US Soldier Mom refuses deployment
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Topic: US Soldier Mom refuses deployment
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Subject: US Soldier Mom refuses deployment
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 10:48am
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ap_on_re_us/us_soldier_mom_deployment - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ap_on_re_us/us_soldier_mom_deployment
Discuss.
tl/dr: Single mom in army can't find someone to watch her kid, so she skips her flight. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Replies:
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 11:23am
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What exactly is she supposed to do? Leave them on the street and say have fun! Be back in 6 months! (maybe) ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 11:25am
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I support her decision. Her duty to her child is greater than her duty to the military. ------------- <Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules> |
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 11:27am
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As long as this is legit, and she actually let them know prior to their deployment and as long as this is not a ploy to get out of going, I support her decision.
------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 11:29am
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I agree with the above comments.
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 11:39am
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Let's play Devil's Advocate, and say she isn't able to find suitable child care? She signed a contract stating that she had said child care and obviously didn't. Should she be jailed? Discharged? Honorably? Dishonorably? If she is allowed to stay in the Army and reassigned, what sort of precedence does this set? It's not like she signed up during peace time and "oh crap!" we went to war. She signed up during an ongoing war, fully knowing that she would most likely get deployed. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Ben Grimm
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 11:48am
That goes both ways. The Army allowed her to enlist, knowing that she had a child (or might have a child), and put her on the deployment list knowing that she had primary care of a child. What kind of foolish employer puts themselves in that position?
While the soldier may be a fool for signing up for a job she cannot fulfill, the Army is equally a fool for putting people in jobs they cannot fulfill. The Army should either change their policy on enlisting/assigning/deploying single parents, or provide a means to allow them to serve (childcare in Iraq probably isn't very attractive, but I am trying to think outside the sandbox here).
But for now, between the two of them, they have created quite a silly situation.
------------- It's Clobberin' Time! |
oldpbnoob wrote:Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 12:40pm
You can't (legally) exclude the hiring of single parents from jobs that would require extensive travel in the private sector, should the government be exempt from such restrictions?
What are the actual regulations on single parenthood in the military? If GI Joe is in action and his wife dies suddenly leaving his child at home parentless, do they take him out of action and reassign him? Or does he get discharged? I would be curious if anyone knows.
Are we looking at a double standard? ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 12:40pm
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If she has a child that needs taking care of, what the hell is she doing in the military? She has a child that needs her, THAT is her responsibility. What's the other side of this, she manages to find a person to look after her kid, and then gets K.I.A, what now for that kid? I know they wouldn't be the first to lose a parent to the war at all, but what on earth is she thinking?
When will we need a license to have children? |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 12:48pm
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By regulations a single parent MUST have a valid Child Care Plan for the event of deployment. Opening up enlistment to single parents was hailed as a victory for females and created a Equal Opertunity Enviornment as stated by the usual suspects.
Upon her enlistment and at regular intervals single parents must update thier Child Care Plan, and document any changes in status ASAP. The female single parent had no problem collecting her paycheck, any bonuses, and all benifits provided by the military. It was HER responsibility to keep the Child Care Plan current (part of the Deployment Packet) for all change of station/deployment orders are based on review of all critical personnel issues. I see this as a UCMJ issue, she defrauded the US Government by signing up for a job she could not do (possibly know at time of enlistment). Minimal action should be a General Discharge, forfieture of all pay and allowances on unit deployment (if she has not seperated by deployment date)and a RE-4 re-enlistment code (can not re-enlist even if personal circumstances change). Many single parents serve and do so without problem, the system works, if the soldier in question follows regulations. This one individual can not and did not provide the required Child Care Plan, under regulations, so it is on her not the military. The soon to be pity party will not be told how she did not follow regulations, only how harsh the military is to single parents, which is not the case in 99.9% of single parent servicemembers, ------------- 
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 12:55pm
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That's pretty much what it comes down to. Bad decisions on both sides created this problem, and I'm not sure either side will benefit from the outcome. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 12:56pm
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Somewhat in her defense, the child is 10 months old and she joined in 2007, so she actually became pregnant while on active duty. But this raises interesting questions as well. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Troopr
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 12:59pm
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First Impression: I think she should stay with the child, but I don't agree with her not serving if she enlisted. I don't agree with the criminal charges ether... I think she should maybe serve from behind a desk, in the states... or something.... but I don't think she should get out of serving her country... and I don't think criminal charges are necessary. Just my opinion...  ------------- <3's Paintball w/ TippMann Alpha Black Tactical Marker TippMann Project Salvo Marker After Market E-Trigger TippMann SSL-200 E-Hopper |
Posted By: Fuzzey5-0
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 1:01pm
Like what? Should stupid people reproduce? ------------- I shoot things with paint. |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 1:03pm
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She's an Army cook is the first line. It's not like she is in communications/infantry/anything that is a necessity. Not that cooks aren't needed to be deployed, but I am sure they could live without one. Also, OS you saying she should give up pay? She has been in the army for 2 years(since 2007) and the kid is only 10 months. Obviously she got pregnant after she was in. She didn't go in with a kid and is now making it an issue. ------------- Que pasa? 
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 1:09pm
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Actually single females by regulation and UCMJ can not get pregnant during a term of voluntary service (subject to a Chaptered Discharge and loss of pay and allowances), and males can also be charged if they father a child (creating a dependant) also during a term of voluntary service. The old Ask Your Commander for Permission still is on the books, that pertains to marriage as well.
The regulations and UCMJ on the issue are quite clear, and she should have consulted the JAG office on all these Change of Status issues long prior to any deployment orders. Yes, she should be charged, and chaptered out, if not it will set back womans rights issues in the military so many have upheld only to have this one individual turn it into a I told you so exercise for those who do not want singel parents in the military. Her behavior while in service has consequences, and as in the outside world, ignorance of the law is no excuse. She was well aware of what the single parent status is, and had to be counciled by the Chain OF Command on her new duties and resonsibilities upon child birth (as a singler parent). To the Army under regulations (which she had to be made aware of) it was her responsibility to have a valid Child Care Plan or ask for an immediate Chaptered Discharge upon the birth of the child. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 1:14pm
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So let's say the the pregnancy was accidental. I am going to assume it was. What should she do then? Should she have aborted it to stay in the army or should they just not deploy her? I don't see the need to discharge the woman. Her job in the army is something that can be done effectively in the US with the same result. Also, she had a child care plan. That plan is no longer an option. How do you know she didn't inform them? ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 1:15pm
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OS just brought up the poitn I wanted to comment on. I don't know how I feel about this particular issue, but what does this say about women being sent to frontlines, deployed, etc. What happens when a woman finds out she's pregnant a month or two into a deployment? I feel like there are so many side issues to this that it's a HUGE can of worms that no one is going to want to discuss publicly. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 1:21pm
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So in order to fullfill her contract and to avoid doing her job within her unit, all a single female soldier has to do is get pregnant. What does that do for the morale of the unit, and womens rtights within the military. Fair and equal treatment I believe was the mantra to allow single mothers to continue to serve. To give her an 'easy out' while other single parents are deployed is unfair to those who followed the regulation. The rule is the rule, she violated regulations, and to protect the rights of other female single parents she should NOT recieve special treatment. -------------
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 1:26pm
What is the actual rule involving the death of a parent? If an active soldiers spouse dies leaving a child with no alternative care, what are the soldiers options?
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 1:35pm
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 2:07pm
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I still fully support required IQ tests before you can reproduce. ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: Dunbar
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 2:21pm
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Agreed. She should've known that somewhere along the road she was going to be deployed and doesn't she have any friends who could take care of the kid? I mean really now, she probably has a friend or suvillian coworker who can take care of the kid. ------------- If it's not my problem I'm making it my problem |
Posted By: Ben Grimm
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 2:25pm
The military can and does have rules that would be illegal in the private sector - not just here. That's the joy of being the government.
But, on point - if OS' summary of the regs is accurate (which I have no reason to doubt), then I think that answers the question. My concern was whether the military had the appropriate planning and procedure in place, and it appears that it does. That being the case, I would tend to agree that UCMJ is the correct course. I presume a DD (or whatever) would be a logical result.
The only lingering question would be whether the Army actually follows its own rules. Having formal procedures is one thing - but if the officers on the ground go by a different set of rules, then we have to go by those rules instead. In this case, for instance - did her superiors know about the child? If so, they presumably also knew that she had not arranged for suitable childcare. If they still took no action, then the soldier could reasonably take that to mean that she had some kind of permission to stay the course.
But whatever. I suspect there is enough blame to go around in this case, and the big loser will be the kid. As usual.
------------- It's Clobberin' Time! |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 2:53pm
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Regulations are in place for the parent deployed to return to the states under hardship conditions if spouse dies stateside leaving minor children. The service member then must provide by regulation an appropiate Child Care Plan and will be returned to unit ASAP. If a Child Care Plan adequite to provide for the children can not be found, a Chapter Discharge (usually Honorable) is available.
Now does the Army follow its own rules, well there is a pattern of Reserve and Guard units in order to pad manpower reports to let issues like these fall through the cracks. Now if that is the case the unit Commander is as much to fault as the single parent, and as chargeable under UCMJ. That does not mitigate the service members responsibility to keep the command informed on personnel changes. Most responsible soldiers keep copies of any personnel actions (in my day a DA Form 4187) in order to prove that they the service member did his/her part in keeping the command advised of any personal issue changes (marriage/child birth, etc) Still the matter remains, in order to maintain the fair treatment of other single parents that follow regulations, this individual case should and must be charged under UCMJ, in order to maintain the equality demanded for by other single parents (females). The military is not designed to be a 'work' program for the less fortunate, nor a day care center. The regulations are clear, and exception by waiver is available before orders issued, deciding that you do not want to follow orders issued (deployment) and use child care as an 'out' under conditions such as these UCMJ is warrented. The soldier in question shhould have supplied a personnel form with change of status and the required child care plan, if she did not follow through and was aware of her deployment status and trusted to 'luck' not to be deployed, that is no excuse. It is great in todays job market to have a guarenteed job with benifits, but you must be able to perform that job as outlined by regulation. -------------
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 3:05pm
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I do find it odd however, that the original source of care, the grandmother, is able to watch over two elderly adults, one physically disabled adult, and 14 children in a daycare situation, but the addition of a 10 month old threw her over the edge.... Granted, having survived two 10month olds, I know it could be trying, but couldn't the daughter in the military have sent money to offset some of the income gained from the daycare money and the grandmother dropped a few kids in order to watch her own grandchild? Seems a bit convienent that suddenly she is incapable of handling it, and that her daughter may get to ride it out stateside. All the while having the Army pay for her pregnancy, maternity leave etc. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 3:43pm
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Question. She has been in the .Mil from 2007? It's now 2009. That's 24 months.
10 month old. 9 month pregnancy. 24-19 = not very many months actually useful to the military..... KBK |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 3:53pm
^^^This. OS hit the nail on the head covering family care plans. I would add that I had several commanders that went above and beyond by requiring me (as a non-custodial single parent) to have such a plan in case something happened while I was exercising my visitation rights. Deployments are not surprises; the woman had 10 months (after birth) to either develop a working plan or notify her superiors and request a hardship discharge. She chose to continue to draw pay, receive training and occupy a slot that could have been used by someone actually capable of performing the mission. I have zero sympathy and am with OS on the need for her to be charged. I will add that having dealt with a similar issue* as a supervisor, it can create serious unit morale issues as other troops begin to wonder if they need to follow the rules as well. This is exacerbated by the fact that in many cases screw-ups are quite public while punishment is significantly more private. *Single parent troop** that took her 6 weeks of maternity leave then refused to show up for work because she "hadn't had time to get a baby-sitter." She became a civilian in fairly short order.*** **Name withheld to protect the annoyingly stupid. ***After filing various complaints/charges**** against every single member of her unit chain of command because us expecting her to actually work for her pay was so unfair. ****In my case it was an Inspector General complaint that I was prejudice against unwed mothers. ------------- 
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:48pm
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: tippmannfreak
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 9:26pm
| i really don't even know why this hit the news. besides, if she doesn't go i'm sure they can find a male soldier more than capable of fulfilling her duties...(blatant ignorance but i couln't help it) |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 11:15pm
^^^  Actually, the investigating officer told me off the record that I was an old-school style <jerk>* but I was that way to everyone on an equal basis so her complaint was unfounded. (He also said that, given the nature of the section I was running at the time, any other management style would probably have been less than successful.) *Actual term not forum appropriate.
