Obama drops the hammer
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Topic: Obama drops the hammer
Posted By: Gatyr
Subject: Obama drops the hammer
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 4:57pm
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-05-04-voa43.cfm - No more off-shore tax havens, brah .
I know I am not for inhibiting economic efficiency for the sake of
keeping jobs in the U.S., but my initial response to making U.S.
companies pay taxes to the U.S. government is "good."
Though, I don't know near enough about the tax system to form an
educated opinion on whether this is good/bad or right/wrong. It seems
like some tax shelters are just benefits the rich gave themselves as a
present for being so wicked awesome cool, but there are definitely tax
breaks that are legitimately beneficial for a society to have.
It
appears, again, to my ignorant eye, that the code in question falls
in the former category.
Thoughts?
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Replies:
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 4:58pm
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Yeah, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. Peter Parker, Tallen?
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 5:21pm
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What about in-shore tax havens like Delaware? If they lower the corporate tax rate as well maybe they won't get too much backlash.
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 5:23pm
To be honest I'm not sure if Obama really has a say in it. Off shore tax havens are exactly that... Off shore.
Although saying that I think the Swiss are actually quite keen on this and most of the International community are getting behind it. Some might need a little convincing...
The Guardian wrote:
Swiss ministers said the government caved in after learning the country
was going to be included this month on a blacklist of uncooperative
tax havens drawn up by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and
Development (OECD). Having agreed to sign up to the OECD protocol on
tax, Switzerland will hand over information on account holders
suspected of tax evasion by another country. |
Alot of folk are saying the poorer countries will benefit aswell. And tbh I find it hard to oppose anything that'll do that. But like you guys I've not actually looked into this a great deal and have no idea why it's good for them.
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Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 5:51pm
ive been saying tax breaks for companies in the US/small buisness and tax the hell out of imports...
gubment needs to stop trying to stick there hands in everyones pockets... IF goods come into the states, tax um. if goods are manufactured in the states tax them less and let them make jobs (getting people off welfare and lowering the tax burden)
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Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 5:56pm
merc wrote:
ive been saying tax breaks for companies in the US/small buisness and tax the hell out of imports...
gubment needs to stop trying to stick there hands in everyones pockets... IF goods come into the states, tax um. if goods are manufactured in the states tax them less and let them make jobs (getting people off welfare and lowering the tax burden) |
Unfortunately protectionism leads to a complete withdraw of foreign imports which then hurts the economy even more.
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 6:14pm
merc wrote:
ive been saying tax breaks for companies in the US/small buisness and tax the hell out of imports...
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yes, because those have worked out SOOOOO well for us in the past.
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 6:39pm
It's a double-edged sword and the effect it will have on our country won't be seen until well after Obama is long out of office.
On the "pro" side of things. It will give incentive to companies already here in the US to "keep everything in the kitchen" in the sense that they can't re-locate their HQ somewhere else and get a tax break out of it.
The "cons" far outweigh the pros when it comes to the survival of said companies in a global marketplace. Remaining in the US means that they have to pay for a higher standard of living for their employees. This means higher costs from the CEO on down to the lowest of the toilet scrubbers. HQ's tend to physically move off-shore to be closer to the point of production (India, China, and Vietnam right now) get a bit of a tax break, and reduce overhead for their plant and property that don't produce income for them. A headquarters never generates any kind of revenue, it only takes from the revenue stream. So lowering costs as much as possible for the HQ is simple business sense. If this means incorporating in Bangalore India, then that's what it takes. Now, I understand that what Obama is trying to do is eliminate the Cayman and Swiss shelters that many individuals and companies use to hide their funds and avoid higher taxes. That's all well and good, but write the tax code so it affects those trying to circumvent the laws, not as punishment for global corporations doing what is necessary to survive.
The tax code is probably the worst written document in HISTORY. I've seen book reports from autistic midgets that make better sense.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 6:45pm
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Well salaries are already through the roof. If operational fees are higher and incomes are down (so prices cant survive a big jump) maybe this will provide a nudge for some companies to stop babying their higher ups finally. Well..maybe not stop, but take $5 from their purse on occasion.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 6:57pm
tallen702 wrote:
The tax code is probably the worst written document in HISTORY. I've seen book reports from autistic midgets that make better sense. |
Are midgets bad writers?
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 7:05pm
I reckon this could be necessary if not to punish individuals or
company's but to manage the global economy as a whole. I'm not sure if there is any real emphasis on the outsourcing. To me it seems more to the financial cat and mouse game played by most large companys with any sense in the country's like Switzerland. These tax havens are almost untouchable. As far as international law goes they are legal. So you can imagine how much cash is sitting in them. With these kind
of unknown quantitys in these places then it's almost certain to go
tit's up.
This is an international effort. It was one of the bigger points of the G20.
"There's a building in the Cayman Islands that
houses supposedly 12,000 US-based corporations. That's either the
biggest building in the world or the biggest tax scam in the world, and
we know which one it is."
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 7:27pm
ParielIsBack wrote:
tallen702 wrote:
The tax code is probably the worst written document in HISTORY. I've seen book reports from autistic midgets that make better sense. | Are midgets bad writers? | Just their cursive and manuscript, it's those stubby little fingers....
