runs away. That robber is still armed and dangerous. And everyone in the area is in danger of being killed by him, as he obviously has no regard for human life... |
Imminent danger. It does not give you the right to pursue and shoot the guy because he may potentially harm or kill somebody else later on.
If you saw anyone in the path of the robber, you would be protected under the law if you shot and killed the robber if you were "in fear for their life". |
True.
Or even if you were in fear for your own life, if the robber was swinging his gun in your direction while running away... |
That is very thin. Good luck convincing the jury on that one.
If an armed robber is running away, he can still discharge his firearm and kill you by shooting behind him... |
Now why would the robber wait until he was running away to shoot you? He'd have a far better rate of success while having the drop on you right off the get go. This is just a silly argument that holds no water.
So officially you would still be "in fear for your life". Standards that fit the current law in ohio... |
Only in the scenario in your mind. The chance of this kind of encounter happening once would be rare indeed. I'd be willing to bet you'd have a hard time selling it to any jury worth it's salt. -------------
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:52am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I for one wouldn't be able to say he was "wildy" shooting randomly down the street.
I shoot alot. A revolver is not easy to shoot, trigger pull, plus stress equals misses from close range, much less more than 10 feet...
I couldn't call that "wildly" shooting... He was trying to kill the guy, he was just a bad shot...
I'd bet most of the people on here couldn't hit a man sized target with a large caliper revolver from 20 feet, much less 30 feet... Especially with a 2 inch barrel, and high levels of stress... |
Have you tried running even at a moderate pace while shooting at a stationary target? Try it sometime and see where your rounds end up. Now imagine trying to do the same thing to a target that is moving. I'd call that 'wildly' shooting since it wasn't 'controlled'.
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:55am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
yeah, and we know the media is never "biased"... |
Not unlike yourself, of course.
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:57am
I was being sarcastic too. 
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 12:17pm
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someone is padding their postcount.
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Posted By: Tical3.0
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 12:31pm
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I wish I had a gun when I got robbed....
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 1:24pm
Eville wrote:
someone is padding their postcount.
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Like Holy Batman. That was like seven Knight posts in a row.
*EDIT* And two likes.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 1:26pm
Allow me to summarize most FE-initiated threads:
1. Copypasta anecdote
2. ...
3. Libs are bad
You consistently throw our these stories or factoids with no actual position taken or argued, just jumping directly to a vague "libs r bad, mmmkay" position.
What is your conclusion from this article? Is it your position that we should make sure that shop owners are armed? Or that they should be allowed to shoot on the street? Or that the cops are evil?
Or something else?
It would be really awesome if you would make some specific claims, or explain how your anecdote relates to your overall "libs are bad" theory. Throwing up random anecdotes with no explanation just isn't that helpful or persuasive.
That said, I encourage you not to follow your own legal advice:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Actually, I could argue that he had a right to shoot at a retreating armed robber... |
You can of course argue what you want, but that is all it is - an argument. The judge, of course, will rule based on law.
According to Ohio law.
You have an obligation to protect yourself and others if you are in fear for your life, or their life... |
Obligation? That seems rather strong. Without checking the statute, I would wager a significant amount of money that you are flat out wrong, and that you are not "obligated" to defend yourself. What - I get robbed, and then I go to jail for failing to defend myself?
Now, the law in 50 states does allow for reasonable force to defend oneself and, to a lesser degree, one's property. The specifics vary quite a bit from state to state, but I am not aware of any state that actually requires use of force.
So if someone walks up to you and points a 45 in your face, and demands your money. In a downtown store, where there are bound to be others in the area... You give him your money and he runs away. That robber is still armed and dangerous. And everyone in the area is in danger of being killed by him, as he obviously has no regard for human life... |
...therefore...conclusion? Are you trying to say that you are now required by law to chase him down and kill him? The levels of ridiculous in that statement are many. If that is not your conclusion, please state your actual conclusion.
If you saw anyone in the path of the robber, you would be protected under the law if you shot and killed the robber if you were "in fear for their life". |
Yeah, that's not accurate. Being afraid is not a license to kill.
Or even if you were in fear for your own life, if the robber was swinging his gun in your direction while running away...
If an armed robber is running away, he can still discharge his firearm and kill you by shooting behind him...
So officially you would still be "in fear for your life". Standards that fit the current law in ohio... |
And pretending to be afraid is certainly not a license to kill.
You are way, way off, as a matter of law.
Now, the rules for self-defense to vary from state to state, and I have not checked Ohio. But generally speaking you are NOT entitled to shoot at retreating criminals. Period. As a matter of practice, cops and DAs do tend to overlook some of these violations if nobody gets hurt, but the shop owner would have a very difficult time making an effective self defense argument here.
And you also certainly not allowed to shoot at retreating criminals to protect or recover property.
