career paintball
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=183654
Printed Date: 14 November 2025 at 8:23pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: career paintball
Posted By: pathfinder82
Subject: career paintball
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 10:20pm
Hi recently me and my team have been making good progress and have won most of our local matches and i was wondering how can we make a career out of professional paintball?
------------- Who Dares Wins
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Replies:
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 10:23pm
You can't. Professional paintballers are so high above the local status, and are still dirt poor.
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Posted By: pathfinder82
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 10:25pm
but ive been seeing all the ones with sponsors making a living off of it
------------- Who Dares Wins
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 10:26pm
Ha! Hahaha! HAAAAHAAAAHAHAHAAAHAAA!!!
AAAAA-HAHAHAHA HAAAAAAAA!!!!
Sorry to be useless, but pretty much all players on teams either have separate jobs or work for the companies that sponsor the teams they're on. Do what you can to get on better teams, but your income will be meager, if anything at all. Your best bet would be to get a high-level degree that's useful to paintball companies and get into one of them. Play your cards right and they'll have you being a spokesperson or manning booths or doing product testing.
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Posted By: Ben Grimm
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 10:29pm
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Hi - I am a professional paintball player. Don't listen to Skirret and Tolga - they're just bitter because they are totally NOT agg.
It's pretty simple to go pro. Here's how you do it:
1. Get a team together.
2. Buy good markers.
3. Think of a cool name for your team - nobody will sponsor you if you don't have a cool name.
4. Make YouTube videos showing how awesome you are, with lots of live play footage.
5. Think of a celebration dance to diss the teams you crush.
6. Put the dance on YouTube too.
7. Friend all the big paintball companies on Myspace.
8. Email all the big companies links to your awesome YouTube videos, and offer to be their factory team for only $5,000 per tournament (you have to start small - the big money comes later).
9. Profit.
------------- It's Clobberin' Time!
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 10:30pm
If pros are making a living off paintball it is because they are working for the company who sponsors them.
The famous Ollie Lang is one of those. By no means is he paid to play paintball. He works for Dye and that is why they pay him. He may do clinics, play tournaments, make promotional videos.
Play paintball for fun. Expect to spend a fortune and never get any of it back.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: RoboCop
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 10:58pm
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Paintball is not a franchise. It's not exactly becoming any bigger in this economy either. Don't expect to actually get paid to play anytime soon. The professionals have day jobs and do not live life in luxury. They just get the nice new gear for free.
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Posted By: slackerr26
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 11:04pm
even winning the bigger tournaments nets you only a small profit if any
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 11:07pm
Posted By: FROG MAN
Date Posted: 17 November 2009 at 11:18pm
dont let these guys discourage you, you are probably young so this sounds devastating to you, but remember when something becomes your job it loses its fun. So embrace the fact that you are unable to paintball as your career and enjoy it as a sport as long as you can.
------------- <1 meg sig = bad>
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Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 1:38am
Not to subject you to the same douchebaggery as the people above me, I'll tell you what you need to hear:
Paintball won't make you well-off unless you are the very best in the game AND you put your face out there so people recognize you as such. There are people who play x-ball as well as, or better than, Ollie Lang, but he is the highest-profile person on the circuit because he has put himself out there. Of course, putting yourself out there won't help if you aren't one of the best individuals playing the game.
Even if you make it pro, chances are you won't be making a good living. You will likely be living with your teammates, working for a paintball company, and WORKING to get better at paintball. It won't be a hobby you do to unwind, it will be your job. The guys on Dynasty don't play rec-ball in their spare time, they golf and do other things to get away from work. Paintball is MUCH different on the national level, even when you are playing the lower divisions. It's not about fun when you are playing, it's about winning (and hurting the other team [which is actually pretty fun]).
Also, it will be a LONG time before you and your friends go pro together. The fastest that a D3 team has moved from D3 to pro was four years, and that was because they skipped a division after picking up a few local all-stars. vicious will have spent 5 seasons together before playing pro next season, and the rate at which they improved is phenomenal.
Add to that it is going to cost you a bunch of money, even with heavy sponsorship, to play enough to get better as quick as you need. And you won't be able to get a good job that brings in enough money to support your playing paintball AND other things because you will be traveling for almost a week five separate times a year.
But if that's what you want to work for, don't let anything (especially a bunch of paintball-scrubs on the Tippmann forum) stop you from working toward your goal. Doing well on the local level is the right first step. Get those gears turning, put in the work, and do what you want.
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 7:39am
You have my full support. All I ask in return is 5% of the prize for each event you win.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 8:05am
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Deja vu...
When I was a kid, everyone told me that I could never turn pro in BMX. They said there was no money in extreme sports, and all the guys had to get real jobs to make ends meet. My teachers said I was wasting my time on my bmx bike...
I didn't quit and kept trying, and one day I turned Pro and got a cool job teaching BMX to other kids at Woodward camp. I made lots of money from the "dying" sport, so much so that I had three cars by the time I was 18. While at Woodward I met lots of other guys who were also at the ceiling of the sport (other pro riders)(both bmx and skate) at the time, everyone said we couldn't make money from the sport as it was dying (1991).
I looked around and had many discussions with these guys about what it would take to turn the corner. We discussed making the sport into a rider owned sport, as that way others weren't profiting on our labor. We also realized that name recognition was the only way to do this, as once you get name recognition, standings no longer matter.
I ended up focusing on other things, but the guys I had these discussions with didn't, and today they are household names.
Tony Hawk
Mat Hoffmann
These two in my opinion really get it. They started the X-games, and the boom boom huck jam. I knew them before they were famous, and luckily I got to be a cog in the wheel of their success. I am very proud of what they have accomplished, and if they had listened to all the guys that told them it could never be done... Well, they wouldn't be household names today, and worth millions...
Other Pros that were in these discussions, Danny Way (jumped the great wall of China) skate pro, great at personal brand identity.
And my good friend Jon Byers, who started Eastern bikes, one of the largest BMX bike distributors in the world. All from an idea back when we were kids.
So don't listen to the haters, if you are willing to work harder then the next guy, and sacrifice your time, stay away from drugs, and stay focused...
I believe anyone with the skills can make something great. And most skills are achieved by hard work. Not luck.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: ctchofday
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 9:46am
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Deja vu...
When I was a kid, everyone told me that I could never turn pro in BMX. They said there was no money in extreme sports, and all the guys had to get real jobs to make ends meet. My teachers said I was wasting my time on my bmx bike...
I didn't quit and kept trying, and one day I turned Pro and got a cool job teaching BMX to other kids at Woodward camp. I made lots of money from the "dying" sport, so much so that I had three cars by the time I was 18. While at Woodward I met lots of other guys who were also at the ceiling of the sport (other pro riders)(both bmx and skate) at the time, everyone said we couldn't make money from the sport as it was dying (1991).
I looked around and had many discussions with these guys about what it would take to turn the corner. We discussed making the sport into a rider owned sport, as that way others weren't profiting on our labor. We also realized that name recognition was the only way to do this, as once you get name recognition, standings no longer matter.
I ended up focusing on other things, but the guys I had these discussions with didn't, and today they are household names.
Tony Hawk
Mat Hoffmann
These two in my opinion really get it. They started the X-games, and the boom boom huck jam. I knew them before they were famous, and luckily I got to be a cog in the wheel of their success. I am very proud of what they have accomplished, and if they had listened to all the guys that told them it could never be done... Well, they wouldn't be household names today, and worth millions...
Other Pros that were in these discussions, Danny Way (jumped the great wall of China) skate pro, great at personal brand identity.
And my good friend Jon Byers, who started Eastern bikes, one of the largest BMX bike distributors in the world. All from an idea back when we were kids.
So don't listen to the haters, if you are willing to work harder then the next guy, and sacrifice your time, stay away from drugs, and stay focused...
I believe anyone with the skills can make something great. And most skills are achieved by hard work. Not luck. |
what part of there is no professional paintball (as in can never make a living from it) did you not understand?
