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Demjanjuk

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URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=181656
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Topic: Demjanjuk
Posted By: oldsoldier
Subject: Demjanjuk
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 9:33am
Do you agree that John (Ivan) Demjanjuk should have been extridited to Germany to stand trial on charges of being an SS Concentration camp guard. In 1993 Isreal overturned his guilty verdict on appeal based on written evidense that the true "Ivan the Terrible" of Treblinka was a man named "Ivan Marchenko".

The US can deport based on his false citizenship application in which he did not disclose he was a member of the SS. But many other German SS members were granted citizenship based on political need (ie spy on the East Germans and Soviet occupation Army).

Now he again is on trial in Germany for charges of being "Ivan The Terrible" discounting the more extensive Isreali investigation and subsequent appeal decesion.

The man is 89, and after the war was a veteran trying to re-establish a life here in the US after a very terrifying expierience in the War. A Soviet soldier, captured by the Germans, recruited into a anti-Soviet German military unit (death sentence if returned to native Ukraine after war) did the duty assigned as a guard (not a executioner in the camp), fled to the west to avoid capture by the Russians and as many other German military immagrated to the US.

Double jeopardy is only a US legal point, but if the Isreali's cleared him, how can the Germans convict with the same evidense. It is time to let it go, let him return back to his home in Ohio, and die with his US family at his side.

Many Isreali newspapers are also calling this as a "witch hunt" since thier courts cleared this man. One paper the Makor Rishon has stated that they will petition the government that this man can come to Isreal with his family, forget the war, and die of old age with dignity.

What do you feel should be done?

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Replies:
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 9:53am
Trying a man on such charges is complete BS. Do they honestly think that he should have resisted his circumstances and been killed himself? He did what he needed to survive, and considering the evidence we've been told about, he hasn't done anything criminal except the falsification of immigration documents.

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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 10:08am
When I first heard of this, I honestly felt that he was getting what he deserved. Do the crime, do the time. However, I was not aware of the info regarding a previous trial and clearing by Israel. I will have to look for this. If true, I would lean towards letting him go. If the people that he is suspected of wronging have cleared him and are willing to forgive, perhaps everyone else should be as well. I wonder how much of this is based on issues regarding the resurgence of Nazi youth in Germany? Is this Germanies way of showing they are trying to do something about it? When I was in Munich last November, there happened to be some sort of Neo Nazi gathering. Seemed to make a lot of people nervous and got very little air time.


Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 10:30am
He literally lived right down the road from me.

edit- The trial from Israel was unrelated. They thought he was someone else at a different camp than the one he was in.


Originally posted by BBC BBC wrote:

He denies accusations that he worked as a guard in the Sobibor Nazi death camp in Poland during World War II.


This isn't about "Ivan the terrible" or Treblinka. It's about his role at Sobibor.


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Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 11:03am
the guy is 88 years old...the doctor will probably file his report saying hes too old to stand trial and he'll be fine...the guys 88 for christ's sake. how much can they do to him? sentence him to life? that could just be another 2 months for all anyone knows


Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 2:45pm
I'm getting sick of this crap. It's "breaking news" when he leaves his house. Literally, the news stops and goes to the story over and over.

He's a soldier. That's like taking any other soldier and putting him on trial. No one knows what he really did.

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hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives."


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 3:00pm
If he was actually a nazi, then yes this was the right thing to do. If not, that sucks.


Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 5:33pm
We should try the pope.

He was a Hitler Youth. He was an anti aircraft soldier. He was also a captured POW.

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Que pasa?




Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 5:53pm

Automatically enrolled as were all German males upon their 14th, birthday, was drafted out of Seminary school against his wishes, deserted his troop and was captured and released. Never at any time, did he lie to conceal his identity or past actions. But good try.



Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 5:58pm
Jmac loves trollin'.

Srsly though, I am surprised at many of the responses to this.


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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Double jeopardy is only a US legal point, but if the Isreali's cleared him, how can the Germans convict with the same evidense.
 
Double jeopardy is a concept in most legal systems around the world, not just the US.  We inherited it from the UK, as did the rest of the Commonwealth legal systems, and many other legal systems came up with the concept on their own.  Pretty standard in non-crappy legal systems.
 
But double jeopardy is a concept only as to any given sovereignty.  US law prohibits a state from prosecuting twice for the same offense, but does not prohibit a state for prosecuting for a crime, even if the defendant was already tried on the same offense in another country.
 
In fact, it is pretty common.  For really bad people, it is not unusual, for instance, to serve 20 years for murder in country A, and then be extradited to country B, where they are promptly tried and convicted again for the exact same murder.
 
In the US, we can even do one better:  the Federal government and the various states are seperate sovereign entities.  Some crimes, like murder and bank robbery, are both state and federal crimes.  The law allows state and federal governments both to try a man for the same crime.  As a matter of federal policy, we don't do that, but the legal theory is there.
 
On point - the old nazy guys are a very difficult matter.  Difficult because of the time that has lapsed, and difficult because of the simply tumultuousness of the times.  I have a fair amount of sympathy for the Nuremburg defense.  There are matters of degree to all things, of course, but virtually everything that happens in national conflict would be a "crime" under civilian law.  IMO these things are more political than anything else, and we mostly make up the rules as we go along, to satisfy our sense of moral indignation.
 


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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 6:27pm
Demjanjuk sounds like a metal band.  


Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

Demjanjuk sounds like a metal band.  


*throws up the horns


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irc.esper.net
#paintball


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

We should try the pope. He was a Hitler Youth. He was an anti aircraft soldier. He was also a captured POW.


What about the founder of IKEA? He has more recent nazi activity than Hitler Youth.

No, because the Pope/ IKEA guy weren't ACTUALLY nazis. They didn't kill anyone (that we know about)



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