Expelled, no intelligence allowed.
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Topic: Expelled, no intelligence allowed.
Posted By: __sneaky__
Subject: Expelled, no intelligence allowed.
Date Posted: 07 November 2009 at 12:28am
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I think its important to listen to both sides of the argument, and so I'm currently sitting here watching Ben Stein's Expelled, I'm trying very hard to actually watch this video... But it's very, very painful.
Providing no real evidence, the movie has not given an actually definition for ID yet. Twisting the words of the opponents to I.D.. Twisting Darwinian theory. Giving the misconception that there is actually a debate on evolution between the scientific community. Twisting facts and evidence. More straw men arguments than I can even list.
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
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Replies:
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 07 November 2009 at 12:32am
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Did you know that the earth is actually hollow?
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 07 November 2009 at 12:53am
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Ooooh. Okay Ben Stein.
The first hour of the movie is basically about how everybody thinks ID is evil, yet evolution apparently is a weak flimsy explanation. Then out of nowhere he turns it into a question of, "Can't we have god AND Darwin?"
Yes, lets try our best to try and make this theory appear to be faulty, and then after we do that... Lets hop on board!
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 07 November 2009 at 1:09am
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And here comes all the religious dogma! I love how they set this video up. They put the hypocrasy so close together. "No, I.D. is not about being religious!" (15 minutes) "Atheism is so empty, once you die, thats it, the end..."
Oh, and if you follow darwin, you must automatically follow social darwinism and you are a nazi.
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
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Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 18 December 2009 at 11:19pm
*Bump*
I just streamed this movie over netflix.
The entire first half of the movie could have been avoided had ben stein ever read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions - The Structure of Scientific Revolutions . The rest was, ID isn't about god but science and god can get together. Scientist who support darwin are communist, east Germany and Hitler at the same time.
What a waste of 90 minutes.
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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 18 December 2009 at 11:55pm
__sneaky__ wrote:
"Atheism is so empty, once you die, thats it, the end..." |
Isn't that true though?
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 19 December 2009 at 12:25am
Why would you watch this?
This is coming from someone who at least thinks ID is possible.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 19 December 2009 at 2:50am
Rofl_Mao wrote:
__sneaky__ wrote:
"Atheism is so empty, once you die, thats it, the end..." |
Isn't that true though?
| I don't believe it because it makes me feel all cozy inside, I believe it because based on evidence, thats what I feel is the truth. But its not empty. I choose to live my life while I am here, not lie to myself and pretend the best is yet to come after death.
Mark Twain once said, "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit."
And it was a terrible movie... I still can't believe I managed to watch the entire thing.
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
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Posted By: Uncle Rudder
Date Posted: 19 December 2009 at 3:20pm
Monk wrote:
Did you know that the earth is actually hollow? |
Worms make the dirt, and the dirt makes the earth.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 19 December 2009 at 5:45pm
Uncle Rudder wrote:
Monk wrote:
Did you know that the earth is actually hollow? |
Worms make the dirt, and the dirt makes the earth. |
Aquabats are hilarious.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: Gator Taco
Date Posted: 19 December 2009 at 6:11pm
I refuse to believe in ID.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/trailgator01 - last.fm
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 20 December 2009 at 5:55pm
^ It's pointless. Its a last stitch effort to keep god in science when we have come to the point of it not being needed.
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
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Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 3:34am
So, to bump this thread again, I just watched this movie. All respect for Ben Stein is lost (I don't know where I got it from in the first place, but for some reason I thought him a respectable guy). It seemed like at one point he was actually trying to push the idea that evolution wasn't even science.
And displaying Richard Dawkins in a dark manner like that, dark room and all is just wrong. EVERYONE who's anyone knows that he is the closest thing this planet will ever get to receiving an angel. Give him the glow he deserves, damnit!
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Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 4:20am
__sneaky__ wrote:
^ It's pointless. Its a last stitch effort to keep god in science when we have come to the point of it not being needed.
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Where would God (metaphysical) fit in Science (physical)? I still don't understand the logic of this idea that science and religion are somehow at odds.
Although, incidentally, there is room for the notion of a God in Quantum Physics (universal observer), unless you subscribe to the idea of infinite parallel universes existing.
On topic though, just bought "The Greatest Show On Earth" by Richard Dawkins on Kindle. Still trying to prioritize it on my reading list which also includes the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and "Chaos" by James Gleick. Should be a good read. Still looking for more books on evolution that give a good coverage of the science *cough*Ben/Peter/Achmed/Whatever*cough* 
------------- Real Men play Tuba
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 10:57am
Darur wrote:
__sneaky__ wrote:
^ It's pointless. Its a last stitch effort to keep god in science when we have come to the point of it not being needed.
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Where would God (metaphysical) fit in Science (physical)? I still don't understand the logic of this idea that science and religion are somehow at odds. Although, incidentally, there is room for the notion of a God in Quantum Physics (universal observer), unless you subscribe to the idea of infinite parallel universes existing.
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Interestingly enough, there are quite a few notable scientists out there who still believe in God, and believe in the idea that when it all comes down to it, something started this whole crazy thing and wasn't the Big Bang since something created the big bang. Nothing can come from Nothing, this is the most immutable law of physics. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed but when it comes down to it, something had to create the matter that allowed the Big Bang to occur. The further we chase down answers (which are completely legit btw) the more we're left with more questions which we can only answer by looking to a higher power.
The fault in intelligent design lies not in the idea that some higher power was the catalyst for this grand place we call the universe, but rather in comparing our own weak and feeble minds to the mind of God. Can we even define God? Of course not. The Hebrews never did get into specifics, even the eastern religions say there is no God because for us to understand what God is would be impossible. It isn't an argument against a higher creative power, but an argument against the limits of the human mind. Even the Christian faith has attempted to show us that God isn't something that we could ever truly know or understand. The concept of the trinity is a reminder that while we may have an understanding of the humanistic side of God through Jesus, we cannot even begin to wrap our minds around the idea of the creator (the Father) or the idea of the spirit/soul/life energy (the Holy Spirit).
There is more than enough room in science for God. There simply isn't room for the convoluted humanistic view of an old man sitting on a throne in the clouds.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 12:00pm
The problem with the idea of a god is that if people really were affected by it, the god's powers would be observable and therefore within the realm of science. However, there has been no definitive test that can prove the existence of such an influence. All we have is human testimony and a some literature, which can easily contain a large amount of fabrication.
If a god does exist and does influence us, it would not collide with science. Most of our current scientific truths can remain so with the amendment "unless God wills otherwise." If the super-specific and romantic depiction of a god through the Abrahamic religions is to be believed, then yes, the concept does clash with science, as the literature behind those religions clashes with many of the scientific and historical observations humanity has made.
I'd go more into this, but I'm running out of time.
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 12:56pm
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I think people are trusting in science too much. Don't get me wrong its a great thing, but it is not the most accurate thing in the world, in fact scientists are wrong most of the time. Everything is based on theories and educated guesses, except for the few laws like gravity and stuff. I'm just saying, I'm not going to base my whole life on something that is just made up of guesses. The big bang theory doesn't explain how life came to be, scientists still cannot figure that out.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 3:10pm
Rofl_Mao wrote:
I think people are trusting in science too much. Don't get me wrong its a great thing, but it is not the most accurate thing in the world, in fact scientists are wrong most of the time. Everything is based on theories and educated guesses, except for the few laws like gravity and stuff. I'm just saying, I'm not going to base my whole life on something that is just made up of guesses. The big bang theory doesn't explain how life came to be, scientists still cannot figure that out.
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I'm not sure I've read a less intelligent post on here since deathsnakehiss left.
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 3:15pm
Rofl_Mao wrote:
I think people are trusting in science too much. Don't get me wrong its a great thing, but it is not the most accurate thing in the world, in fact scientists are wrong most of the time. Everything is based on theories and educated guesses, except for the few laws like gravity and stuff. I'm just saying, I'm not going to base my whole life on something that is just made up of guesses. The big bang theory doesn't explain how life came to be, scientists still cannot figure that out.
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That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 3:45pm
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Now I see your dependence on science.
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 3:47pm
I do hope you are trolling. I refuse to believe someone could be this ignorant.
It is clear you don't have a clue what science is or what the name science even means.
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 3:50pm
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You people treat it as a religion.
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 3:54pm
No, YOU treat it as a religion. The rest of the species, the intelligent ones, regard it as the study of the world around us. By the way, that's what it is.
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 3:59pm
Posted By: God
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 4:00pm
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Come on folks. Let us now pray to the Almighty Beaker.
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Posted By: God
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 4:04pm
Posted By: Destruction
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 4:29pm
All glory to the Triple Beam Balance!
------------- u dont know what to do ur getting mottor boatted
Men are from Magmar, women are from Venusaur.