------------- Xbl:PhantomReign97
'99 Snpr II, ½d Karni, E-Orracle, 2k4 Spstk, 2k5 Prstk, PMR SE, A5, 98
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 10:16am
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I know for a fact that with the set up that is in place just now you cannot make a living from playing paintball alone. Paintball is about as big as it's going to get so I don't see that changing any time soon.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 10:20am
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Oh, just the part that you know the future...
Lots of people told me and my friends that you can't make a living from xtreme sports. (back when they weren't called xtreme.
Today it is a common word.
BMX/Skate have some of the best and highest paid athletes in the world now. Why can't paintball be similar?
But, I guess you know better.
I am glad that my friend Mat never listened to people like you...
Here is a little video of him.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/9692/firsthand-mat-hoffman - http://www.hulu.com/watch/9692/firsthand-mat-hoffman
Lots of guys told him he could never make money with freestyle.
Part of the allure of xtreme sports is that it is outside conventional wisdom. Paintball handled correctly could become huge.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 11:22am
Yeah, no chance paintball's going truly pro.
In case you hadn't noticed, "pro" paintball been around as long as BMX.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 1:01pm
Gatyr, why must you give the kid false hope?
He didn't ask how to be pro, he asked how to make it a career.
FE, paintball will NEVER EVER EVER be as big as BMX. There isn't the excitement in it for non players to go commercial. Take people like me for instance, I don't ride BMX but I love watching it. I love playing the Tony Hawk and Mat Hoffman video games because they're fun.
Tell me a kid who doesn't play paintball is going to want to play an NPPL game? You can do the same thing with any other FPS.
Also with it on TV. 99% of nonplayers will have no idea what is going. That 1% is family members of players who have been around enough to understand.
Not to mention the actual cost of playing paintball(before any pay to play is even thought of). Giving a team of 8-10 guys guns, gear, and paint for free every single weekend is ALOT of money. What do skaters and bikers need? A bike and some shoes and a helmet. They can then go skate the streets to practice.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 1:08pm
jmac3 wrote:
I love playing the Tony Hawk and Mat Hoffman video games because they're fun.
Tell me a kid who doesn't play paintball is going to want to play an NPPL game? You can do the same thing with any other FPS.
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Additional point related to the above: Most paintball video games suck.
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Posted By: stick_boy_2002
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 1:24pm
Mack wrote:
jmac3 wrote:
I love playing the Tony Hawk and Mat Hoffman video games because they're fun.Tell me a kid who doesn't play paintball is going to want to play an NPPL game? You can do the same thing with any other FPS.
| Additional point related to the above: Most paintball video games suck. |
ill second that.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 1:53pm
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Ahh, you guys are thinking inside the box... Normal for most I realize, but you have to look at the big picture.
I'm 37. I put away my bmx shoes a long time ago (when I was around 22) and "grew up". Everyone said then that the only young guys would ride bmx. And yet, some of the most famous are guys I grew up riding with, I understand why, as it takes so long to get to that level, and bmx is a sport that is all about muscle control and balance, which can be learned over time. (I can still jump on my bike and do super hard stuff, that most could never do, not because I still practice, but because of the practice and muscle memory my body has carried).
But, my point is this, BMX is targeted to youth, typical age of a bmx rider is around 12 most are age 7-16...
Now, look at paintball... Do you need to be able to bunnyhop 4 feet in the air to play?... A skill that takes years to develop...
Nope, anyone can pick up a paintball gun, and for not a lot of money you can get on the field.
Personally, I don't see the "current" form ever becoming like the xgames. But, I do see a future that has giant "fieldball" type scenario matches, where the best players from around the world come to compete for the gold medal in paintball... That could happen, and since paintball isn't limited to just kids... (The average age at my events is 40!) This appeals to a much larger demographic.
Which equals more people to draw from, that will be buying gear that pays the "pro's" income...
We shall see, it would take some guys with the ability to market it. And the time, but I could see it happening.
Remember, everyone said BMX was dead in the 90's....
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 1:57pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Nope, anyone can pick up a paintball gun, and for not a lot of money you can get on the field.
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This is why you are wrong.
With that statement alone you have obviously never played tournament paintball.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 2:06pm
jmac3 wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Nope, anyone can pick up a paintball gun, and for not a lot of money you can get on the field.
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This is why you are wrong.
With that statement alone you have obviously never played tournament paintball.
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And that is why you can't understand how it could become something...
You only see "tournament" paintball as the way to progress...
Guess what, tournament paintball is BORING to watch. Wow, look at how they broke and ran behind a bunker while shooting 2,000 paintballs in three seconds.
Whoop dee dooo!...
Color America bored.
That is why paintball hasn't hit it big yet.
I play with a tippmann marker, (a-5) it does what I want it to do, semi auto no fancy trigger...
And when I play with my friends in the woods, we have a blast. (as much fun as I used to have at contests, where I had to spend years getting the skill level to be that good)...
See?
Fun is fun.
If "paintballers" only consider "tournament" as the future... Then you guys are probably right. It would never pick up. I have tried to watch paintball that is shown on tv. It is so boring, I'd rather watch msnbc... (yeah, that bad).
But, woodsball, I enjoy watching that, as it is different, and you can feel the adrenalin even watching it.
I've been playing for like three years now. And I started videoing my stuff this year... I see so many ways that with the right set up (from a production viewpoint) paintball could be very cool to film. Especially if you had cameras on each player, as well as up in the tree's picking up the action. Plus tons of field stuff like mines, tanks, and more...
Very cool, and a perfect TV fit.
But, running from the start to hide behind pillows of air....
lame.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 2:09pm
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Here is some footage from my birthday bash this year... Way too much fun!
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: RoboCop
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 2:12pm
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The cost of one tournament could easily pay for a BMX bike. Paintball is way too expensive. Professional athletes in BMX and skating are so wealthy because they do so much promotion. They do tv ads, go to competitions and tours and get their sponsorship names out. Paintball has not become a consistent television sport and I doubt it ever will be. It's not something you can watch every weekend on ESPN so therefore players can't really get paid to get the name out there except for the small group of people that actually play and care.
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 2:16pm
Woodsball the perfect TV fit? Lol.
Woodsball is fun. I like playing it. I also like playing tournaments.
If paintball is ever going to be big it HAS to be out of the woods. You can't watch a woods game. It is harder to understand what is going on there than it is on a speedball field. Not to mention the size of the fields.
The difference between woods and speedball? Wow look he broke and ran behind that tree shooting 12 balls a second, WHOOP DE DOO!
Paintball is not made to be more of a mainstream sport than it is, nor will it ever be.
Have you ever tried to watch a woodsball tournament on TV? God damn that is boring as hell.
What is happening in woodsball game that makes it more exciting to watch than an xball match? And I use Xball because 7man is stupid and slow.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: slackerr26
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 2:18pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
jmac3 wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Nope, anyone can pick up a paintball gun, and for not a lot of money you can get on the field.
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This is why you are wrong.
With that statement alone you have obviously never played tournament paintball.
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And that is why you can't understand how it could become something...
You only see "tournament" paintball as the way to progress...
I highly doubt that you can succeed in a woodsball career, especially being as no company would sponsor you
Guess what, tournament paintball is BORING to watch. Wow, look at how they broke and ran behind a bunker while shooting 2,000 paintballs in three seconds.
it is actually very entertaining to watch the strategy of a team unfold, and to see amazing comebacks that would most likely not happen in a woodsball secnarion
I play with a tippmann marker, (a-5) it does what I want it to do, semi auto no fancy trigger...
and you are sponsored by...?
And when I play with my friends in the woods, we have a blast. (as much fun as I used to have at contests, where I had to spend years getting the skill level to be that good)...
you cant make a career having a blast in the woods with your friends
If "paintballers" only consider "tournament" as the future... Then you guys are probably right. It would never pick up. I have tried to watch paintball that is shown on tv. It is so boring, I'd rather watch msnbc... (yeah, that bad).
tournament paintball is what will be happening in the future. it is extremely hard to film all aspects of a woodsball game and then market if for TV. on a speedball course, all you need is a few overhead cameras on cable runners
Very cool, and a perfect TV fit.
i doubt it would ever make it to national tv. and if it did, it wouldnt last very long
But, running from the start to hide behind pillows of air....
running to hide behind trees. whoo hoo fun!
and for the love of god, please stop posting that video, nobody watches it on here
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 2:20pm
Is there supposed to be something entertaining in that woodsball video? If you'd like I can post a video too.
