uh oh... tippmann getting sued?
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=181987
Printed Date: 09 March 2026 at 3:25pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: uh oh... tippmann getting sued?
Posted By: procarbinefreak
Subject: uh oh... tippmann getting sued?
Date Posted: 07 June 2009 at 1:40am
Heckler & Koch, Inc. v. Tippman Sports LLC et al
RFC Case Number: T-H09-560T
Court Case Number: 1:09-cv-00560-WTL-TAB
File Date: Wednesday, May 06, 2009
Plaintiff: Heckler & Koch, Inc.
Plaintiff Counsel: Brian J. McGinnis, Darlene R. Seymour of Continental Enterprises
Defendant: Tippman Sports LLC
Tigerstripe Paintball LLC
Cause: 15:1114 Trademark Infringement
Court: Indiana Southern District Court
Judge: Judge William T. Lawrence
Referred To: Magistrate Judge Tim A. Baker
|
Replies:
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 07 June 2009 at 1:43am
|
Because of the overall look of the a-5?
|
Posted By: ammolord
Date Posted: 07 June 2009 at 2:12am
details?
------------- PSN Tag: AmmoLord XBL: xXAmmoLordXx
~Minister of Tinkering With Things That Go "BOOM!"(AKA Minister of Munitions)~
|
Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 07 June 2009 at 2:20am
I can't find anything on a legitimate site about this...?
-------------
|
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 07 June 2009 at 6:38am
Good
------------- Que pasa?
|
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 07 June 2009 at 7:38am
Saw this yesterday on the Nation, too. I mean the A5 is similar, but not that similar...
-------------
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection
|
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 07 June 2009 at 8:38am
They probably shouldn't have knocked off another companies intellectual property.
-------------
|
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 07 June 2009 at 10:28pm
haha, H&K is pulling a smart parts.
------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
|
Posted By: The Guy
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 2:01am
usafpilot07 wrote:
haha, H&K is pulling a smart parts.
|
no they arn't.
They are suing someone for making a look-alike of their gun.
If they were pulling a smatparts, they would patent a "trigger operated gun" and then sue everyone.
------------- http://www.anomationanodizing.com - My Site
|
Posted By: bravecoward
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 2:33am
they probably google searched mp5s an found a bunch of milsim a5s
-------------
|
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 3:47am
bravecoward wrote:
they probably google searched mp5s an found a bunch of milsim a5s
|
Apparently though they are in the process of suing a large group of manufactures such as Ben Tippmann as well as some airsoft makers.
|
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 8:02am
Interesting, the A-5 as designed by Brad Stewart took the basic form of the MP5, and the sights are the only direct copy. Those of you that remmember myself and Brad play tested the prototypes at a game in Kentucky. That was my first comment was its resemblance to the MP5.
Now in the airsoft community the MP5 is a comman weapon used. And they are an exact copy of the weapon. Several manufacturers make MP5's in various forms and even the trademerks are present on the weapons. So this in itself is an interesting string of events.
I have looked to see if airsoft manufacturers have licensed the copy of the MP5, for I know to get the correct markings and design of Colt weapons the manufacturers bought a license to market the guns. My M16 has correct Colt markings, and my M14 has correct Springfield Armory markings.
The paintball A5 is close but not a dircet copy, so the reasoning to me is not that clear. Even with the BT front stock group, the A5 is still not a direct copy as the airsoft MP5's are.
Classic Army an airsoft manufacturer has issued a statement that they had purchased a license to manufacture HK, Colt, and other direct copies of real weapons. So my question is, is a license required for a simular but not direct copy, many paintball guns have roots in military designs, is the door going to be opened to kill the milsim market?
-------------
|
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 12:13pm
Heckler & Koch, Inc.
HAHAHA! 
|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 12:32pm
I think H&K is going to have a tough time winning this one. They haven't taken enough steps in the past to prevent the use of the MP5's image or style from being used for decades. Case in point? Video games have been using the MP5's design/model for decades and have only changed the name of the weapon and have never been sued by H&K for infringement upon their IP. Furthermore, their have been numerous companies to not only make look-alike paintball guns and airsoft guns, but water-guns and even actual firearms as well.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 12:40pm
Rofl_Mao wrote:
Heckler & Koch, Inc.