In fact, had the shop owner killed the robber, he very possibly could have been charged with manslaughter, or even murder. Again, there is some degree of sympathy for a little extra self defense, but at some point you cross the line. Hard to say here. Bottom line, though, is that vigilanteism is murder. If you are not actually defending yourself then you are vigilante and a murderer.
And then there are the bystanders. This store owner already committed several crimes, even without hurting anybody.
It is almost certainly a violation of Cincinnati ordinance to fire a weapon within city limits. Maybe civil violation, maybe criminal. At the state law level, there is almost certainly a statutory crime of reckless endangerment, and this is pretty much the definition of reckless endangerment. This is usually a felony, punishable by potentially long prison sentences.
Had he actually killed a bystander, then he would almost certainly be charged with manslaughter, and perhaps even murder.
Your "they're coming right at us" argument would not get you very far.
-------------
"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".
Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
|
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 1:28pm
Tical3.0 wrote:
I wish I had a gun when I got robbed.... |
Tempting thought, of course - but you clearly were not killed by this robber. It seems almost true by definition that you would have been more likely to have been killed by the robber if you were armed. I would suggest that the better thought is thankfulness that you were NOT armed.
Of course, the next robbery might be different, and so arming yourself might still be a good idea, but for your past robbery that is almost certainly not true.
-------------
"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".
Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
|
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 1:50pm
Actually, owning and running a business, and owning a firearm to protect it is different from self defence.
The laws and the rules governing the use of lethal force are different.
You can do things like run after and chase your assailant. You aren't acting in self defence of your life, you are acting in defence of a business. This means you can use force to protect your stock and your profits.
I obviously don't know what the laws in the 'States are but that's how it is in other parts of the world.
KBK
|
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 1:51pm
|
Self-Defense
Depending on the specific facts of the situation, an accused person
may claim that use of deadly force was justified to excuse his or her actions,
which would otherwise be a crime. Self-defense or the defense
of another is an affirmative defense that an accused may assert against
a criminal charge for an assault or homicide offense. The term “affirmative
defense” means the accused, not the prosecutor, must prove by
a preponderance of the evidence that he acted in self-defense or in defense
of another. In other words, the defendant must prove that it is more
probable than not that his use of deadly force was necessary due to the
circumstances of the situation.
Whether this affirmative defense applies to the situation or whether it
will likely succeed against criminal charges depends heavily on the specific
facts and circumstances of each situation. The Ohio Supreme Court
has explained that a defendant must prove three conditions to establish
that he acted in defense of himself or another.
21
Condition 1: Defendant Is Not At Fault
First, the defendant must prove that he was not at fault for creating
the situation. The defendant cannot be the first aggressor or initiator.
However, in proving the victim’s fault, a defendant cannot point to
other unrelated situations where the victim was the aggressor. Remember,
the focus is on the specific facts of the situation at hand.
If you escalate a confrontation by throwing the first punch, attacking,
or drawing your handgun, you are the aggressor. Most likely in this situation,
you cannot legitimately claim self-defense nor would you likely
succeed in proving your affirmative defense.
Condition 2: Reasonable and Honest Belief of Danger
Second, the defendant must prove that, at the time, he had a real belief
that he was in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm and
that his use of deadly force was the only way to escape that danger. Bear
in mind that deadly force may only be used to protect against serious
bodily harm or death. The key word is serious.
In deciding whether the bodily harm was serious, the judge or jury
can consider how the victim attacked the defendant, any weapon the
victim had, and how he used it against the defendant. Minor bruises or
bumps from a scuffle probably do not meet the legal definition of “serious.”
In court cases, rape has been determined to be serious bodily harm,
as has being attacked with scissors. Serious bodily harm may also result
from being struck with an object that can cause damage, such as a baseball
bat or a wooden club.
Important is the defendant’s belief that he is in immediate serious
danger. The defendant’s belief must be reasonable, it cannot be purely
speculative. In deciding if the belief was reasonable and honest, the
judge or jury will envision themselves standing in the defendant’s shoes
and consider his physical characteristics, emotional state, mental status,
knowledge, the victim’s actions, words and all other facts regarding
the encounter. The victim must have acted in a threatening manner.
Words alone, regardless of how abusive or provoking, or threats of future
harm (“I’m going to kill you tomorrow”) do not justify the use of deadly
force.
22
Condition 3: Duty to Retreat
A defendant must show that he did not have a duty to retreat or avoid
the danger. A person must retreat or avoid danger by leaving or voicing
his intention to leave and ending his participation in the confrontation. If
the person retreats and the other continues to fight, the person who left
the confrontation may be later justified in using deadly force when he
can prove all three conditions of self-defense existed. You should always
try to retreat from a confrontation before using deadly force if retreating
does not endanger yourself or others.
If the person can escape danger by means such as leaving or using less
than deadly force, he must use those means. If you have no means to
escape the other person’s attack and you reasonably, honestly believe that
you are about to be killed or receive serious bodily harm, you may be able
to use deadly force if that is the only way for you to escape that danger.
