Muzzle-Loaders and Hunting
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Topic: Muzzle-Loaders and Hunting
Posted By: DeTrevni
Subject: Muzzle-Loaders and Hunting
Date Posted: 03 October 2009 at 2:52am
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DeTrevni fantasy #42. (By the way, I'm actually working out now, so THERE!) I've never been hunting, but have been wanting to go for a while now. Deer season is coming up, and I'm thinking about getting a nice muzzle-loader for it. They're fairly cheap, and the season is extended for muzzle loaders. Plus, I've always had an interest in black powder. I've got a nice percussion revolver I LOVE shooting. There's something satisfying about that giant poof of white smoke after every shot. My question for today is which gun do I want? Modern muzzle-loader: They're affordable (average of say $300), and it has good range and accuracy. It's also far more reliable than muzzle-loaders of the past, using shotgun primers and specialized powder charges and sabot conical rounds. The modern muzzle-loader is definitely more practical when compared to the traditional one, but the only downside I can think of is it really lacks the spirit. Also, since I've never hunted before, maybe I should use what gives me more of an advantage until I get used to it. Traditional muzzle-loader: These make up for the "spirit" that the modern guns lack. There's something zen-like about getting out in the woods as the sun rises with a flintlock rifle like our ancestors had. Also, I'd be building my own, which in itself is rewarding. The DIY kits (from www.trackofthewolf.com, check 'em out) are cheaper (yet still twice the cost of a modern muzzle-loader) and are comprised of high quality parts. I think I'd be able to build one. Just some woodwork and metal finishing. Maybe some thread-tapping here and there. But like mentioned, they ARE expensive. I could get a Thompson/Center traditional, or even a crappy Traditions, etc. but if I get a traditional, it will be flintlock, and I will build it. I'm very big on the "spirit" of things. Another downside is lower range and accuracy as opposed to modern guns. Since I'm not experienced, maybe it would be better to whet my appetite, so to speak, with a modern gun. So forum hunters, what would you suggest? In all honesty, I'd MUCH rather build my own flintlock to use, but I'm concerned I don't have the hunting skill needed for that. Also, if anyone knows a good hunting forum, or a black powder forum, please let me know! ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell" 
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Replies:
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 03 October 2009 at 9:07am
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I can't really offer much since although I DO hunt with a muzzle loader, I don't use a modern one or the flintlock. I'll use one of the multiple percussion black powder rifles that we own for reenacting/collecting. My favorite one is a .58 cook and brother cavalry carbine that my sister owns. With that, if I see something I can hit it. My other one is my own .58 1853 enfield. I really love black powder hunting, you're right, there's something thrilling about the 'primitive' nature of it. No scopes, no 5 rounds in a magazine, and yes, that puff of smoke is always fun. ------------- ? |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 03 October 2009 at 4:58pm
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Traditional Black Powder hunting is fun, and takes skill. The modern black powder rifles are no true test, essentially a low velocity modern rifle. Just a hint any shot over 25m is a low percentage, so plan accordingly. I sometimes use my 1863 Sprinfield Rifled Musket .58cal, or more fun is my .50cal smooth bore Pennsylvania flint lock. In Nebraska I can also use my 1873 Springfield Trapdoor Carbine as long as it has .55gr of black powder in the 45/70 case. NEVER shoot a full 70gr charge from a carbine, a real bruiser.
Will take practice hitting, and the click/bang (or click/flash/bang)will take a while to get used to, and you will flinch the first few times. Practice a fast reload, pre-measure charges and ball in paper cartridges, and enjoy. In Nebraska the trick is to use "drivers" to move the deer towards your static position. In the corn fields and runs pretty easy, here in NY differant techniques will be required. Just remmmeber 25M, 150Ft, paintball range...drill it in your head or you will miss or track blood trails for quite awhile. Also large caliber, no .32. ------------- 
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 03 October 2009 at 7:36pm
I got a great deal on a TC Hawken .50 percussion ($150 ) and it's one of my favorite rifles. With a patched round ball its better than most shotguns at 50 yards, but I'll probably switch to conicals this year. If you're going to go with a traditional style, .54 has better downrange ballistics than a .50 with either sabots or conicals. Building one could be fun, and Cabella's has kits. Before you go with a flintlock, check to see if you can get FFFG or FFFFG for the priming pan locally. With the new shipping regs I can harldy find real black powder anymore, let alone the fine grain stuff. If you go with a traditional precussion cap, get a magnum nipple or use #11 magnums. Since I switched to #11 mags I have had no misfires or hangfires. Clean shot and clear shot powder seem to outperform pyrodex. I can use 85 grains of powder without much loss of accuracy over 70 or 75 grains. Double set triggers and great sights make the TC hawken a blast. I just wish it was a later model with the quick loading feature so I could thum-start the ball instead of using my short-starter.