HAHAHA! 
| How is that funny?
-------------
 irc.esper.net #paintball
|
Posted By: The Guy
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 12:44pm
Yeah, I don't really see them having any ground for this, unless they have a specific patent on the rotating rear site. Other than that, the A5...... KINDA... looks like an MP5, but it has to be modded with aftermarket parts to really be considered a clone.
On the other hand, Ben Tippmann with the TM7, that might be an easier target. Maybe HK should do what SP did, go after smaller companies first to set president so its easier to go after large companies. Like SP going after ICD first.
------------- http://www.anomationanodizing.com - My Site
|
Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 2:10pm
tallen702 wrote:
I think H&K is going to have a tough time winning this one. They haven't taken enough steps in the past to prevent the use of the MP5's image or style from being used for decades. Case in point? Video games have been using the MP5's design/model for decades and have only changed the name of the weapon and have never been sued by H&K for infringement upon their IP. Furthermore, their have been numerous companies to not only make look-alike paintball guns and airsoft guns, but water-guns and even actual firearms as well. |
That's a good point. (your second sentence)
-------------
|
Posted By: slackerr26
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 2:20pm
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 2:26pm
tallen702 wrote:
Video games have been using the MP5's design/model for decades and have only changed the name of the weapon and have never been sued by H&K for infringement upon their IP. |
But is there a difference between pixels in a video game and a physical, tangible good?
|
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 4:54pm
oldsoldier wrote:
many paintball guns have roots in military designs, is the door going to be opened to kill the milsim market? |
Hopefully.
------------- Que pasa?
|
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 5:05pm
jmac3 wrote:
oldsoldier wrote:
many paintball guns have roots in military designs, is the door going to be opened to kill the milsim market? |
Hopefully.
| Truth, because what the PB market needs right now is to alienate 50%+ of it's players.
|
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 5:06pm
Milsim is not 50%+ of paintball players.
Woodsball players are 50%+.
There is a difference.
------------- Que pasa?
|
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 5:09pm
|
And what percentage of Woodsball players lean towards milsim style markers?? Maybe 80-90%?
|
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 5:17pm
Probably alot less. Most people just want to go out and shoot their buddies. Could care less if it looks like a real rifle.
Seeing as how most money in paintball comes from people who never buy guns, I see no issue in doing away with milsim.
------------- Que pasa?
|
Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 5:25pm
Or the fact that there is no mark up on guns.
-------------
|
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 5:33pm
|
Considering I only play woodsball and attend scenarios/big games which are typically run with a military theme, I can say there are a LOT of markers on the field that are very riflelike. Would these players continue to play if they couldn't have a marker that looked more gunlike than space pistolish? Maybe, maybe not. Are markers like the AB, A5, X7, SP-1, TM7 bringing players into the market? Absolutely. They brought me in. My brother too. And by the amount of milsimed out A5's I see at most games I attend, I would venture to guess it does the same for a lot of others.
For the record, I don't own a gun either and have no intention to, but the first several markers I put together were very milsimy. Granted, I have since sold most of them and gotten more into AGD lately, but they are still what brought me in.
|
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 5:35pm
|
It won't kill the industry, they will just need to get permission first.
|
Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 5:41pm
If you want milsim, go play airsoft.
-------------
|
Posted By: ammolord
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 5:42pm
IMPULS3. wrote:
If you want milsim, go play airsoft. |
YES!
------------- PSN Tag: AmmoLord XBL: xXAmmoLordXx
~Minister of Tinkering With Things That Go "BOOM!"(AKA Minister of Munitions)~
|
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 5:46pm
oldpbnoob wrote:
Considering I only play woodsball and attend scenarios/big games which are typically run with a military theme, I can say there are a LOT of markers on the field that are very riflelike. Would these players continue to play if they couldn't have a marker that looked more gunlike than space pistolish? Maybe, maybe not. Are markers like the AB, A5, X7, SP-1, TM7 bringing players into the market? Absolutely. They brought me in. My brother too. And by the amount of milsimed out A5's I see at most games I attend, I would venture to guess it does the same for a lot of others.
|
1. Scenarios with a military theme would in fact draw out mil simmers. 2. The ones that play for the "realism", probably not. 3. Bringing people into the sport? Doubtful. Making them purchase those guns because they look cool? Probably 4. Because it looks cool. Poeple would still play without them like that I am sure.
