new pistol
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Topic: new pistol
Posted By: merc
Subject: new pistol
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 11:46am
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so i had a scare last night, thought someone was in the house, 20lb dog and a .22lr that is known to jam is not what i want to be stuck with....
looking at a ruger p345 or glock 30 my buddy is trying to talk me into a magnum research baby eagle or HK USP. i may also pick up a rem 870 or mossberg 500. i have about 1k to spend and want to have a few rounds of ammo. |
Replies:
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 11:51am
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If you're picking up a weapon specifically for home defense, I've always leaned toward shotguns for that purpose.
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 12:18pm
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The Baby Eagle is a good gun. I've always liked the Jericho.
The Glock 30 is also a good gun. Personally I carry a Glock 26. However, if it is only a house defence gun, there is no real reason not to get a full sized weapon. Sub compacts are good for carrying a weapon, but they don't make very good weapons. While it is the user with the weapon more than the weapon or gadgets on it, mounting things like lights and lasers on guns is a bonus. While weapon lights shouldn't be your primary source of light, they are useful to identify your target before you open fire. Having a weapon mounted light means your light and your weapon are always in the same place. If you have separate weapon and lights you need to control both hands. Fine motor co-ordination is always the first thing that goes when the adrenaline is pumping. KISS. There are some good lights out there that allow you to retain a two handed shooting grip on your gun. Weapon mounted lights means you are going to be pointing a gun at whatever you are illuminating. Not always a good thing. Personally I'm a big fan of lasers for house defence guns. They can provide enough illumination for you to ID your target, and they are super obvious at night. Just remember the work both ways. The badguys can see the big red glowing light on your gun. However that shouldn't be a problem because the light should be blinding them as well. Shotguns are good because they are cheap and effective. I like the 870, but I have nothing against the 500. They are both very effective weapons. Remember at general indoor sort of ranges, the shot won't have spread out much more than the original 12 guage.Personally I think shotguns need quite a bit of work to be the top combat weapon people try make it out to be. While they can and do work out the box, I'd definately add bunch of extras on it. To make the shotgun a good weapon the first thing I'd do is replace the forearm with a Surefire light setup. IF nothing else, this is the most important addition. It'll give you a light source. There isn't any realistic way to carry a light and use a two handed weapon. However, firearms are not always the answer, there are also other things to consider, like more house security, and having a propper plan. Just because you've got a weapon it doesn't mean you have to go find the source of the noise. While a panic room is probably a little OTT, having a plan and a room you are going to fall back to is generally a good idea. It is easier to get everyone into one room and lock the door. Get on the phone and call the cops. Then announce loudly that you've done so, and that you'll shoot anyone trying to get into the room. Clearing a house, even a small flat is very very hard to do solo, and it isn't advisable. KBK |
Posted By: .636
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 3:27pm
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Get a full sized handgun, 40 cal would be my choice like a XD40 or Glock 22 both with night sights and a weapons light so you can stun/identify your target. Personally id rather not shoot blindly into the night not knowing who it could be if you have others living in your house Or the other option is a shotgun with low recoil buckshot and a light. SBS would be a nice thing to have but I know you yanks need to pay a 200 dollar tax on them. Come to think of it... isnt the Serbu Super Shorty a AOW and is trasnferable with a 5 dollar stamp? Id say get that. ------------- |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 3:28pm
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While agree with a lot of what kayback said about shotguns, I've generally been taught that they are a better home-defense solution to a long-rifle or a pistol. Sure, the shot may not spread into a hug pattern, but that isn't what makes it more effective. The energy transferred to target is much higher with a shotgun than a pistol or rifle at in-home range. That is why they're better for home defense. 1 round of triple-aught buck will put someone down while depending on the person, a 9mm might not do so.
If you are looking for a good personal defense shotgun, buy one for that distinct purpose. Ithaca, Mossberg, Remington, Winchester, et-al all have home-defense models with the minimum required barrel length to give you a wider shot pattern given the close range. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: sinisterNorth
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 3:34pm
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I would go with the Mossberg 5. KBK and tallen hit the big points. ------------- Pumpker'd; (V.) When a pump player runs up and shoots you at point blank range because you thought 20bps made you good. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 4:02pm
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I dunno about the shot spreading. You'd want it as tight as possible. While there is a small margin of error afforded by spreading shot, that should be reserved for hitting birds on the wing and not combat.
