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Obamacare... No big deal, right? Biden said it all

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Topic: Obamacare... No big deal, right? Biden said it all
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Subject: Obamacare... No big deal, right? Biden said it all
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 8:14am
So Catapillar a major manufacturer here in the US, announced they will be hit with $100,000,000 tax payment from Obamacare this quarter...
 
Wow, that should increase jobs.
 
Now, John Deer comes out, I'm sure Obama wanted them to be able to hire more employees, right?...
 
uh oh.
 
http://www.cnbc.com/id/36032946/ - http://www.cnbc.com/id/36032946/
 
$150,000,000.00
 
 
This thread is to post the results of this amazing ground breaking legislation, and the affect it has on jobs.
 
 
 
Here is some positive affect. 16,000 new employees!
 
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100325/NEWS/100329631/1109/SPORTS?Title=Norm-Poulint-Obamacare - http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100325/NEWS/100329631/1109/SPORTS?Title=Norm-Poulint-Obamacare
 
Yeah, we need jobs. The writer of that article brings up a good point. Was the healthcare of the new 16,000 employees figured into the costs of the bill?... I doubt it.
 
 
 
post the articles that relate to the passage of Obamacare. It will be interesting to see how jobs are affected by this. Course if you don't have a job, or your family doesn't have a job, you will only see pony's and rainbows.
 
But... If your dad works at a large company and has good healthcare. You can bet they will either restate earning projections for this year (which the news will HAVE to report...) or they will slash benefits.
 
The larger the company the larger the hit.
 
P&G is in my town, and I know for a fact, that they have just eliminated over 2,000 jobs this week alone...
 
More to come as we watch the ramifications of bull dozing through this bill. It will affect every American on this board.
 
Change it's what's for dinner!
 
 


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They tremble at my name...



Replies:
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 8:19am
Oh, and if you have a hsa, like me...
 
Then you can't buy over the counter medication with your pretaxed health savings account.
 
Thank you Obamacare. I spend a fortune on Allergy medicine. and now I will pay 40% more for them.
 
I'm sure that will increase jobs. Oh wait, no it won't.
 
http://biggovernment.com/jberlau/2010/03/25/seeing-red-at-reconciliation-over-medicine-cabinet-tax/ - http://biggovernment.com/jberlau/2010/03/25/seeing-red-at-reconciliation-over-medicine-cabinet-tax/
 
strange that NO news source has picked up on this yet...
 
weird...


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 12:11pm
Enough healthcare reform threads. All these healthcare related topics should fit into one thread. Now you're just spamming the board.

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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by freeenterprise freeenterprise wrote:

Change it's what we will have left to buy dinner with!


Fixed.

Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

Enough healthcare reform threads. All these healthcare related topics should fit into one thread. Now you're just spamming the board.


And you're helping him by bumping it back to the top with your whining*.  (duh!)


*Of course, so am I by replying, but since I am capable of reading the title of threads, deciding if I want to enter them or not, and then acting on the results of that decision; it doesn't bug me to do so.


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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 1:26pm
Speaking of Biden's outburst, it reaffirms my statement that being Joe Biden's handler has got to be one of the worst jobs in all of Washington. 


Posted By: JohnnyHopper
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Speaking of Biden's outburst, it reaffirms my statement that being Joe Biden's handler has got to be one of the worst jobs in all of Washington. 


Actually whoever got it is just the worst at it.

How hard is it to make sure all his meals are properly seasoned with diazepam?



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My shoes of peace have steel toes.


Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 1:59pm
The more time goes on, the more Joe Biden reminds me of Jim Mora.




Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 2:25pm
I think he'd be a really hilarious dinner guest.

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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Speaking of Biden's outburst, it reaffirms my statement that being Joe Biden's handler has got to be one of the worst jobs in all of Washington. 
  Would it be worse than having to go on a hunting trip with Dick Cheney?


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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

The more time goes on, the more Joe Biden reminds me of Jim Mora.


He makes Dan Quayle look like a genius sometimes.

Oh, and his handler needs to invest in one of these:



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<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>


Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Speaking of Biden's outburst, it reaffirms my statement that being Joe Biden's handler has got to be one of the worst jobs in all of Washington. 
I just had a mental image of somebody following Biden around with a pooper-scooper.  Thanks for the smile, Whale!  Big smile


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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 29 March 2010 at 12:31pm
More great news about the cost of Obamacare from our largest employers. I'm sure after paying these new taxes, they will be in the mood to hire more employees so they can pay even more taxes... And your phone bill isn't going to go up... along with anything else you buy...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704100604575146002445136066.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704100604575146002445136066.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion
 
 

In other words, shoot the messenger. Black-letter financial accounting rules require that corporations immediately restate their earnings to reflect the present value of their long-term health liabilities, including a higher tax burden. Should these companies have played chicken with the Securities and Exchange Commission to avoid this politically inconvenient reality? Democrats don't like what their bill is doing in the real world, so they now want to intimidate CEOs into keeping quiet.

