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On the subject of police arrest warrants....

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Topic: On the subject of police arrest warrants....
Posted By: God
Subject: On the subject of police arrest warrants....
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:40am
Since this forum has some aspiring, current, and retired law enforcement officers and legal professionals, I thought this would be a fun exercise to find out everyone's two cents.

So this morning, at six am, the local sheriff served an arrest warrant on a neighbor, whose property is directly behind mine. In the Sheriff's departments attempt to surround the neighbors property, two officers entered my backyard and used a ladder to look over my back wall into the neighbor's property. In their rush to surround the neighbor's property, the officers caused damage to a wood fence, on my property that allows access into my backyard. Also, my less than 3 month old German Sheppard puppy was allowed to escape my property.

So here is the point of this post. The officers chose to set their momentary stakeout, on my property, to ensure the suspect would not escape out the back, instead of going around the neighbors property and setting up there. What is the legal justification and/or procedure that allows this? Was this legal entry onto my property? Who is responsible for the damage? Does a citizen have to right to block law enforcement from entering their property in this circumstance? While serving an arrest warrant, what allows law enforcement the right to enter a non-suspect's property and cause damage while serving a warrant?

I have searched the interwebs for clarification and have only come across the principle of exigent circumstance to justify the officer's actions but that principle seems to apply in reaction to the arrestee's actions, not as a proactive, stakeout tool.




Replies:
Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:45am
Cops can do whatever they want. Good luck getting anything out of them.

Like the one who pulled me over on the way to work yesterday for an "out" headlight. Upon further inspection, my light was just fine.
Not to hijack your thread or anything.

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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Bunkered Bunkered wrote:

Cops can do whatever they want. .



Yeah......no. There lies the problem. They think they can,


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Que pasa?




Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:51am
I guess that is more accurate.


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Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:54am
Its a good thing that God didnt grab his loaded shotgun from under the bed and while still groggy and start blasting away at the figures dressed in their tactile/heavily armored outfits and carrying loaded assault rifles, who did not identify that they were law enforcement officers.



But seriously, I am curious to get some thoughts, regarding the above post.

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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:54am
They should have asked you if they can enter your property. There are some cases that allow cops to enter properties while chasing fleeing criminals, but not before, without permission.

Granting permission sometimes means you take responsibility for any damages. Not always, but sometimes. If they entered without your permission, they are responsible for the damages.



Posted By: God
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 11:05am
They were not granted permission to enter the property. I was only notified of their presence when the above mentioned dog barked at them before escaping the property.The officers pre-planned their method of using my backyard as an observation post since they brought their own ladder to stand on to do their observing over my back wall.


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 11:16am
Unless you have "no trespassing signs" you are out of luck in most states...

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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 11:30am
I believe you have recourse.  Unfortunately you may need to consult an attorney to get anywhere.

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Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 11:43am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Unless you have "no trespassing signs" you are out of luck in most states...


my neighbor had an issue with that here in NY. some kids claimed she said they could use her pool (i wasn't there so i have no idea) and she claimed that she didn't (she was a little 'out of it' constantly) and called the cops, and they said they had no proof either way, and if she had no trespassing signs up, it would be a different story.

as for the cops though, i have no idea how it would play out.


Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 11:59am
Surely the whole definition of private property precludes the need for no trespassing signs?

I know where I live no trespassing signs are just for reinforcement. You need right of admission reserved signs for public places if you want to restrict access.


Posted By: *Stealth*
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 12:08pm
I know in Michigan, that typically - if there are not any visible N.T. signs, where the property was entered - than you're pretty much in the clear. This is especially true of woods and farmland and such. Which is why you generally see entire properties posted.  

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WHO says eating pork is safe, but Mexicans have even cut back on their beloved greasy pork tacos. - MSNBC on the Swine Flu


Posted By: God
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 12:11pm
Let me be clear. My property is located in a residential neighborhood in a populated city in Los Angeles County, CA. I am not in a rural area where property lines cannot be easily discerned. My property is surrounded by 3, 7 to 8 foot cinder block walls and two wooden fences. The backyard is separated into different sections with chain link fences.


Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 12:14pm
I assumed as much, cos of the walls and because you can see the badguy's house from your wall.....


Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 12:19pm
Just a tad out of my area, but I'll throw in some guesses anyway...
 
You say "your" property.  Is this a house you own?  Or a house you rent, or an apartment building?
 
The cops looked over your back wall, but how did they get in?  Is the yard fully fenced/enclosed?
 
Trespassing signage isn't generally required to establish trespassing if there are other obvious indicia of private property - such as a fence or wall.  If this is LA residential, I am thinking it is pretty hard to claim that the cops didn't know it was private property they were on.
 
On the other hand, California has specific statutes for criminal trespassing (not all states do) - see California Penal Code 602 - and signage plays a role in the enforcement of this statute.  But that is criminal trespass, and I don't think you are looking to press criminal charges against the cops.  Civil trespass is a different matter.
 