The attraction to a shotgun is you can deliver (With 00 buck) 8 9mm sized rounds on target with one trigger pull. There is no other weapon that can realistically do that. Over the typical indoor distance, the shot is likely to still be in the shot-cup, let alone spreading out. The thing I don't like about shotguns is they are heavy and unwieldy, and they are loud. Touch one off indoors and you won't be hearing anything for ages. While this is true of most weapons powerful enough to do what you want, I'd still go with a semi auto rifle. I know there are people out there who poo poo this idea, but in a home shooting I want to know with 100% certainty where my shots will land. With either a 5.56mm or a .30 carbine, I pull the trigger once, I know where that bullet is going to land. With a shotgun loaded with 00, there are 8 lead 9mm sized projectiles, and the shot-cup. Now I know where the shot SHOULD land, I've got no idea where the cup will go. Now I'm not saying you should be doing hostage situation takedowns or anything, but I'd just like to know for sure where my rounds will stop. Shotguns are useful because they are effective, they are cheap and everyone knows to fear one. They are also very very easy to defend against in court. However give me an M1 carbine over a 12 guage and I'll be happy. Put some soft points in it and maybe an optic of some sort, but whatever. 5.56mm with frangible or HP ammo and I'm even happier. There is also the added advantage that in one magazine I've got between 15 and 35 rounds, depending on weapon and magazine setup. And it's 15-35 rounds I can top up in one movement. True a firefight shouldn't ever last longer than the 7 rounds in a shotgun, but what if? You start the fight with at least double the ammo, and can top it up in 1/7th the time. Whats not to love? But on a limited budget I'd get a nice second hand 870 with a Surefire frontend. With that setup you are pretty much golden. Then pick up a pistol if you really want one. I'd make it something that can take a laser and a light. You don't need all the additions instantly, but you can add them over time. If you want a housegun/carry gun, look at the Glocks in the Compact range. If your heart is set on .45, that'll be the Glock 21 SF. KBK |
Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 6:54pm
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Shot my friend's baby Eagle a few weeks ago. So nice. I prefer it over a Glock .40.
-------------  irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 6:58pm
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i held a glock and hated it. (edit: i couldn't drop the mag out on the glock)
they dident have any of the other guns i was looking for so i asked for a .40 XD, liked the feel so i asked to buy. he checked my ID and asked if it was my current addy and i told him it was my moms... deal off. i think im gunna look at the sub comp .40 XD, short grip but extra mag has an extension... good for DEF for now and carry later i rented an XD .45 and it was a little much for me, shot 5rds and kept them witin 6" at 10 yards... not bad for the 2nd time shooting a pistol and first time shooting a pistol over .22lr... i got my buddys 357 mag and that was INSANE actully hurt my hand to shoot. ran some 38s through it and it ran smooth. then we had some fun loading a random number of 38s and 357s in the cylinder then shooting it... we ran off the guy in the stall next to us. he was pissed about the 357 mag and asked how long we were gunna be shooting, when my buddy said 150 rds he packed up and left. the next guy who came in had an AR15 that malfunctioned and went full auto... |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 7:06pm
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I love my S&W sigma 9mm...
I got it a few years back for $220, with 4 hi cap magazines. It shoots great, better than my brothers XD40. ------------- They tremble at my name... 
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Posted By: proteus316
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 7:17pm
| You'll love the XD, I have an XD9 and its great. |
Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 7:28pm
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ive heard a lot of political crap about S&W so i wont buy their firearms (cant remember what right now.)
im going to look up 38s and 9mm ballistics. i KNOW if i shot a .357 at something it would be done. i MIGHT consider a revolver and load it with 38s and a 357 or 2 as the last rounds in the cylinder. |
Posted By: ctchofday
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 7:43pm
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if Desert Eagle = Deagle then Baby Eagle = Beagle ? lol ------------- Xbl:PhantomReign97 
'99 Snpr II, ½d Karni, E-Orracle, 2k4 Spstk, 2k5 Prstk, PMR SE, A5, 98 |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 8:35pm
 ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: .636
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 10:04pm
Sorry but that's one of the most retarded things ive ever read. Why not just load it with ALL 38+p or ALL 357 +p Get a 40 S&W or 45ACP if you want a auto loading pistol... not a 9mm ------------- |
merc wrote:Posted By: ctchofday
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 10:15pm
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i know! get a Taurus Judge and some Shot Shells ------------- Xbl:PhantomReign97
'99 Snpr II, ½d Karni, E-Orracle, 2k4 Spstk, 2k5 Prstk, PMR SE, A5, 98 |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 10:30pm
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No, the Judge is a silly idea and best left for snakes and the like. The .410 isn't a powerful enough round. May as well just get a .45 Colt and use that round.
