From the Horses Mouth
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Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
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URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=181887
Printed Date: 14 November 2025 at 8:22pm
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Topic: From the Horses Mouth
Posted By: oldsoldier
Subject: From the Horses Mouth
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 8:15am
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http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/107459-0/ - http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/107459-0/
American capitalism gone with a whimper Front page / Opinion / Columnists 27.04.2009 Source: Pravda.Ru Pages: 12 It must be said, that like the breaking of a great dam, the American decent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed, against the back drop of a passive, hapless sheeple, excuse me dear reader, I meant people. True, the situation has been well prepared on and off for the past century, especially the past twenty years. The initial testing grounds was conducted upon our Holy Russia and a bloody test it was. But we Russians would not just roll over and give up our freedoms and our souls, no matter how much money Wall Street poured into the fists of the Marxists. Those lessons were taken and used to properly prepare the American populace for the surrender of their freedoms and souls, to the whims of their elites and betters. First, the population was dumbed down through a politicized and substandard education system based on pop culture, rather then the classics. Americans know more about their favorite TV dramas then the drama in DC that directly affects their lives. They care more for their "right" to choke down a McDonalds burger or a BurgerKing burger than for their constitutional rights. Then they turn around and lecture us about our rights and about our "democracy". Pride blind the foolish. Then their faith in God was destroyed, until their churches, all tens of thousands of different "branches and denominations" were for the most part little more then Sunday circuses and their televangelists and top protestant mega preachers were more then happy to sell out their souls and flocks to be on the "winning" side of one pseudo Marxist politician or another. Their flocks may complain, but when explained that they would be on the "winning" side, their flocks were ever so quick to reject Christ in hopes for earthly power. Even our Holy Orthodox churches are scandalously liberalized in America. The final collapse has come with the election of Barack Obama. His speed in the past three months has been truly impressive. His spending and money printing has been a record setting, not just in America's short history but in the world. If this keeps up for more then another year, and there is no sign that it will not, America at best will resemble the Wiemar Republic and at worst Zimbabwe. These past two weeks have been the most breath taking of all. First came the announcement of a planned redesign of the American Byzantine tax system, by the very thieves who used it to bankroll their thefts, loses and swindles of hundreds of billions of dollars. These make our Russian oligarchs look little more then ordinary street thugs, in comparison. Yes, the Americans have beat our own thieves in the shear volumes. Should we congratulate them? Pravda.ru forum. The place where truth hurts ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 8:50am
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I didn't read what you posted because I saw the url. Are you trying to pass off anything from pravada as serious? ------------- 
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 9:41am
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Well it could be the Daily Kos, NY Times, MSNBC, Huffington Post, or even the DNC Weekly News Release, all are just as believable. At least the Russians know a duck when they see it and hear it quack.
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Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 10:39am
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You're comparing pravada to the New York Times?
For an example. You are comparing http://english.pravda.ru/society/anomal/17-12-2008/106840-weird_females-0 - this to http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/05/30/world/AP-AS-Pakistan.html?_r=1&hp - this ? Seriously? -------------
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 10:58am
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Seriously, wow. You realize that pravda is essentially a giant joke, right OS? ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 12:07pm
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lol....I really do find the whole "socialism" argument to be simply asinine....I argued about it for a while....Now I can't even get myself to bother....
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 12:48pm
When did you become me? You are right though. Your argument aside, I don't understand how you lump in the NYT, one of the more time-tested newspapers in the country, with a blog and a TV station. |
mbro wrote:Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 1:52pm
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Duh, it's because they're both evil leftist Commies....I think the NYT is right up there with the ACLU on the list of organizations with undeserved bad raps....