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 4:34pm
High Voltage wrote:
Rofl_Mao wrote:
I think people are trusting in science too much. Don't get me wrong its a great thing, but it is not the most accurate thing in the world, in fact scientists are wrong most of the time. Everything is based on theories and educated guesses, except for the few laws like gravity and stuff. I'm just saying, I'm not going to base my whole life on something that is just made up of guesses. The big bang theory doesn't explain how life came to be, scientists still cannot figure that out. |
That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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ok here is an example of what mostly morons and liberals do. when they cannot defend their own theory and some one gives a better one.they instantly attempt to attack the writer and his theory by personal attacks and mudslinging his theory.you will note that "that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard" has no relevance what so ever and is just an attempt to discredit this perfectly valid argument.
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 4:37pm
Now I know you guys are trolling.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 4:42pm
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No, its a statement because it's bafflingling stupid, and 2nd grade logic shouldn't have to be explained.
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 4:50pm
High Voltage wrote:
I do hope you are trolling. I refuse to believe someone could be this ignorant.
It is clear you don't have a clue what science is or what the name science even means.
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crikey,once again he is attempting personal attacks.by calling this man ignorant.you will also notice that he has yet to give us a valid argument.
High Voltage wrote:
No, YOU treat it as a religion. The rest of the species, the intelligent ones, regard it as the study of the world around us. By the way, that's what it is. |
once again now he is claiming that "YOU" are treating it as a religion.no that is incorrect he(a.k.a.YOU) is treating it as it is a process of studying and observing the world arround us.Not a way to explain the begining of the universe.after all science is observable,testable and repeatable.evolution is none of these.
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 4:52pm
High Voltage wrote:
Now I know you guys are trolling.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 5:13pm
cool0 wrote:
evolution is none of these. |
Yes. Yes it is.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 5:17pm
Rofl_Mao wrote:
I think people are trusting in science too much. |
- "Trusting' science in what way?
- "Science" isn't actually some sort of amorphous entity the way you seem to refer to it. The term applies to systematic processes by which theories are formulated, explored, developed into hypotheses, and then studied through properly rigorous practices.
Rofl_Mao wrote:
IDon't get me wrong its a great thing, but it is not the most accurate thing in the world, in fact scientists are wrong most of the time. |
- [Citation Needed]
- It's not a 'thing'.
- Because it is not a 'thing' it cannot be calimed to be accurate, as that is a property that can only be applied to things.
- That said, the scientific process results in the accrual of knowledge more accurate than any other method of gaining or developing knowledge. The alternative to the scientific method is guessing, and I challenge you to demonstrate how any non-scientific alternative can be more accuration in the discovery or disproval of facts and aknowledge than the scientific method.
Rofl_Mao wrote:
IEverything is based on theories and educated guesses, except for the few laws like gravity and stuff. |
- The first half of the statement is the first of only two correct things you've said in this post.
- Everything by nature simply must start out as a guess; a notion; a whimsy. Someone is struck by an idea, a stroke of insight, and then develops that into something that can be disproven experimentally.
- Everything is termed initially a 'hypothesis', and only through scientific rigour develops into a 'theory' (including gravity- however I'm not familiar of a Law of Stuff)
- Theories are so called specifically because it is almost impossible to prove something. A theory gains credence and validity over time as it resists rigorous efforts to disprove it. Gravity has gained the intellectual strength of a law because for centuries we have been unable to disprove the basic precept that through some as yet to be understood means, matter has a universal attraction to other matter. We rely on thousands upon thousands of scientific theories that have gained such credibility every day. Every time you turn on a light switch, fly in a plane, drive a car, toast a piece of bread, or almost literally anything you do on a daily basis is a reliance on the validity of knowledge we have determined scientifically and have then implemented into inventions and products.
Rofl_Mao wrote:
II'm just saying, I'm not going to base my whole life on something that is just made up of guesses. |
- You pretty much already do, be it as mentioned above, or when relying on biblical precepts that have been handed down for millennia and translated reinterpreted many dozens of times.
Rofl_Mao wrote:
IThe big bang theory doesn't explain how life came to be, scientists still cannot figure that out.
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- This is the other thing you correctly stated, though you didn't do so on purpose the way you thought you did. The big bang theory doesn't claim to explain how life came to be. It posits merely that the universe in its current form has expanded for approximately 13-14 billion years, all current matter and energy having originally been concentrated into some sort of primordial form.
- The theory is by no means complete, however it is supported by our observations of the expansion of the universe.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 5:19pm
cool0 wrote:
after all science is observable,testable and repeatable.evolution is none of these.
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Explain first, please, what YOUR understanding is of what 'Evolution' actually is, and how it applies to humans in our present form before this discussion carries on. Also, if you're going to the trouble to post, please capitalize the start of your sentences. It makes it easier to take your posts seriously.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 5:23pm
agentwhale007 wrote:
cool0 wrote:
evolution is none of these. |
Yes. Yes it is.
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alright please explain how you can observe evolution, that supposedly happened millions of years ago when no one saw it and no one wrote it down .also if you say fosils then explain to me why there arn't million of missing link fossils being dragged up by the truck full today. also please explain how evolution is testable if what suposedly happend billions of years ago on accident isn't being accomplished with: millions of dollars, the best computers, and hundreds of scientists today.
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 5:30pm
brihard wrote:
cool0 wrote:
after all science is observable,testable and repeatable.evolution is none of these.
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Explain first, please, what YOUR understanding is of what 'Evolution' actually is, and how it applies to humans in our present form before this discussion carries on. Also, if you're going to the trouble to post, please capitalize the start of your sentences. It makes it easier to take your posts seriously. |
Cool0^
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 5:37pm
cool0 wrote:
agentwhale007 wrote:
cool0 wrote:
evolution is none of these. | Yes. Yes it is. |
alright please explain how you can observe evolution, that supposedly happened millions of years ago when no one saw it and no one wrote it down.
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Actually, we see it happening around us right now. You just aren't looking in the right places. The "Red Forrest" of Belarus is a wonderful place to observe the subtle changes that environmental conditions cause a species to undergo. Due to the remarkably high levels of Cesium-137 and Strontium-90 in the food chain in that area, the various avian, mammalian, reptilian, amphibian, and aquatic lifeforms have begun reaching sexual maturity much more rapidly and have begun to develop cellular resistance to mutation caused by the Cesium and Strontium levels in the area. All of this has happened in a matter of 20 years! It's been observed, recorded, and tested.
also if you say fosils then explain to me why there arn't million of missing link fossils being dragged up by the truck full today. |
The conditions necessary to form a fossil are very, very rare. Even with modern embalming techniques, most human remains are completely decomposed (bone and all) within a matter of two decades, let alone thousands or millions of years. The same goes for any other animal. Unless bacterium have been kept out and only certain minerals allowed in, all organic matter decomposes rapidly.
also please explain how evolution is testable if what suposedly happend billions of years ago on accident isn't being accomplished with: millions of dollars, the best computers, and hundreds of scientists today. |
See my first paragraph. Evolution IS occurring and is recordable every single day. You simply aren't looking around you with open eyes. Not only does the Red Forest of Belarus show this, but so does what we've been seeing in the changes in squids in the pacific, deer in metropolitan areas, etc.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 5:43pm
brihard wrote:
cool0 wrote:
after all science is observable,testable and repeatable.evolution is none of these.
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Explain first, please, what YOUR understanding is of what 'Evolution' actually is, and how it applies to humans in our present form before this discussion carries on. Also, if you're going to the trouble to post, please capitalize the start of your sentences. It makes it easier to take your posts seriously. |
Alright my understanding of the theory of evolution: it is a very old attempt to prove that there is no god,that everything has come about by random chance.the main reason for this theorytrying to disprove god is because people don't want a god to tell them what to do.they want to do whatever they want whenever they want.
1st: I said that evolution is a theory.none of it has been proved.if you think that is has been proved then state one true fact about evolution that has been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.
2nd: if you have properly studied real science then you know that nothing ever comes about by random chance.have you ever heard of the second law of thermodynamics?a.k.a. entropy.have you ever seen a car build it self?
3rd:I find it extremely amusing that you are now attacking the way I type.really, would a capital letter make any diference on if you beleive the words I am typeing.all it would do is slow me down from disproving evolution.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 5:45pm
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You don't understand what evolution is, or why it exists.
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 5:49pm
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:11pm
cool0 wrote:
it is a very old attempt to prove that there is no god, |
Am I the only one that gave up here?
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:11pm
tallen702 wrote:
cool0 wrote:
agentwhale007 wrote:
cool0 wrote:
evolution is none of these. | Yes. Yes it is. |
alright please explain how you can observe evolution, that supposedly happened millions of years ago when no one saw it and no one wrote it down.
| Actually, we see it happening around us right now. You just aren't looking in the right places. The "Red Forrest" of Belarus is a wonderful place to observe the subtle changes that environmental conditions cause a species to undergo. Due to the remarkably high levels of Cesium-137 and Strontium-90 in the food chain in that area, the various avian, mammalian, reptilian, amphibian, and aquatic lifeforms have begun reaching sexual maturity much more rapidly and have begun to develop cellular resistance to mutation caused by the Cesium and Strontium levels in the area. All of this has happened in a matter of 20 years! It's been observed, recorded, and tested.
also if you say fosils then explain to me why there arn't million of missing link fossils being dragged up by the truck full today. |
The conditions necessary to form a fossil are very, very rare. Even with modern embalming techniques, most human remains are completely decomposed (bone and all) within a matter of two decades, let alone thousands or millions of years. The same goes for any other animal. Unless bacterium have been kept out and only certain minerals allowed in, all organic matter decomposes rapidly.
also please explain how evolution is testable if what suposedly happend billions of years ago on accident isn't being accomplished with: millions of dollars, the best computers, and hundreds of scientists today. |
See my first paragraph. Evolution IS occurring and is recordable every single day. You simply aren't looking around you with open eyes. Not only does the Red Forest of Belarus show this, but so does what we've been seeing in the changes in squids in the pacific, deer in metropolitan areas, etc. |
1st: quite honestly you are by far the most inteligent evolutionist I have come across yet.unfortunatly you are also one of the most deceived.