Castle Doctrine
Under certain changes enacted in 2008, a person does not have a duty
to retreat from the residence that they lawfully occupy before using force
in self-defense or defense of another. Additionally, there is no duty to
retreat if the person is lawfully in that person’s vehicle or lawfully is an
occupant in a vehicle owned by an immediate family member of that
person. However, being a lawful occupant of a residence or vehicle is
not a license to use deadly force against an attacker. The person who is
attacked, without fault of his own, may use deadly force only if he reasonably
and honestly believed that deadly force was necessary to prevent
serious bodily harm or death. If the person does not have this belief, he
should not use deadly force. Again, if it does not put your life or the life
of others in danger, you should withdraw from the confrontation if it is
safe for you to do so.
The law presumes you to have acted in self-defense or defense of
another when using deadly force if the victim had unlawfully and without
privilege entered or was in the process of entering the residence or
23
vehicle you occupy. The presumption does not apply if the defendant
was unlawfully in that residence or vehicle. The presumption does not
apply if the victim had a right to be in, or was a lawful resident, of the
residence or vehicle.
The presumption of self-defense is a rebuttable presumption. The
term “rebuttable presumption” means the prosecutor, and not the defendant,
carries the burden of producing evidence contrary to the facts that
the law presumes. However, a rebuttable presumption does not relieve
the defendant of the burden of proof. If the prosecutor provides sufficient
evidence to prove that the defendant created the confrontation
or that the use of deadly force was not reasonably necessary to prevent
death or great bodily harm then the presumption of self-defense no longer
exists.
Statutory Reference(s): R.C. 2901.05 sets forth the rebuttable
presumption
R.C. 2901.09(B) establishes that there is no duty to retreat before
using force if a person is a lawful occupant of that person’s
vehicle or a lawful occupant in a vehicle owned by an immediate
family member.
Defense of Others
A person may defend another only if the protected person would have
had the right to use deadly force in self-defense themselves. Under Ohio
law, a person may defend family members, friends or strangers. However,
just as if he were protecting himself, a person cannot use any more
force than is reasonable and necessary to prevent the harm threatened.
A defendant, who claims he used deadly force to protect another, has
to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that the person he protected
was in immediate danger of serious bodily harm or death and that
deadly force was the only way to protect the person from that danger.
Furthermore, the defendant must also show that the protected person
was not at fault for creating the situation and did not have a duty to leave
or avoid the situation.
24
WARNING: The law specifically discourages citizens from taking
matters into their own hands and acting as law enforcement. This is
true even if the person thinks he is performing a good deed by protecting
someone or helping law enforcement. The Ohio Supreme Court has
ruled that a person risks criminal charges if he interferes in a struggle
and protects the person who was at fault, even if he mistakenly believed
that person did not create the situation.
In other words, if you misinterpret a situation and interfere, you may
face criminal charges because your use of deadly force is not justified. If
you do not know all the facts and interfere, you will not be justified to
use force. It does not matter that you mistakenly believed another was in
danger and not at fault.
Of greater concern than risking criminal charges is the fact that you
may be putting yourself and others in danger. If you use your handgun
to interfere in a situation, and an officer arrives on the scene, the officer
will not be able to tell if you are the criminal or if you are the Good
Samaritan.
Ohio law does not encourage vigilantism. A license to carry a concealed
handgun does not deputize you as a law enforcement agent. Officers
are trained to protect members of the community, handle all types
of situations, and enforce the law. Do not allow the license to carry a
concealed handgun give you a false sense of security or empowerment.
Let law enforcement officers do their job. If you want to be a Good Samaritan,
call the police.
Conclusion: Self-Defense Issues
If the defendant fails to prove any one of the three conditions for self
defense or defense of another, he fails to justify his use of deadly force.
If the presumptions of deadly force in the home or vehicle are removed
and the defendant is unable to prove that he did not create the situation
or that the use of deadly force was reasonably necessary, he fails to
justify his use of deadly force. Under either condition, if convicted, an
individual will be sentenced accordingly.
25
Defense of Property
There must be immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death in
order to use deadly force. Protecting property alone does not allow for
the use of deadly force. A property owner may use reasonable, but never
deadly force, when he honestly believes that the force will protect his
property from harm.
If a person’s property is being attacked or threatened, he may not use
deadly force unless he reasonably believes it was the only way to protect
himself or another from being killed or receiving serious bodily harm.
Deadly force can never be used solely to protect property no matter
where the threat to the property occurs.
Conclusion
A license to carry a concealed handgun does not bring with it the automatic
right to use deadly force. The appropriateness of using any force
depends on the specific facts of each and every situation.
------------- They tremble at my name...
|
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:10pm
I don't think I'll come back to this thread anymore.