There is nothing wrong with a 9x19mm for a defence gun. IF a Glock doesn't fit your grip then definately don't get one. They are a bit of an acquired taste I'm afraid. There are a couple of new GLock frames on the market now that the (Patent?) has expired on them. Wolf make a nice one. Getting a gun that fits your hand and you can shoot well is a major advantage, it'll mean you can and will practice more. Personally I've never experienced this "Glock = block" thing people have going. The most comfortable gun I've ever held is a Sig 226/8 however I don't like the sight picture on one. Try for a police trade in one? Why wouldn't he sell you a gun at your mothers address? KBK |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 1:58am
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Do you live in a house house or a duplex/apartment style? If it is a house house then whatever, but if it is anything with connected walls with people you don't know, stick with lower caliber firearm, as far as pistols go. The last thing you want to do is kill your neighbor while getting robbed. |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 2:05am
What if you hate your neighbors? Then it's like 2 birds with one stone. |
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 2:11am
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Colt 1911
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 2:28am
i have a SW MP in .40. After close to a thousand rounds it hasnt jammed or misfired once. Also about KNOWING that a 357mag will drop a guy, dont be so sure. In one of my crim classes we watched a training video from some state where a trooper was in a gun fight with a suspect. the trooper hit the man with 5/6 shots from his .357 magnum revolver. when he stopped to reload, the man returned fire, killing the officer. |
Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 5:56am
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i have no idea why he wouldent sell it to me at that adress, maybe it was to make sure i wasent an out of state resident. im just gunna go back today and if he gives me **edited** im gunna say GF said "leave your address the same because your not owning a gun in my house, so i moved back in with mom"
the sigs were just a little to big, i had to rotate the gun out of position to hit the mag release, though i may have been holding the gun on the fat of my hand. sigs and FNs were slightly awkward, the 1911s were similer though i think if i put some slim grip panels on it then it wouldent be as bad, also an ambidextrous mag release is a must. the ruger p345 fit my hand well, the springfield XD fit well but the XDM was awful.(think it was the agressive checkering.) i had a hard time pushing the mag release on the glock when i rotated the gun out of position, gripped it with 2 hands, and pressed my thumb down on it. the comfortable gun overall was the baby eagle. i could drop the mag and the slide with my thumb without moving my hand or trying to over reach. only problem is they are next to impossible to find. il pick up the XD .40, maybe the 9mm but most things i have read have designated .40S&W as the smallest round for defense. you can shoot different rounds through a .357 mag revolver, if he was shooting a 357 that was hot with a JHP and hit someone 5/6 times center mass i doubt they would be able to get up. now if he was running 38 ball ammo and they were on heavy drugs or he missed, then hes probably still a threat. i think if you hit someone with a good 357 round in the chest it would simply knock them over... |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 8:18am
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Not really on the .357 hey. They are good rounds, but they generally require a 6" or longer barrel to achieve the velocities you see on most sites. In a carbine I'd say the .357 for sure, but a .357 Magnum out of a small revolvers? No.
I've seen people take a .44 Mag to the skull without even any skin damage, and I've seen people die from a .22. Shot placement over caliber any day of the week. About the smallest you should go for self defence is the .38Special or 9x19mm. At a push I'd include the 9x18mm Mak and maybe the 9x17mm Short. Maybe. The .40S&W is a good round. It produces good velocities (a 9x19mm trademark), it has good capacity (another bonus of the 9x19mm family) and it delivers a good amount of energy on target (the realm of the .45ACP). It is the best of both worlds. The .40S&W operates at around the same pressure as a 9x19mm, roughly 35 000 psi. A .45 operates at around .45ACP 21 000psi. There are recorded cases of .40 S&W cases failing, especially when they are in weapons scaled up from the 9mm variants. These leave semi dangerous gaps where the case isn't surrounded by lots and lots of steel. This means the case can rupture explosively. It has been known to happen most commonly with Glocks in .40, but not exclusively. However the .40 round is a good one. I don't understand your comment about the aggressive checkering on the XDM. Aggressive checkering is good for controlling recoil. It also helps control the weapon if your hands are wet. I also have trouble with the mag release on both the Glock and the 1911. However I have yet to be able to complete a reload on any weapon without having to reset my grip afterwards anyway. Ambi mag releases are good, and I like the Ruger/H&K styles, but there isn't any need for them. You can use your index finger to drop the mag if you are using the weapon in your weak hand. KBK |
Posted By: proteus316
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 8:33am
| Based off the calibers you're looking at you should get the .357 sig. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:03am
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THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT! ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 10:06am
XD 
XDM not sure if the frames are different or its just the checkering but i think the nubs on the XDM made the grip to wide. not sure what it was it just felt different. |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 10:15am
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merc, Corporal Coates was shot and killed after stopping a car for weaving in traffic on I-95 near the Georgia border. During the traffic stop the suspect began to struggle with Corporal Coates and they both fell to the ground. The suspect fired a .22 caliber handgun into Corporal Coates' chest, but the round was stopped by his vest. Corporal Coates was able to force the man off of him and return fire, striking the suspect five times in the chest with his .357 caliber revolver. As he retreated for cover and to radio for backup, the suspect fired another shot. The round struck Trooper Coates in the left armpit and traveled into his heart. The suspect survived the incident and was sentenced to life in prison. Corporal Coates had been with the South Carolina Highway patrol for 5 years. He was survived by his wife, two sons, parents, sister and brother. |
Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 10:34am
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that is a shame,
i try not to think about the situation and/or aftermath when reading stories like that. just the numbers. dident mean to come off as an ass but i see that it was kinda messed up. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 11:07am
Boondock Saints been on the base TV station recently there Bri? ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: .636
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 11:12am
GTFO The guy wants something that wont travel through the side of his house and halfway through his neighbors house. 357 sig over penetrates too much ------------- |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 2:21pm
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I don't know about the .357 Sig. There is plenty going for it. The only drawback I see is the limited training ammunition available for it.