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 2:31pm
If it makes the argument he wants it to, it's 100% credible. |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 2:36pm
| I am done eating taco bell for a while, it burns way too much on the way out. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 2:43pm
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Wait, OS is going to believe what Pravda says? Aren't they the same paper that used to talk about how the proletariat in the evil capitalist west were rising up against their oppressors every other week when it was still the USSR? ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 5:24pm
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Just an interesting look at how other nations see us. And the Russians have dealt with what Obama and crew are designing, all they did was change the Czars for Commisars, a differant form of elitist, I am still trying to comprehend the Government Motors (GM)take over and other grabs into the private sector by government. -------------
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Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 5:48pm
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I tend to prefer the onion for all my news. ------------- <Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules> |
Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 5:49pm
You'd rather the government give GM a lot of taxpayer money and NOT monitor what they do with it? That's even more stupid than letting GM go under and letting thousands lose jobs, entire lives, and upsetting the economy more than it is. ------------- <Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules> |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 7:50pm
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So we should look into why the government let, Hudson, Studebaker, Tucker, Rambler, etc vanish from the american market. When you make a product that does not sell, and the labor costs outweigh the actual materials cost, you have a problem. GM should die, or let each make seperate and make a go of it, review union contracts, and actually build a product that has quality, and people want. The truck and SUV sales are the backbone of thier sales and yet will be the first target of the Government for more "efficient" vehicles. Last Government motors gave the world the LADA and YUGO, both "great successes".
I am still looking for parts for my AMC 401 Javelin, another car company that vanished without government assistance. -------------
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 9:14pm
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The whole "swapped Czars for Commissars" bit is a cop out that pertains mainly to the Red Army and not the former Soviet Union as a whole.
Until I see collective farms and Gulags spring up, I'm gonna have to disagree with those who say we are going uber socialist. If anything, the Obama administration's stated plans are less socialist than those of FDR and JFK. Oh, and how's the VA and army pension treating you OS? You proud beacon of anti socialism. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 9:15pm
Pravda is the Russian version of the Weekly World News.
and I am sure OS wants GM to fail in his secret plot to become Kia Motors Spokesman. ------------- 
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 9:43pm
| America needs a Tommy Douglas. |
Posted By: Rock Slide
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 9:51pm
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Government should stay out of business like they should stay out of religion... They have their hands in too much. Its called "free enterprise" for a reason.
Make sure the drugs doctors pass out are safe.
Provide for the country's security.
Keep the roads in good shape.
Keep the water clean.
Keep the food pure.
And stay the hell out of my business and leave me alone.
------------- I bring annihilation and cheap red wine! |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 9:55pm
Wow. That's like saying that people in Russia read The National Enquirer to see how we see them. Wow... |
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 10:08pm
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Yeah, I wonder what kinda of insane howling would be coming from the right had the Obama Administration let the American car industry evaporate......Let's see, now it's socialism....they'd probably go with elitist negligence....
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 10:13pm
Pretty much |
Posted By: JohnnyCanuck
Date Posted: 30 May 2009 at 11:06pm
sweet, post pics. I had a 1973 Javelin, wished I still had it. ------------- Imagine there’s a picture of your favourite thing here. |
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 12:16am
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who woke up Rockslide? -------------
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 12:23am
For real! I'm expecting Evil Fran or Big Al to post after RS just did! ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 1:55am
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Holy rockslide.
Anywho. OS really? Pravada? -------------
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 1:55pm
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It is called "Diversity of Information" LoL, any foriegn journalist that praises Obama and his actions are lauded, yet question Obama that foriegn journalist is questioned. Pravda, is anymore just another rag out there, I just find it interesting that the journalist who more than likely lived under and understood the USSR, and now the current Federation, can make a comparison to what the Russian people expierienced and what he sees we are expieriencing. To not notice that comparison and form the question in your mind, is truely having your political blinders on.
I do not trust any US media anymore, the political bias is too far spun out of control. And this "Cult of Personality" appraoch towards Obama is truely getting old. -------------
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 2:46pm
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This thread is full of lolz. I always thought we linked Pravda here to make fun of it.
-------------  irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 3:04pm
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I kinda did, but it was an interesting view on how a Russian journalist sees America with a comparison to thier history. -------------
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 3:31pm
Again, this is laughable. Stop trying to give this joke of a newspaper credibility to suit your needs, they're no better than the Sun. Would you call them journalists that represent our views of foreign powers? No, because they make up stories about Bat-Boy marrying Bigfoot. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 4:12pm
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So, you totally discount the content based on your perception of the media presenting it. Pravda is one of the "premier" newspapers of the Russian Federation. To many here it may compare to the National Inquirer, but have you actually read an entire Pravda, and looked into the Russian idea of news. I imagine they look at the NY Times and London Times in the same manner based on thier perception of us. We have had our media turn into infotainment, with the tales of Jessica Simpson more understood than the workings of our government. Again just the presentation of the article, and the concept behind the writers understanding of our current situation, along with the comparison to Russian history should give a moments pause to anyone who actually can see through our medias presentation of current events. Our media has turned to almost pure "Cult of Personality" praise for the Obama's, in lieu of real issues, I wonder if we could compare our media and Venezuela's media approach to thier "President" and his policies. Even my "Journalism" professor commented on the change in our media's approach to the Obama's since the economy has not turned, a sense of misdirection more than hard news.