Assuming that the property is obviously private, and assuming that the officers were not granted permission to enter by the owner of the property (you or whoever), then they were trespassing unless they qualify as "licensees."  A licensee is somebody who has a legal right to enter the property.  Meter readers, for instance, as licensees, as are police officers serving a warrant - but that license extends only to the property where the warrant will be served.
 
But in general, police are granted broad rights of license over property.  They can obviously pursue, and in many other instances can also enter private property without permission.  I suspect that some research would reveal a significant body of law in California specifically on the licensee rights of police officers.  I have not done that research, and have no idea what the specific rules are.  My guess, however, is that these guys were not trespassing.
 
But - as fun as it is to discuss the law of trespassing, it isn't necessarily that relevant to your question here.
 
Trespass gives rise to its own claim - you can take action against a trespasser simply for trespassing.  I am thinking that here you are more concerned about the damage to your property and the loss of a pet.  Both of those were the result of simple negligence, which gives rise to claims for damages all by itself.  If somebody comes into your yard and damages your fence, you can sue them regardless of whether they are trespassers, licensees, or invitees.
 
Now, the problem here is that these were on-duty police officers, which makes them agents of the state (or town/county, whatever), which means that you would be suing the state.  And, in general, you cannot sue the government - sovereign immunity and all that.  The various governments have enacted laws that allow them to get sued for some things some times, and this may or may not fall within the permitted claims.  Hard to say.  But suing a governmental entity is not for the meek under any circumstance.
 
The good news, however, is that there is generally an administrative procedure for this type of thing.  Cops cause a lot of incidental damage to things, and the PDs are usually pretty good about paying for damage.  Not sure about the dog, but pretty good chance they will cover the fence.
 
So call the PD, and explain the situation in as much detail as possible.  Take pictures right away, and if you are feeling particularly anal, interview some witnesses and record/write down statements.
 
Most likely, the PD will want you to fill out some forms, and then you will get money in a few months.  Probably less than you wanted, but money none-the-less.
 
If that doesn't work, then it is time for citizen letters.  Start writing the PD, copying everybody in existence:  Newspapers, watchdog groups, the mayor's office, your state rep, your congressman, etc...  Keep writing letters every two weeks until you get action, and keep careful records of everything that does or does not happen.
 
You could, of course, also call a lawyer, but this is too small for a contingent fee arrangement, and you don't want to spend the money for hourly fees.
 
But you should be able to resolve this yourself to a reasonable conclusion.  It will be a PITA, but might also be an interesting learning experience.
 
 
 
EDIT - just saw the latest post with property update.  Modify my response accordingly.


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"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?


Posted By: God
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 12:21pm
That extra bit of info was for the sake of the "No Trespassers" sign folks. Tongue Although, I am not finding to much relevant info on the interwebs regarding that topic.

I tend to agree with you, Kayback regarding the presumed, "No trespassing"  since it is obviously private property. Otherwise I could in theory go burgle all my neighbors that dont have the sign posted all over their house.


Posted By: God
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 12:50pm
Just for entertainment sake, for those interested.

To gain entry into my back yard, the officers broke off a panel of wood on my front exterior fence that held the latch that normally opens the gate. Since the panel with the latch was removed, the gate then easily swung open, allowing the officers to enter my back yard. Next the officers had to pass the vehicle that I park behind said gate/fence on the side of the house while carrying their ladder. Next they encountered another chain link fence which they seem to have correctly opened, (surprisingly) in a normal fashion while faced with my barking puppy. In their rush to peep over my back wall, inside my back yard, they left both gates open and the dog decided to go for a walk by itself.

While the damage to the fence is probably the cost of one wood plank, a replacement latch, and some screws, I just fixed that fence less than six months ago. In addition, I was able to to find the puppy after a quick drive around the neighborhood.

While I generally respect peace officers,  it would have been nice for these two, to have knocked on my front door, or even the back door, (since they were back there anyway) and apologized for, or at least mentioned, that they broke my fence and let my dog loose. Had I not gotten out of bed and investigated the noises, I would have been unaware the dog had escaped and could have lost her forever.


Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 1:17pm
Like I said, they should have asked. It's what we were trained to do. Heck I've seen some cops on search and seizure's dismantle a gate, and then re build it afterwards (taking pictures on digital cameras before and after) to avoid destroying private property.

Obviously that wasn't on a high risk warrant, and the warrant didn't cover damage to the surrounding fence....

I'm phone and complain. If not so much to get some $$ just to let the guy in charge know his cops aren't doing things quite right. Some cops DO think they are the law. (And I will deny this if anyone quotes it, but...) Some cops do need a good talking to to remind them they are there for the community.

KBK


Posted By: ¤ Råp¡Ð F¡rè ¤
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 1:55pm
Was this legal entry onto my property? Yes
Who is responsible for the damage? The department
Does a citizen have to right to block law enforcement from entering their property in this circumstance? No


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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 2:15pm
Did you talk/make contact with them afterward or at all?