I've always wanted one, but there is no market for it in South Africa. I've always liked the numbers for it. But I've never seen any overpenetration numbers for it. The Secret Service use it, and they've generally got damn good reasons not to have over penetrating rounds. The .357Sig does run at very high pressure (Around 40 000Psi. So caution should be taken when reloading and it can lead to rapid pistol wear. KBK |
Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:36pm
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Boo on the .357sig. Not for performance but for what Kayback said... availability of ammunition.
Don't get something you cannot afford to feed!!!!!! 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP. "Practice" rounds, in the form of Blazer Brass or Winchester WhiteBox, can be bought at Walmart for "cheap". Stick with one of those calibers. The more exotic you get, the more you're gonna pay for rounds, and the harder it's gonna be for you to find those rounds. Glad to see that you're taking the time to actually hold a good variety of makes and models. That's very important (to me). Go with what you're comfortable with. Not sure if your local dealers stock them, but if the IMI guns felt good to you, check out CZ. The Jericho is largely based off the CZ75 series. I have two 9x19 and one 9x18 CZ, and am very happy with them. In looking at the choices you've considered, I wouldn't recommend against any of them. (Edit to add) And on the topic of scatterguns... while I am very happy with my Mossberg 590, for actual HD use (and not just zombie defense), I'd have to concur with KBK again. I'd rather reach for my M1 Carbine with semi-jacketed hollowpoints. Easier to wield, easier to control, and likely easier on the eardrums. |
Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 11:28pm
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Like people have said, don't get a highly penetrating round. The police in my city mainly have 9mm ARs. They are worried about going through the houses. I'm pretty sure it's 9mm. I need to start reading up on this stuff more. My dad is a fanatic. He use to be a salesman and has some unique things. He's actually been the gun doctor for people and the police dept lately.
I do know he has a relatively small pistol and a shotgun on the mainlevel for defense. God help the robber if my dad is in the basement. ------------- 
hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives." |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 9:27am
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merc, consider your surrounding. If you use a pistol, chances are that you miss, the round goes through the walls into your neighbor's home and hits them. A shotgun, loaded with bird shot, is safer and will be stopped or slowed by the sheet rock and plywood. Buckshot will go through the sheet rock and plywood. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 10:21am
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I find it funny guys recommending .357's for home defense.
I mean sure, it would blow a huge hole in anyone you shot it at.
If you could hit them...
But, for most "home defense" its way too much gun for the job.
Kind of like saying I want my RPG in case someone breaks into my home. In most instances that you could find yourself in, you (or your wife) will need to defend themselves. The larger the caliper, the harder it is to control, and shoot. Meaning that you may miss, and die.
9mm is the best in my opinion for a bunch of reasons. First, you can afford to shoot it. The more the better, to work on your (and your spouses) accuracy. I also shoot my ruger mark 2 and mark 1 often as they are really inexpensive to shoot, and help with your accuracy. And a 22 caliper with hollow point bullets is nothing to mess with. I can put all 10 rounds into a 6 inch circle at 30 feet all day long.
The sound of a weapon discharging will typically mess with your head, and the perps head. The 357 shot inside a dark house, while your under duress and your adrenaline is pumping, can have the same effect as a stun grenade. Momentarily stunning the person firing it, as it is so loud and has such concussion, and kick. (I shot one yesterday). Even with my gun silence head gear it still shakes your body to the core. The second and third shots will have "pull" as you are expecting that huge kick again...
Which destroys your accuracy, unless you shoot alot, and are used to it... And really, if it is your wife that has to use it... Is that a good idea?
I'd go 9mm or 40. In my opinion 45 is too big for home defense, as well. You have to think about the likely hood that your rounds could hit someone else if you miss the target. My house was designed to give me shooting lanes, at all entrance points, that are far away from my kids bedrooms... Just in case something goes down. And my wife is one heck of a shot. (odds are she would be the one who would have to deal with an intruder, if you look at statistics). I keep guns in different strategic locations all over my house. And I don't like self defense guns with safety's.
Safety's get people killed. I never leave a round in the chamber, and my wife and I are trained to ratched a round into the chamber and be prepared to fire, on all of my guns.
I also want as many rounds as I can get. My 9mm holds 16... and I keep a loaded magazine in the holster so I would have 32 shots before having to grab my other magazines...
Most 357's are revolvers and they only hold 6 max. Typically 5...