By me finding your video boring, and you finding my video boring PROVES my point. Paintball is boring to watch. If you play it you have more of a chance of being entertained by it. Not everyone is going to like it.
Here watch and say you're bored:
http://vimeo.com/7419603 - http://vimeo.com/7419603
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 2:40pm
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Hard to make a comparison, between a professionaly filmed and edited video... Vs, my helmet cam...
You are still missing the point, Watching someone run and jump and slide is ok... But, if you change the perspective so that the viewer feels like THEY are the one in the game, that is what would make it cool.
Here is an idea. How about take 10 guys, and you get a bio on each. Then you pick the guy you think would capture the flag.
You watch the footage from their perspective, with cameras in the trees to show movement, and action.
I think that would be super cool to watch, and with the helmet cam footage you feel like you are there. Even when you aren't.
Like nascar when they go inside the car... Way better than just watching from the sidelines.
There are lots of ways to make it work... But, tournament is just looks the exact same every game to the casual viewer.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Tical3.0
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 2:45pm
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I don't know what is more boring. Watching those boring videos or reading about how boring paintball is to watch.
------------- I ♣ hippies.
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 2:58pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Hard to make a comparison, between a professionaly filmed and edited video... Vs, my helmet cam...
Lol I wished it looked good enough to actually fool someone into thinking it was professionally filmed and edited. Thanks for the compliment I guess? Seeing as how it is mine
You are still missing the point, Watching someone run and jump and slide is ok... But, if you change the perspective so that the viewer feels like THEY are the one in the game, that is what would make it cool.
That would get boring after the first time seeing it...
Here is an idea. How about take 10 guys, and you get a bio on each. Then you pick the guy you think would capture the flag.
So basically follow one guy around and not even see the rest of the game going on?
You watch the footage from their perspective, with cameras in the trees to show movement, and action.
This has been done in paintball videos See PUSH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZlJzZc9zCo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZlJzZc9zCo
I think that would be super cool to watch, and with the helmet cam footage you feel like you are there. Even when you aren't.
Yes you think. I think that would be boring. As do many other people.
Like nascar when they go inside the car... Way better than just watching from the sidelines.
Nascar has a huge following of people that don't race because they like to see it.
There are lots of ways to make it work... But, tournament is just looks the exact same every game to the casual viewer.
It looks the exact same in the woods also. People running through the woods shooting guns. Not to mention in the woods is much more wargame looking keeping it even further out of mainstream
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------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: RoboCop
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 3:04pm
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Even perspective video isn't that exciting. Usually you can't tell what the player is looking at and the movement is too much. Most of the time, the camera would be staring at the sidelines or the bunker right in front of the player.
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 3:05pm
What he said^
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 6:00pm
My reason for thinking paintball will never get as big as other sports: Lack of central focus point. Everyone is shooting at everyone. You're not following a ball around or a guy on a bike. Everything is happening all at once.
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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 6:28pm
Also, there isn't anything impressively physical about paintball. You're never going to see a slam dunk that breaks the backboard a la Shaq, and for that matter, runthroughs and such get boring around the third time you see them.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 7:44pm
mbro wrote:
My reason for thinking paintball will never get as big as other sports: Lack of central focus point. Everyone is shooting at everyone. You're not following a ball around or a guy on a bike. Everything is happening all at once. |
^^^This.
While woodsball could have a focal point (the flag) I have seen numerous games where all the action happens away from the flag and it is picked up as an afterthought by the survivors once all of their opponents have been eliminated.
Helmet/strategically placed cams might catch enough action to make the game interesting to watch, but without heavy editing it couldn't be presented as a coherent set of events. Once the editing is done, the game is no longer "live" which can relate to loss of interest in watching anything other than highlights.
BMX has a focal point where the action is automatically located (the rider currently competing) paintball doesn't. It is just the nature of the sport. However, since we are having this discussion, I am curious if anyone has ideas for format changes that might make paintball (woods or speed) more TV friendly.
My thoughts: (related to woods/scenario)
- Smaller teams
- Specific scenario based
- Gun, as opposed to helmet, cams
- Urban setting (possibly a single street with one-level "roofless" buildings to aid in filming--a large warehouse where overhead walks for cameramen would be good)
- Bright paint with distinctive colors for each team
- Larger caliber paint for bigger splats
- Hard vests/no padding to ensure breaks
Even so, I can't see the necessary expenses required for an enjoyable production being recouped.
(Hmmm . . . what about Laser Tag type fields?)
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 7:59pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Hard to make a comparison, between a professionaly filmed and edited video... Vs, my helmet cam...
You are still missing the point, Watching someone run and jump and slide is ok... But, if you change the perspective so that the viewer feels like THEY are the one in the game, that is what would make it cool.
Here is an idea. How about take 10 guys, and you get a bio on each. Then you pick the guy you think would capture the flag.
You watch the footage from their perspective, with cameras in the trees to show movement, and action.
I think that would be super cool to watch, and with the helmet cam footage you feel like you are there. Even when you aren't.
Like nascar when they go inside the car... Way better than just watching from the sidelines.
There are lots of ways to make it work... But, tournament is just looks the exact same every game to the casual viewer.
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Nice theory. Apparently you haven't seen the movie 'DOOM' though. First person isn't a very good entertainment medium.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 18 November 2009 at 10:23pm
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Anyone else depressed by this thread?
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 12:42am
No.
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Posted By: God
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:16am
brihard wrote:
Nice theory. Apparently you haven't seen the movie 'DOOM' though. First person isn't a very good entertainment medium. |
I disagree with you. I sat thru that movie and the only 30 seconds of that film I enjoyed was when the camera when into a FPS perspective, since that is was how I experienced the game.
The Tour' De France has a billion riders for reporters to focus on and I feel the live feed people do a decent job picking where and when to focus their cameras.
While I do not normally agree with most of FE's post and opinions, I dont think his direction of thinking is not too offbase.
If there is something someone really wants enough and are willing to put in the work to make it happen, in most cases it can happen. Just because there is not the set up for a high paying sports position in paint ball, doesnt mean that will be the case in 5, ten, fifteen years. There are plenty of pro skaters that I had the pleasure to meet and skate with (when they passed through my hometown area at demos, competitions, and local skateshops) in the late 80s and early 90s that were (and some still are) household names when skating was a huge fad a few years back.
Here is a trailer of a documentary recently filmed about my hometown area.
I recognize most, if not all the skating locations from the film. I was never anywhere near the skill of the skaters that are showcased in that film, that turned pro and eventual worldwide names. Back in the 80s and until the late 90's, skating was a sport nobody thought would go anywhere and it eventually did.
Just because the opportunities arent here now, dont give up and practice as much as you can until the opportunity is there. And your never going to get somewhere if you dont try.
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 5:20am
Tour De France also takes 23 days. A decent speedball game is over in under 23 minutes......
I honestly don't know about it being televised. I've seen some and it is generally "ok" but nothing I'd really watch religeously.
With other sports, like said before, there is one thing to watch. It's generally something that you have to show a lot of dazzling skill to keep or to get to.
Paintball is just too fragmented. Even if you play center flag or something, and there is always only one thing to watch, it is still fragmented.
The interaction is remote. Not many other games allow people 100 yards away to tag out their opponents. All the other sports require you to be right there, literally where the action is, to be able to do something.
While there are things like long passes in NFL, you can still follow the action (the ball). In Paintball you could be watching the flag, whlie the backers are hosing their angles and they get 2 eliminations, without you actually seeing it.
KBK
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 9:03am
Again, paintball has been around as long as BMX, although probably not quite as long as skateboarding.
The difference between both of those and paintball is that one weekend of paintball costs as much as a skateboard or a BMX bike, and far more kids got into both than will ever pay for paintball.
*EDIT* Perhaps I should point out that I have some experience in this area -- I compete in a sport that is about three centuries old give or take a few decades, yet has no truly professional athletes. Many of the same reasons apply: it's expensive, and there's not much focused action (with a minimum race length of a mile and a quarter).