So, as I understand it, if you agree with the media that presents a subject it is "credible", if you do not agree with a media's presentation you instantly place it into the realm of the "National Inquirer" or FOX. Interesting way to look at news, and your understanding of it. -------------
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 4:19pm
| No OS, this has nothing to do with I agree with it or not, it has to do with a joke of a news source that you're defending because it fits your argument. It's legit if it agrees with you. Interesting way to look at news, and your understanding of it. |
Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 4:53pm
Uhh ... I don't think so... ------------- <Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules> |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 6:02pm
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http://www.kp.ru/ - http://www.kp.ru/
Komsomolskaya Pravda http://www.usatoday.com/ - http://www.usatoday.com/ USA Today And the difference is? -------------
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 9:23pm
I know some Russians who would disagree with you. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 10:00pm
I'll second this. Even in the USSR, Pravda was considered to be less than an actual news paper in the final decades of the cold war. Moskovskiye Novosti until last year when it went under, Novaya Gazeta, and Novy Mir have always been superior sources of news and considered "True" newspapers by the Russian people. Furthermore, the communist run Pravda was ordered dismantled after the fall of the soviet union. The Pravda that you see today is a tabloid owned and operated by a Greek company.
The "Pravda" which is considered to be the "Premier" newspaper by Russians is Moskovskaya pravda which can be seen at http://www.mospravda.ru/ - http://www.mospravda.ru/ It is considered to be one of, if not the best selling broadsheet in Russia. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: slackerr26
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 10:02pm
can you read russian? i dont think so ------------- 
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 10:48pm
I'll take "KP is entirely different from the Pravda linked in the original post" for $1000, Alex.
Just because they both have "Pravda" in their name does not make them the same. I wonder how many US newspapers have one or more of Sentinel, Journal, Tribune, Times, etc. in their name...
Pravda.ru is one step shy of the Onion. KP is an actual newspaper, as far as I know.
------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 11:30pm
Nah, Komsomolskaya Pravda is as much a tabloid these days as the National Enquirer is. The same issue of liquidation that hit "Pravda" itself hit KP as well since it was owned part and parcel by the Communist Party. It was always very tabloid-ish, but got even more so after the fall. Seriously, will you folks not just go read "Lenin's Tomb" and get this stuff straight? ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 11:30pm
Anyone surprised? Nope. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 9:43am
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Pravda joke has run its course I guess. But I still do not understand how the same groups who so contested one group of rich (Republicans in Congress and GW) are so ready to sell thier souls now to another group of rich legislators (Democrats). Nothing changes but the name tags, Czars to Commisars, one group of elites replacing another and the sheeple just continue on. It is trueoly a "Cult of Personality" we are experiencing now, and lets see how far it goes.
The comparisons to Russian history is there, and the observation had some merit, but the sheeple here are not that familiar with the Russian sequence of events that led to 1917. -------------
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 10:15am
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I'm not arguing that the situation is one of "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" OS, but comparing our current situation with that of the Russian Empire in 1917 is way over the top. It's so far over that it can't even be used for illustrative purposes.