------------- ?
|
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:10pm
|
^^ So once again, you post something that pretty much contradicts your entire stance.
|
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:12pm
FE's latest copypasta wrote:
If the person can escape danger by means such as leaving or using less
than deadly force, he must use those means. |
seems pretty damn clear to me.
|
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:13pm
oldpbnoob wrote:
^^ So once again, you post something that pretty much contradicts your entire stance. |
Once again, he's been proven wrong, but like a toolbox he refuses to accept it.
|
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:25pm
Free Enterprise wrote:
Condition 3: Duty to Retreat A defendant must show that he did not have a duty to retreat or avoid
the danger. A person must retreat or avoid danger by leaving or voicing
his intention to leave and ending his participation in the confrontation. If
the person retreats and the other continues to fight, the person who left
the confrontation may be later justified in using deadly force when he
can prove all three conditions of self-defense existed. You should always
try to retreat from a confrontation before using deadly force if retreating
does not endanger yourself or others.
If the person can escape danger by means such as leaving or using less
than deadly force, he must use those means. If you have no means to
escape the other person’s attack and you reasonably, honestly believe that
you are about to be killed or receive serious bodily harm, you may be able
to use deadly force if that is the only way for you to escape that danger.
|
What? That contradicts your ENTIRE opinion on the matter, especially your legal opinion.
------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs>
|
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:29pm
|
Defense of Others
A person may defend another only if the protected person would have
had the right to use deadly force in self-defense themselves. Under Ohio
law, a person may defend family members, friends or strangers. However,
just as if he were protecting himself, a person cannot use any more
force than is reasonable and necessary to prevent the harm threatened.
A defendant, who claims he used deadly force to protect another, has
to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that the person he protected
was in immediate danger of serious bodily harm or death and that
deadly force was the only way to protect the person from that danger.
Furthermore, the defendant must also show that the protected person
was not at fault for creating the situation and did not have a duty to leave
or avoid the situation.
The above statement is the legal opening for the argument I used... I didn't say it was a correct argument, I just said it could be argued, legally...
------------- They tremble at my name...
|
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:34pm
So, you're admitting it's wrong?
I'm pretty sure you're the pinnacle of internet conversation, FE. Your arguments are generally meritless, you back them up with contradictory and insufficient evidence, and you refuse to accept anyone else's logic.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
|
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:38pm
oldpbnoob wrote:
^^ So once again, you post something that pretty much contradicts your entire stance. |
Sure seems that way...
-------------
"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".
Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
|
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:43pm
THE REAPER wrote:
A defendant, who claims he used deadly force to protect another, has
to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that the person he protected
was in immediate danger of serious bodily harm or death and that
deadly force was the only way to protect the person from that danger. |
BAM!! Right there. Immediate danger. No court would ever be able to find that someone running away from a crime would be allowed to be gunned down. There is no IMMEDIATE danger to anyone. Now if the person is running down the street, grabs some old lady and puts the gun to her head, yes. But not fleeing from a crime TRYING TO GET AWAY. Further, it is not mentioned in the article whether a gun was even involved in the previous robbery. Maybe the guy just had a knife. Either way, it does not constitute the prerequisite for immediate danger.
Next.
|
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:45pm
Posted By: PaiNTbALLfReNzY
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 2:56pm
|
Seriously? Page 3 and no Tec9? Someone is slacking.
|
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 3:13pm
I bet if he never shot at a guy that robbed him, he wouldn't have got killed by another robbery.
------------- Que pasa?
|
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 4:00pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I agree that he shouldn't have shot down the street, (but this was over the rhine, where gunshots down the street literally happen every day...)
It was wrong; fine him, send him to some gun training classes.
But, Don't take his means of protecting himself away...
I wonder if he had 17 shots instead of 5 and had hit and killed the armed robber, what would you think then?
Should cops be allowed to fire their weapons on the street?... |
I know this question has already been answered, but the sheer ignorance in the post just astounded me.
First of all-
A:) You can't shoot a fleeing person.
B:) Emptying rounds from a shotgun into a public area unloads all kinds of .30 pellets at a deadly speed to anyone within 30-40 yards of this place.
C:) A police officer would have NEVER fired a shotgun willy nilly 5 times and missed. Obviously the man was completely incapable of using a deadly weapon, and put lives on the line.
It's unfortunate that he died, and that saddens me, but the shop owner had no rights to do what he did. If one of those pellets had hit and killed a child, this man would be facing criminal charges right now. As far as I'm concerned, as a life long gun owner and advocate, this man did not deserve to have a gun.
This story all boils down ot responsibility-owning a gun is a huge responsibility, and if you can't excercise the restraint, you don't get to own one, plain and simple.
-------------
|
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 4:03pm
K just realized it wasn't a shotgun, but my point still stands :P
-------------
|
Posted By: Tical3.0
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 4:37pm
PaiNTbALLfReNzY wrote:
Seriously? Page 3 and no Tec9? Someone is slacking. | Thats cause the Harpoon owns the Tec9
|
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 4:41pm
Harpoons should only be used on fatties.