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 10:31am
jmac3 wrote:
What is happening in woodsball game that makes it more exciting to watch than an xball match? And I use Xball because 7man is stupid and slow.
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Hey now!
------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
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Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 11:33am
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 12:26pm
Mack wrote:
mbro wrote:
My reason for thinking paintball will never get as big as other sports: Lack of central focus point. Everyone is shooting at everyone. You're not following a ball around or a guy on a bike. Everything is happening all at once. |
^^^This.
While woodsball could have a focal point (the flag) I have seen numerous games where all the action happens away from the flag and it is picked up as an afterthought by the survivors once all of their opponents have been eliminated.
Helmet/strategically placed cams might catch enough action to make the game interesting to watch, but without heavy editing it couldn't be presented as a coherent set of events. Once the editing is done, the game is no longer "live" which can relate to loss of interest in watching anything other than highlights.
BMX has a focal point where the action is automatically located (the rider currently competing) paintball doesn't. It is just the nature of the sport. However, since we are having this discussion, I am curious if anyone has ideas for format changes that might make paintball (woods or speed) more TV friendly.
My thoughts: (related to woods/scenario)
- Smaller teams
- Specific scenario based
- Gun, as opposed to helmet, cams
- Urban setting (possibly a single street with one-level "roofless" buildings to aid in filming--a large warehouse where overhead walks for cameramen would be good)
- Bright paint with distinctive colors for each team
- Larger caliber paint for bigger splats
- Hard vests/no padding to ensure breaks
Even so, I can't see the necessary expenses required for an enjoyable production being recouped.
(Hmmm . . . what about Laser Tag type fields?)
|
I don't think it would work live...
But, why would it need to be live?
I'm thinking more of a survivor type thing. There was a movie I saw a while ago where people would get dropped off on an island and they had cameras all over it to capture the footage, and the guys went out and killed each other (they were all killers from death row). The public would watch and it made me think, if you applied that same video work to paintball it could be an amazing show.
I don't think limiting it to just one camera per player makes sense.
If you are going to edit it anyway... Go multicamera.
I play with two cameras currently, just for this reason. I have a helmet cam, and also a gun cam. My gun camera doesn't have zoom currently, but I would like to add that to it, so that I can have it zoomed in on the targets, while the helmet cam gets the regular footage. It takes thinking about it to get decent footage, but I've only been doing it a year, and I think I've gotten some decent stuff. One day I will edit together some of my footage into a good video... I just haven't had time yet.
but, back to my point, I think if you did a show, and the first half of the show was bio's on the guys playing, then did the actual event, with the action only edited together, a woodsball/scenario could really work well on tv.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 12:33pm
ParielIsBack wrote:
The difference between both of those and paintball is that one weekend of paintball costs as much as a skateboard or a BMX bike, and far more kids got into both than will ever pay for paintball.
|
How much do you think a good bmx bike costs?
If you are comparing the price of a skateboard to a high end bmx... You have the wrong idea.
My cranks on my last bmx cost over $400... Plus bearings $100 plus pedals $85 plus chainring $65
Thats over $650 for just the crankset... Add a ti chain... ti frame...
You could easily spend $3,000+ on a good ti freestyle bike.
Shoot, I had over $2,500 just in my paintjob on my last bike...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Troopr
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 12:41pm
FROG MAN wrote:
...but remember when something becomes your job it loses its fun. So embrace the fact that you are unable to paintball as your career and enjoy it as a sport as long as you can.
| /agree a very good point...
------------- <3's Paintball w/
TippMann Alpha Black Tactical Marker
TippMann Project Salvo Marker
After Market E-Trigger
TippMann SSL-200 E-Hopper
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Posted By: RoboCop
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 12:50pm
FE- $2500 on paint, on a bike? You sir are dumb for spending that much money on just a paint job.
A starter set on a bike is plenty cheap enough. Start modding it and it's going to be about the same price as a high end paintball marker. Buying new parts, boards, bolts, trigger frames. It's all relativistic. But playing paintball is still more expensive as you have to keep dishing out money everytime you go play.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:05pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
ParielIsBack wrote:
The difference between both of those and paintball is that one weekend of paintball costs as much as a skateboard or a BMX bike, and far more kids got into both than will ever pay for paintball.
|
How much do you think a good bmx bike costs?
If you are comparing the price of a skateboard to a high end bmx... You have the wrong idea.
My cranks on my last bmx cost over $400... Plus bearings $100 plus pedals $85 plus chainring $65
Thats over $650 for just the crankset... Add a ti chain... ti frame...
You could easily spend $3,000+ on a good ti freestyle bike.
Shoot, I had over $2,500 just in my paintjob on my last bike... |
But the 12-year old BMX rider or skateboarder spends $200 to ride for a year, or more.
Also, I've never heard of a $2500 bike paintjob before right now, even from pro-cyclists. What did they paint it with, gold?
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: God
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:15pm
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A Walmart board can cost 20 bucks but a custom board, (wheels, trucks, bearings, grip tape) is going to cost in the 100's. Depending on how much you skate and how hard, a skater can easily go through a few boards a week. Some pros can go through boards in a day. Then there are shoes, hospital bills, surgery, tickets, bail. It can add up just as easily.
All sports needs to do to make tons of money is grab the attention of the globe and force it down their throats. If paintball were to do the same, there would be just a much money as in the other professional sports. The money doesn't come from televised media events, at least not in the short term, it is the mass recognition and sales of the sport's products and popularity of the sports top players.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:27pm
ParielIsBack wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
ParielIsBack wrote:
The difference between both of those and paintball is that one weekend of paintball costs as much as a skateboard or a BMX bike, and far more kids got into both than will ever pay for paintball.
|
How much do you think a good bmx bike costs?
If you are comparing the price of a skateboard to a high end bmx... You have the wrong idea.
My cranks on my last bmx cost over $400... Plus bearings $100 plus pedals $85 plus chainring $65
Thats over $650 for just the crankset... Add a ti chain... ti frame...
You could easily spend $3,000+ on a good ti freestyle bike.
Shoot, I had over $2,500 just in my paintjob on my last bike... |
But the 12-year old BMX rider or skateboarder spends $200 to ride for a year, or more.
Also, I've never heard of a $2500 bike paintjob before right now, even from pro-cyclists. What did they paint it with, gold?
|
Actually, yes. Gold, silver, and bronze leaf work, but the cost was in the artist who applied all the custom work to it.
It turned out awesome, and is by far the coolest bmx bike ever (in my opinion).
Is spending a fortune rebuilding a car, that will only be worth so much when you are finished... no matter what you spend dumb?...
Its all relative. I wanted to do it, so I did.
Lemme pull some pics.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:28pm
I found both videos to be substantially boring after a minute or so. I also find it boring to watch; Nascar, golf, bowling, most olympic events, hunting, fishing, figure skating, baseball, curling, grass growing, cycling, running, and even a lot of real sports on TV as well. I would have to agree that the mass appeal of paintball just isn't there from a spectators perspective. Heavy editing might make it more interesting for people that enjoy the game, but I just don't see a big draw for non-enthusiasts. I can watch snowboarding, bmx and some other Xgames type events, but even those can become redundant after awhile. But as mentioned, there is a whole lot more exitement in watching Mat Hoffman catch 20+ feet of air off the top of a halfpipe than watching some guys playing paintball. And I would argue that a lot of people only find the BMX interesting in the hopes of seeing the rider bust his .... Much like people watching racing mainly to see if someone hits the wall at 180+. Look at even the difference between BMX racing and BMX freestyle. Racing get little if any airplay, while trick riding gets plenty of it. Even in Motocross, more emphasis has been put on the freestyle events than the actual racing. People want to be wowed, just won't happen in paintball in the foreseeable future.
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:29pm

------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:32pm
I do believe paintball has tried.
Hell it's pretty much been on TV since like 1996 with a woodsball tournament shown on ESPN. There was also an OLD tournament filmed at Disney for ESPN in an urban type setting.
They then had NPPL Super 7 on ESPN2 I believe. There was also the college national on one the Fox channels.
There was beyond the paint on one of the fox channels, and the PB2X tv show. Smart Parts had a professional only xball tournament at Mohegan Sun and also aired that on TV.