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irc.esper.net
#paintball


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by ¤ Råp¡Ð F¡rè ¤ ¤ Råp¡Ð F¡rè ¤ wrote:


Does a citizen have to right to block law enforcement from entering their property in this circumstance? No


Truth, I think this would qualify as 'obstruction of justice' and get you in a sling.

In fact, I don't think you can block any emergency services from property usage in an emergency. I can't tell you how many times we've violated 'no trespassing' signs on a fire scene, and there isn't much that the landowner can do about it either.

Property damage might be a different story. I'm fairly certain that we'd be responsible for any damages that we cause.



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Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 3:43pm
More importantly, did you track down the puppy?

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hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives."


Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by MeanMan MeanMan wrote:

More importantly, did you track down the puppy?
He said he found it.


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irc.esper.net
#paintball


Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 6:22pm
Oh please let Linus show up, please please. 


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Oh please let Linus show up, please please. 


That's right, what's a thread about law enforcement without the favorite whipping boy?


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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 6:47pm
A police department in Michigan had to pay up for house damages when they forcibly entered a home with a warrant that happened to be the wrong address.  Destroyed doors and furniture and terrorized the family.  I wasn't clear if the address on the warrant was wrong or it wasn't read correctly.  From what I heard, all damages were paid for plus a hefty out-of-court settlement.

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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by StormyKnight StormyKnight wrote:

A police department in Michigan had to pay up for house damages when they forcibly entered a home with a warrant that happened to be the wrong address.  Destroyed doors and furniture and terrorized the family.  I wasn't clear if the address on the warrant was wrong or it wasn't read correctly.  From what I heard, all damages were paid for plus a hefty out-of-court settlement.


Totally different situation.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:07pm
Per whales request, I am here.


Originally posted by God God wrote:

What is the legal justification and/or procedure that allows this?

Protection of society, self preservation, not notifying the arrestee of their presence, denying an escape route to the arrestee.

Quote Was this legal entry onto my property?
Seeing as it was incident to an arrest, and they weren't searching your property, then yes.


Quote Who is responsible for the damage?
Usually, the city where you live.

Quote Does a citizen have to right to block law enforcement from entering their property in this circumstance?
Since it was a lawful thing they were doing, no a citizen does not, otherwise it would be interfering with law enforcement personnel.

Quote While serving an arrest warrant, what allows law enforcement the right to enter a non-suspect's property and cause damage while serving a warrant?
It wasn't a search or seizure of your property, therefor they are allowed on your property. Same reason as if they were actively chasing a suspect through your yard.

BUT, nothing "allows" them to cause damage. Mistakes happen.




Since they weren't searching or seizing any of your property, they need not have a warrant to be in your yard.

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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Since they weren't searching or seizing any of your property, they need not have a warrant to be in your yard.


That is, for lack of a better term, silly.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Since they weren't searching or seizing any of your property, they need not have a warrant to be in your yard.


That is, for lack of a better term, silly.


Why? if the usage of your property is going to be assisting them in a pursuit of a criminal.....how is it silly that they don't need a warrant?

Lets say a high speed chase ends in the suspect getting out of the car and is running on foot.....should the chase be abandoned because the police don't have a warrant for each piece of property that they'd be chasing the suspect through?

THAT....is silly.

By that logic, a warrant or permit must be obtained by an EMT before they can pull into your driveway, and the fire department needs a warrant or permit to use your yard to run hose through to keep your neighbor's house from burning down.




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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by StormyKnight StormyKnight wrote:

A police department in Michigan had to pay up for house damages when they forcibly entered a home with a warrant that happened to be the wrong address.  Destroyed doors and furniture and terrorized the family.  I wasn't clear if the address on the warrant was wrong or it wasn't read correctly.  From what I heard, all damages were paid for plus a hefty out-of-court settlement.


Totally different situation.
True.  But even if they got the right house I think the Police, city or whatever municipality should pay damages.  I don't believe a warrant is a license to destroy/damage property with impunity.


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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 08 April 2009 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Since they weren't searching or seizing any of your property, they need not have a warrant to be in your yard.


That is, for lack of a better term, silly.


Why? if the usage of your property is going to be assisting them in a pursuit of a criminal.....how is it silly that they don't need a warrant?

Lets say a high speed chase ends in the suspect getting out of the car and is running on foot.....should the chase be abandoned because the police don't have a warrant for each piece of property that they'd be chasing the suspect through?

THAT....is silly.

By that logic, a warrant or permit must be obtained by an EMT before they can pull into your driveway, and the fire department needs a warrant or permit to use your yard to run hose through to keep your neighbor's house from burning down.


Thumbs up for taking my comment out of context.

Thumbs Up


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 12:09am
Are you pissed off because they entered your property?
 
Or pissed off that they broke your fence/ puppy got loose?


Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 12:55am
I think it is fairly clear he is annoyed because of the property damage and the loose pet. He only asked about the legalities of them entering his property, but he is complaining about the damage.

