Health Care Vote
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=184256
Printed Date: 01 February 2026 at 3:01pm
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Topic: Health Care Vote
Posted By: oldsoldier
Subject: Health Care Vote
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 6:50pm
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Does anyone have a link to this new Health Care bill? I know in this open and transparrent administration, we the represented must have made available a copy of the bill to read. I know Congress is in a hurry to pass 'the bill' my question is what is it and what does it contain. It appears no-one but Pelosi and Reid and the select few Dems writing it know what it actually contains. Hope Congress does take the time to read it before the 'vote', seeing that Brown from Mass may shatter the illusion. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 6:57pm
http://www.google.com/">
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 6:58pm
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Then there is http://www.opencongress.org/ - OpenCongress.org . I trust you're smart enough to locate the bill using either of these two methods.
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 8:05pm
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
High Voltage wrote:Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 10:06pm
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OK, lets try this again. The new bill being written combining both the House and Senate versions. You know the one the Dems are working on now, with no open door (C-Span) or Republicans allowed, true open and transparrent government. The old House and Senate Bills are being combined for the final version.
The one they are panicing on to get the vote before Brown ruins thier 'super majority'. I do believe that is what congress is hoping for, people such as the try google posters who have no true idea on how a bill becomes law. Maybe refresh yourselves on some schoolhouse rock. -------------
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 10:18pm
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So you want a copy of a document that hasn't been written yet? And you don't see how that is ridiculous?
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 10:23pm
------------- Que pasa? 
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Posted By: slackerr26
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 10:44pm
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you would like a random collection of strangers scattered across the world to link you to a bill that is being written as we speak? ya serious?
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 10:51pm
I think the entire point is that we haven't got a clue whats actually being written. I understand that campaign promises have a habit of falling by the wayside, but something as simple as televising the proceedings for one of the most monumental pieces of legislation? The 'hush-hush' atmosphere of this whole thing sort of smells like they KNOW they're doing something that not only their opposition but the general populace would disapprove of, but don't give a rats ass. ------------- ? |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 11:02pm
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Because if they televised the whole process and told everyone every single thought that came to mind, then the jump on everything conservative pundits would be raising hell about something that might not even make it into the final bill. Besides, this isn't a true democracy anyways. You elected people to think for you. Let them do their jobs. If it gets passed without any public release, then fine, complain about it. But until then, you have no grounds to complain.
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 11:40pm
If that was any weaker, you wouldn't have posted at all. ------------- ? |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 11:44pm
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 11:54pm
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Wow. ------------- 
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Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 12:21am
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I have to agree with Reb on this one. Even though Eville is right about the pundits doing backflips every time somebody from the other "team" says something, there's no reason that everything should take place behind closed doors. The pundits will spew their crap regardless of what information they have access to so that's no excuse to deprive the rest of us. You're basically saying that it would be bad to let people see what's going on because they might make a fuss about something that may not end up being meaningful later. Well, wouldn't that fuss be a good way to guide our representatives away from doing or wasting time on something that we don't want them to? Sounds to me like it would help politicians create something we actually agree with in the end. ------------- oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey Me: But only if they're hungary Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth |
Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 12:53am
Onto Obama'a promise for CSPAN, it's really nothing he can control. He can try to influence decisions in congress but he has no actual authority to enforce anything short of saying he won't pass a bill not negotiated in front of cspan, but that would mean no bill vs a **edited**ty bill that could be fixed in the mean time. ------------- 
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 2:39am
Did the members of Congress campaign with the promise of transparency? I only recall Obama running on that promise, and if that's the case, it's politicians being politicians, and anyone singling out Democrats is being disingenuous and a partisan whore.
