Flip Flop
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=181705
Printed Date: 22 January 2026 at 6:56pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Flip Flop
Posted By: .Ryan
Subject: Flip Flop
Date Posted: 17 May 2009 at 10:31pm
|
Ok, so I was watching the reaction to the recent reversal by the Obama Administration on the torture photos. I really don't care that much about the photos, but my thought was about the whole idea of "flip flopping" in American politics. It seems like a lot of pols(especially on the right) out there and most of the media seem to think that if ever a politician changes their mind it is a reflection of weak character or resolve or something...We saw this big time during the Kerry campaign. My thought is, shouldn't we want our leaders to be thoughtful and flexible instead of simple and bull-headed, as long as they don't abandon their principles? What's with this? Thoughts? -------------  |
Replies:
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 17 May 2009 at 10:54pm
|
I'm not speaking specifically about this instance, but why is it that it is a bad thing for someone to change their decision based on new information?
|
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 17 May 2009 at 11:03pm
|
Restating the OP choop?
------------- Que pasa? 
|
Posted By: slackerr26
Date Posted: 17 May 2009 at 11:30pm
|
/waits for FE
------------- 
|
Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 1:35am
|
I have no idea about what Obama stance the OP is talking about, and I don't doubt its being blown out of proportion, but in general I'd say there's a distinct difference between changing stances in the light of significant new information and changing stances anytime something goes wrong/changes/etc. Being unable to stand by your views shows your easy to be pushed around. By the same token, being resolutely stubborn is just as dumb, it shows you're not paying attention and live in fairy-tale land. In most instances (minus Kerry) flip flop attack seems silly, since often times changes in stance are entirely justified, but a leader who ignores his principles and seeks popularity is a weak one. ------------- Real Men play Tuba [IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
Posted By: Predatorr
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 1:42am
|
Frankly, Obama is doing the right thing, regardless of political party, and every President should be expected to act this way. The United States really needs to work on developing stronger Soft Power, being how we look in the eyes of other nations; our ability to entice other nations to side with us based on attractiveness of our policies, etc., rather than having to coerce them with muscle (Hard Power). |
Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 1:48am
|
I'll agree that stubbornly defending a position you know to be wrong or no longer believe is stupid but I can't completely forgive politicians for flip-flopping. You do have a point but it seems that most politicians are not changing their stance on certain issues because they were wrong before but rather because they're trying to make somebody happy (not necessarily the general population). They often flip their position seemingly out of nowhere and rarely give an explanation. I mean, if they came out and said, "hey, I wanted to do A but now I realize that the best thing to do is B because ...." then that would be different. However, usually they promise a bunch of stuff while campaigning in order to get votes and then they get in office and when it comes time to deliver on their promises they will flip their position with no explanation, leaving their supporters feeling deceived. Sometimes they even do it mid-campaign. The problem I have with it is that without any explanation it appears that they are just saying what people want to hear so they can get something (votes, etc.) and then they'll just do whatever they feel like doing.
------------- oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey Me: But only if they're hungary Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth |
Posted By: Cedric
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 2:06am
I thought this was going to be about footwear so I'll post my favorite flip flops: ------------- 
|
Posted By: God
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 10:47am
| I have the same pair of sandals and a pair in black. |
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 10:50am
|
What Darur (and others) said. Flip-flopping is just that - casually changing stances for convenience or other invalid reasons. Changing positions based on new information or persuasive arguments is just being open-minded - of course, if you do this too often I might think you tend to jump to conclusions, but that is a different problem. Kerry's problem (and others) was that he always seemed to take the convenient position, and there never seemed to be a particularly good reason for changing his position. That, and he tended to draw very fine theoretical distinctions that most people don't care about.
Failure to change positions as all is just childish.
On the specific subject - I am not well-informed enough to have a substantive opinion, but I do think that any attack on the President from the right would be extremely hypocritical. First criticizing a guy for taking a position you don't like, and then criticizing him for flip-flopping when you convince him to take your position? That's just bizarre. I haven't heard that charge yet in this case, and I hope I don't. ------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 11:07am
|
Comparing the current situation to theKerry one is silly. Kerry was notorious for switching his opinion on issues to tailor his response to whoever he was talking to.
------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 11:07am
|
I'm not surprised. To put those photo's out would put the lives of the men and women of our armed forces at risk.
I for one am glad he woke up...
Leading our country is not an easy task. And in his position you have to make the tough decisions. That is his pay grade.
I think the recent poll of 51% of Americans are pro life will be interesting as he is about to nominate a new Supreme court justice. And his past history of wanting to rewrite the constitution to fit the goals of the far left makes me very nervous.
But, then he does something like this, and it gives me "Hope" for "Change"... ------------- They tremble at my name... 
|
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 11:22am
| I'm certainly glad he's changed his mind about the photos(abuse and the NY flyover), and military commissions to try detainees, but I obviously would have preferred it if he had anticipated the reaction and not made the bad call in the first place. Obama can politically afford to piss off some liberals, but it's in his best interest for him to avoid alienating moderates. Regardless of what his personal opinions on these matters and initial judgments were, he's ultimately making the right decisions. |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 11:31am
------------- Que pasa?
|
FreeEnterprise wrote:Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 11:39am
|
------------- They tremble at my name...
|
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 11:57am
|
"By giving fuel to the terrorists" So the fact that the USA is currently conducting conflicts in two Middle East countries isn't really a good enough reason already? What is wrong with what is said in that video? ------------- Que pasa?
|
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 12:16pm
As much as I disagree with the Obama administration, and as glad as I am that the photos are NOT being released; It sure would be a terrible turn of events if all of a sudden soldiers in conflict areas were in danger. Just look at all the injuries that are coming back from the land of bubble wrap and marshmellows they're dealing with right now. 
------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 2:21pm
| Basically he is just worried that he photos will cause a large backlash overseas, which they obviously don't want. It's not that the photos wont be seen, it's that the timing is wrong. |
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 18 May 2009 at 3:28pm
|
So it's about sincerity over political expedience....That's what I was thinking. I think Kerry kinda got screwed with his whole, "I voted for it before I voted against it", thing....He was saying things changed so he reconsidered, but whatever... As far as a the photos go, I think not releasing them was probably the right call, but we can't forget the fact that the crap still went on, all the pics would have done is served as a reminder and something for the ranters to point to while they ranted.....I'm still kind of torn as to what to do about the whole torture issue as a whole though....I'm convinced that laws were broken, war crimes were committed, and we need to face them and make amends....But I believe in what the Administration is trying to do and I would hate to see some of the most productive time they have get hijacked by drama....I dunno, my opinion on this changes with my mood....Thoughts? Ps No time to debate FE at the moment, lookin' forward to good times to come though....lol... ------------- |