We're not in a war of imperialist conquest that has cost the lives of millions of our citizens. We aren't conscripting our citizens to fight in said war. We don't have an uninvolved oligarch as our leader and we DO have representation in our government on all levels. Perhaps most importantly, we are a nation where the majority is literate and the opportunities for education and advancement of the common man are endless. The end of the Czars was actually a good thing in the long run OS. And if you think that it was a quick and easy swap from the Czars to the Soviets, you've got a lot of history to read. You can't even begin to draw non-ludicrous parallels between the US and the USSR, it's just not possible. Like I said, saying "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" is perfectly alright, but your analogy is just so far over the top it can't hold up even for illustrative purposes. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:12pm
| Just live evolution, I'm pretty sure the people crying about the US becoming Soviet America just don't understand. Case in point: FE's thread about the evil socialists closing the dealership, when it was really capitalism. |
Posted By: Rock Slide
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:13pm
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But you can't argue with the slide toward socializm and the media’s “everything is fine” mentality about it. You only hear what they want you to hear, just like in the old USSR… Oh... I always lerk. This thread was interesting. ------------- I bring annihilation and cheap red wine! |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:19pm
zzzz, huh, What?
Hey, I was sleeping, what did you go and bring me into the discussion for?
Yeah, we are now a marxist nation. Whoo Hoo, Pass me my little euro-car, I gotta go get in line for the doctor... ------------- They tremble at my name... 
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:22pm
Hahahahhahahahahhahahhaha, are you serious? Come to Canada some time, I have a feeling you don't get to see how the world actually works much. |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:24pm
Come on Hooptie... MY point in that thread, (which you obviously missed) is that the Presidents administration PICKED who closed and who else was GIVEN their dealerships. (with an obvious bias against republican dealers)
Sure looks like reparations... ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:27pm
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Oh, alright. So you think this was all a big OMGLIBRUL conspiracy to stick it to Republican car dealer owners. Why does everything have to be "us against them"? ------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:29pm
FE, did you ever think that maybe there were more republican dealerships closed because the vast majority of the dealerships were republican and there were only a few democratic contributors in the mix? ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:31pm
| Thats a tall order Tallen. Baby steps with this one. |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:45pm
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http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/05/dealergate-statistical-evidence-that.html - http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/05/dealergate-statistical-evidence-that.html ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:48pm
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http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/05/closing-chryslers-dealerships-readers.html - http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/05/closing-chryslers-dealerships-readers.html
http://mainstreamconservative.blogspot.com/2009/05/dealergate-update.html - http://mainstreamconservative.blogspot.com/2009/05/dealergate-update.html ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:48pm
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Yay for blogs. /s ------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:50pm
| Haha, so blogspot is acceptable now? Let me go do some searching for you FE and find 100's of blogs that contradict everything you believe. Does that make it true? No. Anyone can have a blogspot. |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:52pm
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So if the media is lazy and doesn't do its job... But, someone else does, you ignore it?
Interesting. ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:53pm
Sure I can. We are far less "socialist" than we were in, say, the 50s or 60s. There is no "slide," just minor wiggling back and forth. Moreover, none of what is going on is anywhere close to "socialism." ------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 3:56pm
You're a joke FE, grow up. If ANYONE posted a blogspot, or even CNN link that you disagreed with you would be instantly raving about how it's too biased, or not credible, but you can do it with no problem. You're a joke. |
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 4:02pm
Any other conspiracy theories you would like to throw out there, based on improper statistical analysis of insufficient data, with gaps filled by unsupported conjecture?
I also love how these conspiracy theories always would require the participation of large numbers of people who have conflicting motivations, but would somehow get together to lay elaborate plans with any record of their discussions.
Good stuff.
I am all for looking for the angle, but at some point you need to apply some critical thinking to the crap people are selling you.
------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 4:07pm
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Oh, come on...
I remember the threads about how Bush was responsible for 9/11.
Just let me have my fun... With how slow business is, (just layed off 2 more...) it gives me something to do... ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 4:13pm
If you do, then you also remember my position on those conspiracy theories as well.
------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 4:17pm
If anything that means you should be even more conscious of the fact that you look like a clueless wingnut when you post things like this, which are proven to be paranoid rantings within minutes. |
Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 4:36pm
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I'm surprised a facepalm picture hasn't presented itself yet. This thread is just chock full o' fail.