The first part is most certainly true, especially with the (mis)information-super-highway tubes allowing any dinkus to say things as though his opinion actually carries anything valuable. ------------- 
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 9:52am
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I don't know if I buy that there's nothing President Obama could have done to get these proceedings televised or at least have updates released on a regular basis to the people that this is going to effect. I don't know how ANYONE regardless of party can shrug off the idea that after a bunch of secrecy these guys are going to come out of a room and say "ta-da!" ------------- ? |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 12:31pm
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You guys listen to way too much talk radio or something. They have you convinced that standard procedure is now somehow an evil secret society plotting to sneak some doomsday bill through without telling anyone else about it. They can't pass it without the rest of congress voting on it, which means the rest of congress will get to read it, which means it will have to be made public when it is done. This way you guys can complain all you want about what is actually in the bill, rather than everything that might have at one time been scratched down on a restaurant napkin. It will also cut down on the Rights ability to falsely claim that certain clauses are in the bill (death panels anybody?) when they aren't. If they releases the bill at every step of the way it only cause more confusion about what made it into the final bill and what didn't (fueled no doubt by the likes of Limbaugh/Beck and company). -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 1:44pm
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There has been a tendancy for congress to vote along party lines without the members even reading the legislation being voted on. If and when this bill clears the closed doors a vote will be hurried before many members will get a chance to read it. There is no hope for bipartisanship since the Republicans are locked out of the closed meeting where this bill is being written. And with Mass and Brown looming large a 'speed' vote is ensured before Brown if he wins can be seated. It does frighten me that many today show little interest in what Congress forces uopn the nation, and act as sheeple based on a 'trust' that this congress has forfieted many times over.
And yes it is supply and demand, increase the amount of people that can use the system, and with a defined amount of suppliers (doctors), yes rationing is inevitable. The VA is a classic example, since the cuts and the expanded number of eligable veterans the system providing benifits is collapsing. Just look at the come work for the VA commercials, the shortage of in house VA doctors and pharmisists which are now at critical levels with the Iraq/Afghan veterans flooding the financially limited system, resulting in delayed appointments and services (rationing the assets available). -------------
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 2:43pm
Now say "Baaaaa" Its all too convenient for my liking. Closed door (for all intents and purposes) proceedings with a sense of severe urgency to get this thing voted on and passed, while the possible 'deal breaker' vote hangs in the balance in MA? You really don't see any attempt to rule out contention before the vote can be made, with fingers crossed that Brown either loses in MA or they can get it done before he wins and throws a monkey wrench into the mix? ------------- ? |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 5:20pm
.... ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 5:22pm
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Thank you for proving my point reb.
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Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 5:26pm
Not as ridiculous as rushing it into law. Before anyone can see what it is. ------------- 
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 5:30pm
It has to be voted on like any other bill ever. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 5:38pm
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Yeah hopefully by then we will have a Republican Senator in Mass that will bury that Fiasco with Teddy. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 5:50pm
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Hopefully not just to piss you people off
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 6:58pm
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"you people" and we are the intolerant ones......Please
Anyone who feels that thier representitive as well as the people should not have a reasonable amount of time to read and voice opinion on this piece of legislation need to rethink thier lives, if something this important for thier future is seen as a 'oh well' vote. And seeing that the Dem buddies, labor unions are excempt from the 'cadillac' tax initially, really need to see the writing on the wall for thier fiscal future. -------------
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Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 7:43pm
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 7:56pm
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RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 8:26pm
Smartass remarks do very, very little to rebut or change any minds and only serve further prove that you either know nothing at all or are completely willing to ignore what could be planted right in front of you. ------------- ? |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 8:43pm
Smartass remarks? like this one: "Now say "Baaaaa""? -------------
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 8:51pm
Perhaps I should have said "Limiting your responses to smartass remarks.....etc." I didn't. My bad. ------------- ? |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 8:54pm
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The problem here is the fact that the Dems have been pushing this bill as an urgent, life or death scenario, using any means, be it dirty politics or whatever, to pass it-disregarding the fact that the public is apprehensive and on the whole completely in the dark as to the details.
There's no way you can justify this kind of politics-it's partisan to the core, and sets aside the interest and desire of the people for the "urgency" of agenda. -------------
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 9:40pm
Thats exactly what I was trying to get at. You said it better. The only thing I'd add is that a bit of urgency has to be coming from the possibility of them losing the vote that would send them over the top when this thing hits the floor. ------------- ? |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 9:42pm
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I don't know why we bother talking about these things on the forum anymore. There's never any legit discussion, it's just one crowd talking about about the other and vice versa. At least a couple years ago everyone was willing to put in the effort to argue. Now, not only is everyone a jerk to the opposing faction, everyone's lazy about it.