-------------
|
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 5:15pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Defense of Others
A person may defend another only if the protected person would have
had the right to use deadly force in self-defense themselves. Under Ohio
law, a person may defend family members, friends or strangers. However,
just as if he were protecting himself, a person cannot use any more
force than is reasonable and necessary to prevent the harm threatened.
A defendant, who claims he used deadly force to protect another, has
to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that the person he protected
was in immediate danger of serious bodily harm or death and that
deadly force was the only way to protect the person from that danger.
Furthermore, the defendant must also show that the protected person
was not at fault for creating the situation and did not have a duty to leave
or avoid the situation.
The above statement is the legal opening for the argument I used... I didn't say it was a correct argument, I just said it could be argued, legally... |
Defense of... who? The shopkeeper from the fleeing criminals?
------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs>
|
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 5:36pm
agentwhale007 wrote:
. . . I am going to bet, Dune can help me out
here, that a suspect running away with $400 in stolen goods is not one
of those times when discharging your weapon is permitted. |
Will my input do instead? I won't go into all of the rules of deadly
force we operated under, but generally speaking a fleeing suspect in an
urban area is not considered a legitimate target. First, the suspect
is fleeing, this means his intent is to get away, not create a threat
to anyone else. Second, the urban area increases the potential for any
misses (or through-and-throughs) to cause unintended harm. The store
owner did not use his weapon in a responsible manner and was a hazard
to the public. The article does not specify that this was why the
weapon was confiscated (it could well have been for forensic reasons)
but it should be sufficient reason to take the idiots weapon.
agentwhale007 wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Actually, I could argue that he had a right to shoot at a retreating armed robber...
According to Ohio law.
You have an obligation to protect yourself and others if you are in fear for your life, or their life...
So if someone walks up to you and points a 45 in your face, and
demands your money. In a downtown store, where there are bound to be
others in the area... You give him your money and he runs away. That
robber is still armed and dangerous. And everyone in the area is in
danger of being killed by him, as he obviously has no regard for human
life...
If you saw anyone in the path of the robber, you would be
protected under the law if you shot and killed the robber if you were
"in fear for their life". Or even if you were in fear for your own
life, if the robber was swinging his gun in your direction while
running away...
If an armed robber is running away, he can still discharge his firearm and kill you by shooting behind him...
So officially you would still be "in fear for your life". Standards that fit the current law in ohio...
|
That's a wee bit of a stretch.
|
That's a huge stretch. It's similar to the difference between trolling and trooooooooooooooooooooolling.
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I for one wouldn't be able to say he was "wildy" shooting randomly down the street.
Doesn't matter what you call it. He fired five
shots which missed the intended target in an urban area. That's five
live rounds that could have hit/endangered people other than the
intended target. That is not responsible use of a weapon and is a
valid reason (in my opinion) for confiscation.
I shoot alot. A revolver is not easy to shoot, trigger pull, plus
stress equals misses from close range, much less more than 10 feet...
I used to shoot a lot as well. The point is that
when there is a potential for unintended consequences you should not
fire your weapon unless your life is in danger.
I couldn't call that "wildly" shooting... He was trying to kill the guy, he was just a bad shot...
Bad shot and missing = "shooting wildly" in that the actions endanger others in the same manner.
I'd bet most of the people on here couldn't hit a man sized target
with a large caliper revolver from 20 feet, much less 30 feet...
Especially with a 2 inch barrel, and high levels of stress...
Probably not . . .but then you don't see most
people here chasing a robber down the street and shooting up the
neighborhood either. (If they did, they should give up their gun as
well.)
|
FreeEnterprise wrote:
oldpbnoob wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I for one wouldn't be able to say he was "wildy" shooting randomly down the street.
|
No, but the newsaper article did:
CITED NEWSPAPER ARTICLE wrote:
Nassar is the same man who shot
wildly at a thief running away from his store in November 2007.
|
|
yeah, and we know the media is never "biased"...
|
So . . . the newspaper isn't biased in it's reporting of the basic
incident, but it is biased in using the one word which undermines your
specific argument?
Riiiiight.
Peter Parker wrote:
It would be really awesome if you would make some
specific claims, or explain how your anecdote relates to your overall
"libs are bad" theory. Throwing up random anecdotes with no explanation
just isn't that helpful or persuasive.
|
But it does make it easier to repeatedly change positions/arguments
related to a specific topic each time the current position/argument is
proven wrong.
(It is, as Maxwell Smart would say ". . . the old I wasn't really arguing what you thought I was arguing argument.")
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Defense of Others
A person may defend another only if the protected person would have
had the right to use deadly force in self-defense themselves. Under Ohio
law, a person may defend family members, friends or strangers. However,
just as if he were protecting himself, a person cannot use any more
force than is reasonable and necessary to prevent the harm threatened.