KBK


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 6:38am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Since they weren't searching or seizing any of your property, they need not have a warrant to be in your yard.


That is, for lack of a better term, silly.


Why? if the usage of your property is going to be assisting them in a pursuit of a criminal.....how is it silly that they don't need a warrant?

Lets say a high speed chase ends in the suspect getting out of the car and is running on foot.....should the chase be abandoned because the police don't have a warrant for each piece of property that they'd be chasing the suspect through?

THAT....is silly.

By that logic, a warrant or permit must be obtained by an EMT before they can pull into your driveway, and the fire department needs a warrant or permit to use your yard to run hose through to keep your neighbor's house from burning down.


Thumbs up for taking my comment out of context.

Thumbs Up


Out of context? Really? Explain to me what you meant then because it seemed pretty straight forward to me. If I missed something cleverly subtle, I'll apologize, but I'm pretty sure I didn't.


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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 8:49am
This wasn't the same as any of those situations.  They weren't forced to enter his property by the immediacy of the situation.

It's silly that their logic for this (or, at least by Linus's reasoning) is "I don't need a warrant because I'm not charging you with a crime".

Also, someone's pissy.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 9:10am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

This wasn't the same as any of those situations.  They weren't forced to enter his property by the immediacy of the situation.

It's silly that their logic for this (or, at least by Linus's reasoning) is "I don't need a warrant because I'm not charging you with a crime".

Also, someone's pissy.


Its not the same? Sure it is. They're using your property to protect public welfare. The logic that you submitted would have to apply for EMTs and firefighters as well. They'd be using your property, to protect public welfare. The color of the uniform of the specifics of the situation don't really matter much. Someone who doesn't own the property is using it for good reason. You essentially said that this should require a warrant. I say that's insane.

"Linus's reasoning" is actually common sense. The police, whom we (generally) hire to protect us from crime need to cut through your back yard to catch a suspect. Why in the name of St. Swithen should they need a warrant to cross your yard or hop your fence to do their job- A job which could ultimately benefit YOU, the same guy that wants to chase them off because they don't have the right paperwork.

If they want to search or seize your property- then yes, a warrant should be needed. But to cross my yard to catch a guy who could possibly be a criminal? Have at it boys. HOWEVER: Yes, they should be responsivle for any damages to the property that are caused through their usage.

the caveat "Immediacy of the situation" almost saves you, but not quite. Okay, fire and EMS are generally responding to something 'in the now' while law enforcement might sometimes be setting up a trap or something along those lines. But they're still using or crossing your property- and should very well be allowed to if it will help them apprehend someone who could end up being a detriment to society.

I'm not pissy. I wasn't when I wrote that either, so you're wrong on two counts- your content and your assumption.




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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 9:27am
Also, cops can bust into your house anytime they want. Without a warrant.

All it means is the entry is illegal, and any evidence they find of a crime in inadmissable.

They can also be prosecuted criminally if they do that.





Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 9:34am
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

Also, cops can bust into your house anytime they want. Without a warrant.

All it means is the entry is illegal, and any evidence they find of a crime in inadmissable.

They can also be prosecuted criminally if they do that.





If their entry is necessary for the protection of myself or my family through the apprehension of a suspect- I'll hold the door open for them. I might be singing a different tune if I was the one in bracelets of course, but I'd be wrong.



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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 10:27am
Yeah, Linus said something that I don't disagree with entirely. The universe is in harmony.

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irc.esper.net
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

the caveat "Immediacy of the situation" almost saves you, but not quite. Okay, fire and EMS are generally responding to something 'in the now' while law enforcement might sometimes be setting up a trap or something along those lines. But they're still using or crossing your property- and should very well be allowed to if it will help them apprehend someone who could end up being a detriment to society.


So, you're saying that, simply because they're law enforcement personnel, they can enter my property whenever they want, provided it is "in the line of duty", or some-such?

That's silly.

There are reasons it's called "private property".  When you call the cops, EMS, fire, etc, you expect them to come on your property.

When they're coming onto your property without the least warning, that's no better than breaking and entering. 

Furthermore, what if the person who they were pursuing had a weapon?  More than likely, the first knowledge the neighborhood had that a police raid was going down would be the firefight that ensued.  If it's so important they come into my backyard to "protect me", surely they should tell me about it, rather than putting me at risk of catching a stray bullet.

Considering I've seen cops serve exactly this kind of thing in my neighborhood without having to come on my property (note: my bet is that my yard is much larger than God's), I don't think this is too much to ask.  That said, I also think the cops in my town spend more time being nice to citizens than doing their jobs, like LAPD.

Quote I'm not pissy. I wasn't when I wrote that either, so you're wrong on two counts- your content and your assumption.


Alright. Wink


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:40am
There might not be time to tell you about the danger.

Remember, unless it is in public view, anything the cops see while they are chasing someone else onto your property is inadmissable in court. Unless they see you in the process of committing another crime that is a danger to others (IE rape, murder, assault)

KBK


Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:52am
ParielIsBack, Thumbs Up for substituting your own reality because you dont understand the law!