16>5 anyday...
Your "perp" will probably be carrying a 9mm with tons of ammo... ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 10:32am
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FE, most perps have fled homes hearing the KLAK-KLAK of a 12 ga pump cycling. Pistol rounds fired within a home is not a great idea.... ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 10:38am
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I'm not discounting shotguns... I have a double barrel sawed off shotgun in my bedroom too...
Its just that most shotguns are limited to under 9 shots...
If I heard something in the night and jump up. I grab my 9mm S&W with 16 shots... ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 10:43am
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9 shots (Mossberg 590) from a scatter gun is devastating. I would not chance shooting anyone within my home with any one of my pistols. I have my kids and neighbors to worry about. too risky.
------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 10:47am
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If you need 16 shots, re-evaluate your shooting skills. The sound of a shotgun is enough to deter most criminals. -------------
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 10:53am
agreed. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 10:57am
The questions is...
How many criminals?
When you have a breakin, you just don't know... I'd rather have as many shots as possible.
When you play paintball, and the other team has 9 players, do you only take 9 paintballs?
Why assume a breakin only means 1 perp?...
Assumptions like that will kill you, and your family. ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 11:14am
never assume, always count on at least 2 breaking into a home, most thieves work alone or in teams of 2 when breaking into a home. they prefer stealth. Home invaders are usually 3 or more, stealth is not an issue. Hit and run, home invaders don't want a fire fight, most can't sustain a fight and don't want additional forces coming in behind them, like the police. I found (usually reading newspaper articles) most home invaders hit people for one of 3 reasons, drugs, money and guns. they pick and choose whom they are going to get and when. A good dog should be able to warn you when some one comes on to the property... ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 11:32am
If you need more than 9 shotgun shots to deter a home break in, revert back to Skillet's statement. Even someone carrying a 9mm will probably run away if the man in the dark house just shot a shotgun at them. Not to mentio I don't think you should be shooting at all, but that's a different argument. ------------- Que pasa? 
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 4:39pm
Actually 00 buckshot will penetrate 9 drywall sheets, birdshot around 2. A 9x19mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, .223 will penetrate over 12. Frangible .223's will penetrate around 8. Birdshot is not effective enough to be used as a self or home defence round. It is designed to knock small birds out of the sky, not drop humans. It will penetrate drywall the least, but it will also penetrate people the least. The multiple badguy scenario is one reason I prefer rifles over shotguns. I'm good with a shotgun. It is one weapon I can say I actually kick ass using. I can shoot it fantastically, and I'm good at manipulating it and I qualified higher with it than any other weapon I've ever qualified with. But still it is easier and quicker to manipulate a rifle, and it is faster to reload. In the same time it takes to reload ONE shell in a shotgun, you can have a full magaizne in any rifle, even an AK-style-mag one. Shotguns are fairly user friendly, but the main reason they fail is user error. Working a pump under stress isn't easy. Short stroking it and screwing up the loading are two of the easiest things to get wrong, and they can potentially render the weapon useless. You can't screw up a semi auto rifle. Pull the trigger. Repeat. There are other things that can fail on a semi auto rifle, but the user screwing up is not really one of them. F.E, there are a couple of .357 Magnums that have 8 shot cylinders. Like the Model 327. Heck there are some revolvers that have rails for lights and lasers. Why not. Revolvers have some tactical advantages. The loudest noise in the world is a CLICK when you were expecting a BANG. With most single action weapons you have to do a failure to fire drill. Tap rack bang. With a double action you can pull the trigger again dropping the hammer on the round again trying to get the primer to fire the second time. The revolver moves the suspect round out of the way and moves a fresh, brand new round under the hammer. This is very useful IMHO. Modern ammo doesn't fail often, but you don't want it cost you your life when it does. Tap Rack Bang drills are very very hard to do under stress. Infact MOST things are very very hard to do under stress. Tap Rack Bang drills need to be practiced until they are second nature. YOu must be able to do them without thinking about it, without worrying about it, and without messing it up. How much easier is it to just pull the trigger and have it do everything for you? 8 rounds on tap is the same as a single stack 1911 .45 and some single stack 9x19mms. And it was only two rounds shy of the old assault weapon ban. Racking the pump is meant to scare people. It might. I can't say. I also can't say I'd recognize the sound if I heard it. I'd prefer to rely on the verbal threat and a barrage of accurate controlable gunfire to stop the badguys than the sound of a shotgun being racked. KBK |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 4:59pm
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the racking of the slide has prevented some "ugly" things from happening to me. I will agree the birdshot is under powered, but if your target is in your home 8-10 feet from where you are standing, bird shot is going to hurt them bad, particularly 3 inch magnum turkey loads, if not turning the upper torso into a shredded mess. The reasons i use bird shot over buck in my home (other than not hitting any of my family or neighbors through the walls) is that my state does not have castle laws. If some one should attack me in my home, breaking in through the front door or back door, and I hit them what is dubbed a sporting round, it shows that I wasn't trying to kill the invader. Now, if they can get through the door, pass my dog and then to me, the cops would be informed, on the way, and clearly done in defense. yes, I practice quite often with my Mossberg 590. I really mean this too, I hope it never, ever comes down to me having to shoot some one in my home.