2nd: theese small changes that you are talking about are not evolution at all this is something that teachers and profesors tell you to convince you that evolution it true.I am not making an idle excuse(like most of you) I have my facts well learned.the small changes you are refering to are called adaptation.this is indeed a real actual thing that does happen quite commonly.it is also been called micro evolution.but is more corectly called adaptation.an example of adaptation is what charles darwin himself studied in the galapagose islands.he observed that the finches on that island had long beaks, short beaks, wide and narrow beaks.just as you might find short dogs,tall dogs,fat dogs, and skinny dogs.he foolishly came to the conclusion that the change in beaks was one species slowly changing into annother.but I ask you this wern't they all finches!! yes also adaptation is caused by a loss in information in the species DNA.the finches wern't gaining any DNA.dna can only come from an already existing source of dna.such as a parrent.also evolution is based on changes by mutations.but you said it your self that the red forest animals are gaining resistance to mutations.but speaking of mutations 99.9% of mutations are harmful to the host.all most all die.why doesn't any one show me an mutation that is benificial.so far I have only seen 4winged flys that can't fly! an evolutionist profesor said that the persentage of harmful mutations are so high that they are all considered bad.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:19pm
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Are you really trying to tell us what evolution is? You clearly don't get it, or you're trolling.
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:21pm
choopie911 wrote:
You don't understand what evolution is, or why it exists. |
once again an attempt to dis what I have to say by throwing out a statement and not backing it up with facts or even explaining why he thinks this.
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:23pm
choopie911 wrote:
Are you really trying to tell us what evolution is? You clearly don't get it, or you're trolling. |
yes i am trying to tell you people that there is more than what science can explain.I don't see how accusing me of trolling is helping your theory.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:23pm
It's not about what I think evolution is, it's about what evolution is. Your definition and concept of evolution is skewed, and your beliefs/ opinions make it even harder for you to see. Why would I bother trying to further explain what has already been explained to you, but you feel you still know better.
The others in this thread are already doing a fine job, and I'll leave it to Brihard and Tallen to best educate you.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:30pm
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cool0 wrote:
Alright my understanding of the theory of evolution: it is a very old attempt to prove that there is no god,that everything has come about by random chance. |
- Wrong. Firstly, 'evolution' is not a theory in and of itself.
- I'm proceeding here form an assumption that you believe that DNA exists and functions in a way described by the relevant scientific literature in the subject. If you don't believe in DNA, you're too dumb to argue with.
- Evolution is a description of the results of a process of either natural or artificial selection. In short, out of a population of creatures, some, most or all will reproduce and pass their genes on to the next generation.
- Genese have been proven to mutate as a result of any number of causes. These mutations are generally random, most have no discernable effect on an organism. Most are completely neutral from a reproductive sense, in that they neither lessen nor increase the chances of an organism successfully breeding and passing on its genes to a new generation.
- Some mutations, however, are significant to a creature's reproduction. A dominant gene that prevents an individual from reproducing completely will not pass itself on. A dominant gene that lessens the chance of reproduction may either die off, or never form a significant portion of the population- the organism carrying this dominant gene will be out-bred by its fellows. Some mutations, however, result in an organism that is more likely to survive to reproductive age, or more able to attract mates, or more able to protect and provide for its offspring. A creature that, by way or mutation, is able to do any one of these things is more likely to pass on this gene if it's not killed prior to reproducing. These are known as adaptive mutations.
- An adaptive mutation, because it results in greater reproductive success, will fairly quickly gain dominance over the variants of the same species that do not possess it. I don't mean quickly in the time sense, but over a relatively short number of generations. This has been demonstrated many, many times in both laboratory experiments and natural observations of species that are reactive to new pressures in their environment, such as a new disease or predator, or a sudden shortage of food.
- Collectively, this is termed 'selection', and is also known as 'survival of the fittest'. Survival of the fittest, then, is almost wholly dependent, ultimately, on genes that allow an organism to respond to challenges in its environment and to pass on its genes more successfully.
cool0 wrote:
the main reason for this theorytrying to disprove god is because people don't want a god to tell them what to do.they want to do whatever they want whenever they want. |
- Natural selection and atheism are wholly irrelevant to each other. God and natural selection are simply two alternative explanations for where humans come from. One argues that over roughly five to seven billion years, hominid species gradually adapted to selective pressures, as described above, and exist now in a multitude of forms, such as humans, chimanzees, apes, and other similar species. Each has adapted in its own way to be biologically successful. The other argues that approximately six years ago we were created by a deity through some metaphysical means.
- The theory of natural selection is substantiated by a fossil record showing progressive changes in species over the course of, as mentioned, seven million years. Unfortunately it's extremely hard to find more evidence for this, because, as Tallen explained, fossils generally are extraordinarily rare. Every fossil that is unearthed, however, is a 'missing link' in the infinitesimally slow evolution of the form of an organism.
- The theory of God (The monotheistic Judeo-Christian-Muslim God, that it; there exist theories of many of hundreds of different gods, all of which possess an equal amount of substantiation and evidence, and none of which are testable, observable or disprovable) is not substantiated in any way except by the collective belief of a few billion people. We do not and cannot know if there is a God or Gods unless it or they choose to reveal themselves. Right now we're going on the word of some individual or group who, roughly six thousand years ago, wrote a book that has been passed down, interpreted, reinterpreted and translated since that time. Unfortunately, all the people mentioned in that book are dead, so we cannot gain any further insight on this. The basic claim, that we were created metaphysically six thousand years ago is already disproven by archaeological and anthropoligical research that have tracked human populations through fossil records and through physical sites such as ancient settlements.
cool0 wrote:
1st: I said that evolution is a theory. |
- It is almost impossible to empirically prove anything when taken to a small enough level of research. See my previous post to rofl_mao on this subject. Consequently, just about everything is a theory. All religions are also theories, as they cannot be proven, however they lack the strength of most scientific theories in that they cannot be observed, tested, or disproved experimentally.
cool0 wrote:
none of it has been proved. |
- False. It has been proven many times that species adapt to selective pressures. We also have evidence (not proof, but strong evidence) that for millions of years several species have existed that gradually have assumed a more and more human form. None of these species remain in existence today, and few of them existed alongside each other. Coupled with what we know about natural selection it is a very reasonable hypothesis to suppose that the species evolved progressively into each other, but because of the paucity of fosils it is not yet possible to create a complete record showing every incremental change detectable in fossil remnants.
cool0 wrote:
if you think that is has been proved then state one true fact about evolution that has been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. |
- I will refer you to the Wikipedia entry on experimental evolution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution
- We know that species change as a result of selective pressures; this can be shown as simply as in the breeding of dogs, where only dogs that most closely resemble a desired breed are allowed to reproduce. Poodles, greyhounds and Chihuahuas did not occur in nature, they were selectively bred by humans.
cool0 wrote:
2nd: if you have properly studied real science then you know that nothing ever comes about by random chance. |
- Few things are truly 'random', but radiation hitting a gene and causing a mutation is as close to 'random' in a practical sense as anything we can think of. It is random that a particular mutation is caused, but given enough mutations, one will eventually prove reproductively advantageous.
cool0 wrote:
have you ever heard of the second law of thermodynamics? a.k.a. entropy.have you ever seen a car build it self? |
- Entropy describes isolated systems which a single biological organism or an entire species is not. Both are affected greatly by their environments, and it is the affect that causes the selective pressures I've referenced extensively. The isolated system is not applicable to any precept of evolution. The only real isolated system is the entire universe, which is, so far as we can discern, still perfectly subject to entropy. Entropy is a net process, and not applicable to every single individual thing. It's a whole-system process, and you must identify and isolate your system for it to work.
- Cars are made of inanimate objects, and consequently are not biological organisms or subject to selective pressures. It's a wholly irrelevant analogy.
cool0 wrote:
3rd:I find it extremely amusing that you are now attacking the way I type.really, would a capital letter make any diference on if you beleive the words I am typeing. |
- I do so because you type poorly, and consequently it's difficult to read you coherently. Punctuation and capitalization help to make you more legible. It also appears extremely lazy on your part.
cool0 wrote:
all it would do is slow me down from disproving evolution. |
- No it wouldn't, because you aren't.