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:56am
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

There might not be time to tell you about the danger.

Remember, unless it is in public view, anything the cops see while they are chasing someone else onto your property is inadmissable in court. Unless they see you in the process of committing another crime that is a danger to others (IE rape, murder, assault)

KBK


Who were the chasing here?!?!?

I agree completely if they're chasing someone through your neighborhood -- don't get me wrong.

But they literally took the time to set up behind his house without letting him know.

That's silly.

Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

ParielIsBack, Thumbs Up for substituting your own reality because you dont understand the law!


So, since it's the law, clearly it's right?

Yeah.  I'll buy that.

Ever hear of Jim Crow?


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 12:04pm
How do the police know that by telling you what they were about to do that you wouldn't inform the neighbor out of some sort of loyalty? Pretty sure in most instances, it would be against department policy to let everyone know that they were going to be surrounding and apprehending a suspect. Element of surprise anyone?


Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 12:17pm
The way we got taught to operate was an officer would either go evacuate the house, or he'd go warn them, and then stay with them. Both to protect them if needed, and to watch them. If nothing else they should tell you the dog got loose.


Pariel, read carefully. I'm agreeing with you. I said these guys should have let him know, and in "hot persuit" there might not be time. Exactly what you are trying to say.



Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

How do the police know that by telling you what they were about to do that you wouldn't inform the neighbor out of some sort of loyalty? Pretty sure in most instances, it would be against department policy to let everyone know that they were going to be surrounding and apprehending a suspect. Element of surprise anyone?


I agree, that can be a factor, but I think there's a pretty easy way to solve it.

Add 1 cop to the unit sent to the house, he knocks on doors when everyone's in place/as the team is getting in place.

I've never lived in LA, but I know dealing with crime in that environment is far different from anything I'm used to, in Boston or NJ.

But I don't think that means cops should be jerks because they can.  It makes them look bad, it makes the department look bad, and it didn't appear to get them any further than knocking on God's door would have.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: God
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

The way we got taught to operate was an officer would either go evacuate the house, or he'd go warn them, and then stay with them. Both to protect them if needed, and to watch them. If nothing else they should tell you the dog got loose.


See, I agree here. At a minimum the officers should have at least (after the arrest was completed), mentioned the damage to the gate and admit to having let the puppy loose.

Also would not it have been better, for their safety, to announce their presence on my property, so that I don't mistake them as a threat?

The amount to repair the damage to the fence is probably around 20 bucks and my time to fix it and the puppy was, luckily, found running loose through the neighborhood, but none the less I filled a complaint with the LASD. Most likely nothing further will come of this but it has lead to an interesting discussion. I also would hope that whomever reads the complaint has the authority to have the Sheriff Department revive their policies and community relations in the areas related to this incident.

As for the legality of their un-authorized entry onto the property, I am was merely looking for the possible justification/ un-justification discussion that is taking place.

Would anyone's answer be any different, if, instead of the backyard being commandeered for the setting of the perimeter, the officers used a crowbar to pry open my front door, barge in unannounced, and used my bedroom window as their look out spot, all while letting a 3 year old toddler wander out into the street?


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 12:50pm
Again, I think more harm than good could potentially come from alerting neighbors of what is going down.  Obviously, the person they were attempting to apprehend was dangerous and was likely to flee due to the measures taken to arrest him. By including more people in on the situation, they heighten the danger levels for everyone around them.
 
In regards to the dog, a joke comes to mind:
 
Originally posted by OLD JOKE OLD JOKE wrote:

] A rattlesnake bites Johnny on his John Henry.        

          “Don’t panic,” says Johnny’s camping pal, “My trusty medical manual’ll tell us what to do.”   (The manual prescribes cutting an X on the snake bite, then sucking out the venom.)   The befuddled pal keeps re-reading the advice to himself.

“What’s it say?” asks Johnny, panicking.

“Says you’re going to die.”

The moral of the story being, if the officer has to choose between taking he puppy, that is already barking and endangering alerting the suspect, and putting it somewhere safe, or keeping his attention focused on not getting a cap shot in his arse. Puppy is gonna lose. Would you rather the police remove a dangerous criminal from your neighborhood or worry about Spot getting lost for a bit?
 
Where I agree is that once the person they were after was apprehended, they should have knocked on the door, introduced themselves and offered to either help find the puppy or at least notify the owner that he had gotten out. A lot of departments have civilian liaison officers that help in things like this. At least Orlando used to. They should have also left a business card or some sort of form that would allow the city to compensate the home owner for any damages caused. That was pretty ghetto.
 


Posted By: God
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


But I don't think that means cops should be jerks because they can.  It makes them look bad, it makes the department look bad, and it didn't appear to get them any further than knocking on God's door would have.


Exactly, I have always had a pro-law enforcement attitude. I interact with members of law enforcement on a regular basis through my education and employment and am friends with several members of the law enforcement community. These officers have sworn to serve the public by enforcing societies' laws. To do so they are granted a greater amount of power than a normal person is granted. Just as Uncle Ben told Peter Parker, "With this great power comes great responsibility." By not owning up to the damage and negligence that occurred, they failed to use their power responsibly. While I may never find out who exactly these two officers are,  I have lost some respect for them as individuals.


Posted By: God
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Again, I think more harm than good could potentially come from alerting neighbors of what is going down.  Obviously, the person they were attempting to apprehend was dangerous and was likely to flee due to the measures taken to arrest him. By including more people in on the situation, they heighten the danger levels for everyone around them.
 
The moral of the story being, if the officer has to choose between taking he puppy, that is already barking and endangering alerting the suspect, and putting it somewhere safe, or keeping his attention focused on not getting a cap shot in his arse. Puppy is gonna lose.


I think we could debate the pre-operation tactics, but that is not really what my beef with the officers is/was about. My focus is on their lack of curiosity that the officers extended after the incident and the having a discussion of where, when, what, how, and why law enforcement can do while serving an arrest warrant.


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:



So, you're saying that, simply because they're law enforcement personnel, they can enter my property whenever they want, provided it is "in the line of duty", or some-such?





That is exactly what I'm saying. Pulling an active duty cop from the line or an active chase to go knocking on the door of every resident in a neighborhood where there's a suspect loose seems like a waste of resources to me. Sure, it would be NICE to know that things are going down, but should damages result from the usage of your property- they're responsible. Case in point, letting you know that they broke the fence and let the dog out.

I can't wrap my head around the idea that in the event of an emergency, such as a foot chase of a suspect through a neighborhood, the police would have to get a warrant or knock on every door whenever they hop a fence or cross a property line to catch the guy. What if they try to knock and you're not home? Does that mean the perp. should be allowed to stand on the other side of the fence giving the police the finger because they don't have permission to cross your land?

Lets piece it all together.

- A high speed chase ends in your neighborhood. Lets pretend for a minute that you live in a housing development, densely populated. The suspect gets out of his car and runs between your house and a neighbor's. He proceeds to jump the fence in your back yard and continue on a straight line course for the woods behind the development. There is one patrol car that just pulled up, backup is on the way, but not there yet.

Should the patrolman's priorities be:

A: Call for a warrant so he can cross your property line without permission
B: Cease his search and go knocking on your door to let you know he's going to be passing through your property.
C: Continue his chase.

Of course, now lets assume that there are two policemen chasing a dangerous suspect. Should they split up so one can give chase and the other can knock on your door? Or, should they not risk splitting up and both go letting you know they're going to be poking around?

What you call 'silly' I'm inclined to call 'common sense'


-------------
?



Posted By: God
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 2:20pm
RebCpl: You are correct. Law Enforcement can pursue some suspects, in some circumstances anywhere the suspect goes. But other times they cannot. Proof of this is the fact that warrants exist in the first place. Also jurisdiction also plays a role. They do not have full immunity to pursue the suspect to the end of the earth and for an unlimited length of time.

An arrest warrant gives law enforcement the ability to enter a location for the purpose of arresting the whomever is listed on the warrant. The officers are granted the warrant by a member of the judiciary branch of the government because law enforcement has presented evidence that the suspect is within that location. If the officers go to the location to serve the warrant and the person is not there, under normal circumstances, the officers have to leave it at that or try to discover more evidence and wait for another warrant to be served at another location. The original warrant does not give the officers the authority to start searching all the other houses in the neighborhood until they find the suspect.

Had the officers barged through the suspect's front door and the suspects escaped and hopped over my wall and the officers witness the suspect doing so, then they are allowed to pursue the suspect, without additional warrants.

My orginal question is, does the original arrest warrant, give the officers the authority to use my property, that is most likely not mentioned in the warrant, as part of the officer's containment circle? If so, explain.


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 2:46pm
You're God . . .







. . . just smite them a bit.


-------------


Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 2:56pm
I hate pigs.


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

I hate pigs.


You know, you never fail to disappoint me. Every time I start to think that you've managed to lower everyone's opinions of you to the point where they could only go up.....you come out with a brilliant little gem like this, far from constructive, completely unrelated to what's going on, and with the sole purpose of making yourself look more like a tool than ever before.

Thank you.




-------------
?



Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

I hate pigs.


You know, you never fail to disappoint me. Every time I start to think that you've managed to lower everyone's opinions of you to the point where they could only go up.....you come out with a brilliant little gem like this, far from constructive, completely unrelated to what's going on, and with the sole purpose of making yourself look more like a tool than ever before.

Thank you.


 
Haha
 
http://tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=180629&KW=my+career - http://tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=180629&KW=my+career
 
Thanks for the myspace bulletin reb


Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

 
http://tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=180629&KW=my+career - http://tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=180629&KW=my+career
 
Thanks for the myspace bulletin reb
 
Holy cow that's scary.
 
Is this Maricopa county?