A defendant, who claims he used deadly force to protect another, has
to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that the person he protected
was in immediate danger of serious bodily harm or death and that
deadly force was the only way to protect the person from that danger.
Furthermore, the defendant must also show that the protected person
was not at fault for creating the situation and did not have a duty to leave
or avoid the situation.
The above statement is the legal opening for the argument
I used... I didn't say it was a correct argument, I just said it could
be argued, legally... |
Here's something else that can be argued legally. If there were indeed
other bystanders on the street while the owner was firing "wildly" at
the fleeing felon, then he was a bigger danger to them than the theif
who had the loot he desired and was only intent on leaving the area
with it. If there were no such bystanders, then, using your logic, the
shop owner had no reason to be firing his weapon as there was no one to
protect. Either way, he is not a responsible gun owner/user.
-------------
|
Posted By: bravecoward
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 5:45pm
1.) his name was nassar so theres a good chance hes a terrorist 2.) anyone who opens a shop in over the rhine basically plans to be rob. The stop and go me and my buddies go to in clifton is nick named rob and go since it happens almost every week.
whats scary is all this violence is moving up the hill and closer to i live.
-------------
|
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 5:48pm
bravecoward wrote:
1.) his name was nassar so theres a good chance hes a terrorist.
|
Good point.
Hopefully we can get him into Gitmo before they close it.
-------------
"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".
Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
|
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 5:54pm
Peter Parker wrote:
bravecoward wrote:
1.) his name was nassar so theres a good chance hes a terrorist.
|
Good point.
Hopefully we can get him into Gitmo before they close it.
|
Except he's dead because the government took his gun away. I am all for sending our dead to Cuba though. Frees up some valuable real estate. Maybe let them ripen and use a Trebuchet?
|
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 6:42pm
Oh yeah, he died.
I would be sad, but he was a terrorist after all.
Do we have a special terrorist burial ground in Cuba?
-------------
"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".
Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 6:44pm
Peter Parker wrote:
Oh yeah, he died.
I would be sad, but he was a terrorist after all.
Do we have a special terrorist burial ground in Cuba? |
Yeah, it's called the Bay of Pigs.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 6:49pm
Perfect. It will provide a lunch snack for the boat people.
-------------
"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".
Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
|
Posted By: Snipa69
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 6:53pm
Skillet42565 wrote:
We should just ban all weapons from the public. Then crime would stop. |
I sincerely hope you are kidding. That is the wrost form of logic I have ever heard. Anything can be a leathal weapon so where do you draw the line? I could beat you to a bloody pulp with my 5 iron and then do we have to ban golf?
The historical fact of the matter is that when gun crimes were at their lowest point when the police force was formed many many years ago it was the police that weren't allowed to initially cary a firearm but instead a billyclub. Ironic, isn't it?
------------- http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/857/sig9ac6cs1mj.jpg -
|
Posted By: JohnnyCanuck
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 7:02pm
Snipa69 wrote:
Skillet42565 wrote:
We should just ban all weapons from the public. Then crime would stop. |
I sincerely hope you are kidding. That is the wrost form of logic I have ever heard. Anything can be a leathal weapon so where do you draw the line? I could beat you to a bloody pulp with my 5 iron and then do we have to ban golf?
The historical fact of the matter is that when gun crimes were at their lowest point when the police force was formed many many years ago it was the police that weren't allowed to initially cary a firearm but instead a billyclub. Ironic, isn't it? |
phacepalm
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 7:32pm
Snipa69 wrote:
Skillet42565 wrote:
We should just ban all weapons from the public. Then crime would stop. |
I sincerely hope you are kidding. That is the wrost form of logic I have ever heard. Anything can be a leathal weapon so where do you draw the line? I could beat you to a bloody pulp with my 5 iron and then do we have to ban golf?
The historical fact of the matter is that when gun crimes were at their lowest point when the police force was formed many many years ago it was the police that weren't allowed to initially cary a firearm but instead a billyclub. Ironic, isn't it? |
How is that at all ironic....
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 7:44pm
Snipa69 wrote:
Skillet42565 wrote:
We should just ban all weapons from the public. Then crime would stop. |
I sincerely hope you are kidding. That is the wrost form of logic I have ever heard. Anything can be a leathal weapon so where do you draw the line? I could beat you to a bloody pulp with my 5 iron and then do we have to ban golf?
The historical fact of the matter is that when gun crimes were at their lowest point when the police force was formed many many years ago it was the police that weren't allowed to initially cary a firearm but instead a billyclub. Ironic, isn't it? |
Someones Sarcasm detector needs it's batteries changed.
And they should ban golf just on principal. At least the goofy ass pants. And I would use a 3 iron, better balance.
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 7:57pm
Skillet42565 wrote:
Harpoons should only be used on fatties.
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Exactly.