You seem to labour under an assumption that God and evolution are mutually exclusive. Who's to say God did not 'spark the fire' so to speak, and poke the first couple of complex chemical compounds into a state where they could reproduce in a biological sense, and then sit back for a few billion years to see what happens?It's a far more reasonable explanation than that offered by the bible, and it actually fits the evidence of fossil records and the archaeological proof that we're more than six thousand years old. It also explains all the dead species that aren't mentioned in the bible, like Velociraptors.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
|
Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:39pm
HOLY CRAP.
The amount of fail and misinformation in this thread is absolutely mind-blowing. I hope you guys are trolling.
I guess you guys don't believe in doctors or medicine or any of that "science" either.
-------------
 irc.esper.net #paintball
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Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:43pm
Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 7:31pm
brihard wrote:
cool0 wrote:
after all science is observable,testable and repeatable.evolution is none of these.
|
Explain first, please, what YOUR understanding is of what 'Evolution' actually is, and how it applies to humans in our present form before this discussion carries on. Also, if you're going to the trouble to post, please capitalize the start of your sentences. It makes it easier to take your posts seriously. |
Since when is evolution not observable, testable, or repeatable?
------------- <Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules>
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 7:35pm
choopie911 wrote:
It's not about what I think evolution is, it's about what evolution is. Your definition and concept of evolution is skewed, and your beliefs/ opinions make it even harder for you to see. Why would I bother trying to further explain what has already been explained to you, but you feel you still know better.
The others in this thread are already doing a fine job, and I'll leave it to Brihard and Tallen to best educate you. |
my ideas aren't skewed as to what evolution is yours are.yours are also skewed as to my ideas to creationism.you beleive that evolution is true and that there are no other explanations.I don't know as to why you won't bother to tell me but I will try my best to tell all of you the truth because I do care. I belive that there are only 2 destinations after death.and unless you know beyond a shadow of a doubt where you are going.you probably wont get to go where you want to.I am not trying to make you abandon your beliefs for nothing.I want you to see the light.to under stand that there is more to this life than random chance.there is jesus christ the lord and savior of my life.I can only hope that someday you,everyone of you will understand that there is a god.
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Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 7:40pm
Generally you hit the space bar after punctuation marks.
-------------
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 7:46pm
cool0 wrote:
my ideas aren't skewed as to what evolution is yours are.yours are also skewed as to my ideas to creationism.you beleive that evolution is true and that there are no other explanations.I don't know as to why you won't bother to tell me but I will try my best to tell all of you the truth because I do care. I belive that there are only 2 destinations after death.and unless you know beyond a shadow of a doubt where you are going.you probably wont get to go where you want to.I am not trying to make you abandon your beliefs for nothing.I want you to see the light.to under stand that there is more to this life than random chance.there is jesus christ the lord and savior of my life.I can only hope that someday you,everyone of you will understand that there is a god. |
At what point did any of us say there are no other possible explanations? Evolution is simply, in my mind, more inherently plausible and demonstrable according to everything we know than the theory of creationism. Neither implies the existence or nonexistence of your God. It's entirely possible we WERE created, potentially by a different God than the one that you, the Jews and the Muslims believe it. Given how many beliefs there are and have been, it's rather unlikely that IF there is some deity or group of deities that it happens to be exactly the one you believe in. It's also possible, as I mentioned towards the end of my post, that everything has proceeded according to current evolutionary theory, but that it was the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God that toppled the first domino. It's also possible that another God entirely did exactly the same thing.
Here's a simple question, one that determines whether there's any point at all in continuing this: Do you acknowledge, to any degree whatsoever, the possibility that your views, knowledge or opinions on evolution and natural selection might be flawed or incorrect?
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
|
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 7:47pm
mbro wrote:
Generally you hit the space bar after punctuation marks. |
Let him be, he's undergoing entropy.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
|
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 7:52pm
Benjichang wrote:
HOLY CRAP.
The amount of fail and misinformation in this thread is absolutely mind-blowing. I hope you guys are trolling.
I guess you guys don't believe in doctors or medicine or any of that "science" either.
|
HOLY CRAP.
Thats all you guys do! You dont explain your points, all you do is call us ignorant.
Its like taking a math test and saying ZOMG THIS IS STUPID just cause you cant do it. Its like you are giving up.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 7:54pm
Rofl_Mao wrote:
Benjichang wrote:
HOLY CRAP.
The amount of fail and misinformation in this thread is absolutely mind-blowing. I hope you guys are trolling.
I guess you guys don't believe in doctors or medicine or any of that "science" either.
|
HOLY CRAP.
Thats all you guys do! You dont explain your points, all you do is call us ignorant.
Its like taking a math test and saying ZOMG THIS IS STUPID just cause you cant do it. Its like you are giving up.
|
I don't call you ignorant, and I do explain my points. Care to address them? They're on page 2.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
|
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 7:56pm
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I was talking about Benji, Eville, HV.
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:00pm
Rofl_Mao wrote:
I was talking about Benji, Eville, HV.
|
They could do it, as could I. It is much easier to just call you ignorant.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: slackerr26
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:01pm
what do you mean 'us'?
and anyone else think that cool0 is related to FE?
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:16pm
Rofl_Mao wrote:
I think people are trusting in science too much. Don't get me wrong its a great thing, but it is not the most accurate thing in the world, in fact scientists are wrong most of the time. Everything is based on theories and educated guesses, except for the few laws like gravity and stuff. I'm just saying, I'm not going to base my whole life on something that is just made up of guesses. The big bang theory doesn't explain how life came to be, scientists still cannot figure that out. | The big bang theory and the origin of life have nothing to do with each other. Evolution has nothing to do with the big bang theory or the origin of life. Abiogenisis is what you are referring to, which is a hugely different study than either the big bang, or evolution.
Now ROFL, you disappointed me on a huge scale with your post. First of all, we don't even have a complete theory of gravity yet. Even that, is based on theories and educated guesses. I find it odd however, that you sit there in your air conditioned house, sitting at your computer, running off of electricity from a power station miles and miles and miles away from your home, you might be posting this from a cell phone capable of connecting to the Internet without any kind of wiring, maybe you are in a car as you are sending this see any planes flying in the sky around you? Remember how we found water on the moon earlier this year by the way? Or how about the time we landed on the moon? I'm also a fan of our GPS system running off of a bunch of satalites that we put into orbit over our planet. By the way, did you know we are currently working on a way to create invisability? We also have work being done on a time machine to send elementary particles back in time. Ever read much on the LHC btw? All the huge feats of engineering that had to come together to get that to work? Every single one of the things I mentioned, was brought to you, thanks to science, and you are seriously sitting there telling me that we don't actually know anything and that we are wrong most of the time? I must say, Good show old boy, I didn't realize you were blind. 
Side note #1, the scientific ignorance displayed in this thread is seriously mind blowing.
Side note #2, I too bought The Greatest Show on Earth but I have not finished it yet.
Side note #3, Dawkins had no idea what kind of documentary he was even being interview for, I was watching one of his talks on youtube and he brought this up, he had never even heard of Ben stein, he was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt in the interview.
Now then, Evolution.
1st, You say it's a theory? That is true, but you deeply misunderstand the use of the word theory as it relates to science. In day to day practice, a theory is just a random idea. That is not the case in science. The earth revolving around the sun is a theory. The moon effecting the ocean tides is a theory. The earth being round, is a theory. The scientific definition of theory means that the idea has been scrutinized, evaluated, checked for error, tested, etc. all of which done by more than one party, and the idea has never been disprove.
2nd, If you have ever properly studied science, you would realize you are full of crap. I'm a undergraduate physics student, read up on quantum mechanics. Many of the forumers here (altho, after this thready, my overall confidence in some of you has dropped.) are very well informed and educated in science. Evolution explains the complexity of life, starting from a very simple life form, up to what we have today. Its a very gradual process, but it does quite well to explain the diversity of life. Watch the blind watch maker video, it gives a visual idea to go behind the process that drives evolution - natural selection.
3rd, While the way you type does not diminish the strength of your arguments, I don't think you have too much to worry about. You don't seem to understand what evolution is or how it works. Once you have an understanding of the real concepts, then you can get upset about us ignoring your points. But as it stands, we expect you to understand the "theories" that you are discussing, which you clearly do not.
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
RIP T&O Forum
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:26pm
cool0 wrote:
choopie911 wrote:
It's not about what I think evolution is, it's about what evolution is. Your definition and concept of evolution is skewed, and your beliefs/ opinions make it even harder for you to see. Why would I bother trying to further explain what has already been explained to you, but you feel you still know better.
The others in this thread are already doing a fine job, and I'll leave it to Brihard and Tallen to best educate you. |
my ideas aren't skewed as to what evolution is yours are.yours are also skewed as to my ideas to creationism.you beleive that evolution is true and that there are no other explanations.I don't know as to why you won't bother to tell me but I will try my best to tell all of you the truth because I do care. I belive that there are only 2 destinations after death.and unless you know beyond a shadow of a doubt where you are going.you probably wont get to go where you want to.I am not trying to make you abandon your beliefs for nothing.I want you to see the light.to under stand that there is more to this life than random chance.there is jesus christ the lord and savior of my life.I can only hope that someday you,everyone of you will understand that there is a god. | By the way, you are full of crap. You know 100% sure, without a shadow of a doubt that you are going to heaven after you die? ORLLY? Have you been there to check it out? Tell me, what was it like? How did it look?