It hit the news because it is a chance for some bleeding-heart loser who has never dealt with the leadership issues her chain of command handles on a daily basis to bash the evil military. While they could find someone else to do her duties, how fair is it to expect someone else to do them. Most deployments are determined on a rotational basis and her inability to go means that someone else will have to be away from their family (possibly again and sooner than they should have been) because she is unable to make her commitments. Keep in mind that she chose to join the military; she wasn't drafted. She chose to abide by the UCMJ and applicable Army regulations. She chose to stay in after having a child.* Now she is learning that choices have consequences and can't handle it. General related info:
*Active duty AF mothers are (or at least used to be) offered the opportunity to resign from active duty after the birth of a child. **Those who became single parents while a member of the armed services were allowed to continue their careers as long as all family care requirements were met. -------------
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 2:25am
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TL;DR did the Army tell her to get back in the kitchen? ------------- 
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Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 3:28am
I agree with this. ------------- 
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Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 3:29am
I feel safe stating that I seriously doubt the Army decided - of its own accord - to allow single mothers to go active duty. -------------
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Posted By: AMZ
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 11:26am
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The article I read stated she did have a plan for child care during her deployment. Her mother was to watch her child and backed out at the last minute. It also stated that she reached out to other relatives and they could or would not take care of her child. If this is true then it seems to me you can't fault the soldier for missing her deployment. She needs to come up with a new plan as soon as possible so that she can deploy with her unit at a later date. If she is using this to get out of her deployment then I agree with the above posts and this should be handled under the UCMJ with some level of punishment for her actions. |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 2:34pm
How about, um, not making a family whilst you're a soldier??
I think this comes down to personal responsibility. As one poster already said, the military paid for her bills, her residence, and her medical care while she was pregnant, but now she opts to not do the job she signed on to do.
Do I feel compassion for the mother? Sure I do. But when you sign a contract and join the military, you assume the responsibility of 24-hour on call duty. You could ship out at any time, and she made the choice to have the baby during her employment with the military.
I always find these situations ironic. I got in a debate with a lady I work with over this very subject, as this exact same situation was presented with a female friend of hers. She said the military is unfair to its female recruits-I just kind of laughed. My response? Women that choose to serve in the military have twice the responsibility as a man because of the complications a pregnancy can present. Nobody tied her hand to join, and I'm assuming that nobody forced the act the created this child upon her.
It's not the military that's attempting to make her child suffer, it's her for bringing a child into the world while complicating her previous responsibilites.
That being said, of course the Army should deal with this situation in a manner to benefit the child. But she should certainly face consequences. ------------- 
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Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 5:36pm
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Ship her and the baby overseas, kid would probably be safer than in some American Cities anyway. ------------- 
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 6:20pm
Some of the FOBs have everything else... Might as well build a daycare. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 9:19pm
In the AF (and I'm assuming the other branches are the same) the family care plans required a primary and both long and short term alternates. There was also a requirement for making sure it was up to date and no issues (like the one this soldier ran into) had come up. So yes, you can fault her. -------------
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Posted By: ThatGuitarGuy
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 11:46pm
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Mack, my memory is sketchy, but I also seem to remember some rule about if you become a single parent while under a military contract you have like 30 days or so to sign rights to the child over to someone else, pretty much giving them custody. That way, if you do get deployed, the child is taken care of, and there's not a last minute scramble to find someone to watch the child while you're away. I'll have to look over my old contract again and see if that was in there, or if I'm just remembering them touching on that at MEPS. ------------- Skillet: I've never been terribly fond of the look of a vagina |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 12:27am
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I think the 30 days was to have a family care plan implemented, not give up custody. I know for single parents to join the used to have to give up custody, but I'm not sure if that still applies.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 10:06am
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You sign a power of attoney giving the custodial rights to the care plan giver for the duration of your deployment. All that does is give the care giver all parental rights such as medical care, or any legal decesions needed during the deployment. In the case of the parant (single) dieing in service while deployed the standard home state child services adoption/delegation of care for minor child laws come into effect. Custory of the minor child stays with servicemember during deployment, just a POA gives caregiver all legal rights for the duration of deployment. -------------
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