------------- oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey Me: But only if they're hungary Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth |
Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 5:26pm
------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 6:03pm
Ah, but that doesn't count, that's not a thread-specific facepalm. Anyways, my dad had Glenn Beck on during dinner just now and guess what he was crying about? Yep, Pravda! Do they just not research these things before they talk about them or do they just not care as long as they can make it seemingly prove their point? Either way it's pathetic. ------------- oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey Me: But only if they're hungary Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 6:07pm
| Of course not, it's Glenn Beck, a bobbleheaded pundit. Find something controversial, blow it out of proportion, done. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 8:40pm
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Well it was kinda like Dan Rather and CBS, if you needed something made up to fit your point it was OK, as long as it was anti-Bush. I remmember the bobble heads of the left laughing with glee, till they were called on the story, and then the "oh well it could of happened" defense. So one of our major news sources now lends to its credibility problems, unless they are still in the "all praise Obama" mode, then they are praised by your legions of sheeple. Racheal Maddow and Chris whats his toes are even far more off the wall, but since they express the current themes as required, they are believable. Please. -------------
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 9:13pm
| All pundits are extremists, they just bring up talking points with no substance. Sure it can be a jump off point for conversation but just regurgitating what they say is mindless and idiotic, and you're JUST as guilty of it OS. |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 9:48pm
Hold on. Who said it was OK for the Bush story to falsely run? Sources please. Who ever said "Oh well it could have happened?" Sources please. You cannot, with an honest face, say that everyone just let that slip by. Dan Rather retired due to the situation, and CBS fired the editors and reporters responsible for not verifying it and letting it get on the air. That incident is now it's own chapter in Journalism Ethics textbooks. I know, I kept mine after the class was over. |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 9:52pm
| /me grabs a seat |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 10:12pm
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Choop, can you pass the butter for the popcorn? ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 01 June 2009 at 11:09pm
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Yes the matter was resolved, but how long did it take and Dan is still defending his actions as true and justified. So the whole issue begs the question, if one set of editors and reporters manipulated the news to fit thier agenda, do we not at least question the remainder, both right as well as left. Many here question the right and sheepishly believe the left for it fits thier agenda.
Free Enterprise economy vs. Nationalizing vast portions of our economy, and no one sees anything wrong with the GM fiasco and the Obama administration approach to the banking industry. Just another set of crooks replacing the old crop of crooks, and you can not replace the government crook as easily. -------------
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 3:37am
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OS, put the tin-foil hat down.
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 6:47am
The Administration has an ownership stake in GM. That is socialist, along with several other measures the Obama Administration is looking to implement, such as the widening of the "safety net" for unemployment benefits and other social programs. The fact that they're called "social programs" isn't by mistake; it's because these are socialist programs. Very few on either the left or the right would want the country to be 100% Free Market, or 100% Socialist. What is argued about is exactly where that line is drawn, and exactly "how free" or "how socialist" we want to be. Denying the fact that some of Obama's actions are indeed socialistic undermines serious discussion on just what should and shouldn't be socialized by distracting people with the same old "Which is better?" debate. ------------- 
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 10:24am
 -------------
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 1:41pm
You are missing Whale's point, OS. The Dan Rather thing was a HUGE deal. The NYT/Glass thing was a HUGE deal. People were fired for those incidents - high-profile people with long careers. The news was fully a-gaga over these issues for months and years - like Whale said, it is in his textbook.
This is the case because by and large these news sources are reliable. Perceived or real slant aside, it is generally the case that facts reported on ABC are true. And if they are not true, it is generally due to innocent error after due diligence.
And as a result, when actual gross negligence or malfeasance is discovered, it is a really, really big deal.
Compare this to the behavior of the various pundits out there - Glenn Beck being a fine example. He/they casually spout unchecked "facts" and outright falsehoods on a regular basis, with no apparent effort at complete reporting or fact-checking of any kind. When Glenn Beck throws out another falsehood or twisted fact, we all just yawn, because we saw it five times yesterday.
As much as you would like to be, it is simply objectively FALSE that Glenn Beck is just as reliable as ABC news anchors. ------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 1:57pm
Granted we are playing with semantics here, but if this is your standard for "socialism" then most countries on the planet is socialist, and has been for centuries. This is true because you have reduced that term to the point of losing all meaning.
The government owns 100% of a competitor to FedEx. Socialism?
The government owns numerous competitors to Blackwater. Socialism?
The government owns endless competitors to parochial schools. Socialism?
And, of course, the government owns billions of dollars worth of countless other "private sector" companies, both domestic and foreign. The government doesn't keep all of its money in an Uncle Scrooge-type vault - the money is invested, in short-term and long-term investments. Socialism?