William Shatner promoted it for his game, and countless celebrities have played(Ken Griffey Jr. Ego anyone?)
Also, the NXL was the push for TV coverage. They had Dick Clark's company involved.
Are you going to tell me after all this you can think of a better way to make it a mainstream sport with truly paid pros?
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:33pm
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Whoops, wrong bike... That is my friend catfish's old bike.
Here it is.
I shot those pics and was the rider... (seven second timer on my camera)
Hold on, I'll upload some of just the bike
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:38pm

------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:39pm
FE, you should just show up to skate parks and do random tricks on your ridiculous bike while wearing a suit.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:42pm
FE, what is your opinion on a Mongoose? back in our day they were the IT thing to have.
------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!!
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:45pm
jmac3 wrote:
I do believe paintball has tried.
Hell it's pretty much been on TV since like 1996 with a woodsball tournament shown on ESPN. There was also an OLD tournament filmed at Disney for ESPN in an urban type setting.
They then had NPPL Super 7 on ESPN2 I believe. There was also the college national on one the Fox channels.
There was beyond the paint on one of the fox channels, and the PB2X tv show. Smart Parts had a professional only xball tournament at Mohegan Sun and also aired that on TV.
William Shatner promoted it for his game, and countless celebrities have played(Ken Griffey Jr. Ego anyone?)
Also, the NXL was the push for TV coverage. They had Dick Clark's company involved.
Are you going to tell me after all this you can think of a better way to make it a mainstream sport with truly paid pros?
|
Yes, I can think of much better ways... And I'm positive with enough money it could be successful fast.
But, since money is the trick... It will take time.
Do you think BMX just became successful because a rider got a corporate company to start "something big"?...
Trust me, there were many growing pains.
It took the guys that loved the sport to make it what it is today. Then when it started getting popular again (from these riders sinking everything they had into it) then corporate giants started getting involved as they couldn't ignore it anymore.
paintball could do the same thing, but waiting for someone else to do it is always the problem.
YOU have to do it yourself. If it doesn't work, try again. If that doesn't work, try again.
Trust me, I would never have invented a trick like this, if I quit the first time I tried it and fell...
lazy man hang 5 performed by one of my friends named Kip.
It took so many crashes until I could do it consistently that it isn't even funny.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:46pm
Webco, DG and Mongoose were all the shiznit when I was a kid. You can find Mongoose at Walmart nowadays.
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:48pm
jmac3 wrote:
FE, you should just show up to skate parks and do random tricks on your ridiculous bike while wearing a suit. |
Oh, I have... The kids around here would trip out when I rode into the bowl in my suit...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:49pm
oldpbnoob wrote:
Webco, DG and Mongoose were all the shiznit when I was a kid. You can find Mongoose at Walmart nowadays. |
I remember when you could only buy a Mongoose from a bike shop...or steal them from some other kid...
------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!!
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:51pm
Ceesman762 wrote:
oldpbnoob wrote:
Webco, DG and Mongoose were all the shiznit when I was a kid. You can find Mongoose at Walmart nowadays. |
I remember when you could only buy a Mongoose from a bike shop...or steal them from some other kid...
| You know what all the kids in my neighborhood used to get for Christmas? Your new bike !
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:52pm
Ceesman762 wrote:
FE, what is your opinion on a Mongoose? back in our day they were the IT thing to have.
|
Yeah, old ones are worth some serious jack. I sold my mongoose two four a few summers ago for over $1,000...
Course it was set up like the one from karate kid...
lemme see if I have a pic of that one.
Most bikes today are pretty decent, even ones at walmart... They are just heavy. But, I can bust out on pretty much any bike today, as they are all so much better than what I had as a kid. That is a whole different story, and a reason why riders started so many bmx bike companies, as we were tired of crashing because parts/frames kept breaking.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:53pm
Ha! I was one of those kids who "found" and "liberated" those new bikes.
------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!!
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:54pm
1981 Mongoose two four cruiser.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 2:05pm
RoboCop wrote:
FE- $2500 on paint, on a bike? You sir are dumb for spending that much money on just a paint job.
A starter set on a bike is plenty cheap enough. Start modding it and it's going to be about the same price as a high end paintball marker. Buying new parts, boards, bolts, trigger frames. It's all relativistic. But playing paintball is still more expensive as you have to keep dishing out money everytime you go play.
|
I have worn out a tire in one day riding flatland.
ONE day.
$25 minimum for a good high end tire. Wear out both... $50. Normal time for a set of tires is under a month if you are a pro rider. Plus you wear out shoes like crazy. Imagine wearing a row where you scuff the tire out of your right shoe in two weeks. And you can't get cheap shoes as they don't work as well...
Plus, a paintball gun isn't extra on a flight... Bike bag on a plane trip. Cha-ching...
Most bmx contests today are around the world. I am friends with some guys that spend probably $4,000-8,000 per month in travel costs...
click on Matt's travel link on his page for examples...
http://www.mattbmx.com/ - http://www.mattbmx.com/
or my buddy Terry
http://www.terryadamsbmx.com/pages/biography.html - http://www.terryadamsbmx.com/pages/biography.html
Serious riders spend a fortune on their bike between contests, as you break stuff and wear out tires/brakes often.
Course that is one of the advantages to being a pro... You get lots of this stuff free.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 2:25pm
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^^^^^ but you are talking about a miniscule group of riders that run into these costs. What, maybe 100 riders worldwide that are actually on a circuit? Vs. EVERY paintball player attaining to be a pro goes through hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of paint in a weekend of competitive play (as a team).
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 2:32pm
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Ah ha!
so every paintballer that wants to go pro spends hundreds if not thousands of dollars on paint in a weekend...
sounds like the smart paintballer, will come out with his OWN paint... That is how you make money from a sport like this. Then the guys that want to emulate you will go buy your paint. jersey, ect.
Build up your name recognition and boom, corporate sponsers will follow.
Trust me, with the right person, this could work even in paintball.
do you think tony hawk rides bmx?. Of course not, but there are tony hawk bikes at wal-mart, and he gets a cut of every one sold...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 2:42pm
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Also, today guys have a much easier time to get their name out there with the internet.
Plus everyone can make a video now... That was unheard of when I was riding, I was the first to start making video's and now there are guys who make their living just from making a few videos per year.
I see the possiblility of this method working as well. It would just take a guy with vision to put it together, and go for it.
I think if you let people invent, and do their own thing, eventually they will do something that sticks.
Or you could just not push for progression and let it just go the way it has so far...
For me, I enjoy trying to get good footage. Why? I don't know but I have fun blasting someone and getting it on video. I'm sure there are people out there that would want to watch it, and if I refine my shooting ability for enough time, I bet I could even get to the point where people would pay for it... Or it would get enough hits, that I could pick up a sponsor.
If that was important to me.
I'm sure its important to someone, and I bet they will make themselves successful if they go for it, and are willing to fail, until they succeed.
One thing I learned from bmx. Practice makes perfect.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: God
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 3:15pm
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With the popularity of reality shows these days, it dont see it as impossible for a sports tv channel picking up a reality series or documentary style show about a struggling paintball team trying to fulfill their dreams of making a living off of a hobby they enjoy. With the right editing and good footage, whiling throwing in some drama and setbacks, that concept isnt any better or worse than what is already being aired. Heck, it worked for the pro video gamer show.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 3:30pm
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Imagine a cool woodsball field with camera's all over it...
Then edit it into a fast moving show that is easy to follow. It could work for sure. Then you have guys play the field to "make it" into the final show that is televised. (after of course so you could edit it all together)
At the end of the year, the best players duke it out on the field for the actual show.
I totally see that as a viable tv show. The preliminary competitions would also be filmed, so you would get to know the guys that make it on the way up. ( put on the internet, to keep the cost down)
Put up prize money like bull riding, with different monetary goals for stuff accomplished...
Way cool idea, I think.
The whole concept could work online as well...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 4:32pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Ah ha!
so every paintballer that wants to go pro spends hundreds if not thousands of dollars on paint in a weekend...
sounds like the smart paintballer, will come out with his OWN paint... That is how you make money from a sport like this. Then the guys that want to emulate you will go buy your paint. jersey, ect.