On top of AT&T's $1 billion, the writedown wave so far includes Deere & Co., $150 million; Caterpillar, $100 million; AK Steel, $31 million; 3M, $90 million; and Valero Energy, up to $20 million. Verizon has also warned its employees about its new higher health-care costs, and there will be many more in the coming days and weeks.

As Joe Biden might put it, this is a big, er, deal for shareholders and the economy. The consulting firm Towers Watson estimates that the total hit this year will reach nearly $14 billion, unless corporations cut retiree drug benefits when their labor contracts let them.

Meanwhile, John DiStaso of the New Hampshire Union Leader reported this week that ObamaCare could cost the Granite State's major ski resorts as much as $1 million in fines, because they hire large numbers of seasonal workers without offering health benefits. "The choices are pretty clear, either increase prices or cut costs, which could mean hiring fewer workers next winter," he wrote.

The Democratic political calculation with ObamaCare is the proverbial boiling frog: Gradually introduce a health-care entitlement by hiding the true costs, hook the middle class on new subsidies until they become unrepealable, but try to delay the adverse consequences and major new tax hikes so voters don't make the connection between their policy and the economic wreckage. But their bill was such a shoddy, jerry-rigged piece of work that the damage is coming sooner than even some critics expected.

 
the beginning of the end for the democrats.
 
http://blog.heritage.org/2010/03/29/morning-bell-our-long-national-obamacare-nightmare-is-just-beginning/ - http://blog.heritage.org/2010/03/29/morning-bell-our-long-national-obamacare-nightmare-is-just-beginning/


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 30 March 2010 at 12:31pm
Ahh, the new "hope and change" benefits for the youth...
 
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hLAMW_KTqY_JVMQF-gNn3O0_uUcQD9EOGMT03 - http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hLAMW_KTqY_JVMQF-gNn3O0_uUcQD9EOGMT03


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 31 March 2010 at 8:52am

Layoffs another benefit of Obamacare, and the new government takeover of student loans...

This is just one company, there will be tens of thousands of layoffs because of this benefit.
 
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/30/sallie-mae-blames-layoffs-obamas-student-loan-overhaul/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fpolitics+%28Text+-+Politics%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/30/sallie-mae-blames-layoffs-obamas-student-loan-overhaul/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fpolitics+%28Text+-+Politics%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo
 
"

Powerhouse student loan provider Sallie Mae says layoffs are imminent as a result of President Obama's new student loan overhaul.

"This legislation will force Sallie Mae to reduce our 8,600-person workforce by 2,500," Conwey Casillas, Vice President of Sallie Mae Public Affairs, said in a statement to Fox News."

 
 
And this is the best one yet...
 
a VAST CEO conspiracy!
 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304370304575151760348759360.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304370304575151760348759360.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines
 
 
 
But, the youth in our society voted 2 to 1 for Obama...
 
And if you haven't heard of Jason Mattera, you should look him up. This kid is great, his video's are hysterical.


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 31 March 2010 at 10:07am
I like this line from the first link fe posted. 

Originally posted by AP article AP article wrote:

Young people will need to carry more of the burden of health care under the new health overhaul law. The new law limits an industry practice of charging older customers more.


For some reason it made me think of one of the discussions on health care I was involved with on this forum early in the debate.  I pointed out something along the lines of the fact that you can't give more people, better service without it being more expensive for someone.  If I remember correctly it resulted in a back and forth disagreement ("yes we can"/"no we can't") that culminated in someone saying it would be less expensive because the President said so.

This really is the very definition of socialism.  With a group (the young) who don't utilize a  service (health care) paying more to support a group (the old) who do utilize it more.  It hardly seems fair . . . but I don't care that much since I'm old.


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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 31 March 2010 at 10:57am
Sad part is, the biggest hurdle yet for the youth is the lack of jobs...
 
And it will only get worse because of Obamacare's new costs on business... We are seeing signs already pointing in that direction.
 
for example
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aSfp5pL7BSTM&pos=2 - http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aSfp5pL7BSTM&pos=2
 
notice who is hiring based on the article...
 
And those are temp jobs... which will run out.


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 31 March 2010 at 12:09pm
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the benefits of youth are still more than the downsides, at least when it comes to health care.