I am not trying to attack your religion, but seriously, you just got done saying, "yours are also skewed as to my ideas to creationism.you believe that evolution is true and that there are no other explanations." Flip the words around here, now try this, yours are also skewed as to my ideas to evolution.you believe that creation is true and that there are no other explanations. In all intellectual fairness, none of us know. When I die, I have an idea as to what will happen, but I have no way in the slightest to tell whether I am right or not. Neither do you. None of us have ever been dead, so you cannot tell me that you are certain what will happen. To say you know for sure is to follow by blind faith with no real evidence. (INB4 someone posts one of those videos abt TEH GUY WHOOZ DIED AND SAW HELLZ!)
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
RIP T&O Forum
|
Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:28pm
That sounds very much like a Pascal's Wager argument buried in there, Cool0. As in "Unless you know if you're going to heaven or hell it's better to wager that God is right so you go to heaven", is that about it?
Because I can destroy that argument.
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:29pm
Enos Shenk wrote:
That sounds very much like a Pascal's Wager argument buried in there, Cool0. As in "Unless you know if you're going to heaven or hell it's better to wager that God is right so you go to heaven", is that about it?
Because I can destroy that argument.
| So can I.
Also, people who follow religion simply because of pascal's wager really annoy me.
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
RIP T&O Forum
|
Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:33pm
Yeah. At least make it a challenge and whip out Descarte's proof of god or something. That one is fun to refute.
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:39pm
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as for brihard(I wont quote you because that is getting old) you bring up some good points. natural selection is not what I am disputing here. you have probably heard about the light and dark colored moths example.which is perfectly true and valid, but how does colored moths make evolution true?once again you say that certain mutations may help an organism reproduce.but may i remind you that there is a huge difference between animals reproducing after their own kind ( the law of biogenisis which is an actual scientific law) and animals turning into a new species (evolution).you said that "It has been proven many times that species adapt to selective pressures." yes I have already covered this this is called adaptation not evolution.adaptation it is an actual process that happens every where.yes foscils are exceptionaly rare because they have to be covered very quickly.but if we have found all these fossils of dinosaurs and other animals why not even one missing link?if you beleive in evolution then you beleive that life came from inorganic matter then why is my analogy of a car irrelevent? when you said "Who's to say God did not 'spark the fire' so to speak" it certainly wasn't my god because it goes compleetly against the book of genesis true some people beleive that god started evolution.this is called theistic evolution.don't get me wrong I appreciate you not tromping the bible but the bible doesn't mention velociraptors because that worh wasn't arround when it was written.instead it calls dinosaurs, dragons.like the behemoth,and the leviathan.
here is what the bible has to say about the behemoth.sounds like a dinosaur to me.if it is a dinosaur then that means that a man saw it and wrote it down.but according to evolution people and dinosaurs never existed together.interesting
15 Behold now the behemoth that I have made with you; he eats grass like cattle. 16 Behold now his strength is in his loins and his power is in the navel of his belly. 17 His tail hardens like a cedar; the sinews of his tendons are knit together. 18 His limbs are as strong as copper, his bones as a load of iron. 19 His is the first of God's ways; [only] his Maker can draw His sword [against him]. 20 For the mountains bear food for him, and all the beasts of the field play there. 21 Does he lie under the shadows, in the cover of the reeds and the swamp? 22 Do the shadows cover him as his shadow? Do the willows of the brook surround him? 23 Behold, he plunders the river, and [he] does not harden; he trusts that he will draw the Jordan into his mouth. 24 With His eyes He will take him; with snares He will puncture his nostrils.
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:47pm
cool0 wrote:
once again you say that certain mutations may help an organism reproduce.but may i remind you that there is a huge difference between animals reproducing after their own kind ( the law of biogenisis which is an actual scientific law) and animals turning into a new species (evolution).you said that "It has been proven many times that species adapt to selective pressures." yes I have already covered this this is called adaptation not evolution. |
First of all, please learn to type. Some capital letters and spaces would do wonders.
You don't understand evolution if you think that it is an animal turning into another species.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: slackerr26
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:51pm
im no expert and i could very well be wrong, but isn't adaptation a form of evolution?
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Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 9:32pm
Bible verses can't be used as "proof" in any sort of rational discussion. There are enough contadictions and errors in the bible to call the entire thing into question. It simply cannot be used as anything other than an example of your faith.
See, I don't have any problem with people believing religious explanations. The problem comes when they try to rationally "prove" their side of things, which is an absolute impossibility. If you could prove it, you wouldn't call it faith. Also, if you could prove it, I'd be a christian.
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Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 9:51pm
Oh my God*... I'm not sure what to even say...
Rofl_Mao, cool0, thanks. This is the most fun I've had here in a while!
"BLINDED BY THE LIGHT! REVVED UP LIKE A DEUCE, ANOTHER RUNNER IN THE NIGHT!"
* Irony
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 10:33pm
OH THE LULZ!!!!!1eleven1 at the 0 missing link finds comment.
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
RIP T&O Forum
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 10:37pm
Cool0, in reference to your DNA argument. Anything over a 1-2% shift in DNA makeup is considered to be an adaptation or mutation. Anything greater is enough to differentiate a new species. Here's your evolution in our time:
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/teens-discover-new-species-of-cockroach-in-new-york-city - Evolution in NY.
------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 1:59am
slackerr26 wrote:
im no expert and i could very well be wrong, but isn't adaptation a form of evolution? |
actualy it depends on how you look at is if you beleive evolution then you would say yes it is evolution.but if you beleive creationism like i do. then you will under stand that adaptation is simply animals adapting to their conditions.such as there are dogs that can live in atlanta florida in 110F and dogs that live in alaska in -40F.
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 2:15am
I tend to avoid these posts because I don't know either side well enough to argue it convincingly.
On that note take what I say with any amount of salt you wish.
It strikes me that most of the people fighting the religious side broker no concept that they could be wrong. I DO understand that a lot of this has to do with the fact the Bible says it is the word of God and thus correct. However, put up your hands everyone who has read it in the orginal Hebrew, Latin, Sanscrit, whatever?
There are differences between my New American and my King James versions!
Which religion is right? How is your belief more correct than Islam? Or Judaism? They all worship the same God, the God of Abraham. So not only does Christianity claim superiority over science, but it is also the most correct out of the various religious theories? Conceited much?
Scientists are always refining their theories. They are not only willing to change, but actively trying to refine their understanding. Religion can't even agree on which branch of Christianity which is correct. Catholic, Anglican, Protestant, 7th Day Adventist? Hell the Catholics and the Protestants have been actively at war in Ireland until recently. During the Second World War scientists were still sharing knowledge and discoveries.
I do believe in belief. I understand it that the idea is belief without proof but depending on your definition, the number of people alive today is greater than the total number of people who have lived since Bible times. Some of the staunchest Bible bashers I've met have stories of personal experience or other "proof". Proof of something you are meant to take on faith. Then they try persuade me to take them at their word. Why is "proof" only good for some? Why is it always the dregs of society who have experiences that turns them to God? Why not the average, teetering on belief who get "proof"? Yet an offer of scientific evidence is ignored and followed by imploring you to believe. God could harvest more souls if Christ did come again now than have lived since the Bible began.
Yet scientific evidence, which is peer reviewed, and something you can reproduce yourself, is flatly ignored generally without the consideration of actually disproving it. Science isn't the absence of God. Science is looking at explaining how things work. Even if they do manage to find a Grand Unifying Theory of some sort, there is still the overall question of "how". How did whatever created the universe happen?
Personally I subscribe to a belief along the lines of guided evolution.
And for all the people saying typing with correct punctuation isn't required, please. While it does not automatically invalidate what you type, the English language has customs and rules. That makes it easier to follow what someone is saying. It prevents confusion. It also happens to mean we are all talking (reading) the same language.
Iz propa. Punkeweation, really seW imPoRtanT not realie.? Butt wat duz.? It ? Hurt?
Honestly, is it so hard to follow a few basic laws that everyone else accepts as a standard? Not doing so shows a distinct lack of appreciation for how communication actually works.
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 12:10pm
The amount of carnage in this thread is what really amazes me. Bloody good show, chaps. I'll look forward to having the time to contribute to this conversation... somewhere between Turkish babe who seems to be naturally selecting me and my next day in a city plagued by the theory of plate tectonics.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 12:34pm
cool0 wrote:
slackerr26 wrote:
im no expert and i could very well be wrong, but isn't adaptation a form of evolution? |
actualy it depends on how you look at is if you beleive evolution then you would say yes it is evolution.but if you beleive creationism like i do. then you will under stand that adaptation is simply animals adapting to their conditions.such as there are dogs that can live in atlanta florida in 110F and dogs that live in alaska in -40F. |
But that's exactly what evolution is. Creatures adapt continuously over literally millions of years, tens or hundreds of thousands of generation. Those adaptations continue on, amassing and amassing. Eventually there is enough change that the creature has become visibly distinct from an identifiable ancestor. Why should that not have happened to human ancestors, leading to what we are now? We've observed evolution in many other species. We have DNA as well, we undergo mutations as well. We adapt to selective pressures. Yet are we somehow immune to evolution?