With their own paint? Do you realize how much that costs...?
Jerseys? Some teams do have cool ass jerseys that people buy. That isn't going to help anything as it is always a few people that want this. Teams like Dynasty and Ironmen sell a lot of jerseys, but not nearly enough to get all their players paid. Dynasty always has custom Dynasty Banana paint(if they still do)
Build up your name recognition and boom, corporate sponsers will follow.
Once again, why would corporate sponsors go into a sport to sponsor when such a small amount of people would actually see the sponsorship? I think Intel is the only corporate sponsor to jump in and they sponsored Dynasty. Dynasty still can't pay their players just to play paintball.
Trust me, with the right person, this could work even in paintball.
do you think tony hawk rides bmx?. Of course not, but there are tony hawk bikes at wal-mart, and he gets a cut of every one sold...
There are Ollie Lang DM's, Dynasty Shockers, Hurricane Egos. Still does not offset costs enough to pay players.
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------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 4:34pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Imagine a cool woodsball field with camera's all over it...
Then edit it into a fast moving show that is easy to follow. It could work for sure. Then you have guys play the field to "make it" into the final show that is televised. (after of course so you could edit it all together)
At the end of the year, the best players duke it out on the field for the actual show.
I totally see that as a viable tv show. The preliminary competitions would also be filmed, so you would get to know the guys that make it on the way up. ( put on the internet, to keep the cost down)
Put up prize money like bull riding, with different monetary goals for stuff accomplished...
Way cool idea, I think.
The whole concept could work online as well... |
Where does this money just all of a sudden come from to be able to do this? To offer prizes?
Are woodsball players willing to put up the amount of cash it would take in entrance to fund a prize package and webcast of an event?
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 4:41pm
God wrote:
With the popularity of reality shows these days, it dont see it as impossible for a sports tv channel picking up a reality series or documentary style show about a struggling paintball team trying to fulfill their dreams of making a living off of a hobby they enjoy. With the right editing and good footage, whiling throwing in some drama and setbacks, that concept isnt any better or worse than what is already being aired. Heck, it worked for the pro video gamer show.
|
Video games are HUGE compared to paintball. You have single people playing Madden football for prizes that are comparable to(if not more) than professional team grand prizes in paintball.
Even paintballers have found documentaries boring. Go watch Unknown Soldiers Podcast. It was a pretty good and well edited free video of a struggling low level team. Many people liked it, many didn't. To put that out to the world would be hard. There isn't the same connection that would make you enjoy that. People wouldn't understand what is going on.
Also, watch this documentary: Heroes for a Day. A professional video that people are bored by for some reason even though it is about the sport they play.
EDIT: Super triple post. Also, I would like nothing more for paintball to explode and be huge and have paid pros and seeing it on TV. I am just realistic and hate the amount of times this argument comes up.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 5:33pm
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I think you guys are talking past each other here...
Clearly in today's setup, it is basically impossible for random player X to "go pro" and make a living off tournament prizes and random sponsorships.
But I am fully with FE on the potential for a variety of successful business models in paintball, and I think Tony Hawk is a great example. Sure, paintball is not the same as BMX/skating, and you cannot simply copy what Tony Hawk did, but there is a paintball variant of that out there someplace. The thing to remember is that BMX/skating wasn't always as high-profile and widely known as it is now - it used to be just kids in the parking lot messing around. And what made Tony Hawk a household name? Was is something about skating? NO - it was Tony Hawk that made Tony Hawk a household name (and his backers, of course). People wear Tony Hawk gear that have never been on a skateboard, people play Tony Hawk video games that have never left their basements.
Hurley clothing isn't popular because skating is so awesome - Hurley clothing MADE skating awesome so that their clothes would be popular.
And that is (I believe) what FE is headed for. Change the paradigm, think outside the box, use whatever cliche you like - but don't be trapped by what paintball IS. Instead, make paintball what you want it to be.
Another random example: Tapout clothing. Three random guys who don't (didn't) know how to fight saw an opportunity. In the process they not only built their own brand, but actually contributed to the rise of UFC/MMA in hte public eye.
Don't just ride the wave: MAKE a wave, and then ride it.
------------- [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/aag8s8.jpg">
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 6:10pm
Meh. I don't care too much about paintball's wave. What I see is their major issue: cost.
Regardless of whether FE goes through a pair of shoes and tires a week riding flatland, the driving economic influence in the sport is kids who can go out and get a cheap bike, some pads and a helmet go get hurt (generally on some ramps).
Paintball doesn't have the affordability to make it to the main stream, not to mention that in many places paintball guns face the same stigma as firearms (and I mean inside the US, although certainly Germany currently win this race).
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 6:19pm
ParielIsBack wrote:
Meh. I don't care too much about paintball's wave. What I see is their major issue: cost.
Regardless of whether FE goes through a pair of shoes and tires a week riding flatland, the driving economic influence in the sport is kids who can go out and get a cheap bike, some pads and a helmet go get hurt (generally on some ramps).
Paintball doesn't have the affordability to make it to the main stream, not to mention that in many places paintball guns face the same stigma as firearms (and I mean inside the US, although certainly Germany currently win this race).
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No. The driving economic influence is people who will buy magazines or videos, or who will watch the X-games on ESPN and allow BMX to sell advertising revenue for related or unrelated products.
It's a synergistic relationship. Bringing the sport more into public consciousness raises the potential financial gains, and increasing the financial gains leads to people going to the effort to bring it more into the public sphere. I think Ramb's post was right on.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 7:00pm
I seriously doubt that's the case -- magazines and videos are certainly not a major selling point for extreme sports. People bought up companies like Haro because they made a ton of money by selling bikes to teenagers and adolescents. I'm not saying BMX Magazine (or similar, real magazines) don't make money, but they don't make nearly as much as the people actually manufacturing bikes or gear.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 9:06pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I don't think it would work live...
But, why would it need to be live?
I can't stand to watch games (of any type) that I already know the outcome of. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way which would make any type of league action questionable as far as profit is concerned.
I'm thinking more of a survivor type thing. There was a movie I saw a while ago where people would get dropped off on an island and they had cameras all over it to capture the footage, and the guys went out and killed each other (they were all killers from death row). The public would watch and it made me think, if you applied that same video work to paintball it could be an amazing show.
That isn't a bad idea. That show with the hunters that Sci Fi had on a while back would have been much cooler with paintball markers. (Although they'd have to find locations without innocent bystanders--doesn't Detroit or some city have blocks of abandoned buildings downtown?)
I don't think limiting it to just one camera per player makes sense.
If you are going to edit it anyway... Go multicamera.
I play with two cameras currently, just for this reason. I have a helmet cam, and also a gun cam. My gun camera doesn't have zoom currently, but I would like to add that to it, so that I can have it zoomed in on the targets, while the helmet cam gets the regular footage. It takes thinking about it to get decent footage, but I've only been doing it a year, and I think I've gotten some decent stuff. One day I will edit together some of my footage into a good video... I just haven't had time yet.
This isn't a bad idea either, but keep in mind the contestants are going to be concentrating on winning/surviving, not "getting a good camera angle."
but, back to my point, I think if you did a show, and the first half of the show was bio's on the guys playing, then did the actual event, with the action only edited together, a woodsball/scenario could really work well on tv. |
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 11:09pm
Okay so I have came from one of the most successful scenario teams in Europe. We had sponsorship from a http://www.extreme.com/ - branch of an extreme sports channel .
This went nowhere nobody was interested. It can be done but this boy
isn't asking that. He wants to be a pro player, Not set up the new age
of profitable paintball.Telling him to stop dreaming is about the best
thing you can do.
Smart parts Europe has gone bust for gods sake.The game isn't gonna get any bigger for a while.
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Posted By: God
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 11:32pm
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But if he practices for the next ten years he may be good enough to keep people entertained and spending their money.
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 11:40pm
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 11:51pm
I don't care how good someone is at paint ball, I'm not going to sit there and watch them for long periods of time for free, let alone pay for it.
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President
RIP T&O Forum
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 19 November 2009 at 11:55pm
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 7:33am
Mack wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I don't think it would work live...