I would in fact venture to say(without facts obviously) that milsim is hurting the sport. The guns cost entirely too much money when they are milsimmed out. Young players who think they want their gun to look awesome waster money on that rather than paint. Sites like Specops sell "sniper" barrels to make money without actually making them useful. Not to mention the amount of kids who think red dot sights are helpful in paintball and waste that.
Without Milsim guns a kid could buy a stock tippmann 98 and a mask for about $200, and have money left over to play. Rather than the kid who has enough for an X7 or something and blows it all on that.
------------- Que pasa?
|
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 6:12pm
jmac3 wrote:
I would in fact venture to say(without facts obviously) that milsim is hurting the sport. The guns cost entirely too much money when they are milsimmed out. Young players who think they want their gun to look awesome waster money on that rather than paint. Sites like Specops sell "sniper" barrels to make money without actually making them useful. Not to mention the amount of kids who think red dot sights are helpful in paintball and waste that.
Without Milsim guns a kid could buy a stock tippmann 98 and a mask for about $200, and have money left over to play. Rather than the kid who has enough for an X7 or something and blows it all on that.
|
1. At least you admit your statement is totally baseless.
2. You can get an AB with an egrip and a decent mask for $200 all day long. Still less than you would pay for a lot of electros.
3. Hmm. I've seen plenty of kids walking around with just as much money dumped into their Spyders, Eteks, Ions, Vibes, Egos, etc. Pimping out your marker is a guy thing, kinda like putting $3000 spinners on a 10 year old Blazer. Does it make it go faster? No, but it looks good.
4. And $300 ano jobs do exactly what for the performance of a marker? Milling. Point being same as above really.
See number 2.
|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 6:21pm
agentwhale007 wrote:
tallen702 wrote:
Video games have been using the MP5's design/model for decades and have only changed the name of the weapon and have never been sued by H&K for infringement upon their IP. | But is there a difference between pixels in a video game and a physical, tangible good? |
IP is IP. The likeness of a particular product be it tangible or intangible is still the likeness and belongs to the one that holds the patent/copyright/trademark.
Tippmann's case would be furthered by the fact that if H&K goes after them on a physical front, they would have to prove that they have the trademark rights to the silhouette of their MP-5 series firearms (their trade mark is a red 'HK' signet btw) Otherwise, it would come down to patent law, and the A-5 works NOTHING like the H&K MP5. If they were to go after them for one particular part of the patents (front charging handle) then they'd be screwed because the CETME rifles had it prior to H&K.
It's a bad case for H&K against Tippmann Sports. They're actually hurting a bit in this economy. Their assault rifles aren't flying off the shelves like their lower-cost competitors' are. They may be looking for a way to make some quick cash to keep investors happy. Who knows.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 6:31pm
jmac, did you really just make an argument that milsim markers cost too much? REALLY?
What bargain basement do you suggest I start purchasing high end markers from in order to do my part to eliminate milsim and save paintball?
I can't believe I've been taking the expensive way out with an Alpha black and half a case of paint instead of shooting 4 or 5 cases out of something multicolored with more electronics than my car.
------------- ?
|
Posted By: bravecoward
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 6:43pm
you must drive one crappy car.
-------------
|
Posted By: ctchofday
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 6:58pm
bravecoward wrote:
you must drive one crappy car.
|
i lol'd a bit
anyway, this case seems pretty ridiculous. but oh well.
------------- Xbl:PhantomReign97
'99 Snpr II, ½d Karni, E-Orracle, 2k4 Spstk, 2k5 Prstk, PMR SE, A5, 98
|
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 7:54pm
Maybe once the milsim market is legally destroyed the next step would be to go after the combat pajama crowd that play with the pretty purple and pink markers, and run around blow up dolls.
The "cheating" in speedball and paintball overall lead many milsimr's to drift over to airsoft, and we appreciate those of you that do feel the need to cheat, stay in speedball/paintball. That paintball TV series was a comic fest of wipers and whinners. We welcome quality players in airsoft and regularly BAN the cheaters for 30days/60days/then perminantly. That is the difference in the sports, honor. Most of our groups keep detailed rosters and a data base of players from across the country, we know when you been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake, or you do not play, plain and simple. Reason #1 I gave up paintball, was the degree of cheating, and the attitudes that developed within the sport.
-------------
|
Posted By: Lao Yan Qiang
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 11:00pm
ammolord wrote:
IMPULS3. wrote:
If you want milsim, go play airsoft. |
YES! |
Years ago when airsoft was still mostly in Japan and just beginning to
show up in the States, I never could understand why anyone would ever
want to play airsoft when you could play paintball. But I started
playing more on the left coast and started running into guys like you
two. I look back and see how many people paintball drove away because
they didn't want guns and camo to be part of the "sport" and it makes
me want to puke. You guys do too.
I suppose you think Tippmann got to be the world greatest paintball
manufacturer by making markers? They make guns. Guns you play Army
with. I'm pretty sure it is the subject of this thread.
|
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 11:03pm
Reb Cpl wrote:
jmac, did you really just make an argument that milsim markers cost too much? REALLY?
What bargain basement do you suggest I start purchasing high end markers from in order to do my part to eliminate milsim and save paintball?
I can't believe I've been taking the expensive way out with an Alpha black and half a case of paint instead of shooting 4 or 5 cases out of something multicolored with more electronics than my car.
|
If you're shooting 4 or 5 cases, there is seriously something wrong with your game. I can survive a full night of play for a half a case, or a case if I'm feeling like playing in the back.
-------------
|
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 11:06pm
oldpbnoob wrote:
jmac3 wrote:
I would in fact venture to say(without facts obviously) that milsim is hurting the sport. The guns cost entirely too much money when they are milsimmed out. Young players who think they want their gun to look awesome waster money on that rather than paint. Sites
like Specops sell "sniper" barrels to make money without actually
making them useful. Not to mention the amount of kids who think red dot
sights are helpful in paintball and waste that.
Without
Milsim guns a kid could buy a stock tippmann 98 and a mask for about
$200, and have money left over to play. Rather than the kid who has
enough for an X7 or something and blows it all on that.
|
1. At least you admit your statement is totally baseless.
2. You can get an AB with an egrip and a decent mask for $200 all day long. Still less than you would pay for a lot of electros.
3. Hmm. I've seen plenty of kids walking
around with just as much money dumped into their Spyders, Eteks, Ions,
Vibes, Egos, etc. Pimping out your marker is a guy thing, kinda like
putting $3000 spinners on a 10 year old Blazer. Does it make it go
faster? No, but it looks good.
4. And $300 ano jobs do exactly what for the performance of a marker? Milling. Point being same as above really.
See number 2. |
$300 Ano jobs are few and far between. Milling also pretty rare. I
admit I did not even think to look at the price of the alpha black. I
looked at A5, X7, and TM7 for my price comparisons.
Yes people dump as much money into Spyders, and they are also dumb.
Companies should be making players get to the field rather than
stealing their money for useless upgrades. Companies making Milsim
stuff just seem to be the biggest perpetrators. Oh and before you go
off on how expensive electros are, let me say that anything after 07 is
completely useless.
I can get an Ion for $160. It is more efficient, will break less paint,
and shoots smoother than an AB. I am not talking speed of shooting at
all, because that does not matter.
Reb Cpl wrote:
jmac, did you really just make an argument that milsim markers cost too much? REALLY?
What bargain basement do you suggest I start purchasing high end markers from in order to do my part to eliminate milsim and save paintball?
I can't believe I've been taking the expensive way out with an Alpha black and half a case of paint instead of shooting 4 or 5 cases out of something multicolored with more electronics than my car.
|
1. Yes Milsim markers(minus the alpha black apparently) cost entirely too much. 2. I never said high end markers will save paintball. Tournaments hurt paintball because every stupid little kid wants a deal on paint because they think they earned it by playing a tournament in their life. 3.I shoot a half a case of paint when playing recball with my ego or matrix. I have never shot 4 cases of paint anywhere other than POSSIBLY at NPPL. In fact I'll tell you right now I didn't shoot that much because I just did the math.
Also, I forgot. High end guns aren't marketed to new kids.
------------- Que pasa?
|
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 11:08pm
Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 11:25pm
Lao Yan Qiang wrote:
ammolord wrote:
IMPULS3. wrote:
If you want milsim, go play airsoft. | YES! | Years ago when airsoft was still mostly in Japan and just beginning to show up in the States, I never could understand why anyone would ever want to play airsoft when you could play paintball. But I started playing more on the left coast and started running into guys like you two. I look back and see how many people paintball drove away because they didn't want guns and camo to be part of the "sport" and it makes me want to puke. You guys do too. I suppose you think Tippmann got to be the world greatest paintball manufacturer by making markers? They make guns. Guns you play Army with. I'm pretty sure it is the subject of this thread. | You made an account, just to make that post? That's cute.
-------------
|
Posted By: ammolord
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 11:27pm
IMPULS3. wrote:
Lao Yan Qiang wrote:
ammolord wrote:
IMPULS3. wrote:
If you want milsim, go play airsoft. |
YES! | Years ago when airsoft was still mostly in Japan and just beginning to show up in the States, I never could understand why anyone would ever want to play airsoft when you could play paintball. But I started playing more on the left coast and started running into guys like you two. I look back and see how many people paintball drove away because they didn't want guns and camo to be part of the "sport" and it makes me want to puke. You guys do too. I suppose you think Tippmann got to be the world greatest paintball manufacturer by making markers? They make guns. Guns you play Army with. I'm pretty sure it is the subject of this thread. | You made an account, just to make that post? That's cute. |
i know. it was kinda a funny read.
i dont care what you think of me, but next time you have a thought, let it go.
------------- PSN Tag: AmmoLord XBL: xXAmmoLordXx
~Minister of Tinkering With Things That Go "BOOM!"(AKA Minister of Munitions)~
|
Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 11:36pm
Ammolord: please quit quoting me.
-------------
|
Posted By: Lao Yan Qiang
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 11:37pm
IMPULS3. wrote:
Lao Yan Qiang wrote:
ammolord wrote:
IMPULS3. wrote:
If you want milsim, go play airsoft. | YES! | Years ago when airsoft was still mostly in Japan and just beginning to show up in the States, I never could understand why anyone would ever want to play airsoft when you could play paintball. But I started playing more on the left coast and started running into guys like you two. I look back and see how many people paintball drove away because they didn't want guns and camo to be part of the "sport" and it makes me want to puke. You guys do too. I suppose you think Tippmann got to be the world greatest paintball manufacturer by making markers? They make guns. Guns you play Army with. I'm pretty sure it is the subject of this thread. | You made an account, just to make that post? That's cute. |
Yeah I'm psychic. I registered on May 28th because I knew you would make your post today.
|
Posted By: IMPULS3.
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 11:47pm
You miss read it. You made an account, didn't post anything for a couple of weeks, and your first post was that. And Ammolord, I was just messin about the quoting.
-------------
|
Posted By: ammolord
Date Posted: 08 June 2009 at 11:52pm
i know.
------------- PSN Tag: AmmoLord XBL: xXAmmoLordXx
~Minister of Tinkering With Things That Go "BOOM!"(AKA Minister of Munitions)~
|
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 12:31am
oldpbnoob wrote:
jmac3 wrote:
I would in fact venture to say(without facts obviously) that milsim is hurting the sport. The guns cost entirely too much money when they are milsimmed out. Young players who think they want their gun to look awesome waster money on that rather than paint. Sites like Specops sell "sniper" barrels to make money without actually making them useful. Not to mention the amount of kids who think red dot sights are helpful in paintball and waste that.
Without Milsim guns a kid could buy a stock tippmann 98 and a mask for about $200, and have money left over to play. Rather than the kid who has enough for an X7 or something and blows it all on that.
|
1. At least you admit your statement is totally baseless.
2. You can get an AB with an egrip and a decent mask for $200 all day long. Still less than you would pay for a lot of electros.
3. Hmm. I've seen plenty of kids walking around with just as much money dumped into their Spyders, Eteks, Ions, Vibes, Egos, etc. Pimping out your marker is a guy thing, kinda like putting $3000 spinners on a 10 year old Blazer. Does it make it go faster? No, but it looks good.
4. And $300 ano jobs do exactly what for the performance of a marker? Milling. Point being same as above really.
See number 2. |
I vote THIS the most colorful post of the year.
|
Posted By: Jayne Cobb
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 1:18am
|
Are they losing money because of people buying paintball/airsoft look-a-likes instead of their products?
|
Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 1:19am
Jayne Cobb wrote:
Are they losing money because of people buying paintball/airsoft look-a-likes instead of their products?
|
I could be wrong...but I think if they have a copyright on the look of the MP-5, they are kind of obligated to sue.
-------------
|
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 1:26am
Frozen Balls wrote:
Jayne Cobb wrote:
Are they losing money because of people buying paintball/airsoft look-a-likes instead of their products?
|
I could be wrong...but I think if they have a copyright on the look of the MP-5, they are kind of obligated to sue.
|
TREASON!!! YOU SHALL BE BANISHED FROM THE TIPPMANN FORUM!! MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL!!!! [Insert evil laugh here]
|
Posted By: bravecoward
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 2:08am
I would much rather have frozen on the forums than you
-------------
|
Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 2:25am
bravecoward wrote:
I would much rather have frozen on the forums than you
|

-------------
|
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 3:52am
Honestly people. They aren't going to kill Milsim. Hardcore enough people will still convert their own.
This Milsim/Woods .vs Pansy Pajama Wiper Speed players is getting OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOld. Give it up.
If you like Airsoft, bully for you. If you like Speedball, congrats. Whatever floats your boat. Everyone has differences, everyone likes different aspects of the game.
Lets wait and see what the actual court case is about before we jump to conclusions?
KBK
|
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 7:02am
|
For the record, my initial comment was simply that what paintball did't need right now was alienation of a significant portion of it's customer base. I believe a lawsuit by Warner Brothers against Planet Eclipse due to the similiarity of their products to Marvin the Martians PU-36 explosive space modulator would be equally detrimental to an already beleaguered industry.
|
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 8:01am
Simple economics. $5-15.00 field fee, $11.00 for 3000 bb's (last about 3 months for the average player who is not a paintball styled spray and pray artist), $36.00 for a rechargable battery (a whole days play), #300-400 one time cost for realilistic weapon system, already moded to the max allowed in the sport.
Or get wallet raped by paintball, simple choice for many.
-------------
|
Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 8:55am
I know what its about, and its not about the "look" of any of the Tippmann guns. I dont think you can trademark a visual style.
I dont know if I can say, but if you actually read "Trademark infringement" you could probably figure it out.
-------------
|
Posted By: procarbinefreak
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 8:59am
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 9:18am
The only true replication of the MP5 on the A-5 original is the sights. Once you add on the forestock, rearstock, and magazine housing you do get a resemblance but not a direct copy. I am really wondering what the foundation of the lawsuit actually is. Yes, Brad used the look of the MP5 as his model, but ensured enough differences as not to be seen as a copy. Now the AR15/M16 Colt people and possibly Kalishnikov will see the door opening and the resemblance marker couls be in for a hit.
The Airsoft market ensured that the proper licensing was done to replicate the weapons as well as the trademarks so there, unless the company did not purchase the license, no problems. CA, TM, G+G etc the high end airsoft manufacturers regularly at the trade shows have the actual weapon as well as the replica side by side, and on each label it states that the weapon replica is a licensed product of Colt, HK, SA, you name it. Several models have not been licensed and are required to have slight differences in design and no trademarks on the weapon. For years untill recently COLT required that any trademarks on the recievers be milled off before import, but that issue has been settled.