Considering more plans will now cover children for a longer period of time now.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 01 April 2010 at 2:01pm
Yeah, more coverage never equates higher costs?... oh wait.
 
I'm glad we are living with Obamanomics now, they are really helping in NC where I grew up.
 
"focused like a laser on jobs"...
 
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/01/raw-data-north-carolina-statistics-paint-bleak-economic-picture/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fpolitics+%28Text+-+Politics%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/01/raw-data-north-carolina-statistics-paint-bleak-economic-picture/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fpolitics+%28Text+-+Politics%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 01 April 2010 at 10:28pm
Sigh...

I don't remember claiming that more health care costs less.  I don't expect it to.  As amazing as this sounds, I'm actually interested in paying more if it means more coverage. Fancy that.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 01 April 2010 at 10:39pm
Well if I'm insured this summer you can bet i'll be doing a lot more mountain biking, whitewater canoeing, mountain climbing, skydiving etc. If I'm going to pay more (or better yet, weasel my parents into paying for) my insurance, I might as well be stupid. And to top it off, I have not had and don't plan to have an H1N1 shot. Suck it taxpayers. 


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 02 April 2010 at 11:06am
Guys, I have a secret:

I didn't get an H1N1 shot because I'm pretty sure I had it in the fall.

So there.

Also, I did get the regular flu shot.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 05 April 2010 at 12:50pm

This article points out the massive benefits the increased taxes in Obamacare will be for families...

 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704207504575130171387740744.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_RIGHTTopCarousel - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704207504575130171387740744.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_RIGHTTopCarousel
 
don't worry, I'm sure it won't affect YOU...


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 05 April 2010 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

This article points out the massive benefits the increased taxes in Obamacare will be for families...

 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704207504575130171387740744.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_RIGHTTopCarousel - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704207504575130171387740744.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_RIGHTTopCarousel
 
don't worry, I'm sure it won't affect YOU...


The article doesn't say that at all.  In fact, it is about parents who won't be able to help their children as much during college and post-graduation as they want to because of how tough the economy is.*  The closest it comes to mentioning health care is the example of one family that went without insurance so they could help pay for their son's travel.

One family is in trouble and (OMG) the child might have to consider a less-expensive college!  I especially liked this line:

Originally posted by fe's article fe's article wrote:

"Now, not only do parents no longer have the money to help their children out, but banks will no longer lend to home buyers without the income to support repayment," says Cheryl Russell, a demographer and author of "Americans and Their Homes: Demographics of Homeownership."


Should they have really been loaning money to people who don't have the income to repay it anyway?  Wasn't that how we got in this mess in the first place?

Basically, the entire article seems like whining by a bunch of people who had good jobs and instead of planning/saving for the future chose to live more extravagant than necessary lifestyles and are upset that the change in the economy caught them ill-prepared.

*During  college and post graduation expectations are apparently for mommy and daddy to be money trees.  Kids need to grow up and stand on their own two feet anyway.



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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 05 April 2010 at 2:41pm
You mean, we should learn to support ourselves instead of letting big grubment take care of us ala Obamacare?
 
You got my point perfectly...
 
By being able to use your logic, You get a medal!


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 05 April 2010 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

You mean, we should learn to support ourselves instead of letting big grubment take care of us ala Obamacare?
 
You got my point perfectly...
 
By being able to use your logic, You get a medal!


Thanks, but I already have ones I actually earned myself.

Oh, and I think that the fact these parents can't help their kids is probably a good thing.  As mentioned in the article perhaps it will actually result in a generation capable of doing things for themselves that appreciate the value of hard work, don't have an entitlement mentality and understand that nothing from the government is ever truly "free."


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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 10:30am
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0517093120100405 - http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0517093120100405
 
 

"By http://blogs.reuters.com/search/journalist.php?edition=us&n=kim.dixon& - Kim Dixon

WASHINGTON, April 5 (Reuters) - The Internal Revenue Service could tap individual tax returns to collect fines against people who fail to buy health insurance as required under recently enacted healthcare legislation, the U.S. tax commissioner said on Monday.

Most individuals are required to get health insurance under the new law, or face penalties that would be phased in over time. By 2016, people without coverage could see fines of 2 percent of their income.

Subsidies would help poorer people buy coverage (spread that wealth around...), and states would set up exchanges to allow individuals and small groups shop for insurance.

People who do not comply would be levied penalties, and if they don't pay them the penalties could be taken out of their tax refunds."



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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 07 April 2010 at 10:11am
 
'Where do we get the free Obama care, and how do I sign up for that?'