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Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 03 October 2009 at 9:58pm
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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
oldsoldier wrote:Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 03 October 2009 at 10:16pm
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I'm on the fence about drives. I'd only do them with people I trust, but at least you know where the other hunters are, theoretically. I usually post myself with a solid tree behind me when i'm standing, and stop and reform our line at pre-planned landmarks. Radios and/or cell phones are must. It can be pretty effective when done right. I honestly think the best idea is to find a group putting on a drive and hunt somewhere they'll push them to if not to their standers. My grandfather used to get a lot of deer out of a ravine behind an orchard where people used to put on drives. Late season the deer usually go nocturnal and are pressured and done with the rut, the more hunters in the woods the better your chances of seeing a deer. |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 03 October 2009 at 10:16pm
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OS: I actually enjoy shooting black powder, so I'm aware of the "Click-flash-boom." I shoot a percussion revolver, so it may not have as much of a delay as a rifle, but I think I can handle the learning curve. :) Great advice though, thanks. Rednekk: I've been looking at the Cabela's kits, and they are far more affordable than the ~$600 Track of the Wolf kits, but I'm concerned about their quality. I'm big on quality. However, I'm also concerned that since it's my first time building a gun, that I might mess up a more expensive kit. I'm thinking about getting the Cabela's kit to learn on... Thoughts? ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 03 October 2009 at 10:25pm
| Cabella's kits are CVA or traditions, so they're decent. If you dislike it, you can always replace the barrel. There's a jewler in my town who builds his own rifles, usually with traditions or CVA barrels. I think green mountain makes barrels that will fit a cabellas hawken, and they're high quality. My TC hawken has quite a bit of pitting in the bore and it still shoots great with round balls. Stick with the natural cleaning solutions and lube. TC bore butter is great, it's also good for seasoning cast iron pans. Whoever had my rifle before me was a boob who probably traded it for a stainless in-line. Even a so-so muzzleloader can be made to shoot well if you play around with your loads a bit, just make sure it balances nicely, fits you, and has nice sights and trigger. I've been considering putting a peep sight on mine for a better sight radius, but I think i'll go that route after i actually kill something with it(almost popped a grouse when bored and deer hunting, thought better of it). I'd reccomend against a wooden ram-rod. Hickory rods are probably fine, but stabbing yourself in the hand is going to ruin your day. If you ever get into casting your own balls, you might want them slightly oversized. Match shooters usually have them set up so they need to hammer them into the barrel. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 03 October 2009 at 11:24pm
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Oversized balls or minee's are a really bad idea. I blew a vent hole with a fouled barrel just once to cure me of super tight fits. L-plated barrels have a nasty habit of seperating also with the higher pressures of tight fits. In multi shot days I go with progressively smaller conicals.
Match barrels are also guaged at a higher pressure rating than stock barrels. -------------
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Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 04 October 2009 at 1:05am
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Hm. Well, it seems that the Cabela's kit (which I want) includes a barrel with a twist of 1 in 48". That's just a bit too fast for patched roundball. If I get it, would you suggest .50 minie or conical .45 sabot? The sabot would be more practical, but once again, I like authenticity. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 04 October 2009 at 1:48am
| if you will be hunting at shorter ranges a .50 minie will be fine. I've also heard good things about CVA powerbelts. 1 in 48 might be a tad fast for round balls, but the only way to know for sure is to try it. My Hawken is 1-48 and shoots roundballs fine. As for the hammer method, my manual says its OK with my rifle, never tried it myself, but I've had to pull a few balls that have nice indentations from the patch, which is a good thing, and i can still load it with a bit of fouling (especially with clean shot) Burst barrels are probably from not having the ball seated right on the powder, which would probably be easier to do with hammering one in, especially if fouled. For your purposes you will probably never need to try it for more accuracy, but knowing you, you'll tinker. Don't do it unless your manual says it's OK. Oversized minies seem pointless to me since they expand at the base. Quick loading was probably their biggest advantage over the round ball besides ballistics. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 04 October 2009 at 3:49am
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Also percussion weapons have a much faster response time that flintlocks. They are also more weather proof.
I love all this talk about being more traditional, yet one of the major reasons we have modern firearms is because the old systems sucked at hunting. I can bet you your ancestors cursed the very technology you think of as romantic. Hell percussion caps were developed because the flash from a pan could cause birds to flinch. If you want to do it like your ancestors, go scavenge or dig a pit and get a buck to fall in it, then kill buck with rocks or fire hardened sharp sticks. There is very little difference between "old" and "modern" firearms besides improved ballistics, better reliability and improved efficency. What works for one works for the other. Ie, get one that fits you, learn to use it, tailor your loads to something your gun likes, don't take shots beyond your skill or your weapon's ability. That aside, I am jealous of you. I'd say if you have the skill, definately make your own. I'd totally suggest picking up a cheapers one for the first time, but something like they sell at Cabela's is still capable of making a good rifle. You are experienced when it comes to black powder, so I won't bore you with the general blurb of seating the bullet properly and such. Just that clean shot is fantastic stuff. Black powder is good and all but you know how quickly fouling can ruin your day. Clean shot lets you get a bunch more shots out of your day between cleaning. How many you'd need on a hunt I don't know. Trying to get my hands on a Baker style rifle, but playing quite happily with my Hawken :) |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 04 October 2009 at 4:31am
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You do speak truth, and that has occurred to me. If my ancestors were alive today, would they use the best available, or would they curse the new, wondering why it isn't "like the way it used to be," as old-timers tend to do these days? ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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