Your etymology-fu is weak. By this theory, my neighborhood "ice cream social" is a socialist event, and NYC "socialites" are really just socialists.
Moreover, we have fewer and weaker "social programs" in this country now than we have had since WWII.
Even by other standards, our country is far less socialist now than before. Our top tax rates are lower, the rich/poor gap is far greater, the government employs fewer people, and so forth. All the proposals Obama has on the table add up to mere tinkering, and will still not take us anywhere near the socialism that OS grew up with. The only exception would be some of the more aggressive healthcare proposals, but even there most of the proposals are fairly modest.
Like I said - anybody who thinks Obama is a socialist in any meaningful sense of the word has no real experience with actual socialism.
Anybody who wants 100% anything is a fool. I agree that this is all a matter of line-drawing - I most certainly do NOT agree that the scale goes from "free" to "socialist." "Freedom" is irrelevant to socialism. You might as well have your scale go from "socialist" to "bacon."
Using inflammatory labels like "socialistic" undermines serious discussion, because Glenn Beck-watching fools think we are about to become the USSR. Yes, much of what Obama is proposing would add to the "socialism percentage" of the US, but only in such a tiny fractional amount as to be meaningless.
The programs should be judged on their own individual merit, not based on whether they fit into some arbitrarily labeled category.
------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 2:06pm
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Talking ethics and media in the same sentance is quite preposterous... http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/05/04/breaking-obama-gets-positive-press-coverage/ - http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/05/04/breaking-obama-gets-positive-press-coverage/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/31/AR2009053102079.html - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/31/AR2009053102079.html
http://mediamatters.org/columns/200906020003 - http://mediamatters.org/columns/200906020003
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/053109.html - http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/053109.html ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 2:08pm
| Again, go Tommy Douglas! |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 2:16pm
Our country has rounded a corner on socialism. Look at the percentage of people employed by the government...
Look at the government dictating how companies will be carved up, and how they take over ownership.
Look at inflation in the next few years... ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 2:20pm
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Also, while the US will never be 100% socialist, why are people so terrified of socialist tendancies, even if its a super moderate leftward shift? One example = healthcare. It's been proven to work around the world, so why are people so afraid of it? You could still go to a pricey dr. if you're too good for the provided medicare, what's the issue? Taking care of your citizens seems like a nice move to me, I love it.
Again, thats just in general, no particular situation at the moment. |
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 2:32pm
You may not think USPS is a very good competitor, but you are dodging if you are claiming that USPS is not a competitor of FeEx. FedEx and UPS came into being SPECIFICALLY to compete with USPS.
So, socialism is ok if it is a "true" use of the government? Good to know.
And please point me to the official list of "true" uses of government.
Fascinating commentary - and completely irrelevant. The issue isn't whether it is wasteful, but whether public schooling (including public funding of private schools and universities) should be scrapped in toto, seing as how it is socialist and all.
What - no comment on this one?
Yes, let's: http://www.census.gov/statab/hist/HS-50.pdf - http://www.census.gov/statab/hist/HS-50.pdf
History. You should read some.
First, please do provide a prediction of what the US inflation will be. I would like to know.
Second, what does inflation have to do with socialism? "Socialism" does in fact NOT just mean "stuff I don't like."
------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 2:34pm
Because it doesn't work... You don't see the patients here from your country, or from europe. The patients with money come here for a reason. We have great doctors, and even better equipment. In EVERY hospital, not just the hospital the government can afford to put it in...
Plus, I don't want the government deciding I'm "too sick" to bother with treatment, which always happens with socialized medicine. The expensive treatments are eliminated, regardless of the effectiveness.
Essentially what you get is a doctor who is so sorry, he/she can't get a real job in America with tons of pay, so they use their medical degree at the lowest pay possible... Yeah, real good health care their, I want a brain surgeon that is making minimum wage... Oh, wait, the brain surgeons are not at this hospital... You have to wait to see them, and drive across the country.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/11579 - http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/11579
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 2:53pm
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Yeah...except that's not the reality of the situation AT ALL. Seriously, travel more.