-------------

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?


Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by God God wrote:

RebCpl: You are correct. Law Enforcement can pursue some suspects, in some circumstances anywhere the suspect goes. But other times they cannot. Proof of this is the fact that warrants exist in the first place.
I'm going to have to step in and correct a few misconceptions.

You're taking the "no pursuit" directive some cities, like Dallas, have, where they usually cannot pursue someone for a minor traffic violation.

Vehicle pursuits do not equate to foot chases. In a foot chase, if a suspect stays within a SO/PD's territory, the police have the legal authority to go anywhere the suspect goes.   If they run through someones house, the cops can run through the house as well chasing the suspect. There is NO warrant required for an active pursuit, EVER.


Quote Also jurisdiction also plays a role. They do not have full immunity to pursue the suspect to the end of the earth and for an unlimited length of time.

If the end of the earth is within the departments jurisdiction, they can go there. A federal agency, such as the DEA, ATF, or FBI, really have no jurisdiction limits except for the US Borders. There is no legal time limit on how long they can and cannot chase a suspect.



Quote An arrest warrant gives law enforcement the ability to enter a location for the purpose of arresting the whomever is listed on the warrant. The officers are granted the warrant by a member of the judiciary branch of the government because law enforcement has presented evidence that the suspect is within that location.
Arrest warrants don't have a specific boundry on where officers can and cannot go. An arrest warrant is just that, arrest on sight. Only a search warrant needs to have a specific premise specified.

Quote
If the officers go to the location to serve the warrant and the person is not there, under normal circumstances, the officers have to leave it at that or try to discover more evidence and wait for another warrant to be served at another location.


Also false. If you fail to detain a suspect at a location thought to house him, you don't need to get more evidence, and you don't need to get another arrest warrant. Arrest warrants are good until rescinded or fulfilled.


Quote The original warrant does not give the officers the authority to start searching all the other houses in the neighborhood until they find the suspect.
Correct--- a search warrant is needed to search other houses. But if they have reasonable suspicion that the suspect is hiding in one of those yards, they can walk through the yards all they want, fenced or not.



Quote Had the officers barged through the suspect's front door and the suspects escaped and hopped over my wall and the officers witness the suspect doing so, then they are allowed to pursue the suspect, without additional warrants.
An officer doesn't need a warrant to pursue anyone.



Quote My orginal question is, does the original arrest warrant, give the officers the authority to use my property, that is most likely not mentioned in the warrant, as part of the officer's containment circle? If so, explain.
An arrest warrant doesn't give any other authority then to arrest someone.

A search warrant doesn't give any more authority then to search an area.

An officer does not need to clear anything with a judge to walk in someones backyard if they aren't conducting an investigation involving that yard, or the owner.

And, only search warrants have to specify an area to be searched. All an arrest warrant states is who, what crime, and stuff like that. No mention of property.

-------------



Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

I hate pigs.


You know, you never fail to disappoint me. Every time I start to think that you've managed to lower everyone's opinions of you to the point where they could only go up.....you come out with a brilliant little gem like this, far from constructive, completely unrelated to what's going on, and with the sole purpose of making yourself look more like a tool than ever before.

Thank you.


 
Haha
 
http://tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=180629&KW=my+career - http://tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=180629&KW=my+career
 
Thanks for the myspace bulletin reb


People still do that?

lol.


I'm really going to beg your pardon this time. I'm staring down the barrel of a 16 hour day during which I need to completely empty out a network office that has been serving as a storage closet for 5 years, shut down and move our servers to a new location, as well as a few other things...all of which I found out about yesterday. In short I get to spend all day and half my night at work when I'd much rather be at home to help my 9 months pregnant wife get ready to bring our first kid into the world.

If I'm a total dickweed tonight, there's the reason, and I honestly and publicly apologize.





-------------
?



Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

I hate pigs.


You know, you never fail to disappoint me. Every time I start to think that you've managed to lower everyone's opinions of you to the point where they could only go up.....you come out with a brilliant little gem like this, far from constructive, completely unrelated to what's going on, and with the sole purpose of making yourself look more like a tool than ever before.

Thank you.


 
Haha
 
http://tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=180629&KW=my+career - http://tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=180629&KW=my+career
 
Thanks for the myspace bulletin reb


People still do that?

lol.


 
Myspace bulletins?


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:59pm
Yeah, myspace bulletins. Hell, I haven't been on myspace in about 6 months....I'd forgotten it even existed.



And see edit for explanation of ass-hatery on my part.




-------------
?



Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:04pm

After reading the circumstances, your more than allowed to be an ass hat haha.

P.S. Haven't you ever noticed, I never get into cop vs. * arguments. It's not worth it, anything you say will never change someones opinion. So I don't even bother.
 
Mmmm bacon.


Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

After reading the circumstances, your more than allowed to be an ass hat haha.

P.S. Haven't you ever noticed, I never get into cop vs. * arguments. It's not worth it, anything you say will never change someones opinion. So I don't even bother.
 