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/04/06/91696/health-care-overhaul-spawns-mass.html#ixzz0kQK83KE5 - http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/04/06/91696/health-care-overhaul-spawns-mass.html#ixzz0kQK83KE5

 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 07 April 2010 at 10:33am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 


<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; TEXT-ALIGN: left; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; : transparent; COLOR: #000000; OVERFLOW: ; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; TEXT-DECORATION: none">'Where do we get the free Obama care, and how do I sign up for that?'Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/04/06/91696/health-care-overhaul-spawns-mass.html#ixzz0kQK83KE5 - [COLOR=#0000ff - http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/04/06/91696/health-care-overhaul-spawns-mass.html#ixzz0kQK83KE5[/COLOR -

<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; TEXT-ALIGN: left; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; : transparent; COLOR: #000000; OVERFLOW: ; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> 
{qyote=article]That widespread misconception may have originated in part from distorted rhetoric about the legislation bubbling up from the hyper-partisan debate about it in Washington and some media outlets, such as when opponents denounced it as socialism.[/quote]

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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.


Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 07 April 2010 at 12:47pm
Jesus was a socialist, or at least a Marxist of some form. Just throwing that out there. Wink

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"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl


Forum Vice President

RIP T&O Forum


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 07 April 2010 at 12:55pm
Now that's a stretch.

I would say he falls a lot closer to socialism than capitalism though.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 07 April 2010 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Now that's a stretch.

I would say he falls a lot closer to socialism than capitalism though.
Pretty sure Jesus would be disgusted by the idea of capitalism.

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"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl


Forum Vice President

RIP T&O Forum


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 12 April 2010 at 1:47pm
http://leeterry.house.gov/Media/file/Government%20Takeover.pdf - http://leeterry.house.gov/Media/file/Government%20Takeover.pdf
 
 

159 Ways the Senate Bill Is a Government Takeover of Health Care



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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 12 April 2010 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Jesus was a socialist, or at least a Marxist of some form. Just throwing that out there. Wink


After that I had to post this:



Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 12 April 2010 at 5:25pm
Personally, I'm a fan of Jaysus, who is notably neglected here.

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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 1:43pm
"We have to pass the bill to find out what is in it... " so said Nancy Pelosi...
 
 
you know her ridiculous laugh. I am doing my best impression of it while reading this article!
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/us/politics/13health.html?bl - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/us/politics/13health.html?bl
 
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 April 2010 at 8:54am
 
A friend of mine made a little video about obamacare.
 
 
 
http://www.dividend.com/blog/?p=20258 - http://www.dividend.com/blog/?p=20258
 
"Looking ahead, the company warned that new Obamacare legislation would negatively affect earnings by 27 # - cents per share in 2010, with revenue taking a $350 to $400 million hit. In 2010, health care reform could hurt revenue by $600 million to $700 million.

Eli Lilly shares fell 99 cents, or -2.7%, in premarket trading Monday."

Proof that Obamacare eliminated the judgement of your doctor, so that the government can control your treatment... Yeah, this really blows chunks.
 
http://blog.heritage.org/2010/04/19/side-effects-the-doctor-is-not-in/ - http://blog.heritage.org/2010/04/19/side-effects-the-doctor-is-not-in/
 
"There is the very real prospect of many doctors simply giving up or refusing to practice under the government’s avalanche of new rules and regulations.

http://dailycaller.com/2010/04/14/arizona-doctor-says-obamacare-will-force-him-to-close-shop/print - Arizona dermatologist Joseph M. Scherzer M.D. reports in the Daily Caller that he plans to do just that.  He cites the impossibility of complying with Medicare’s bureaucratic guidelines and paperwork. The fine for failure to comply used to be $10,000. Under Obamacare, it’s now $50,000.

With penalties increased five-fold, doctors will feel even greater pressure to follow government treatment guidelines—even when they suspect the government-prescribed treatment may not be best for an individual patient.  It’s a not uncommon dilemma, as reported by, http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/feb/11/health-care-who-knows-best - Jerome Groopman, M.D., in The New York Review of Books :

Medicare specified that it was a ‘best practice’ to tightly control blood sugar levels in critically ill patients in intensive care. That measure of quality was not only shown to be wrong but resulted in a higher likelihood of death when compared to measures allowing a more flexible treatment and higher blood sugar. Similarly, government officials directed that normal blood sugar levels should be maintained in ambulatory diabetics with cardiovascular disease. Studies in Canada and the United States showed that this ‘best practice’ was misconceived. There were more deaths when doctors obeyed this rule than when patients received what the government had designated as subpar treatment (in which sugar levels were allowed to vary).

