So, about those climate emails
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Topic: So, about those climate emails
Posted By: Frozen Balls
Subject: So, about those climate emails
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 3:09pm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091212/ap_on_sc/climate_e_mails - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091212/ap_on_sc/climate_e_mails
Whoops?
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Replies:
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 3:21pm
Lol.
And because I have a feeling Reb will comment saying I read this because it agreed with me, I didn't read it.
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 5:09pm
jmac3 wrote:
Lol.
And because I have a feeling Reb will comment saying I read this because it agreed with me, I didn't read it.
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So you posted strictly to be a smart ass?
....Not bad. I'm glad there's been a thorough investigation, that's for sure. One single line in that article leads me to believe that if this IS a dead issue, its because its been prematurely killed.
"It is not clear if any data was destroyed; two U.S. researchers denied it."
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 5:15pm
Good start, but I'd like to see a more academic review, including replication of the implicated studies by other parties.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 5:34pm
I am still waiting for the conservative outcry over the AP using too many fact checkers.
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 5:35pm
brihard wrote:
Good start, but I'd like to see a more academic review, including replication of the implicated studies by other parties. |
That will never happen because they want to brush this whole thing off.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 5:46pm
Eville wrote:
I am still waiting for the conservative outcry over the AP using too many fact checkers.
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Oh snap.
Actually they'll complain that only half as many were used as were used for the Palin book.
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 5:46pm
Rofl_Mao wrote:
brihard wrote:
Good start, but I'd like to see a more academic review, including replication of the implicated studies by other parties. |
That will never happen because they want to brush this whole thing off.
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Who is they?
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 5:53pm
agentwhale007 wrote:
Rofl_Mao wrote:
brihard wrote:
Good start, but I'd like to see a more academic review, including replication of the implicated studies by other parties. |
That will never happen because they want to brush this whole thing off.
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Who is they?
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What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?
------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 6:46pm
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"The AP is mentioned several times in the e-mails, usually in reference to a published story. One scientist says his remarks were reported with "a bit of journalistic license" and "I would have rephrased or re-expressed some of what was written if I had seen it before it was released." The archive also includes a request from an AP reporter, one of the writers of this story, for reaction to a study, a standard step for journalists seeking quotes for their stories."
complicit.
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 6:54pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
"The AP is mentioned several times in the e-mails, usually in reference to a published story. One scientist says his remarks were reported with "a bit of journalistic license" and "I would have rephrased or re-expressed some of what was written if I had seen it before it was released." The archive also includes a request from an AP reporter, one of the writers of this story, for reaction to a study, a standard step for journalists seeking quotes for their stories."
complicit. |
You're going to get slammed for that, I know it.
However, and I'm not just saying this because I don't like being 'proven' wrong, the whole article smacks of "Its all good because we say it is"
I say there's more room for investigation, although finding someone who can be fair enough to investigate and not let their own political bias/financial interests get in way might be tough to get a hold of.
My new opinion on the matter:
"So it wasn't as bad as it seemed, but I've still got the general feeling that something is missing."
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 6:55pm
agentwhale007 wrote:
Rofl_Mao wrote:
brihard wrote:
Good start, but I'd like to see a more academic review, including replication of the implicated studies by other parties. |
That will never happen because they want to brush this whole thing off.
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Who is they?
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The people that are supposed to provide the more academic review.
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 7:35pm
Reb Cpl wrote:
jmac3 wrote:
Lol.
And because I have a feeling Reb will comment saying I read this because it agreed with me, I didn't read it.
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So you posted strictly to be a smart ass?
....Not bad. I'm glad there's been a thorough investigation, that's for sure. One single line in that article leads me to believe that if this IS a dead issue, its because its been prematurely killed.
"It is not clear if any data was destroyed; two U.S. researchers denied it."
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No I posted because the headline made me laugh.
I just figured something like "Oh so you read things like this, but nothing else?" so I made that comment
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 10:53pm
FreeEnterprise wrote:
"The AP is mentioned several times in the e-mails, usually in reference to a published story. One scientist says his remarks were reported with "a bit of journalistic license" and "I would have rephrased or re-expressed some of what was written if I had seen it before it was released." The archive also includes a request from an AP reporter, one of the writers of this story, for reaction to a study, a standard step for journalists seeking quotes for their stories."
complicit. |
OH MY GOD A REPORTER WHO BELONGED TO THE AP (READ: THERE ARE A LOT OF REPORTERS IN THE AP) ASKED FOR A QUOTE ON A STUDY, SO THIS ARTICLE BY A DIFFERENT MEMBER OF THE AP IS RIFE WITH FAULT
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Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 10:54pm
THIS JUST IN; EVERY TIME A CONSERVATIVE SAYS SOMETHING STUPID, I WILL ATTRIBUTE IT TO FREEENTERPRISE
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 12 December 2009 at 11:18pm
I don't see how this has changed anything.