It blows my mind that you are attempting to challenge evolution earlier on in this thread based on challenges to its scientific rigor, yet you're supporting your own argument by quoting a modern version of the Bible. That's just sheer hypocrisy on your part, and the part that worries me is that you seem genuinely blind to it.
Creationism is a theory based off of the limits of human understanding approximately 600 to 1600 years BC. We can't even trace exactly where the bible came from with any confidence into that point- it's a thousand year date range in the estimation of its origins. We don't know where it came from or who wrote it. Originally it was in old Hebrew and Aramaic, and was translated form that into ancient Greek. The oldest known full copy of the old testament (at that point still the Hebrew bible) is a greek translation circa the 4th century AD. From there it has been further translated and reinterpreted a number of times. We can't even say with real certainty what the bible in its most original form even said.
God and evolution do not have to be exclusive of each other, as said. Nobody here is trying to disprove your God. I just want to point out the weaknesses in your argument. You are professing beliefs based on faith that fly contrary to thing that we know with absolute scientific certainty. There were human beings on this earth more than six thousand years ago, and there were hominid ancestors of ours up to about 5 or 7 million years ago. In the hundreds of millions of years prior to that there were many other species, some of which do and some of which don't still exist. We know that the continents have drifted, that landmasses have upheaved. The earth is more than six thousand years old. IT is simply pure blindness not to accept that, however you are trapped into having to profess false faith based interpretations simply because you feel that evolution is a threat to God, or, more importantly, to the understanding of God that has been taught to you, and the idea that has been drilled into you that that knowledge is infallible. It is not.
Human being err. Human beings misinterpret. We misunderstand. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that the interpretations of your religious doctrines have, in the past, been wrong. It's pure human hubris to believe that thousands of years ago we were enlightened enough to be so certain as to our origins as to wave that faith in the face of every thing we've been able to scientifically discover and deduce since.
You yourself show a decent enough understanding of adaptation in response to selective pressures. You're willing enough to admit that it happens in animals, so why not in humans? Even across races we see many different physiological differences that are responses to environments in which populations have lived for tens of thousands of years. When did these races diverge? If you believe in the literal words of Genesis you must then also believe we are all descended from Adam and Eve- so what colour were they? Most portrayals in art depict them as white, but there's no rational basis for believing that? When was the first Asian baby born, and to whom? How, in six thousand years, have humans spread to all corners of the globe as they have, and grown to look different as they have? How is it that in such a short amount of time, the majority of human beings have not kept a common religion or understanding of their heritage if, in fact, we are all so recently come from one couple in ancient Mesopotamia?
You're a smart dude, you need to look at your own beliefs critically and ask what does and doesn't make sense. You also need to ask yourself, in what way does evolution threaten God? Because it doesn't. Your belief system is flawed if you continue to literally believe the words of the old testament, however the principles remain sound. There's nothing that has happened in the six billion years the earth has existed that the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God could not have set in motion were it to be inclined to do so. There's still nothing wrong with the ten commandments, or with the teachings of the prophet Christ.
There are a lot of people who retain faith in God as their ultimate creator, and who keep faith in the teachings of religion about how to live your life, buts till accept our growing understanding of the processes by which everything we see around us has come to be. There's nothing wrong with that. To chain yourself to literal belief in a book whose origins we don't know is to blinker yourself to our increasing understanding of the world. You've been prejudiced by your environment and your upbringing to the point where your zeal has made you complicit in lying to yourself.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 2:20pm
Rofl_Mao wrote:
I was talking about Benji, Eville, HV.
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I told you guys he was trolling. Plenty of others have posted with very relevant information and he ignored them to continue to cry that someone worded something harshly on the internet. LURK MOAR.
-------------
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 7:35pm
brihard wrote:
cool0 wrote:
slackerr26 wrote:
im no expert and i could very well be wrong, but isn't adaptation a form of evolution? |
actualy it depends on how you look at is if you beleive evolution then you would say yes it is evolution.but if you beleive creationism like i do. then you will under stand that adaptation is simply animals adapting to their conditions.such as there are dogs that can live in atlanta florida in 110F and dogs that live in alaska in -40F. |
But that's exactly what evolution is. Creatures adapt continuously over literally millions of years, tens or hundreds of thousands of generation. Those adaptations continue on, amassing and amassing. Eventually there is enough change that the creature has become visibly distinct from an identifiable ancestor. Why should that not have happened to human ancestors, leading to what we are now? We've observed evolution in many other species. We have DNA as well, we undergo mutations as well. We adapt to selective pressures. Yet are we somehow immune to evolution?
It blows my mind that you are attempting to challenge evolution earlier on in this thread based on challenges to its scientific rigor, yet you're supporting your own argument by quoting a modern version of the Bible. That's just sheer hypocrisy on your part, and the part that worries me is that you seem genuinely blind to it.
Creationism is a theory based off of the limits of human understanding approximately 600 to 1600 years BC. We can't even trace exactly where the bible came from with any confidence into that point- it's a thousand year date range in the estimation of its origins. We don't know where it came from or who wrote it. Originally it was in old Hebrew and Aramaic, and was translated form that into ancient Greek. The oldest known full copy of the old testament (at that point still the Hebrew bible) is a greek translation circa the 4th century AD. From there it has been further translated and reinterpreted a number of times. We can't even say with real certainty what the bible in its most original form even said.
God and evolution do not have to be exclusive of each other, as said. Nobody here is trying to disprove your God. I just want to point out the weaknesses in your argument. You are professing beliefs based on faith that fly contrary to thing that we know with absolute scientific certainty. There were human beings on this earth more than six thousand years ago, and there were hominid ancestors of ours up to about 5 or 7 million years ago. In the hundreds of millions of years prior to that there were many other species, some of which do and some of which don't still exist. We know that the continents have drifted, that landmasses have upheaved. The earth is more than six thousand years old. IT is simply pure blindness not to accept that, however you are trapped into having to profess false faith based interpretations simply because you feel that evolution is a threat to God, or, more importantly, to the understanding of God that has been taught to you, and the idea that has been drilled into you that that knowledge is infallible. It is not.
Human being err. Human beings misinterpret. We misunderstand. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that the interpretations of your religious doctrines have, in the past, been wrong. It's pure human hubris to believe that thousands of years ago we were enlightened enough to be so certain as to our origins as to wave that faith in the face of every thing we've been able to scientifically discover and deduce since.
You yourself show a decent enough understanding of adaptation in response to selective pressures. You're willing enough to admit that it happens in animals, so why not in humans? Even across races we see many different physiological differences that are responses to environments in which populations have lived for tens of thousands of years. When did these races diverge? If you believe in the literal words of Genesis you must then also believe we are all descended from Adam and Eve- so what colour were they? Most portrayals in art depict them as white, but there's no rational basis for believing that? When was the first Asian baby born, and to whom? How, in six thousand years, have humans spread to all corners of the globe as they have, and grown to look different as they have? How is it that in such a short amount of time, the majority of human beings have not kept a common religion or understanding of their heritage if, in fact, we are all so recently come from one couple in ancient Mesopotamia?
You're a smart dude, you need to look at your own beliefs critically and ask what does and doesn't make sense. You also need to ask yourself, in what way does evolution threaten God? Because it doesn't. Your belief system is flawed if you continue to literally believe the words of the old testament, however the principles remain sound. There's nothing that has happened in the six billion years the earth has existed that the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God could not have set in motion were it to be inclined to do so. There's still nothing wrong with the ten commandments, or with the teachings of the prophet Christ.
There are a lot of people who retain faith in God as their ultimate creator, and who keep faith in the teachings of religion about how to live your life, buts till accept our growing understanding of the processes by which everything we see around us has come to be. There's nothing wrong with that. To chain yourself to literal belief in a book whose origins we don't know is to blinker yourself to our increasing understanding of the world. You've been prejudiced by your environment and your upbringing to the point where your zeal has made you complicit in lying to yourself. |
you are missing the point about me quoting the bible.I am not saying that this is what the bible says and so you had better beleive it.I am saying that it is an actual book that some one atleast a thousand years ago wrote down.he is describing a brontosaurus(ever seen jurassic park) that means that some one saw it and some wrote it down.only a few thousand years ago.people and dinosaurs co-existed.let me try quoteing it again.
15 Behold now the behemoth that I have made with you; he eats grass like cattle. 16 Behold now his strength is in his loins and his power is in the navel of his belly. 17 His tail hardens like a cedar; the sinews of his tendons are knit together. 18 His limbs are as strong as copper, his bones as a load of iron. 19 His is the first of God's ways; [only] his Maker can draw His sword [against him]. 20 For the mountains bear food for him, and all the beasts of the field play there. 21 Does he lie under the shadows, in the cover of the reeds and the swamp? 22 Do the shadows cover him as his shadow? Do the willows of the brook surround him? 23 Behold, he plunders the river, and [he] does not harden; he trusts that he will draw the Jordan into his mouth. 24 With His eyes He will take him; with snares He will puncture his nostrils.
he just perfectly described this
"he eats grass" the brontosaurus was a herbavore.