------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 10:02pm
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We've realized we are talking to a wall, but we are too opinionated to entirely give up. ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 10:09pm
Thats what politics has evolved into in general anymore. Campaigns are nothing but smears, debates are thinly veiled insults....all we've done here is follow the trend ------------- ? |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 10:11pm
It just seems that the urgency is so fabricated. I'm sure they're biting at their bits right now because they know this bill is in jeapordy, but my idealogy is what's so urgent about this bill? If this bill is a service to the people, and the people are unsure and split as to whether they want it, why is it such a pressing matter?
It would appear that some politicians have thrown their careers in a gamble on this bill, and they're desperate to get it through. I feel this has much less to do with American interest than with political interest.
Which is why I oppose what's going on-I can't say I oppose the bill, because I'm not 100% sure as to what exactly the bill will look like in final form, but I oppose anything that's rushed for political expediency disregarding the will of the American people.
Of course, for those that are just out to oppose the right, the details are insignificant, so long as they're pissing off some 'Publicans. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 10:55pm
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All you got to do is look at Nelson from NE, vote bought for a deal, now to save his butt in the election he is saying the medicare deal he was bought off with can be reversed if needed. He got back here to NE and got his head handed to him with the media and the voting public. So now it is pure damage control politics here in NE. -------------
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 12:59am
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Probably completely unrelated, but saw http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2010/01/after_obama_ral.php - this on Drudge today... It is, of course, still Bush's fault.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 2:56am
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Seldom has a Dem blamed his failures on him/herself. Carter, Clinton played the blame game, yet if the Rep (Bush) stated the it was Clintons fault the same Dems replied take responsibilities for your own actions, stop blaming Clinton. Another double standard. -------------
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 8:29am
Thank you for proving my point. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 8:57am
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 9:51am
Yes, the pesky details we aren't privy to that might make a whole lot of difference in the bill. ------------- 
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 9:55am
Better to be confused and let somebody clarify than let a bad bill get passed. -------------
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 10:01am
You're missing the point. Debate over these details would cost the democrats valuable time, and possibly the bill altogether. Their backs are to a wall. Either get it done quick fast and in a hurry or potentially lose the one vote that they've got which could almost promise that this goes through. So, rather than risk that, they're running for gate as quickly as they can, with as few people 'in on it' as they can manage to prevent even an iota of dissension that would stall this long enough to lose it. I'm highly inclined to believe that the hush hush sense of urgency here is directly tied to the MA senate race. I've yet to see it proven otherwise. And if it IS, then you really can't argue that everything isn't being crammed into as little time as possible to prevent the bill's overall loss. ------------- ? |
Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 10:02am
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This guy probably won't be heard in the closed Democrat meetings...
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc - http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc -------------
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 10:09am
He's probably already a candidate for death panel consideration. ------------- ? |
Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 10:18am
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 10:57am
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Yeah I stopped watching that video when he said "we are going to punish the 85% of americans who have earned health care benefits"
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 11:16am
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I just wanted to comment on the current state of politics and political discussions that some people touched on. Politics aren't fun to debate anymore. I don't know when it happened, but somewhere along the way, all this hyper-partisanship has utterly ruined everything. People are no longer willing to listen to the other side with any kind of patience or open-mindedness. I'm not blaming either "side", because that's where this trouble starts. People stop thinking of our situation as "we're all in this together", and instead, it becomes "us vs. them, my guy vs. theirs". What I've seen on this forum, in my family, and in the media saddens and sickens me. I'm not talking about Democrats or Republicans. I'm talking about American politics. I used to enjoy keeping up with politics and discussing things, but now, it's just a drag. The people around me seem so ready to tear the president apart over things that don't even matter, it's just draining. The whole thing has just made me entirely disenchanted with politics. I really don't ascribe to any party anymore. I don't think I'm ever voting again. I just wish we could actually get meaningful work done without each party demonizing the other constantly. I don't think the 2 party system is working for us right now. No matter who is in power, democrat or republican, it doesn't really matter. You still have the status quo, you still have 2 wars in the middle east, and you have crap legislation being pushed like the universe is going to end if it isn't passed tomorrow. I'm done with politics. I'm not supporting this system until it stops all this ridiculous fighting and blame-pointing. Maybe this all sounds idealistic, but I cannot support either party anymore. I don't feel they represent my interests anymore. Also, I'm going to apologize for this rambling rant that I've thrown together this morning. It hasn't been what I'd call an ideal morning, and I'm just getting things that have been on my mind out there. edited for grammar -------------  irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 11:26am
Yeah, you're right, from everything I'm finding via Google, it's somewhere around 84%.