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 7:59pm
High Voltage wrote:
Skillet42565 wrote:
Harpoons should only be used on fatties. |
Exactly.
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I thought most Gingers were Chubby Chasers?
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 8:37pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Self-Defense
Depending on the specific facts of the situation, an accused person
may claim that use of deadly force was justified to excuse his or her actions,
which would otherwise be a crime. Self-defense or the defense
of another is an affirmative defense that an accused may assert against
a criminal charge for an assault or homicide offense. The term “affirmative
defense” means the accused, not the prosecutor, must prove by
a preponderance of the evidence that he acted in self-defense or in defense
of another. In other words, the defendant must prove that it is more
probable than not that his use of deadly force was necessary due to the
circumstances of the situation.
Whether this affirmative defense applies to the situation or whether it
will likely succeed against criminal charges depends heavily on the specific
facts and circumstances of each situation. The Ohio Supreme Court
has explained that a defendant must prove three conditions to establish
that he acted in defense of himself or another.
21
Condition 1: Defendant Is Not At Fault
First, the defendant must prove that he was not at fault for creating
the situation. The defendant cannot be the first aggressor or initiator.
However, in proving the victim’s fault, a defendant cannot point to
other unrelated situations where the victim was the aggressor. Remember,
the focus is on the specific facts of the situation at hand.
If you escalate a confrontation by throwing the first punch, attacking,
or drawing your handgun, you are the aggressor. Most likely in this situation,
you cannot legitimately claim self-defense nor would you likely
succeed in proving your affirmative defense.
Condition 2: Reasonable and Honest Belief of Danger
Second, the defendant must prove that, at the time, he had a real belief
that he was in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm and
that his use of deadly force was the only way to escape that danger. Bear
in mind that deadly force may only be used to protect against serious
bodily harm or death. The key word is serious.
In deciding whether the bodily harm was serious, the judge or jury
can consider how the victim attacked the defendant, any weapon the
victim had, and how he used it against the defendant. Minor bruises or
bumps from a scuffle probably do not meet the legal definition of “serious.”
In court cases, rape has been determined to be serious bodily harm,
as has being attacked with scissors. Serious bodily harm may also result
from being struck with an object that can cause damage, such as a baseball
bat or a wooden club.
Important is the defendant’s belief that he is in immediate serious
danger. The defendant’s belief must be reasonable, it cannot be purely
speculative. In deciding if the belief was reasonable and honest, the
judge or jury will envision themselves standing in the defendant’s shoes
and consider his physical characteristics, emotional state, mental status,
knowledge, the victim’s actions, words and all other facts regarding
the encounter. The victim must have acted in a threatening manner.
Words alone, regardless of how abusive or provoking, or threats of future
harm (“I’m going to kill you tomorrow”) do not justify the use of deadly
force.
22
Condition 3: Duty to Retreat
A defendant must show that he did not have a duty to retreat or avoid
the danger. A person must retreat or avoid danger by leaving or voicing
his intention to leave and ending his participation in the confrontation. If
the person retreats and the other continues to fight, the person who left
the confrontation may be later justified in using deadly force when he
can prove all three conditions of self-defense existed. You should always
try to retreat from a confrontation before using deadly force if retreating
does not endanger yourself or others.
If the person can escape danger by means such as leaving or using less
than deadly force, he must use those means. If you have no means to
escape the other person’s attack and you reasonably, honestly believe that
you are about to be killed or receive serious bodily harm, you may be able
to use deadly force if that is the only way for you to escape that danger.
Castle Doctrine
Under certain changes enacted in 2008, a person does not have a duty
to retreat from the residence that they lawfully occupy before using force
in self-defense or defense of another. Additionally, there is no duty to
retreat if the person is lawfully in that person’s vehicle or lawfully is an
occupant in a vehicle owned by an immediate family member of that
person. However, being a lawful occupant of a residence or vehicle is
not a license to use deadly force against an attacker. The person who is
attacked, without fault of his own, may use deadly force only if he reasonably
and honestly believed that deadly force was necessary to prevent
serious bodily harm or death. If the person does not have this belief, he
should not use deadly force. Again, if it does not put your life or the life
of others in danger, you should withdraw from the confrontation if it is
safe for you to do so.
The law presumes you to have acted in self-defense or defense of
another when using deadly force if the victim had unlawfully and without
privilege entered or was in the process of entering the residence or
23
vehicle you occupy. The presumption does not apply if the defendant
was unlawfully in that residence or vehicle. The presumption does not
apply if the victim had a right to be in, or was a lawful resident, of the
residence or vehicle.
The presumption of self-defense is a rebuttable presumption. The
term “rebuttable presumption” means the prosecutor, and not the defendant,
carries the burden of producing evidence contrary to the facts that
the law presumes. However, a rebuttable presumption does not relieve
the defendant of the burden of proof. If the prosecutor provides sufficient
evidence to prove that the defendant created the confrontation
or that the use of deadly force was not reasonably necessary to prevent
death or great bodily harm then the presumption of self-defense no longer
exists.