"his tail hardens like a cedar" that tail is huge!!! you might even say that it is like a cedar tree.
"his limbs are as strong as copper" yep they look prety strong to me.
#21 and #22 tell how tall he was.
that description proves that dinosaurs have only died off a few thousand years ago not the millions and millions that evolution claims.
I never said that humans don't adapt in a simaler way as animals do. look at how diverse humans are there are whites, blacks, asians, ect. yes I do beleive in the literal words of genesis,and in adam and eve.I do agree that most paintings dipict them as white and that there is no way to tell exactly what color they were.painting them white is just artistic license.also most paintings depict jesus as white but most likely because he was living in the middle east he had much darker skin. it doesn't even really matter if they had dark skin or light skin.the problem with evolution is that adaptation never leads to another species. you will always have dogs no matter how much they adapt.you say that there is definate scientific proof that "there were hominid ancestors of ours up to about 5 or 7 million years ago" you can't prove it you can only dig up bones from the ground and call them millions of years old.I know about the geologic colum and the suposed dates of the rocks. evolutionists reguarly date the fossils by the rocks and the rocks by the fossils.that is circular reasoning and does not belong in science.if you think that there is no reasonable evidence against evolution try this. http://www.whyevolution.com/ - http://www.whyevolution.com/
so now we get down to what evolution and creationism really are.
they are not science versus religion. they are one religion versus another religion.in both you have to take many things on faith alone.in evolution you have to beleive that animals, and humans, with a touch of the secret ingredient(millions and millions of years)can turn into other species entirely.you also probably beleive that life came from nonlife,and if you beleive in the big bang then you beleive that matter came from nothing. in creationism you have to beleive that there is a god that created everything. there are also some people that you keep talking about that are theistic evoultionists.they basicaly beleive that god used evolution to create everything.but if you beleive that then you have to disregard all the book of genesis. if you are going to reject the very start of the bible then you might as well reject all of it.I for one beleive all of the bible and believe that god created the world,all its inhabitants, and the universe that surrounds it.
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 7:48pm
cool0 wrote:
slackerr26 wrote:
im no expert and i could very well be wrong, but isn't adaptation a form of evolution? |
actualy it depends on how you look at is if you beleive evolution then you would say yes it is evolution.but if you beleive creationism like i do. then you will under stand that adaptation is simply animals adapting to their conditions.such as there are dogs that can live in atlanta florida in 110F and dogs that live in alaska in -40F. | 
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
RIP T&O Forum
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 10:18pm
cool0 has to be FE's new account.
How do you know the Brontosaurus was a herbivore if not for the science that says they were around millions of years ago?
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 10:45pm
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And why are dinosaur bones so rare if they were in abundance only six thousand years ago? If you read the REST of the Wikipedia article on 'Behemoth', you'll see how the description is equally applied to elephants, hippopotami, and crocodiles depending on different interpretations. Any why are there no similar descriptions or Tyrannosaurus or other massive carnivores that, I'm rather certain, would have been noteworthy and of concern to earlier peoples armed only with primitive bronze weapons and armour? What killed off all the dinosaurs, when, and why did everything else currently on the earth survive? Where are all the dinosaur fossils?
Again, I ask you: Do you acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that either you, or the people who have told you the things you believe, are wrong?
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 11:41pm
Theres a great deal I would like to correct with your posts, but I doubt you'll pay any heed to this anyway, judging by the rest of the thread and the mounds and mounds of evidence folks have already presented to you and you've disregarded. That being said, two things you said I can't ignore.
cool0 wrote:
that description proves that dinosaurs have only died off a few thousand years ago not the millions and millions that evolution claims. |
That wouldn't be evolution, that would be geology and radiocarbon dating, both of which are based on rather remarkably testable (and proven) theories.
beleive that life came from nonlife |
As has been pointed out many times in this thread already, that is the theory of abiogenesis, NOT evolution. Evolution assumes some form of life already exists. Maybe it spawned by abiogenesis, maybe it came on a meteor from some other world, maybe God reached down and made it. It doesn't care where life came from, just how it changes, and explains the broad range of life.
However, for grins and giggles, lets explore just one of many ideas of how life could have begun without a God.
In the early years of the Earth, about 4 billion years ago, Earth's "oceans" (for want of a better term) could best be described as a rich "soup" of organic compounds (compounds which contain carbon, named because they often are compounds used in life), as well as far more complex compounds known as amino acids, the building blocks of proteins. Where did these compounds come from? It was proposed in the early 1900s that Earth's initial atmosphere and surface, combined with the intense heat and violent conditions on the surface could create organic compounds. The Miller-Urey experiment, which combined likely ingredients from the early atmosphere and surface such as water, hydrogen, ammonia and methane, tested just that and found 5 different amino acids. Later recreations of the experiment showed that Urey and Miller made a mistake. They missed 17 of the amino acids they created, bringing the total up to 22 amino acids. These simple building blocks of far more complex proteins could be shown to be made from inorganic compounds.
Thats all fine and dandy, but how does that create life? Proteins don't just spontaneously form, and even if they did that wouldn't be a lifeform. The answer comes somewhat from viruses. A virus is just a strand of DNA or RNA encased in a protein shell. It invades cells to reproduce by making use of the DNA and RNA creation "tools" inside of every cell. Researchers noticed that RNA by itself an reproduce and carry genetic information, as well as create proteins. Thats why cells copy DNA to RNA in the nucleus, then send it out to make proteins in the cell. Amino acids just bind to sites on the RNA (parts of genes) and then to each other to make a protein.
The idea is that the earliest life forms may have just been RNA strands, or more likely, some simpler compounds. Imagine some polymer of simple compounds which just randomly organize themselves into different configurations. Now lets say these polymers could bind with amino acids, like RNA molecules. Amino acids would bump into these molecules and start to bind to them and make proteins, many of which might do nothing, but some of which might start to have a function. Perhaps the configuration might break apart a compound to make the basic ingredients for the polymer. Perhaps it might even help that polymer recreate itself. That configuration would survive then, and reproduce itself. Over time a lipid layer might form around the RNA strand, to help it control its environment. It might intersect with other simple things like it, and form a symbiotic relationship. From inorganic material, life-like actions start to materialize.
So yes, life CAN come from nonlife, as you put it. But none of this has anything to do with evolution at all.
------------- Real Men play Tuba
[IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg">
PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf!
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 2:57am
jmac3 wrote:
cool0 has to be FE's new account.How do you know the Brontosaurus was a herbivore if not for the science that says they were around millions of years ago?
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Because it says so in Genesis. Duh.
KBK
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Posted By: cool0
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 4:43pm
brihard wrote:
And why are dinosaur bones so rare if they were in abundance only six thousand years ago? If you read the REST of the Wikipedia article on 'Behemoth', you'll see how the description is equally applied to elephants, hippopotami, and crocodiles depending on different interpretations. Any why are there no similar descriptions or Tyrannosaurus or other massive carnivores that, I'm rather certain, would have been noteworthy and of concern to earlier peoples armed only with primitive bronze weapons and armour? What killed off all the dinosaurs, when, and why did everything else currently on the earth survive? Where are all the dinosaur fossils?
Again, I ask you: Do you acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that either you, or the people who have told you the things you believe, are wrong? |
ha, the discription applies to elephants and hippopotami? did you even read the part that says its tail is like a cedar.elephants and hippopotami have wimpy stick tails.don't make me put up a picture of a elephant's rear end. because I will do it to prove my point.there are plenty depictions of dinosaurs other than the behemoth.here are some ancient depictions of dinosaurs. http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm - http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm
most likely climate shifts and oxygen levels comming down killed them.there have been very large dinosaurs with rather small nostrils.the only posible way that they could have lived to grow that big is if the air contained more oxygen than the air of today.evolution claims that there was very little oxygen in the day of the dinosaurs.you ask where all the dinosaur fosscils are not all animals that die are fosscilized the buffalo were abundant on the great plains but when most of them were killed off by humans they rotted, they never fossilized.
brihard wrote:
Again, I ask you: Do you acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that either you, or the people who have told you the things you believe, are wrong? |
I will acknowledge that there is a possibility that I might be wrong when a missing link is found,when you figure out how earths atmosfere that is perfectly suited to sustain life.when the evolutionists figure out why the earth is placed the correct distance from the sun,so that we don't burn up or freeze.according to you people all that came about by accident. according to me it was designed by god who wanted us to not only live but to flourish.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 4:52pm
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 5:19pm
cool0 wrote:
when you figure out how earths atmosfere that is perfectly suited to sustain life.. |
Thats an easy one. Life developed here so is able to survive in it.
Hardly higher grade that one. If the atmosphere was different the life forms would be different. We are from here, which is why it matches all our requirements. We evolved to fit the planet.
Duh again. It is only perfectly situated to sustain OUR type of life, because we evolved here.