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 8:11pm
Wow. First, credit card fine print and now targeting the Cayman Islands with a nuke. What's next?
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Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 11:01pm
I though that Obama had shot MC Hammer.
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 8:46pm
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"Tax havens" are a term used to describe a number of different things.
Switzerland and Lichtenstein, for instance, used to be 'tax havens" in the sense that they would not report anything to taxing authorities, allowing taxpayers to commit tax fraud by hiding assets and income in Swiss banks. As noted above, this has mostly changed, and it is also unrelated to the current issue.
Another kind of "tax haven" would be the Channel Islands, Saudi Arabia, and other places with little or no income/asset tax, where individuals move for retirement to maximize the benefit of their retirement savings. This is perfectly legal and remains so. My grandparents moved to Lanzarote for their retirement, in part because of taxation and general cost of living. This also in unaffected by the current issue.
The current issue deals purely with corporate taxation of multinational corporations. International tax is a hideously complex issue, as it features the interaction between the tax laws of at least two countries (which often have entirely different taxation systems) and usually also a treaty or two. To give you a sense of the complexity involved, the single most expensive attorney in our entire (very large) firm is our top international tax guy. Not the firm CEO, not the IP lawyers, not the M&A guys - the international tax guy. He is also one of the very smartest people I have ever known. I am not that guy. As a result, my post is based on my very incomplete understanding of international tax issues.
A central purpose of international tax policy is to minimize two opposing problems: tax avoidance and double taxation. The basic idea is that if country A taxes something, then country B should not - but if country A does not tax something, then country B should be free to do so.
The loophole in question in not some self-serving gift to the rich - it benefits only US corporations with significant foreign operations (and some foreign corporations in the US). This loophole is the result of an effort to avoid double taxation, resulting from an interaction between US tax law and the laws of many other countries. The basic US rule is that all income earned in the US is taxed in the US; and income earned anywhere by a "US person" is taxable in the US. Part of what makes a corporation a "US person" is their "domicile," which is defined in part by their headquarters. This has allowed some US corporations with significant foreign income to shuffle some operations around, including their HQ, and thereby not being "US persons." This is not illegal in the least, but has resulted in significant revenue loss to the IRS from corporations that were intended to be covered by the Internal Revenue Code. Only corporations with very specific characteristics can take advantage of this loophole, but these few corporations are by definition very large and profitable, so the lost tax revenue is significant.
My understanding is that the current change simply tweaks the definition of "US person" to limit the ability to stop being a US person simply by moving some office space around. Maybe they are messing with the definition of "substantial presence" - I don't know.
As tallen noted, there is an increased risk of double taxation resulting from this - but right now there is rather significant undertaxation. This is a well-known and longstanding loophole. I don't see any real risk of significant negative effect on foreign investment or anything else of the kind. This has nothing to do with salaries or labor standards. There is a risk that some foreign companies will get swept into being "US persons," which would not be intended, but that number would be very small, and that loss would be overcome many times over by the increased tax revenue to the IRS from actual US corporations.
Separately - I disagree completely that the IRC is poorly drafted. To the contrary, the IRC is one of the best-drafted laws we have. Along with the Bankruptcy Code and the UCC, the IRC is an example of code drafted by the actual experts in the field instead of elected amateurs. It is extremely complex and difficult to understand, but it is very exact, non-contradictory, and in general excellent.
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Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 10:45pm
Peter Parker wrote:
Separately - I disagree completely that the IRC is poorly drafted. To the contrary, the IRC is one of the best-drafted laws we have. Along with the Bankruptcy Code and the UCC, the IRC is an example of code drafted by the actual experts in the field instead of elected amateurs. It is extremely complex and difficult to understand, but it is very exact, non-contradictory, and in general excellent.
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Well, almost everyone I see making statements about the IRC comments about how convoluted it is and how reform is so necessary. In fact I don't think I have EVER seen anyone praise the code.
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 10:50pm
Gatyr wrote:
Well, almost everyone I see making statements about the IRC comments about how convoluted it is and how reform is so necessary.
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I agree with both of those statements. But that has nothing to do with the drafting.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 10:51pm
Peter Parker wrote:
Separately - I disagree completely that the IRC is poorly drafted. To the contrary, the IRC is one of the best-drafted laws we have. Along with the Bankruptcy Code and the UCC, the IRC is an example of code drafted by the actual experts in the field instead of elected amateurs. It is extremely complex and difficult to understand, but it is very exact, non-contradictory, and in general excellent.
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The main reason it is completely unintelligible to the average American. I understand that this stuff is supposed to be complicated, but honestly, they can do way better.
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 10:56pm
ParielIsBack wrote:
Peter Parker wrote:
Separately - I disagree completely that the IRC is poorly drafted. To the contrary, the IRC is one of the best-drafted laws we have. Along with the Bankruptcy Code and the UCC, the IRC is an example of code drafted by the actual experts in the field instead of elected amateurs. It is extremely complex and difficult to understand, but it is very exact, non-contradictory, and in general excellent. |
The main reason it is completely unintelligible to the average American. I understand that this stuff is supposed to be complicated, but honestly, they can do way better.