Mmmm bacon.


You know, part of the problem is I have a REALLY short memory too. I honestly and truly didn't remember that thread you made until you linked it.

I've also noticed that getting into MOST arguments around here is futile- changing anyone's mind is about as likely as seeing an end to Canadian jokes. But its still fun.




-------------
?



Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by God God wrote:

My orginal question is, does the original arrest warrant, give the officers the authority to use my property, that is most likely not mentioned in the warrant, as part of the officer's containment circle? If so, explain.
God, you mentioned earlier that you 'hobknob' with several law enforcement officers.  Why not ask them?
 
I don't believe the warrant gives officers specific authority to use your property.  Perhaps law enforcement have some kind of limited power of emminent domain which allows them to access private property while in the performance of their duties.  I don't know.  Perhaps you can call Sam.  I think the phone call is free...


-------------


Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

I hate pigs.
I don't.  They're quite tasty when prepared correctly.  Especially on top of pizza!   Mmmmmmmm...  Pepperoni and Italian Saucage....  /drool


-------------


Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by StormyKnight StormyKnight wrote:

Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

I hate pigs.
I don't.  They're quite tasty when prepared correctly.  Especially on top of pizza!   Mmmmmmmm...  Pepperoni and Italian Saucage....  /drool

That is what I am ordering tonight from Mama Lisa's!


-------------
Innocence proves nothing
FUAC!!!!!




Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Common sense.


I totally agree with that situation; I think I said something along those lines before, but I may just have thought it.

The point is that this situation didn't require them to simply barge through without consulting anyone.  They clearly had time to set up in his yard, so I don't see why they didn't take time to tell him they were there.

If they had been chasing the guy the warrant was being served on through the yard, it would make a lot more sense to me as well.

But they decided it was easier to smash in the gate and go about their business like they owned the place.  Maybe they were really pressed for time that morning or something, but that's not how I would expect cops to act in my neighborhood, that's not how I've seen any act in my neighborhood, and I would definitely call up the PD if I saw that happening -- whether in Boston or New Jersey. 

If the situation had been more demanding of the officers -- ie: guy with a gun, already chasing the guy, etc -- I would be willing to cut them a lot more slack.  But they were just chilling back there.  Certainly they had time on the way out to explain what happened.

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:



I've also noticed that getting into MOST arguments around here is futile- changing anyone's mind is about as likely as seeing an end to Canadian jokes. But its still fun.




I blame the interwebz.


-------------
BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by Ceesman762 Ceesman762 wrote:

Originally posted by StormyKnight StormyKnight wrote:

Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

I hate pigs.
I don't.  They're quite tasty when prepared correctly.  Especially on top of pizza!   Mmmmmmmm...  Pepperoni and Italian Saucage....  /drool

That is what I am ordering tonight from Mama Lisa's!
Is she hot?


-------------


Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:49pm
She's dead.  Stone cold dead.
her daughter is a MILF.


-------------
Innocence proves nothing
FUAC!!!!!




Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 9:15pm
You know back in 1939, Hitler allowed the SS just to go into whatever yard they wanted.

-------------
Que pasa?




Posted By: oreomann33
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 10:58pm
I hate pigs.

-------------


Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

You know back in 1939, Hitler allowed the SS just to go into whatever yard they wanted.
 
You know, back in 1939, hitler supported gun control.


Posted By: Uncle Rudder
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by oreomann33 oreomann33 wrote:

I hate pigs.
 
Tr00f, ham sucks. 


-------------


Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

You know back in 1939, Hitler allowed the SS just to go into whatever yard they wanted.

 

You know, back in 1939, hitler supported gun control.


You know, back in 19__, hitler got rejected from art school.





Art kills.

-------------



Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 12:36am
Originally posted by StormyKnight StormyKnight wrote:

Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

I hate pigs.
I don't.  They're quite tasty when prepared correctly.  Especially on top of pizza!   Mmmmmmmm...  Pepperoni and Italian Saucage....  /drool
Hawaiian pizza ftw


-------------

irc.esper.net
#paintball


Posted By: Brian Fellows
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 12:48am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

You know back in 1939, Hitler allowed the SS just to go into whatever yard they wanted.

A discussion about cops lasted 4 pages before being Godwined?

Son, I am disappoint.


Posted By: Destruction
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 12:57am
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:


Originally posted by StormyKnight StormyKnight wrote:

Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

I hate pigs.

I don't.  They're quite tasty when prepared correctly.  Especially on top of pizza!   Mmmmmmmm...  Pepperoni and Italian Saucage....  /drool
Hawaiian pizza ftw


qfmft

-------------
u dont know what to do ur getting mottor boatted

Men are from Magmar, women are from Venusaur.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 8:06am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

You know back in 1939, Hitler allowed the SS just to go into whatever yard they wanted.

 

You know, back in 1939, hitler supported gun control.


You know, back in 19__, hitler got rejected from art school.





Art kills.
 
Your logic is flawed. Quite obviously, LACK of art kills!



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