Anyone who actually knows want to fill me in? |
Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 4:45pm
I vote for bacon  ------------- oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey Me: But only if they're hungary Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 5:29pm
Everything you said was correct, and to continue the point: The Dan Rather/Killian incident is in in the chapter of the ethics book dealing with fact checking and the horrors of being lazy. The Killian incident happened not because the guilty staff of 60 Minutes was trying to sneak one over on the American people by passing off bad info. What did they have to gain by that? Especially since the true facts of the situation came to light so easily. The incident happened because people got lazy. They got what sounded like a good tip, thought it would sound exciting, and ran with it making extremely gross assumptions of fact. Because of those assumptions, the basic interviews, research and background that would have caught the fake documents easily, never happened. And, in turn, all the people who were SUPPOSED to make sure the interviews, research and backgrounds got done, they got fired. To sum it up, what happened wasn't some evil liberal media conspiracy. It was moronic lazy journalists. One is not any better than the other, but at least understand why and how something like this happened.
So you link two blogs, one op-ed with some pretty bad logical fallacies, Consortium? ...sigh... |
Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 8:35pm
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How exactly is comparing a Free Market to a Socialism irrelevant? They are both a form of economic system. We have a combination of Free Market with socialist programs, forming a mixed economy. Apples to apples.
Any program in which the government takes peoples money, and then redistributes it to other people (IE: Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security) is a socialist one. You can nit-pick the way I worded it, but these "social programs" are in fact socialistic. Furthermore, I'm quite sure you understood exactly what I meant, but like to argue semantics - no harm there I suppose; I'll just be more careful with my wording in the future. -------------
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 9:21pm
Seriously, Not wanting to derail this thread at all (  ) but I'm just as irritated as ever by your response on this. And by the way as a person who like the Canadians has a national health service I need to point out I have repeatedly given you my opinion and disagreements to this argument just to have you ignore them. If you make a point as fact then at least acknowledge replies you get. (even if you disagree with them funnily enough) Anyhow.. OK the system isn't perfect. TBH the NHS here is in a bit of a mess. But at the same time I have not paid a penny for any of the treatment i've had. I recieved this treatment quickly and effectively. (yeah I know it enrages me too) My city alone has at least 5 public hospitals and more private ones. And I can sleep at night knowing that if anyone I knew or didn't know got sick or hurt they would be looked after. And not one person I've ever spoken to. Even people who have private insurance has disagreed with it. And the link you posted pretty much undermines your point. It just says that Canada isn't particulaly good at administering a health care system that has been "proven" (by said web page) to work. I really have to agree with Choop here. Travel more because if you get your knowledge of the far lands beyond your shores from the same place you get your news then we're off to a bad start on this one. |
Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 10:14pm
There should be some sort of law requiring all citizens to travel to at least one foreign country to study their government and people. Clearly our education system is not doing its job and nobody has any idea how anything works in the world (or even at home in most cases). There are some fine examples on this forum and I encounter more every day, unfortunately. ------------- oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey Me: But only if they're hungary Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 11:05pm
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Well traveled, have lived in socialist styled economies, where rationing and taxation leads to some pretty bizarre behavior. Junking for example, in Germany where when it is tax time it costs less to put your belongings out on the curb and buy new after taxman inspects home, than to have it value taxed in the home. There are no closets in German homes for you are taxed by rooms not space, so a closet is considered a room, so that is why schunks are all the rage.
And in Honduras where you bury your money literally in the back yard, so the government can not tax (confiscate) it from the banks whenever they have an economic crisis. And having looked at and walked through the old East Berlin in its day, a few times, there is a very distinct difference in the way the people live in these socialist paradises. -------------
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 11:15pm
Ah - I missed an important word your earlier post: "market", as in "free market" and not just "free."
That makes a bit more sense. Still, though, that just introduces another misunderstanding: That socialism and free markets are mutually exclusive, that they are opposite ends of a single spectrum. This is not the case.
A cap-and-trade system, for instance, limits the freedom of the markets, yet it also harnesses the power of the markets to serve society. Compare that to a flat out "cap" system, for instance.
Similarly, the USPS does not prohibit competition - it provides competition, and encourages competition.
Even some restrictions that are directly aimed at market behavior are the opposite of socialism: anti-trust laws. Prohibing abusive monopolies restricts the freedom of the market players, but by doing so it makes the markets more competitive.