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How is it important, or even relevant, that the average American understand the Code? It does not exist for reading entertainment. You might as well criticize computer code for being hard to read to the average American.
The code does a far better job of accomplishing its purpose than most laws.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 11:05pm
Peter Parker wrote:
ParielIsBack wrote:
Peter Parker wrote:
Separately - I disagree completely that the IRC is poorly drafted. To the contrary, the IRC is one of the best-drafted laws we have. Along with the Bankruptcy Code and the UCC, the IRC is an example of code drafted by the actual experts in the field instead of elected amateurs. It is extremely complex and difficult to understand, but it is very exact, non-contradictory, and in general excellent. |
The main reason it is completely unintelligible to the average American. I understand that this stuff is supposed to be complicated, but honestly, they can do way better.
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How is it important, or even relevant, that the average American understand the Code? It does not exist for reading entertainment. You might as well criticize computer code for being hard to read to the average American.
The code does a far better job of accomplishing its purpose than most laws. |
Average Americans don't have to rewrite computer code. They do, on the other hand, have to fill out their taxes.
I understand you're on a higher level of understanding than the rest of the population of this country, but the tax code is literally not understandable to people without significant education in regard to it. Complicated things in general are not efficient, and the fact that it has actually created an industry says more than enough for its complication.
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 11:10pm
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But the tax CODE is not the 1040 instruction booklet. The instruction booklet should be easy to understand, much like the user's manual for your computer software. The tax CODE, on the other hand, are the instructions to the tax machine, and that CODE has to be exact and free of vaguery, contradiction, omission, or inconsistency.
Laws are the computer code of the judicial system. Not the user manual.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 12:07am
Peter Parker wrote:
But the tax CODE is not the 1040 instruction booklet. The instruction booklet should be easy to understand, much like the user's manual for your computer software. The tax CODE, on the other hand, are the instructions to the tax machine, and that CODE has to be exact and free of vaguery, contradiction, omission, or inconsistency.
Laws are the computer code of the judicial system. Not the user manual. |
The useful thing about computers is that they have a useful user interface. There are rarely user interfaces for the legal system, and they generally suck, including the ones for taxes.
I'm not worried about you possibly agreeing with me, so I'll skip the analogies and just say that filling out a 1040 and taking advantage of the tax code are not the same thing. The people with money do the latter, and everyone else is stuck with the former. That is the problem.
There's a lot of crap code floating around in programs, and it hasn't caused the world to end yet. The tax lawyers could serve to simplify their's A LOT.
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 11:30am
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My point is that the tax code is complex not because it was drafted poorly, but because the legislature created a complex system. The folks that drafted the IRC implemented the complex system created by the legislature. You cannot correctly implement a complex system without using complex code. If you want to simplify the Code, you need to simplify the tax system first.
The tax code gives the same result when given the same data. That's what I mean that it is well drafted. Poorly drafted code either gives unpredictable results or simply crashes. The IRC hardly ever crashes.
That cannot be said for many other laws. Most notably, laws drafted by legislators to be "easy to understand" are almost always fuzzy, vague, and give unpredictable results.
You want to simplify the tax code? Great - but that requires Congressional action. It has nothing to do with the drafters of the Code. Your beef is with policy, not with the implementation. The implementation (the Internal Revenue Code) is excellent. It just happens to excellently implement a policy that you think is too complex.
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"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".
Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 1:56pm
Peter Parker wrote:
My point is that the tax code is complex not because it was drafted poorly, but because the legislature created a complex system. The folks that drafted the IRC implemented the complex system created by the legislature. You cannot correctly implement a complex system without using complex code. If you want to simplify the Code, you need to simplify the tax system first. |
Legitimate. Why this hasn't been done yet, I don't know. Well, I'm sure I could list reasons, but it's not worth anyone's time. The point is that it needs to be done.
The tax code gives the same result when given the same data. That's what I mean that it is well drafted. Poorly drafted code either gives unpredictable results or simply crashes. The IRC hardly ever crashes.
That cannot be said for many other laws. Most notably, laws drafted by legislators to be "easy to understand" are almost always fuzzy, vague, and give unpredictable results. |
Most of those laws aren't used by a couple hundred million people every year, and should probably be as complex and well defined as tax code is now. The nitpicky difference between the law and the actual tax code (if there is any -- I don't know and it's not significant to this argument because it...) is silly. This country spends thousands of dollars per high school student to teach them about drug and driving laws, almost of all of which are very easy to understand, as long as you're literate. I don't understand why something as integral to a family's finances as taxes is made so complicated to the point that the only people who can make it work for them are the very rich.
You want to simplify the tax code? Great - but that requires Congressional action. It has nothing to do with the drafters of the Code. Your beef is with policy, not with the implementation. The implementation (the Internal Revenue Code) is excellent. It just happens to excellently implement a policy that you think is too complex. |
Unless I'm confused, this is absolutely Obama's plan. If he's come up with another way to implement legislation (and I doubt an executive order would cover this one), I would call up the Justice department because he happens to be in the wrong branch for that bit of work.
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