But, why would it need to be live?
I can't stand to watch games (of any type) that I already know the outcome of. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way which would make any type of league action questionable as far as profit is concerned.
I'm thinking more of a survivor type thing. There was a movie I saw a while ago where people would get dropped off on an island and they had cameras all over it to capture the footage, and the guys went out and killed each other (they were all killers from death row). The public would watch and it made me think, if you applied that same video work to paintball it could be an amazing show.
That isn't a bad idea. That show with the hunters that Sci Fi had on a while back would have been much cooler with paintball markers. (Although they'd have to find locations without innocent bystanders--doesn't Detroit or some city have blocks of abandoned buildings downtown?)
I don't think limiting it to just one camera per player makes sense.
If you are going to edit it anyway... Go multicamera.
I play with two cameras currently, just for this reason. I have a helmet cam, and also a gun cam. My gun camera doesn't have zoom currently, but I would like to add that to it, so that I can have it zoomed in on the targets, while the helmet cam gets the regular footage. It takes thinking about it to get decent footage, but I've only been doing it a year, and I think I've gotten some decent stuff. One day I will edit together some of my footage into a good video... I just haven't had time yet.
This isn't a bad idea either, but keep in mind the contestants are going to be concentrating on winning/surviving, not "getting a good camera angle."
but, back to my point, I think if you did a show, and the first half of the show was bio's on the guys playing, then did the actual event, with the action only edited together, a woodsball/scenario could really work well on tv. |
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Oh, the outcome would be kept secret. Just like survivor. That show does a great job of keeping the public from knowing who will win... (I did find out who the two finalists were one season though...)
I think it could work, but it would take someone grabbing the bull by the horns and figuring it out.
I'm sure getting players that are ethical, would be the hardest part, but they are out there. If it were me, I would set it up with a "cheating" ban, so that any player caught wiping would be elimintated from future competition, forever...
And also have them sign confidentiality until the episode airs.
I could see this developed online first, then moving to tv once the viewship got up high enough to warrant corporate sponsors.
Its funny to hear people say that how would you start it financially.
I'll give you examples since I was there and know how bmx got to the level it is now.
Mat, started out with his "BS" Yes it stands for that... contest series.
In other words, this was a contest series for the riders, by the riders.
The entry fees went into the pot. The winner took the pot. Venues were secured for little or no money, and after about 5 years of these style contests, people started noticing this interesting thing happening.
Then sponsors started (after almost 5 years of all this work by Mat, and a few of his friends).
Not some big corporate entity. Just a few guys with a dream. Young guys too, that didn't have extra cash, just an idea and the willingness to go after what they dreamed of making.
Later, espn got on board, and now you have the xgames, Mat got out of it when they eliminated flatland from the events, and it became more corporate... Also one of the reasons he quit riding in the comps for a few years. Lots of the best riders are fans of flatland, like Dave mirra who was a plywood hood in PA when he was a kid, and can do more flatland than most riders... And he is the most decorated xtreme athlete today.
Oh, and he moved to my hometown, as NC is now riders central for bmx, (pretty big shift since all the riders were west coast when I grew up) all because of our influence in the sport, and push to get the adults to accept us and our effort to build some of the first bikeparks in the country there, when no one else had even heard of them.
One of my good friends from NC just emailed me last night as he is in New Orleans doing a halftime show for the Hornets... Good thing he didn't listen to all the haters that said he couldn't make a living from flatland bmx...
He also does nascar events with this set up...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 10:40am
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Here is a pic from
one of his shows.
and some whoppers before hand.
and my boy Keith King, still ripping at 40.
Don't let people smash your dreams. Go for it, as they are the lazy ones sitting on the sidelines saying "it can't be done" while others like me and my friends actually DO IT... http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs048.snc3/13539_1272413931641_1268696901_30809627_8084459_n.jpg -
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 12:01pm
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Yes it is possible for this kid to follow his dreams and become professional and have a ton of money like Tony Hawk.
But, we all had dreams when we were young. Some come and pass, some you just give up on. The people you mentioned FE made it, thousands of others didnt.
I graduated high school last year, and i was friends with two kids, who throughout highschool wanted to go for skate/bmx. The skater kid has never had a job, saves his money and buys expensive cameras. He has no job, no license, and failed at applying to community college. Skateboarding got him real far.
The BMX kid had a job at a taco place, then began doing drugs along with all of the other kids. He eventually got kicked out of his house, and is now hanging around maryland doing stupid things with his blazer and doing cocaine(last I heard). BUT, he's got a nice BMX bike. Sucessful?
Thing is, FE you know some people who made it big. Its a great thing to strive for your goals but you cant always make it into the MLB or whatever.
I wanted to do custom fabricating when I was 13. I realized I would go nowhere with it, and decided to ditch the idea. It hurt because I gave up, but now Im enrolled in a four year college. My old BMX friends will probably be in jail/their momsbasement/dead/homeless.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 12:12pm
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Actually "millions" didn't.
Success is difficult to achieve. Most don't have the gumption to keep going and going and going...
The success I have gotten in my life wasn't achieved, it was earned, daily.
I didn't wake up one morning and say "Hey, I made it".
Everyday I wake up and say, "I love what I am doing", and that is the difference. When you love doing something, you will find ways to keep doing it, do it long enough and you will start looking at ways to make money from it.
Fast forward, and after many trials you will start to actually do something with it.
For all the millions who "didn't make it". There are thousands of guys that are thrilled with where they are.
Do I wish I had kept riding and used my connections to further my career in bmx. Nope, It became to much of a job for me, and I wasn't enjoying it anymore.
I got into stuff I enjoyed more, tv, film production, then moved into the family business, while allowing all the crazy ideas that kept running through my head to become small businesses.
Lots of guys told me I was crazy to print flame stickers. But, I wanted some for my stuff. And I started selling them...
Turns out lots of people wanted them. I've made over $10,000 selling them...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200408449541 - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200408449541
I decided to start a bindery business, as it is something I can do with my free time.
Last night, I was hard at work after work, while others were relaxing, I was making money with one of my side businesses...
Which everyone said I was crazy to start...
its all about your focus, and setting goals.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: God
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 12:20pm
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All professional sports have high attrition rates. If everyone can do it, then there wouldnt be a need for professionals. But for the few that are motivated enough, practice enough, and is a go getter, there is a much greater chance of it happening.
In FE's example, Matt Hoffman took 15 years to get where he wanted. Tony Hawk and his parent's support took decades to get him to the point where he is now. Johnny Knoxville, Bam Margaria, and all the "Jackass" crew all made it big after years of help from Big Brother Magazine. Until the past skating boom, a skater had to do many years of winning getting their pictures in thrasher, making their own videos, to get noticed. When the money was rolling in, all you had to do to get sponsored, go on tours, and turn pro, was to win a few tourneys. Now most of them are getting dropped and struggling to keep going. But that is business. There are many blue and white collar workers in the same position.
No one is say that if you practice every Saturday, that you can graduate from high school, get paid to do your hobby, and retire after a few years. But if you really want to do something, practice it, get good, get recognized, sell yourself, and hopefully profit.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 12:30pm
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Exactly... Well said god.
But, without a series of goals, you won't get anywhere. I remember talking to Tony about how instead of pushing a brand, aka sponsor, you have to push yourself, YOUR identity.
That is the key. If YOU are the thing people buy into, then it doesn't matter much what you sell. They are looking at you.
I still do this to this day, and when I go out to sell whatever, I am selling ME, not the product. They get my service in printing. Or when I'm cleaning fish tanks, Its ME they get, who will show up when promised every time, and bill according to the actual cost, not inflated. (made over $1,100 this month on that company)...
But, no one will do it for you. You have to do it yourself. Most people don't have the gumption to do it, as it isn't easy.
Guys called me FreeEnterprise since I was 15... I've always been selling stuff, and for me, its fun.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 12:33pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Don't let people smash your dreams. Go for it, as they are the lazy ones sitting on the sidelines saying "it can't be done" while others like me and my friends actually DO IT... |
Just to ask FE, but what have you done? You say you were pro in a sport that when you were pro didn't actually make you successful People your age were also pro in paintball back then but it didn't make them successful.