By your definition, every single law, every single government function, is a socialist feature. Ultimately, all of those things restrict market freedoms and redistributes wealth, either directly or indirectly.
I don't necessarily disagree with the definition, but I note that this makes "socialism" a whole lot less scary than people make it out to be. It just makes it obvious and rational.
------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 11:40pm
Yeah, me too.
I once lived in this one place, where the tax benefits for charitable donations were so good that people would give their old stuff away rather than sell it.
And then businesses would pretend to be churches just to avoid taxation. Pretty awesome.
And then there was the place where a basement counted as footage for property tax assessments only if the windows were a certain size, so houses would be designed with windows just a smidge smaller than that.
Oh, and this one place taxed income from investments less than income earned from actually working, so people would just hoard money instead of working real jobs.
Silly, huh.
------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: JohnnyCanuck
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 11:43pm
It's there by the way. I've never had to experience any medical treatment in the USA so I can't speak about it, other than to copy and paste an article like you did. I can however speak from my own experience, and I never got the sense from any doctors over the years that they; -were sorry they couldn't get a real job in America (or even wanted to for that matter) -were using their medical degree at the lowest possible pay -were making minimum wage If you're scientific research is accurate, then why are american doctors working in Canada. Surely they must know how much everything is better in the USA. Maybe you can forward them this specific post of yours and prevent them from making such a huge mistake. Little arrogant isn't it to think that only the USA has the best Dr's, the best equipment and the best treatment. I don't even need to copy and paste anything to support it, your fellow citizens have done it by the millions. ------------- Imagine there’s a picture of your favourite thing here. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 11:44pm
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If I remmember correctly the Social Security program was a limited assistance system, and designed to be replaced in 1943, but the war side lined that and it became a perminant program. The Great Society Programs of the 60's made government dependance a seperate economy within the National economy, where it was more profitable to have children out of wedlock and the father(s) not in the home, than have a traditional family. (we called it "Breeding for Dollars") Now we have third generation dependancy and no relief in sight, just more dependancy.
We have sold off our economy for cheap products, made by cheap labor, something we do not have in America anymore. Labor costs in some cases are close to 30% of product cost. We do not allow ourselves to be energy independant to appease the enviornmentalists at the cost of our economy, and the "crooks" that ran bussiness are being singled out. Now once you Nationalize any part of the economy and replace the crooked CEO with crooked governemntal officials the only difference is you can not "fire" the government. A Classic, selling off Hummer to the Chinese (US gov contract to produce mil vehicles now goes to....) Can't wait for the new GM lines, hybrid POS's that as several videos show are simular to the Yugo as highway deathtraps. Ralph Nader made his career on the Corvair, wonder who will challenge the government on the safety standards of these new eco-vehicles. -------------
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 02 June 2009 at 11:53pm
That will be so much worse than the SUVs and gas guzzlers that were selling like hotcakes and keeping them in business... ...Oh wait... |
Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 03 June 2009 at 6:38am
And that was largely the point of my post, though I may not have stated it clearly enough. Many people on the left will deny that any of Barack Obama's actions are in any way socialistic, while people on the right will scream that we're heading towards a "socialist utopia." The whole discussion would be better off if people on the left stopped denying that many programs they want to implement would indeed be socialistic, and opening an honest debate on why socialism is not wrong in all instances. By denying that certain programs are socialist, the left secedes the point that socialism is bad. Why deny something that's good, right? It's too bad your average American sees only the opposing sides, and has difficulty realizing there can be a middle ground. -------------
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Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 03 June 2009 at 9:22am
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^^^^ Then I believe we are in full agreement. ------------- "E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
Posted By: Ken Majors
Date Posted: 03 June 2009 at 11:00am
Quoted because this is EXACTLY how I see it. ------------- RLTW |
Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 03 June 2009 at 11:08am
-------------
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 03 June 2009 at 11:08am
Why should they keep the food pure? That is run mostly by private businesses. Why should they care what drugs doctors pass out? It should be your choice because healthcare is a business. You can pay for the better drugs and care. ------------- Que pasa? 
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 03 June 2009 at 11:10am
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Jmac, there needs to be some kind of regulation, aka the FDA. ------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |