Ok guys...is this one justified?
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Topic: Ok guys...is this one justified?
Posted By: Flurry
Subject: Ok guys...is this one justified?
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 7:26am
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Now, I know this isn't a 10 y/o child...But none the less.
http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_samurai_1212dec12,0,2025826.story - http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_samurai_1212dec12,0,2025826.story ------------- It sucks being antisocial alone. |
Replies:
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 7:29am
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The sword says yes.
------------- ? |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 7:35am
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Well duh this is justified, its a grown man with a katana! ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 7:44am
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Hell, they would have been justified in immediately proceeding to lethal force. The fact that they restricted their use of force to a taser, even after it had already failed once, was unquestionably courageous, though perhaps not the best judgement- having already been tasered, the man came at them with a sword. I'm astonished he wasn't shot. Good on the cops though, and it's unfortunate it ended in tragedy. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 8:48am
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That's exactly the type of situation the Taser was invented to solve. Sad that it ended how it did. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:15pm
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No obviously not. He died. Are you joking? You can't kill a man, what do we just ignore innocent until proven guilty now and go straight to death sentence? ------------- Que pasa? 
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:23pm
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And the trolling begins. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: Enmity
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:32pm
The man swung a sword at the officers, you're telling me if you had a gun on you and a man went at you with a sword you wouldn't pull it out a shoot him? This was 100% justified, sad it ended in tragedy but either way, he's lucky they did not go straight for their guns and shoot him. ------------- 
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jmac3 wrote:Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:33pm
They tased him twice. I am pretty sure once is enough. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:36pm
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Did you read the article? Because he pulled out the first set of leads. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:47pm
| Seriously jmac? |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:48pm
Yeah I'm sure he did. How convenient there is no evidence that can support that claim ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 12:59pm
An autopsy could relatively easily discover the amount current going through his body, actually. Two Tasers running current through him could legitimately kill him, but there would be telltale marks, probably even internally. I'd bet he had a heart problem of some sort, that's generally the case when this happens. Again, tragic, but should the cops have put their lives on the line to subdue this guy? I don't think so. Again, this is the exact situation Tasers were invented for. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:15pm
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That's one of the real problems I have with the Taser. People with heart problems aren't visually distinguishable. That being said if I were ever in a situation where a cop had a Taser pointed at me I would do everything in my power to avoid being shocked. I know my heart problem probably wouldn't be a death sentence if shocked like that, as it is only minor at this point, but it still exists and I would not put myself in danger. Are any other forms of less than lethal force still used or have all cops gone Taser happy? ------------- 
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:17pm
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I find the whole thing shocking. What a slice out of our liberties. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:23pm
I do think that the Tasers causes cops to disregard the use of other non-lethals. But I've also seen cops use billy clubs and pepper spray on people, even though they're carrying Tasers. Generally, that only happens when they want people to move out of an area, rather than arrest them, though. I'm not sure either would have helped in this situation. Having a man blinded by pepper spray and wildly waving a sword around doesn't seem like a great solution to me. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:26pm
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Sounds like a better solution than killing the man. Didn't even have to have an electric chair, we just electrify mentally ill men before hand! ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: DaveEllis
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:32pm
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In any use of force continuum this would qualify for the officers using deadly force, they attempted to just use less than lethal force to subdue the man. They would have been justified to use lethal force in this circumstance but chose not to. In addition all police officers loathe mace, it not only gets the suspect but will most likely end up on you or those around you and even if you avoid it while spraying it you will still end up on the ground wrestling with a five alarm bad guy. |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:33pm
Cause im sure thats what was going through their mind when a guy is waving a freaking katana in your face. |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:37pm
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Jmac, please stop using up my air. ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:40pm
Why? ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:41pm
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^because there are much better things that air could be doing. ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:42pm
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I'm sorry I think cops shouldn't be allowed to tase a man twice. he had mental problems.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:42pm
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Mentally ill people don't get a free pass for being mentally ill. I will point out a previous dealing with a mentally ill man, not all that different: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/28/nyregion/when-mental-illness-meets-police-firepower-shift-training-for-officers-reflects.html?scp=5&sq=mentally%20ill%20man%20nypd&st=cse - Here Given the choice between shooting at him, and hitting him with a Taser, I'd take the Taser every time. Because that was the choice here. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:44pm
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 1:45pm
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Really jmac? Really? No, I'm serious....REALLY? What were they supposed to do,produce an armored knight or a ninja to have equal force? They justifiably could have capped his arse. Crazy or not, he's an imminent danger to everyone around him. "Less leathal" means it is an alternative to deadly force. I think tasers should be used in cases where it's safe to do so as an alternative to a firearm, this is clearly one of those cases. Do you really think officers should have tried to take on a guy with a sword using a stick? |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 2:06pm
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Actually, I kind of like the dressing up as a knight and taking him down idea.
------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 2:13pm
I was just about to post that. |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 3:01pm
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Not justified at all. It was just a katana, it wasn't a gun. Don't the police get clubs anymore? That should have been more than enough to defend themselves with, especially if they used their training.
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 3:17pm
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Again: Baton=stick I don't care what kind of training you have, a katana can theoretically cut a man in half and is a deadly weapon. It's not like it was a pocketknife or bic pen. This has inspired me to bust out the katana and try it on a frozen pumpkin..... |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 3:21pm
Fine, next time the police have this problem, you can handle it. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 3:27pm
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You guys should know better by now...
-------------  irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 3:28pm
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My brother and I used to katana/club fight all the time. It really isn't a big deal.
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 3:45pm
| No words. |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:00pm
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Taser=attempt to save four lives in this situation. Firearm=saving three lives in this situation.Baton=putting three lives at risk.
Do the math. ------------- 
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:05pm
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Cops are always putting their lives at risk with everything they do. Their lives were already at risk, therefore: Taser=putting one life at risk Baton=saving one life Do the math. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:06pm
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:14pm
For one, I dont see many police officiers walking around with batons much. Mind you, im in a crime ridden city.
Secondly, the guy has a katana. Approaching him within range of said katana puts you at a HUGE risk. How do you know if the guy knows how to use it? How do you know if the thing is real or a replica? You dont.
Id try to subdue the guy with a tazer every time. I'm sorry, I want to see my family again.
Finally, its relatively easy to kill someone by slugging them in the head with a baton, anyway. -------------
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Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:14pm
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Here's the only real question you need to answer before it's justified: Was he resisting arrest?
If he didn't want tased, he should've dropped the sword and stopped after the first zap. ------------- 
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:22pm
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This is retarted, same goes for jmac. ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:33pm
Oh the irony. I am going to take a break from me winning the debate now. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:35pm
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Seriously, way to be able to spell when saying something like that. Why don't you explain to me how I am being retarded? This guy had no gun, and they killed him. They could have backed up 10 feet and tried to talk him down rather than just blasting him with a taser. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:36pm
The only thing you're winning is the silver medal in the 'facepalm' contest. ------------- ? |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:47pm
| No, that's cool guys. Don't keep the puns going. |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:48pm
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Was the use of the tazer justified in this case? 100% yes. The guy was a direct threat to the lives of the people around him, including the police officers. If he had had a gun, they'd have shot him- mentally challenged or not. You don't risk the lives of multiple people in the off chance that you can safely put down a man wielding a deadly weapon. If the man keeps going after being tazed once, are the police justified in using the zapper again? 100% yes. What else are they supposed to do? Now they not only have a mentally unbalanced man with a sword on their hands, they managed to piss him off even more, probably upping the chance of him doing damage if they try to use some alternate method of restraint. If anything, I commend them for attempting to use a non-lethal method of putting the guy down rather than just aerating his skull with a few 9mm holes- which would have ALSO been justified. The guy ends up dead. Its unfortunate, but I don't see any reason at all to claim that the actions of the police officers were not justified. You guys with your "They should have used their training to end this differently" are not going to be happy until a police officer is killed are you? ------------- ? |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:49pm
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Jmac, your solution to EVERYTING seems to be "walk away and talk to them".
Can you walk away faster than he could run? Seriously, why don't you take your mad ninja talking down skills and become a polcie negotiator?
It is now 2009. Nearly 2010. That's 6 years of what you call blatant overuse, with one death. It is very very hard to talk down mentally unstable people. What's more is a Tazer is meant to be use in situations where going hands on is a bad idea. This describes a crazy guy with a sword to a T. You are putting yourself at serious risk by getting inside the reach of the guy's sword. Somethig you'd have to do with everything besides a firearm or a Tazer. Or your mad ninja talking skillz of course. Why is it you only see a firearm as a reason to Taser someone? A firearm is a reason for two to the center mass, In the 10 year old thread you said you could see the need to tazer if she had a weapon. This guy had a weapon, now Tazers are bad again? That was about the most unsubtle troll you've ever done. Same with Eville. Batton against a sword? Honestly? Grow up. KBK |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:50pm
Can I help it if I don't always care to take a stab at silly jokes? ------------- ? |
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:52pm
Yes, spelling is really important. ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 4:54pm
The mad thing is, THEY DID USE THEIR TRAINING. And this is how it ended. Yet somehow this training isn't enough, or isn't right, or doesn't meet with Jmac's level of police training.
Wierd that. KBK |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 5:03pm
I'm going to cut in here for a second with my opinion: *Puns off, my actual opinion* While I tend to think that police have roundly overused Tasers (They are a name brand BTW, like Kleenex) largely because 1) The "It's a new toy" mentality, and 2) While it can be easily used in a positive way to fill the gap between lethal and non-lethal situations, it cal also be used the other direction negatively, in situations where it is not needed and "diplomacy" would work just as easily... ...This is just not one of those situations. Dude had a deadly weapon and didn't go down after one attempt. |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 5:11pm
Oh really? ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Flurry
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 5:14pm
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ok, guys the suspect had a SWORD. SWORD = deadly force. Yes the cops could have backed off...and backed off, and backed off. But going on that line of thinking they could also close down all of the PD's and let social workers take over the country's problems.