I still do not see the issue, since yes everything from waterguns to BB guns have been made in the MP5 image.
-------------
|
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 9:36am
|
Based on Eno's post, I would venture a guess that it has to do with marketing certain accessories as MP5 or M5SD style add ons. Direct usage of model numbers without approval seems like it would be a no no.
|
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 10:10am
Kayback wrote:
This Milsim/Woods .vs Pansy Pajama Wiper Speed players is getting OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOld. Give it up.
|
Seriously.
On topic, it appears that HK sued Tippmann, SpecOps, BT, a airsoft company and two firearms manufacturers, all pretty much for the same thing: Trademark violations under the Lanham act. This is not a patent issue, but trademark/tradename dilution, trade dress infringement, etc. Without reading the actual pleadings, I suspect they read pretty much like this: "Their guns look a lot like ours and stuff, which makes the H&K brand and the MP5 name less valuable." I am curious whether this was motivated by the paintball guys or the firearm guys - I cannot imagine that H&K feels threatened by Tippmann, but it may be that H&K determined that their claim against the gun guys would be weaker if they let the paintball/airsoft companies run amok. Besides, the A-5 has been out for almost a decade - assuming, of course, that this is about the A-5. It could also be about the various G3-type accessories and whatnot, but my understanding is that the gun companies that got sued make MP5 clones, not G3 clones. If somebody cares enough to get a copy of the complaint we can find out easily enough.
Of course, prior to bucket of lawsuits there would have been communications with Tippmann et al, so the good folks at Tippmann could probably fill us in if they wanted to... which they won't and don't. :)
But clearly interesting stuff. Buy all your A-5s now before the gun-grabbers outlaw them.
-------------
"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".
Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
|
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 11:26am
I am betting on a judicial "gag" order not allowing Tippmann et al to discuss this issue during the legal procedings. I really do not understand, at last years "Lion Claws" event at Ft. Knox, there was a representitive of HK at the Classic Army booth, touting how the CA MP5 SD6 replica was a definate advantage,
and then the A5 "replica"
Close but not as close as the CA MP5 series.
-------------
|
Posted By: Peter Parker
Date Posted: 09 June 2009 at 11:51am
oldsoldier wrote:
I am betting on a judicial "gag" order not allowing Tippmann et al to discuss this issue during the legal procedings. |
I can almost promise that there is no gag order. Gag orders are basically unconstitutional, and are issued only in the most extreme of circumstances - which this is not.
I can also almost promise that Tippmann's attorneys have told them not to say anything in public except for carefully scripted press releases.
-------------
"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".
Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
|
Posted By: new jersey
Date Posted: 10 June 2009 at 5:27pm
|
Does anyone know anymore info on what exactly is the case of the lawsuit?
Secondly, does anyone know what airsoft company and firearms comapnies are being sued?
I feel like a minority. I play both airsoft and paintball regularly. I wear camo, and a vest at the paintball field but I play a speedball influenced game(both on the speedball field and in the woods, although 8/10 games are in the woods). When I play airsoft, I usually care less about milsim. I dress accordlingly to what team I'm on, and I follow orders. I am not one of the people who thinks those BBs are 5.56mm and made of lead.
I'll stand up to defend speedball by saying it involves a hell of alot of teamwork, skill, practice, and communication. Oddly enough, milsim airsoft requires the same damn thing. A speedball team and a milsim airsoft team are both equally uselesswithout practice, skill, teamwork, and communication.
|
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 10 June 2009 at 7:31pm
Heckler & Koch, Inc. v. BT Paintball Designs, Inc.
Lawsuit Details
RFC Case Number: T-H09-689B
Court Case Number: 1:09-cv-00689-DFH-TAB
File Date: Wednesday, June 03, 2009
Plaintiff: Heckler & Koch, Inc.
Plaintiff Counsel: Brian J. McGinnis, Darlene R. Seymour of Continental Enterprises
Defendant: BT Paintball Designs, Inc.