Cool you were around the BMX scene back in the day and had some sponsorships, got some free stuff. You were a good rider and probably still are. I am tempted at contacting some of your "friends" and ask them if they even know your name.
Also, BMX=/=paintball. It isn't anywhere near as exciting when not doing it yourself. Look at all these pictures. You have people 15 feet in the air, or a couple feet off the ground doing crazy things with a bike. People see this and recognize the skill. This makes it interesting. There is not a single thing in paintball that you could see and recognize the individual skill of the player. Well there are a couple things you can if you play paintball.
Can you see the individual skill in this video? I can 4 things, that non players will never notice.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 12:50pm
jmac3 wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
Don't let people smash your dreams. Go for it, as they are the lazy ones sitting on the sidelines saying "it can't be done" while others like me and my friends actually DO IT... |
Just to ask FE, but what have you done? You say you were pro in a sport that when you were pro didn't actually make you successful People your age were also pro in paintball back then but it didn't make them successful.
Cool you were around the BMX scene back in the day and had some sponsorships, got some free stuff. You were a good rider and probably still are. I am tempted at contacting some of your "friends" and ask them if they even know your name.
Also, BMX=/=paintball. It isn't anywhere near as exciting when not doing it yourself. Look at all these pictures. You have people 15 feet in the air, or a couple feet off the ground doing crazy things with a bike. People see this and recognize the skill. This makes it interesting. There is not a single thing in paintball that you could see and recognize the individual skill of the player. Well there are a couple things you can if you play paintball.
Can you see the individual skill in this video? I can 4 things, that non players will never notice.
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When I started riding BMX, I wanted to go pro. That was my goal, I was the top rated 18 and over expert in flatland in the NBL in 1990,
I purchased 1 bike in my entire biking career. ONE. All the rest were given to me by sponsors, or were replaced by the manufacturer for breaking. I was sponsored by tons of huge companies. Oakley, Vans, GT/Dyno, Schwinn, Hammer, Dia-Compe and more.
I claimed the title as the best in the world in the NBL in 1990 in my class, and moved to the pro class. 1991, I was the flatland instructor at Woodward bmx camp. I rode with and hung out with most of the top pro's of the day in bmx and skate at the time. We had many discussions about how to grow the sport. Tony and I talked a ton then.
Here is a pic I took during that summer, all of these guys are very famous in bmx. Kevin Jones, the second guy is the best flatlander of all time, ask anyone in flatland who the best ever is, and they will say him.
If you see him, ask him if he knows me... First he will laugh as I was crazy back in the day...
I was in tons of bmx videos back in the day, lots of newspapers, I did the first bmx show during a halftime of a basketball game in 1992.
After freestyle, I got into the movie and tv industry, I was a beta tester for Avid, and many of the controls on the current avid composer series are from my input. I also am a certified steadycam operator. I filmed ms america pagents, and early ultimate fighting, as well as tons of sporting events. I worked on the film Hudsucker proxy at Carlico studios, while my peersr were drinking at spring break.
I started buying and selling houses in 1994. I made offers on tons of houses and bought 5 that I remodeled and sold for profit during the next 10 years. In 2004 I took all that profit and my wife designed and I had built my dream home, using money I made along the way, plus the huge profits off my real estate transactions.
I've started multiple companies that I am in the process of growing, and I help run my families printing company.
With the internet exploding I've reconnected with many of my old bmx friends over the years, and it has made me realize that we did something that most people think can't be done. And the fact that so many of us were successful makes me wonder what made us different...
I think it is because we didn't do the "normal" things. We did what was fun. And learned to make money from that.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 12:56pm
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Why is basketball popular? nothing really spectacular about that.
What about baseball?
How about soccer?
Paintball is just as exciting, the only difference is, that no one has captured that excitement in a way that makes it fun to watch yet.
But, technology is changing.
Bmx would have blown up faster if the internet was around in the early 90's. Today, much of the interest is because you can see what is going on all and pick it up. Most of the best flatlanders today live outside of the US... The internet made that possible.
I see paintball the same way, with proper filming/editing, you could make some really cool stuff, that guys would love to watch, and when they do, they buy stuff...
what is the age range for paintball? I've had guys in their 70's play with my group. Shoot my father in law is one of the best that plays with us, and he is 59!
The demographics is so much bigger than bmx...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 1:17pm
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BMX=/= R/C cars either...
But, when I thought, hey, that tree looks like the kind I used to ride on my bike?... I wonder if I could do backflips off of it with my R/C car...
After a few tries...
(yeah, I knocked the bird feeder off and broke it, doh!)
And Traxxas published them...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 1:33pm
^^^^ Maybe you should go pro.
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 2:12pm
jmac3 wrote:
Just to ask FE, but what have you done? You say you were pro in a sport that when you were pro didn't actually make you successful ...
Cool you were around the BMX scene back in the day and had some sponsorships, got some free stuff. ...
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I'll answer that. He got to travel around riding bikes for money for a while. He got paid to do his hobby, if only for a few years.
How is that not awesome? Sure, he didn't end up as rich or famous as Tony Hawk, but you don't have to end up rich to be "successful."
I know a guy who played minor league ball for several years. Had two major league at bats, but didn't quite make it. Left pro ball and went to law school, and is now a lawyer.
How is that any different from what FE did? Both spent years learning a sport, became good enough to where they could make a living - but not good enough to get rich, and then moved on to "regular" jobs.
Sounds pretty cool to me. Sounds like a pretty good accomplishment to me. If every skater but Tony Hawk is a failure, then we are setting the bar at a meaninglessly high level.
------------- [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/aag8s8.jpg">
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 2:28pm
Rambino wrote:
jmac3 wrote:
Just to ask FE, but what have you done?
You say you were pro in a sport that when you were pro didn't actually
make you successful ...
Cool you were around the BMX scene back in the day and had some sponsorships, got some free stuff. ...
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I'll answer that. He got to travel around riding bikes for money
for a while. He got paid to do his hobby, if only for a few years.
How is that not awesome? Sure, he didn't end up as rich or famous
as Tony Hawk, but you don't have to end up rich to be "successful."
I know a guy who played minor league ball for several years. Had
two major league at bats, but didn't quite make it. Left pro ball and
went to law school, and is now a lawyer.
How is that any different from what FE did? Both spent years
learning a sport, became good enough to where they could make a living
- but not good enough to get rich, and then moved on to "regular" jobs.
Sounds pretty cool to me. Sounds like a pretty good
accomplishment to me. If every skater but Tony Hawk is a failure, then
we are setting the bar at a meaninglessly high level.
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I didn't say everyone but Tony Hawk is a failure. I also didn't say that what FE did isn't cool.
It's just that he says he followed his dreams and goals and became
successful doing something, where really he didn't. Yes he was high
ranked and did for maybe a little bit of money, but even being at that
level he had to go into the real world. He didn't make it a career like all these other names that he drops.
I played paintball tournaments for free this year, and next year I will have a gun for free. Am I successful in this sport?
Also, Basketball is popular because half the world plays it. It takes noticeable skill to do something because so many people know they can't do it.
Same with baseball. People can marvel at smashing a homerun, or making a diving catch, knowing that they couldn't do it. They probably tried when they were younger.
Same with football, and soccer.
Paintball on the other hand is people running around with guns. Where is the noticeable skill? Anyone watching will always say "oh anyone can shoot someone with a gun"
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: God
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 2:46pm
jmac3 wrote:
I played paintball tournaments for free this year, and next year I will have a gun for free. Am I successful in this sport? |
Yes, you are more successful than those that are not playing in tournaments for free and not getting a free gun.
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 3:03pm
SSOK wrote:
But, we all had dreams when we were young. Some come and pass, some you just give up on. |
I always dreamed of wasting hours of time (that could be better spent doing something else) on an internet forum and eventually earning recognition as a conservative-leaning, mildly-humorous smart-aleck. Sadly, I . . . hmmmm . . . hey wait a minute . . . I made it! My dream has come true and my life is complete. Yay me!
To get back to FE's idea about "Survivor-Paintball;" I think it would work better if the contestants were not "pro" players.
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