The death was not planned. Look at half of the vids of people being hit with a taser. Most of them get the ride twice if not more. The taser is designed as a less than lethal device. The baton aka "CLUB" most departments that have tasers don't carry batons anymore. I know of alot of dept's that don't carry pepperspray because some sprays have been known to catch fire when the person gets the taser after being sprayed.
I know that it was a sword...now lets look at the whole "Back off 10 ft." thing. A person can make well over 10 ft even after being shot in a very short time. A lot of officers have been hurt and killed because they have tried to use non lethal force on someone with a blade. That is a mistake that has been learned from by most of LE.
When it comes down to it the guy had raised a sword against LE and the officers attempted to use a less lethal device on him, but that failed. Perhaps the guy was on some sort of drug, or had a pre existing heart problem. Confined space + rageing adult male with a sword = Very bad. Police are not trained to sword fight a blade against a metal baton "There are still plastic PR24 batons in use out there". Police are trained to use lethal force when matched with lethal force. These officers attempted to use less lethal force but the suspect died anyways. And durring the time they waited for the family to get there with a key for the door I am sure the officers were attempting to talk with the suspect.
And just to get it outta the way, Most police depts don't have the rubber bullets or bean bag shotgun shells or riot shields. We would have to be driving full sized vans to carry half of the things that people think we carry in patrol.
Just a katana....There are officers that have been stabbed with screw drivers, sissors, ice picks, and other assorted sharp objects. If any of you run toward an officer with something like that and expect to get a hug...you're outta your mind. ------------- It sucks being antisocial alone. |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 5:22pm
This needs to be corrected. |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 5:34pm
Agreed. Should have taken lessons from this guy while they had the chance. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 5:36pm
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They did. The lesson was next time just shoot him because Tazers are unreliable.
KBK |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 5:44pm
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I agree 100% with the use of Tasers given the situation.
------------- 
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 6:19pm
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Maybe if they had of shot him, you could have made a reasonable (yet still wrong) argument for the use of non-lethal force. Or even the abolishment of tasers. But lethal force was what was employed. There were of course incidents where tasers have killed in the past (as well as numerous other types of non lethal force by the way.. pepper spray and batons included) but no officer ever fired a taser expecting to kill someone. ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 8:15pm
| Did the Katana test on a frozen pumpkin with a $20 yard sale replica. From the draw was able to halve the pumpkin, then proceeded to slice it into thin cookies easily. Frozen pumpkins are thicker and more dense than a human neck. For the finale I re-stacked the cookies on the chopping block and tried to chop the whole mess in half, I succeeded in shatter the blade into three pieces on the block. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 8:32pm
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Props to Jmac for a well executed troll. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 8:34pm
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I'm usually against the use of tasers in many of the articles posted here ... This is not one of them. Like has been repeated above, they could have just whipped out their gun and shot him. Instead, they genuinely intended to subdue him with the tasers. This situation is exactly what they were made for. ------------- <Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules> |
Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 8:51pm
The toll has been paid. ------------- 
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 10:10pm
| I vote jmac troll of teh year award. |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 15 December 2009 at 11:11pm
After that rant, I want some water, it quenches thirst you know.  ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 16 December 2009 at 12:33am
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The officers knew this guy was unbalanced. That is why they decided to use a taser over the pistols. Had they no information on this guy, they'd have perforated him. There is a misconception about kevlar vests. People think that since they can stop bullets, they should be able to stop a blade. This is not true. A person with a knife is a very real threat to police officers. They can and will respond to deadly force.
I mentioned a buddy of mine that used to be a cop in another thread. He had to shoot a guy advancing on him with a knife. This guy took his own son hostage with a knife at his throat. They managed to get the boy away from him and he took off. They pursued and had him surrounded in a parking lot behind a bar. He wildly flailed at them with the knife. Now, this was shortly after this department was issued pepper spray. No tasers were available yet. They hit this guy full in the face with (2) 2oz canisters of this stuff and it had no effect on him. The order was to back off and give him an avenue to escape so they could try again. Instead of taking off, he advanced on my friend and backed him into the corner of the parking lot in the corner of two buildings. My buddy gave him several loud commands to drop the knife and get on the ground. He came within 10 feet (way too close IMHO) before he fired two shots to they guy's chest.
Just a couple of years ago, same department a woman with a large knife advanced on two officers inside her house after they responded to a domestic violence call. The officers backed away out of the house. She came after them. They backed all the way to their vehicles all the time giving her loud verbal commands to drop the knife. When she kept coming they opened fire and stopped her.
In both of these occasions, the people were outraged that deadly force was used against someone with a knife. They were even more incensed when the investigations by the state police and the Sheriff's department vindicated each of the officer's actions as they followed the department's policy & procedures and the use of force continuum.
Now had Mr. Katana Man survived his ordeal - he'd be thanking his lucky stars that those cops didn't react immediately with deadly force. Those officers were well within their rights to use it. ------------- 
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 16 December 2009 at 12:39am
------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 16 December 2009 at 12:48am
| lmao! |
Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 16 December 2009 at 3:02am
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Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 16 December 2009 at 3:07am
I love that song. -------------
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Posted By: Frozen Balls
Date Posted: 16 December 2009 at 3:09am
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 16 December 2009 at 3:54am
| Christ on a bike. |