Statutory Reference(s): R.C. 2901.05 sets forth the rebuttable
presumption
R.C. 2901.09(B) establishes that there is no duty to retreat before
using force if a person is a lawful occupant of that person’s
vehicle or a lawful occupant in a vehicle owned by an immediate
family member.
Defense of Others
A person may defend another only if the protected person would have
had the right to use deadly force in self-defense themselves. Under Ohio
law, a person may defend family members, friends or strangers. However,
just as if he were protecting himself, a person cannot use any more
force than is reasonable and necessary to prevent the harm threatened.
A defendant, who claims he used deadly force to protect another, has
to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that the person he protected
was in immediate danger of serious bodily harm or death and that
deadly force was the only way to protect the person from that danger.
Furthermore, the defendant must also show that the protected person
was not at fault for creating the situation and did not have a duty to leave
or avoid the situation.
24
WARNING: The law specifically discourages citizens from taking
matters into their own hands and acting as law enforcement. This is
true even if the person thinks he is performing a good deed by protecting
someone or helping law enforcement. The Ohio Supreme Court has
ruled that a person risks criminal charges if he interferes in a struggle
and protects the person who was at fault, even if he mistakenly believed
that person did not create the situation.
In other words, if you misinterpret a situation and interfere, you may
face criminal charges because your use of deadly force is not justified. If
you do not know all the facts and interfere, you will not be justified to
use force. It does not matter that you mistakenly believed another was in
danger and not at fault.
Of greater concern than risking criminal charges is the fact that you
may be putting yourself and others in danger. If you use your handgun
to interfere in a situation, and an officer arrives on the scene, the officer
will not be able to tell if you are the criminal or if you are the Good
Samaritan.
Ohio law does not encourage vigilantism. A license to carry a concealed
handgun does not deputize you as a law enforcement agent. Officers
are trained to protect members of the community, handle all types
of situations, and enforce the law. Do not allow the license to carry a
concealed handgun give you a false sense of security or empowerment.
Let law enforcement officers do their job. If you want to be a Good Samaritan,
call the police.
Conclusion: Self-Defense Issues
If the defendant fails to prove any one of the three conditions for self
defense or defense of another, he fails to justify his use of deadly force.
If the presumptions of deadly force in the home or vehicle are removed
and the defendant is unable to prove that he did not create the situation
or that the use of deadly force was reasonably necessary, he fails to
justify his use of deadly force. Under either condition, if convicted, an
individual will be sentenced accordingly.
25
Defense of Property
There must be immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death in
order to use deadly force. Protecting property alone does not allow for
the use of deadly force. A property owner may use reasonable, but never
deadly force, when he honestly believes that the force will protect his
property from harm.
If a person’s property is being attacked or threatened, he may not use
deadly force unless he reasonably believes it was the only way to protect
himself or another from being killed or receiving serious bodily harm.
Deadly force can never be used solely to protect property no matter
where the threat to the property occurs.
Conclusion
A license to carry a concealed handgun does not bring with it the automatic
right to use deadly force. The appropriateness of using any force
depends on the specific facts of each and every situation.
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Ok, now point out specifically above where your victim was justified chasing the robber down the street firing wildly as he went.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 8:46pm
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Also, this thread should be titled "Man abuses firearm, has it taken away, is killed in unrelated incident"
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:28pm
Conclusion
A license to carry a concealed handgun does not bring with it the automatic right to use deadly force. The appropriateness of using any force depends on the specific facts of each and every situation. |
And there you have it. The crux of every self defense and CCW course on the face of the planet. Dude was wrong for running down the street after the guy and unloading his firearm in public. That's the type of moron who screws it up for all of us responsible gun owners.
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 11:31pm
choopie911 wrote:
Also, this thread should be titled "Man abuses firearm, has it taken away, is killed in unrelated incident" |
QFT.
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Posted By: PaiNTbALLfReNzY
Date Posted: 05 March 2009 at 8:29am
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 05 March 2009 at 10:37am
Posted By: gh0st
Date Posted: 05 March 2009 at 11:55am
Skillet42565 wrote:
We should just ban all weapons from the public. Then crime would stop.
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As if someone who has a criminal mindset won't illegally obtain a gun?
It's like on the outside of buildings they have signs posted: "It is illegal to carry a weapon in this building."
You might as well put "Attention criminals. All law abiding citizens in this building are unarmed and pose no threat to you. Good luck have fun"
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 05 March 2009 at 12:03pm
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lol at everyone taking skillet seriously
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Posted By: gh0st
Date Posted: 05 March 2009 at 12:08pm
I feel stupid now.
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 05 March 2009 at 12:13pm
Texas is the only place where this kind of stuff flies.
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 irc.esper.net #paintball
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