Cause: 15:1125 Trademark Infringement (Lanham Act)
Court: Indiana Southern District Court
Judge: Judge David Frank Hamilton
Referred To: Magistrate Judge Tim A. Baker
__________________________________________________ _______________
Heckler & Koch, Inc. v. Tippman Sports LLC et al
RFC Case Number: T-H09-560T
Court Case Number: 1:09-cv-00560-WTL-TAB
File Date: Wednesday, May 06, 2009
Plaintiff: Heckler & Koch, Inc.
Plaintiff Counsel: Brian J. McGinnis, Darlene R. Seymour of Continental Enterprises
Defendant: Tippman Sports LLC
Tigerstripe Paintball LLC
Cause: 15:1114 Trademark Infringement
Court: Indiana Southern District Court
Judge: Judge William T. Lawrence
Referred To: Magistrate Judge Tim A. Baker
__________________________________________________ _____________
Heckler & Koch, Inc. v. Precision Airsoft, LLC
RFC Case Number: T-H09-485P
Court Case Number: 1:09-cv-00485-SEB-JMS
File Date: Monday, April 20, 2009
Plaintiff: Heckler & Koch, Inc.
Plaintiff Counsel: Darlene R. Seymour - Attorney at Law
Defendant: Precision Airsoft, LLC
Cause: 28:1331 Fed. Question: Trademark
Court: Indiana Southern District Court
Judge: Judge Sarah Evans Barker
Referred To: Judge Jane Magnus-Stinson
__________________________________________________ ___________
Heckler & Koch, Inc. v. Professional Arms, LLC
RFC Case Number: T-H09-387P
Court Case Number: 3:09-cv-00387-AC
File Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009
Plaintiff: Heckler & Koch, Inc.
Plaintiff Counsel: Paul G. Dodds of Brownstein Rask Sweeney Kerr Grim
Defendant: Professional Arms, LLC
Cause: 15:1114 Trademark Infringement
Court: Oregon District Court
Judge: Magistrate Judge John V. Acosta
__________________________________________________ ____________
Heckler & Koch, Inc. v. Coharie Arms, Inc.
RFC Case Number: T-H09-184C
Court Case Number: 1:09-cv-00184-RLY-JMS
File Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009
Plaintiff: Heckler & Koch, Inc.
Plaintiff Counsel: Darlene R. Seymour - Attorney at Law
Defendant: Coharie Arms, Inc.
Special Weapons, Inc.
Cause: 28:1441 Petition for Removal
Court: Indiana Southern District Court
Judge: Judge Richard L. Young
Referred To: Judge Jane Magnus-Stinson
Notes: NOTICE OF REMOVAL from Hamilton County Superior Court, case number 29D02-0810-PL-1323. |
Apparently, those who took the time to dive further into the cases are saying that H&K is indeed suing over likeness. However, their exhibits for evidence show "tricked out" Tippmanns, BTs, etc. Which means that they don't have a leg to stand on as it is the end-user that ultimately makes the particular marker look the way it does. All the legal types over at MCB are saying that H&K is going to lose this one for the same reason I stated before, they simply have not fought to keep the "trademark" look of their weapons from being used by other companies until now. Just like patent law, trademark and IP laws say that you must show reasonable defense of your product from past infractions by others before bringing on cases like these.
For all the legal eagles on the forum, here's the firm that is representing H&K in all these suits:
http://www.ce-ip.com/contactus.html - http://www.ce-ip.com/contactus.html
Of course, this is the same firm that's run afoul of many other companies in the past.
http://tabberone.com/Trademarks/HallOfShame/CyberCops/ContinentalEnterprises/ContinentalEnterprises.shtml - Interesting article
Apparently they're the trademark version of patent trolls. They talk a bunch of companies into letting them search the web for their trademarks being used in a manner inconsistent with the company's wishes and then send out a form letter informing the defendants that they will be suing them on behalf of the company mentioned. It's just like those guys who go around extorting the ADA but aren't handicapped.
It's a bunch of B.S. and probably won't get far given that the guys they're messing with have extensive legal teams themselves.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
|
|