------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 5:34pm
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00 buck is a sporting round just as much as bird shot is...
if i ever get to the point where i feel threatened enough to reach for a firearm i will be fully prepared to use said firearm. if the situation changes then hopefully i wont have to use it. but i will not rely on scary sounds and bird shot. i can scare a lot of people just by saying i have a gun. if i have to use it i want to know i will eliminate any threat FAST. ive played around with bird shot before... i know for a fact that it will only penetrate one side of a slim fast can (hardly dents the back) if someone was wearing a heavy jacket and you shot them in the chest with bird shot i doubt it would incapacitate them... heck they might not even flinch... that being said i like the XD, im gunna check out the XDM again and because my tax checks comming in the next few days (1700$) im gunna check out some HK, the double stack was a little big but an HK45 or USP compact with a single stack fit my hand. they have a life time warranty for original owner and a barrel thats advertised good for 10,000 shots. |
Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 6:48pm
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Not sure why a .357 is considered overkill, nor any reason to think a wheel gun would be ineffective. Just because it has "Magnum" at the end doesn't mean it's going to blow people off their feet or shoot through schools </JohnnyDangerouslyQuote>
Will say that birdshot is for birds and clays. If you want to stop a man, that's not the round to use (ask Cheney). Even at short distance, I'd never use birdshot in a defensive situation, unless it was the only thing I had. And while it's the the load I have most of in the cache, slugs, 00 and No4 buck are what lie in my sidesaddles. Let us know what you think of the HKs. HK is obviously a great company and they put out excellent products. Personally, I think they're overpriced, and for the money you could easily get something else and have cash left over for more ammo/mags/accessories. 
Don't forget the ammo/mags/accessories bit when determining your budget. It will add up a sizable chunk of cash, I assure you! As well as funds for more range time! Gotta get that practice in! |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 6:49pm
me too. imagine the mess! |
Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 7:03pm
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the HKs i fondled were felt good but they had trigger locks at the place i went to and it blocked the mag release.
USP compacts are only like 850, high end full sized are 1200. figure a med/high end 1911 is about that. mags will be more expensive but once i have 3 or 4 (+2) il be good. then pick up a 1911 later for plinking. i dont know what im gunna do yet, deff need to handle a few more, and the ones i have a few more times. i know whatever i get il want something else (happened with paintball untill i ended up with 30 and wanted firearms) |
Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 7:04pm
i would sue the family/estate for new carpets and as a slap to the face ammo used to shoot intruder... |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 7:15pm
I carry a USP .40, you can get them for 600-700 dollars if you try. They're fantastic handguns that are deadly accurate right out of the box, however...
You can get the same performance from a glock for almost half the price. Glocks are amazing performers, you can find laser sights and whatnot cheap for them, they're everywhere, they're light, and they're available in an incredibly wide array of ammunition. So I'd say Glock > USP just for affordability.
That being said, a good double barrel coach gun, which is basically a shortened version of a normal double barrel shot gun, in 12 or 20 guage will do all you need. Two shots, and you don't deal with the same level of penetration as a pistol round.
I only skimmed through the past few pages and didn't find your answer to this question, but if you live in space with close neighbors I'd go with a good shotgun. You can get a coach double barrel at Academy around for about 300 bucks, or you can get a decent Mossberg or Remington from 200-500 depending on what options you want.
If you don't live in a crowded area, and you want a pistol, bear in mind the automatics are strange beasts. While most modern day automatics are built well, and shoot well, everybody has their own personal brand that shoots best. For instance Berettas are amazingly accurate pistols, I just can't hit the broad side of a barn with them. My dad was an officer and swears by them, but can't hit jack with a 1911, I'm pretty decent with 1911's.
Another thing to consider with an automatic is trigger pull. Some DOA pistols have horrendous trigger pulls, which is something that I personally don't want to have to account for if my life is in danger. Glocks, XD's, and pistols that can be cocked such as a USP, Beretta, or 1911 give you a much lighter trigger option, therefore faster response.
Of course with a pump or double barrel shotgun you just point and shoot, and there are far less variables like jams, sighting, and trigger pull put into the equation. ------------- 
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 7:19pm
So will assuming you're being broken into, then shooting your fat son stealing ham from the fridge. |
Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 8:11pm
Choop, time to stop ham-snacking under cover of darkness... ------------- 
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 8:21pm
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First pistol I had was a S&W909. Small 9mm that was very comfortable. Great to learn with. I moved up to a Glock 17 9mm. Loved that gun. Kept it for years. I purchased a Glock 23 .40 cal three years ago. I use the Glock 22 at work and liked it very much. I opted for the 23 because it was smaller and easier to carry concealed. I looked at the 27 but that was just way too small and didn't feel comfortable in my hand.
Couple of weeks ago I had the chance to fire both my buddy's Kimber 1911s. Never fired a .45 before and I was expecting the worst. It didn't kick any worse than my Glock. Heck, probably kicked less. Beautiful pistols. Nice accuracy. Only problem is, I can buy almost two-and-a-half Glocks for the same money. -------------
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 8:30pm
You best be joking. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 4:27am
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The "shoot your son eating ham" scenario is why you MUST have a light. Either on your gun, or at hand. Target identification for the win.
Also you don't just blaze away. Identify your target, challenge it verbally, then blast it when it doesn't respond to commands. 00 might also be a game round, but it is designed to kill game that's closer to a mans size and weight than a 2lbs quail. True you can get some slightly harder hitting rounds like steel shot and stuff, but why not get some 00 anyway? If you are going to tailor select some birdshot simply to improve it's penetration, get rounds that penetrate. Shooting to wound is NOT a good idea. Especially if there is no castle doctrine. Using a firearm, heck brandishing a firearm is considered lethal force in many many places. Legally it is very dodgy to shoot someone and claim you weren't trying to kill them. If you weren't trying to kill them, why were you using lethal force? It gets even dodgier when you shoot them with your "not to kill them sporting rounds" and you kill them. If you are wanting honest to goodness less-lethal shotgun, don't use birdshot. But baton rounds or bean bags, or hell, the new Tazer 12 guage rounds. 
You can always stoke the gun with less than lethal, and have a couple of real rounds in the sidesaddle. Some people here keep talking about how you can point and squirt a shotgun. Shotguns are guns. They require just as much practice, and just as much skill to use as well as any other weapon. Like I said in my other post, shotguns are easy to jam if you don't train to use it properly. Hell they developed the South African Neostead shotgun. Push pull is less easy to jam up than traditional pull push. To aim with a shotgun you need a good solid cheek weld, because that is the rear sight. The bead front sight only works if you've got it held properly, otherwise parallax is going to mess your shot up. You need to aim with a shotgun because while they spread, but don't spread much. You can expect about 3 inches of spread at 12 feet. Heck with a good shotgun you can place 75% of the shot inside a torso sized target at 25 yards. That isn't much spread. At indoor ranges, if you miss, you are gonna miss with all the shot, you probably aren't going to "recover" with some spread. I do tend to dislike shotguns for the opposite reason. I can't guarantee the shot is all going to hit the target, even with minimal spread. And there is still the wad to worry about. But scatterguns still don't really scatter. Besides, aiming properly will mean less misses, and less worry about penetration problems. I know I am arguing both sides of the same coin here, but I am. Shotguns aren't "scatter" enough to recover your mistakes if you are totally skilless, but they are too "scatter" if you want and require total precision. I suppose they do fit the average user's requirements in that case. Way to talk yourself into a corner Kayback. Personally with lethal force I'll take total precision thanks. With the dangers to others and the legalities around shooting, I'll take single rounds that impact exactly where I want them to. Trigger control is just as important with a shotgun. It is less important with a shoulder fired weapon than a pistol, but still important. With any weapon system you have to remember, practice practice practice. And you have to keep practicing to keep your hand in. I'll back what StratoAxe said. You want to shoot lots of guns to find one that makes you happy. I'm also a crap shot with a Beretta 92. Our issue weapons were Vektor Z-88's. They were license made in South Africa. And I can barely manage to qualify with them. I can shoot my Glock about a hundred times better. I can shoot my 1911 much much better as well. I shoot the Beretta barely acceptably. I like the H&K series, and happen to shoot them well. I don't see much attraction to their compact series. Especially in .45. You can get a smaller, thinner, easier to conceal 1911, which holds the same number of rounds. But they are good weapons, if you choose the right setup they can have the ambi controls like you want, and they are reliable. They are expensive, but reliable. KBK |
Posted By: CarbineKid
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 9:12am
IMHO stay away from the single action 1911. They are great guns but not really the ideal gun for a high stressed self defense situation. I feel taht way aabout all single action pistols. Again this is just my opinion based on some fact but if your looking at the H&K I would suggest the LEM trigger. I know the P2000 has it. I own the gun and its my favorite. I'm not sure if the P30 or the new 45 has it. The guys over at hkpro.com would know. Oh and whoever said you don't need 16 rounds has NO clue as to what hes talking about. A pistol is pretty anemic as far as stopping power goes...you shoot until the threat stops that could take 1 shot or 15..who knows. |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 6:18pm
There's a funny double edged sword to double action guns. In theory the faster you can shoot, the less threat you stand. But in reality sometimes the faster you shoot the more of a mistake you make. It's my opinion that if you need the extra half a second it takes to pull the hammer back on a 1911, you're probably not gonna have the upper hand anyway.
In fact, I'll go a step farther and say if it takes you long enough to pull the hammer in order to engage someone with a weapon, you are completely untrained and probably unfit to be using said weapon.
I love these threads just for the fact that so much "what if" comes up when it comes to self-defense. The fact of the matter is if you plan on keeping a weapon for self defense, you have to learn to make time to indentify a target. Just like a couple of people have already mentioned, lots of innocent loved ones / friends have been killed by someone who was "quick on the draw".
My dad used to tell me to leave all of my guns in my house unchambered-that way if I woke up in the night and felt the need to use the weapon, the time I took to chamber the round would give me ample time to be clear on my target.
It's my recommendation to take a good shooting course if you're a first time handgun buyer. All these theories if "gotta have this many bullets", or "gotta be able to shoot this fast" are dangerous. Having a tactical weapon with no training is like having a Viper for your first car. It's an accident waiting to happen.
Just because a weapon is made to get the job done, doesn't mean you're the right person for the job.
As far as the capacity goes, I can honestly say I can name off very few people who can keep a tight shot pattern in a panic'd situation. For the average shooter, much less someone who rarely if ever shoots, every shot after the first couple are going to be anti aircraft rounds, or if you're in a crowded area, they're going to be flying through an apartment complex into someone's living room.
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Posted By: DaveEllis
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 6:33pm
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Throwing in my .02. If someone is in my castle and I intend to use the shotgun, they are not getting the advantage of my position with the rack. They can figure that out with the bang. No lawyer is going to analyze the ammo you used to shoot their client, who most likely was going back to school and turning their life around when you shot them while they were in your house at 3 am. If you are going to use lethal force, its going to be viewed as lethal force. #4 Buck will do well too in the whole bad guy killing thing as 00 buck. |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 3:36am
| apparently last night 3 guys broke into a home in my hometown, at least one with a gun. the resident shot the guy he saw with a gun in the leg. his accomplices were trying to get him in the car when the resident came outside with his assault rifle. the guys freaked, dropped their buddy and as they tried to get away ran over the shot guy twice. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 4:11am
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And that is called Karma.
KBK |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:28am
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Never use a 9mm for any sort of self defense. ------------- 
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:52am
Dur!
Yeah, 60 percent of Police forces have no clue...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/35253 - http://www.newsweek.com/id/35253
"About 60 percent of the firearms in use by police are 9mms, many of them Glocks, whose relatively lightweight part-plastic bodies make them a good choice for someone who has to carry one around all day. The changeover began after a notorious 1986 shoot-out in Miami between three carloads of FBI agents and two heavily armed robbery suspects. Two agents (as well as the suspects) were killed, leading to a demand for more firepower for officers, who still typically carried the venerable .38-caliber Police Special. Those hold six bullets in a rotating cylinder that when empty has to be reloaded manually, one round at a time. A 9mm holds 10, 15 or even more bullets in a magazine that can be swapped out in two quick motions, although it takes considerable practice to do it smoothly. " ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:54am
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Cops in NY (well, in Suffolk county anyway) have a choice between .40 cal and 9mm.
------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:06pm
I'm quite comfortable with my 9x19, thank you very much. 
If I were limited to FMJs like Mil, then yeah, I'd want something else. Since I am not limited to FMJs and can use my choice of several modern JHPs with excellent performance (or the new Steel Hawk incendiary rounds - ref: stratoaxe post) I don't think twice about 9x19 for carry or HD. (My defense load is 124gr Gold Dot +Ps) Now, it might not be as manly as say, Evil Elvis' choice of defensive/carry round (500 S&W Magnum)... but I can tell you right now, I won't be hitting squat with a 500. I can hit stuff with the 9x19, and that's what is most important! I can also afford more practice/range time with it vs another load, like 40S&W. Simply put, a larger bore isn't gonna magically create a more effective platform for me. I do have a couple 1911s, and once I get my 3.5" working right, it might become a carry piece...so 45ACP may be on the table at a later date. But in the meantime, 9x19 does the job, and I'm in no hurry to replace it. If it gets replaced at all. |
Posted By: pepprdog
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:33pm
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HOw it fits and feels in your hand is more important than anything no matter what the caliber. Being able to handle the recoil is another major factor. Best choice is the biggest caliber that you can handle effectively and are confident with in a confrontation situation. In a concealed carry situation you have to consider the "concealing" part too. Personal choice is by far the biggest consideration no matter the size of the bullet.
ANYTHING is better than nothing. More people in America are killed by the little .22 than any caliber..........last time i checked. -------------  NRA Certified;Range Safety officer NRA Certified Instructor: Basic Pistol-Home Firearm Safety-Ohio Concealed Carry "Refu |
Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 11:11pm
| Where the hell did you come from pepper? |