The AP is not a scientific authority, they are a reporting one.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 13 December 2009 at 1:22am
ParielIsBack wrote:
I don't see how this has changed anything.
The AP is not a scientific authority, they are a reporting one.
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Weird...you're not Linus.
The underlying meaning: your suggestion that the press cannot accurately report on a scientific item because they are not a "scientific authority," implies that the press cannot report on anything, as they are not an authority in any field save their own.
Thank you for your time.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 13 December 2009 at 1:28am
No, what I'm saying is that they didn't have a qualified expert look at the data and then interview them.
They came to the conclusion that the data was correct based on their reading of the e-mails, not by analyzing the data. Are they right? Perhaps. But they haven't proven anything.
If you'd like to read that as "The press aren't qualified to report on anything", you're probably not wrong though. They're not qualified, it's just that no one else will do it.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: Hitman
Date Posted: 13 December 2009 at 2:33am
I'll admit that I didn't read any of this thread but think about this.. the internet use's a lot of electricity just to run.
Did you see the latest episode of Jersey Shore?
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 14 December 2009 at 9:05am
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So the AP does an article, that is very similar to the "findings" of acorns own internal investigation.
"nothing wrong, move along, nothing to see here"...
Yet, they choose to ignore the main "skeptic" mentioned over and over in the climategate emails.
Yeah, they have "truth" on their mind.
Course the media in Canada did write an article about him if you are interested in the facts of the massive titan who single handedly threatened man made global warming... He must have been funded by big business huh?...
http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/13/centre-of-the-storm/ - http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/13/centre-of-the-storm/
the ap is a joke.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 14 December 2009 at 9:42am
Clearly FE is the far more qualified body than the AP when it comes to reporting.
Or perhaps it's likely that when the majority of scientists support an idea, it seems that idea has more merit, hence they jump on that side.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 14 December 2009 at 9:59am
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Yes, the old "consensus" misnomer.
Yeah for free thinking, we are all so "independent" of thought now... Oh wait... your just repeating the ap's stellar job of consensus science.
I know its hard to grasp, but consensus isn't science.
Otherwise people wouldn't have a problem with sharia law, or one child families like China. Since there is a large consensus to support these ideals...
This article covers it best, if your interested in expanding your thoughts.
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=d35ca1eb-50b8-4546-8950-ca9ad18eb252&p=1 - http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=d35ca1eb-50b8-4546-8950-ca9ad18eb252&p=1
Climate consensus and the end of science
"It is now firmly established, repeated ad nauseam in the media and elsewhere, that the debate over global warming has been settled by scientific consensus. The subject is closed. It seems unnecessary to labour the point, but here are a couple of typical statements: "The scientific consensus is clear: human-caused climate change is happening" (David Suzuki Foundation); "There is overwhelming scientific consensus" that greenhouse gases emitted by man cause global temperatures to rise (Mother Jones).
Back when modern science was born, the battle between consensus and new science worked the other way around. More often than not, the consensus of the time -- dictated by religion, prejudice, mysticism and wild speculation, false premises -- was wrong. The role of science, from Galileo to Newton and through the centuries, has been to debunk the consensus and move us forward. But now science has been stripped of its basis in experiment, knowledge, reason and the scientific method and made subject to the consensus created by politics and bureaucrats.
As a mass phenomenon, repeated appeals to consensus to support a scientific claim are relatively new. But it is not new to science. For more than a century, various philosophical troublemakers have been trying to undermine science and the scientific method. These range from Marxists who saw science as a product of class warfare and historical materialism -- Newton was a lackey of the ruling classes and pawn of history -- to scores of sociological theorists and philosophers who spent much of the 20th century attempting to subvert the first principles of modern, Enlightenment science.
Reproduced on this page is the latest Wikipedia entry titled "Consensus Science." It sets out a bit of context for one aspect of the use of consensus in science. While the Wikipedia item is a useful, if rough, polemical introduction to the issue, it doesn't begin to plumb the ocean of dense philosophical discourse behind the movement to turn science -- the pursuit of fact, knowledge and truth through the scientific method, based on reason and experiment -- into a great social swamp of beliefs marked by consensus, social arrangements and customarily accepted ideas.