The variable figure of American's who were uninsured in 2005 was somewhere around 15-16%, according to http://www.gallup.com/poll/121820/one-six-adults-without-health-insurance.aspx - this , http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=628 - this , and http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/18/barack-obama/number-those-without-health-insurance-about-46-mil/ - this .
I thought I found a CNN article that listed it has double that amount, but they were a tad misleading in their article, in that their figures were a two year average of those who were without insurance for six months or more at a time.
But from best I can see, the number is right at 15-16%.
That being said, also according to various of those sources, around 20-23% of that 15-16% are noncitizens-so the numbers are again, a tad misleading. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 11:43am
What does your post have to do with mine? ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 11:56am
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-? -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 12:02pm
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I am curious as to why you quoted me and went on some rant about the numbers
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 12:56pm
What? Really? ------------- ? |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 1:04pm
Yeah really. My post had nothing to do with the number. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 1:15pm
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American Politics have not been this polarized since 1858. Yes it is a war of ideology, and getting worse. Just legislating in a legal, open forum is gone by the wayside, closed door deals and buying votes (Ne and LA) has become a norm and raises little attention, or is ignored. Voting numbers are down, yet complaints are up. This health care wheeling and dealing is a prime example of agenda politics, to punish one class and to reward another. The rich legislators majing sure they are immune then punishing other successfull individuals and institutions (people, banks, industry) with high taxes, and rewarding another class (the poor?)to ensure a dependable voting base. Simple economics when the dependant finally outnumber the producers the fall of the empire is final, many examples in history. The Brown election is important, because with a Brown win it forces a bi-partisan approach to this legislation, gets it back in the open, and returns the 'checks and balances' as demanded by the Dems when the Republicans held all three branches. What scares me is when a media pundit for the left Ed Shultz on his national show states that to 'cheat' in the election to ensure Brown does not win is acceptable.
http://washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2010/jan/16/ed-schultz-id-cheat-keep-brown-winning/ - http://washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2010/jan/16/ed-schultz-id-cheat-keep-brown-winning/ And no-one seems alarmed at this. -------------
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 2:05pm
Then why even mention it? Why so clearly point out the segment where you stopped? ------------- ? |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 2:14pm
Because he acted like the 15% of people who don't have insurance have never earned it. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 2:31pm
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Dude I would have never pulled that from your original quote, but my bad...the post is, however, still relevant to my original point, being the inflated sense of urgency in passing this bill. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 3:18pm
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Not urgent, pure panic now, Brown in Mass could set the Dems agenda back, and taking over 1/3rd of the economy will be put on hold. This whole smoke and mirror attempt to sandbag the populace just shows how the Dems have an agenda, and even though this bill is showing as not popular by over 50% of the populace, they 'know better'. Political tricks and dirty politics will not be seen as just a Republican issue now.
Watch the returns in Mass tommorrow, and watch the panic grow in the Dem senate. I am covered VA for me and Champ VA for wife, I have no stake in this Health Care fiasco, but seeing the economic damage that can be done to my kids families, and beyond makes my position clear. -------------
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 3:26pm
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this article is interesting and very relevant to this discussion.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/01/18/this-is-exactly-why-american-politics-is-so-broken/ - http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/01/18/this-is-exactly-why-american-politics-is-so-broken/ ------------- They tremble at my name... 
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 18 January 2010 at 7:08pm
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This is old. But it gives you an idea what is being most likely 're-worded' and not necessarily changed in this 'closed-door' session free from prying eyes and whistle-blowers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcBaSP31Be8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcBaSP31Be8 -------------
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