I'm not saying God didn't MAKE us evolve here, just that we find it so pleasant here because here is where we live.
Actually, science says there was more oxygen around when the dinosaurs were alive. (Journal of Experimental Botany, Vol. 52, No. 357, pp. 801-809, April 15, 2001)
This is a Cedar tree.
This is your "Behemoth"
Where is the Cedar tree tail?
I wonder about the statement made earlier about not getting life from non life. Isn't that exactly what God did when me hade Adam out of mud?
KBK
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 6:39pm
cool0 wrote:
brihard wrote:
And why are dinosaur bones so rare if they were in abundance only six thousand years ago? If you read the REST of the Wikipedia article on 'Behemoth', you'll see how the description is equally applied to elephants, hippopotami, and crocodiles depending on different interpretations. Any why are there no similar descriptions or Tyrannosaurus or other massive carnivores that, I'm rather certain, would have been noteworthy and of concern to earlier peoples armed only with primitive bronze weapons and armour? What killed off all the dinosaurs, when, and why did everything else currently on the earth survive? Where are all the dinosaur fossils?
Again, I ask you: Do you acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that either you, or the people who have told you the things you believe, are wrong? |
ha, the discription applies to elephants and hippopotami? did you even read the part that says its tail is like a cedar.elephants and hippopotami have wimpy stick tails.don't make me put up a picture of a elephant's rear end. because I will do it to prove my point.there are plenty depictions of dinosaurs other than the behemoth.here are some ancient depictions of dinosaurs. http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm - http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm
most likely climate shifts and oxygen levels comming down killed them.there have been very large dinosaurs with rather small nostrils.the only posible way that they could have lived to grow that big is if the air contained more oxygen than the air of today.evolution claims that there was very little oxygen in the day of the dinosaurs.you ask where all the dinosaur fosscils are not all animals that die are fosscilized the buffalo were abundant on the great plains but when most of them were killed off by humans they rotted, they never fossilized.
brihard wrote:
Again, I ask you: Do you acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that either you, or the people who have told you the things you believe, are wrong? |
I will acknowledge that there is a possibility that I might be wrong when a missing link is found,when you figure out how earths atmosfere that is perfectly suited to sustain life.when the evolutionists figure out why the earth is placed the correct distance from the sun,so that we don't burn up or freeze.according to you people all that came about by accident. according to me it was designed by god who wanted us to not only live but to flourish. |
Yes, I read that part- see, I read the ENTIRE article, including the part that debunks the young earth creationist interpretation.
the REST of the same article wrote:
Some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_Creationist - Young Earth Creationists propose that the Behemoth is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur - dinosaur . Some sort of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropod - sauropod is usually proposed since large sauropods had tails "like a cedar". Adherents of the sauropod-behemoth viewpoint hold that the further descriptions given in Job (i.e., bone strength equaling bronze and iron; the use of Hebrew plural to describe a singular specimen), along with the attributive "chief of the ways of God," and the description "like a cedar" (זְנָבוֹ כְמוֹ-אָרֶז z'navo kamo arez) to describe the tail itself point to an animal of immense proportions; hence a sauropod or equivalent. Some however argue that the references to a cedar-like tail refer to bristles resembling the cedar's needle-like leaves which are present on the tails of elephants and hippopotamus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behemoth#cite_note-BOTF-2 - [3] Critics argue that according to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_record - fossil record , and the spoon or pencil-shaped teeth of the sauropods themselves, sauropods were tree-browsers that lived 225 million years ago, and went extinct some 65 million years ago. Furthermore, they cite that the earliest grass fossils date to the late http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous - Cretaceous , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behemoth#cite_note-3 - [4] at which time the sauropods were already in decline; as such, critics insist that Sauropods would pre-date the appearance and rise of both people and grasses. Critics also note that, according to the Biblical text, the Behemoth is said to eat grass in the manner of an ox, meaning it would chew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cud - cud ; a requirement of such behaviour is the possession of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_%28tooth%29 - molar teeth , an attribute sauropods lacked. The spoon or pencil-shaped teeth of sauropods allowed them to pull vegetation into their mouths, then to be swallowed. It may also be noted that the hippopotamus does not chew cud as it is not a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruminantia - ruminant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artiodactyl - artiodactyl . Critics also argue that the description of the creature possessing a navel (Job 40:16) in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KJV - King James Version also contradicts the sauropod hypothesis, because sauropods were http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oviparous - oviparous . |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behemoth - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behemoth
There's the article so you can go back and read the rest of it, in case you lost the link.
You have now spent several days ignoring every single thing I said except for the smallest aspects of detail which the young earth creationists have offered some contrived explanation for.
In a universe of literally millions of galaxies, each with hundreds of thousands of stars, planetary masses must, according to probability, form in pretty much all possible configurations at all distances from and in all possible orbits around all possible types and varieties of stars. Already in our own galactic neighbourhood we've discovered dozens, possibly by this point hundreds of planets around other stars.
We've found H2O ice on the moon and mars, we have evidence of hydrological activity on mars. Further, here's an article on the history of Earth's atmosphere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earths_atmosphere#Evolution_of_Earth.27s_atmosphere - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_atmosphere#Evolution_of_Earth.27s_atmosphere Earlier you tried to throw mud at me, accusing me of not properly studying science when you threw that ridiculous interpretation of Entropy at me (that I picked apart, and which you in turn ignored), so please, go, read some science and then get back to me.
Your attempt at excusing the lack of modern dinosaur fossils is hilarious. Why are none preserved below the slopes of Vesuvius? Why are none present in ice the way we occasionally find mastodons? Why are there none in the various tar ponds that occasionally cough up other extinct creatures? Why are there no records of dinosaurs being present in the Roman games, where surely they must have been a potentially amazing attraction? What about all the smaller dinosaurs that would not have required the higher oxygen content you assert the sauropods would have needed? Why of all the exhumed bodies of large cats have we never found the remains of the smallest dinosaurs in their stomachs? What about carbon dating? What about the entire science of geology and paleontology? Why are there no remaining dinosaurs on deserted islands with no human presence? How did humans survive the asteroid strike that dug out the Gulf of Mexico, yet dinosaurs went extinct? Why do we have archaologically verified human remains from tens of thousands of years ago? How is it that we have been able to anthropologically trace the slow expansion of the human race over the earth starting with sites concretely dated to 60,000 years ago? Oh, hey, here's a good one- Why does the site that YOU LINKED TO identify the origin of some of thsoe cave paintings as caverns "renowned for Neanderthal artifacts", when Homo Neanderthalensis has been extinct for at least 24,000 years? Do you reject the validity of every single archaeological or paleontological artifact that has ever been dated as more than 6,000 years old? Do you reject every single astronomical observation that suggests the universe has been in existence for over 6,000 years? Why have you ignored at least 9 out of every 10 points or questions I've brought up so far in this discussion?
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 6:44pm
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Incidentally, this is awesome: http://www.theonion.com/content/news/sumerians_look_on_in_confusion_as - http://www.theonion.com/content/news/sumerians_look_on_in_confusion_as
EDIT TO ADD: And this is a neat read... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_civilization - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_civilization
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 8:14pm
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^ Dammit Bri, I was about to post that onion link.
But since we are talking about the age of earth/the universe. I'm going to go ahead and throw this out here since its a lovely little fact from my study.
Cool0, even if you want to completely ignore carbon dating, radioactive dating, dendrochronology, etc.. Follow me on this one. Light travels at a set speed through a vacuum, it does not ever go any faster than roughly 186,000 miles per second. A light year, is the distance that light travels in one year. Which is 5,878,625,373,184 miles. You still with me? Okay, so for us to see an object, the light has to travel from that object, to us, which takes time. When you look up at the night sky, you see objects as they were, not as they are now, because light travel is not instant. Assuming the earth really was 6,000 years old, we would not be able to see across the entire milky way. Yet we can actually see much farther than this. Andromeda, the closest galaxy to us, is just over 2.2 million light years away. Which means it takes 2.2 million years for the light to travel from Andromeda to us. Amazingly, we have actually confirmed seeing an object 13.1 billion light years from earth. This self-destructing star is only about 6 million years younger than the universe is currently theorized to be (The scientific version of theory, not the everyday version.). How would we possibly be able to see 13 billion light years away from us, if light moves at a fixed rate of speed, if the universe is only 6,000 years old? I'm not a mathematician but 6,000 years =/= 13,000,000,000 years.
Now it has been proposed to me that god did that intentionally. He did not make Adam to look like a young boy, why would he create the universe to appear so young? I find it very difficult, however, to believe that a being, who hinges the eternal damnation/salvation upon their belief and acceptance of him, would go out of his way to make it appear so incredibly improbable that he exists to begin with. And if you were going to do so, why would you set it up so that all the evidence is actually consistent with a theory that removes you, in many peoples minds?
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
RIP T&O Forum
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 8:15pm
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^ Sauce on 13.1 billion year old star.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17035-most-distant-object-in-the-universe-spotted.html - http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17035-most-distant-object-in-the-universe-spotted.html
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
RIP T&O Forum
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