Throughout the 20th century, science was overwhelmed by the sociology of science and "sociological explanations of knowledge." At the extreme, we end up with the idea that there are no facts and nothing is verifiable. "Customs and conventions are seen as the creations of human agents, actively negotiated and actively sustained, under the collective control of those who initially negotiate them.... Scientific knowledge is seen as customarily accepted belief."
This is from "Sociological Theories of Scientific Knowledge," an essay by Barry Barnes, University of Edinburgh, in the Routledge Companion to the History of Modern Science (1990). Most of the recent history of science theory is a series of attempts by one camp after another to demolish the basic principles of science and install a new order based on political and sociological collectivism. While early hard-core Marxist views on science were too crazy to gain support, various "New Marxists" came along with more subtle forms of subversion. "This New Marxism," said Roy Porter of London's Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, "has aimed to depriviledge science, restoring it to the same plane as other belief systems."
If science were to become a belief system, then the belief with the greatest number of followers would become established fact and received knowledge. Knowledge based on observation and rational inference would play second fiddle to what Barnes calls "customarily accepted belief." This belief is "sustained by consensus and authority."
This is not just one science writer proposing a theory. Barnes is reporting on the mainstream elements of new science thought over more than a century. Ideas come from such well-known brand names such as Marx and Kant, but mostly from a procession of philosophers even most scientists have never heard of. It's a jungle, to be sure, filled with impenetrable language and philosophical jargon. But the trend is clear.
Global warming science by consensus, with appeals to United Nations panels and other agencies as authorities, is the apotheosis of the century-long crusade to overthrow the foundations of modern science and replace them with collectivist social theories of science. "Where a specific body of knowledge is recognized and accepted by a body of scientists, there would seem to be a need to regard that acceptance as a matter of contingent fact," writes Barnes. This means that knowledge is "undetermined by experience." It takes us "away from an individualistic rationalist account of evaluation towards a collectivist conventionalist account."
In short, under the new authoritarian science based on consensus, science doesn't matter much any more. If one scientist's 1,000-year chart showing rising global temperatures is based on bad data, it doesn't matter because we still otherwise have a consensus. If a polar bear expert says polar bears appear to be thriving, thus disproving a popular climate theory, the expert and his numbers are dismissed as being outside the consensus. If studies show solar fluctuations rather than carbon emissions may be causing climate change, these are damned as relics of the old scientific method. If ice caps are not all melting, with some even getting larger, the evidence is ridiculed and condemned. We have a consensus, and this contradictory science is just noise from the skeptical fringe.
Jasper McKee, professor of physics at the University of Manitoba and editor of Physics in Canada, asked recently: "Is scientific fact no longer necessary?" Apparently it's not. "In the absence of hard scientific fact or causal relationships, a majority vote of scientists can determine scientific truth."
Perhaps, says Mr. McKee, the great scientific revolution begun in the Renaissance of the 17th century is over and the need for science is gone. "The prospects," he says, "are alarming." In the end, though, real science can only win. If real science produces truth that the consensus method cannot, any consensus will inevitably fail to hold. Until then, however, we will have to live with the likes of David Suzuki."
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 14 December 2009 at 10:13am
I facepalmed so hard I nearly took my head off. On an unrelated note, FE, I really would like to hear your take on the LHC and the search for the existence of the Higgs boson. And please, ease up on the copypasta, a man can only have so much before he is simply full.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 14 December 2009 at 10:19am
Yet the article totally fails to prove that it is, in fact, science by consensus. It simply accuses us of accepting global warming because the majority of scientists agree with it. The vast majority of scientists agree with Newton's law, as well. Is that wrong too? You can't argue that something's wrong simply because most people agree it's right.
More importantly, nothing is absolute in science. Most scientific laws apply to only a small set of circumstances, and most real life situations require complicated models or experimentally expressed values to make any sense. As I've said before, burying our collective head in the sand over global warming because someone whipped out a couple of e-mails is idiotic. If going to the UN is what's going to continue funding for climate change research, I'm fine with that. Also, the facts are that the majority of data still is unchanged, no matter what these e-mails say. That data points towards climate change, but we don't have a predictive model for what that change will be in 50 or 100 years. Before we have that model, we can't afford to stop climate change research.
------------- BU Engineering 2012
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Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 14 December 2009 at 10:54am
I still fail to see how taking care of the environment is a bad thing.
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 14 December 2009 at 10:59am
Those damn Secular Humanists
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