Under Obamacare, this sort of bureaucratic intervention is no longer limited to Medicare.  The new law creates an Institute for Comparative Effectiveness Research, which will define best practices using population-based research.  This will be used to create government-approved standards for the practice of medicine—deviant physicians will pay a penalty for failure to comply.

Obamacare is on track to cause a ../2010/04/09/side-effects-doctor-participation-may-vary - major doctor shortage .  Putting government officials between doctors and patients is sure to encourage even more doctors to quit their practice.  In Dr. Scherzer’s own words, “They’re providing disincentives to care that are making the practice of medicine repugnant.”"



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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 7:39am
Rah Wroh!
 (why does scoobie keep showing up?)
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36726295/from/RSS/ - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36726295/from/RSS/
 

"WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama's http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36726295/from/RSS/#">health care overhaul law will increase the nation's health care tab instead of bringing costs down, government economic forecasters concluded Thursday in a sobering assessment of the sweeping legislation.

A report by economic experts at the http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36726295/from/RSS/#">Health and Human Services Department said the health care remake will achieve Obama's aim of expanding health insurance — adding 34 million Americans to the coverage rolls.

But the analysis also found that the law falls short of the president's twin goal of controlling runaway costs. It also warned that Medicare cuts may be unrealistic and unsustainable, driving about 15 percent of hospitals into the red and "possibly jeopardizing access" to care for seniors."

 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 10:58am
^^^ It's from Fox News  oh wait . . . well it's only someone's opinion in a blog, hmmm that doesn't work either well it's posted by FE so it must be wrong.


On a serious note, this goes back to the point I made (that was roundly denied on this forum) at the start of the healthcare debate fiasco; you can't do more, and do it better, for more people and expect it to cost less.  Anyone who believes you can is probably sufficiently stupid that revocation of breeding privledges should be considered.

Edited Addition:  There probably are things that should have been addressed in this overhaul that would have helped with costs . . . but apparently they weren't.


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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 11:32am
Where was it stated we only had one shot at this? IMO they got the ball rolling, not the best start but it's something to be improved.

Also, as it has been asked plenty of times, what IS the proper cure for rising health care costs?


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Posted By: JohnnyHopper
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 11:49am
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

what IS the proper cure for rising health care costs?


Logan's Run?

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My shoes of peace have steel toes.


Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 12:17pm
I am not looking forward to working all summer to pay for my Romneycare. Dad changes jobs, it takes four months for him to be eligible through his company. It's too expensive to have me on it, I go to college, so I can't get it free through the state, and have been uninsured for more than a month, so can't get it through school. The other option is to buy crappy insurance at a price that is close to to half of my yearly income. I need to have this insurance to hold a job and go to school. Effen me in the Ay and telling me it's good for me. 


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 12:48pm
I have a feeling you be glad for it should you, for example, get hit by a car.

Yes, some things suck, but paying for insurance is a lot like taking your vitamins, working out, and sleeping enough every night: it pays off in the long run.

Although I agree the method by which we do it is not my favorite.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 4:34pm
I was going to get insurance the other day.

Cheap Plan gave me 5 doctors visits a year, and covered $50 for emergency visits. Yes FIFTY.

The next plan up gave me unlimited doctors visits, a $500 emergency deductible, $75 emergency copay, and then they only covered 70% of the ER visit.


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Que pasa?




Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 5:07pm
Costs?  Just wondering, coming from someone who won't need to buy insurance for at least another 5 years.

OK, that's not true, unless I'm unemployed until I'm 26.  But whatever.

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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 5:11pm
Cheap one was only like $25 a month. So wicked cheap and understandable.

The next one is $100 a month for a single non smoker. If I added a wife and kid it would be $250 a month.

This is insurance through my job.

I was wicked shocked because when I last worked full time I was paying $7.50 a week and coverage was way better than that.

You silly people act like health insurance is affordable.

Praying for this new job in a week where it has decent insurance and like triple the pay...


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Que pasa?




Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

Also, as it has been asked plenty of times, what IS the proper cure for rising health care costs?


Fixing the issues that lead to those costs.

There were some aspects of this bill that I actually had pretty high hopes for but then politics took precedence over common sense and medicine. As an example, one of the earlier versions would actually have cut down on unnecessary tests.  This in and of itself is not necessarily a solution but there was discussion of some malpractice protection in regards to "good faith" on the doctors' part.  I.e. if something was missed but the doctor followed standard approved medical practices then he/she was not necessarily liable.  One of the reasons for excessive testing is the CYA necessary to defend against malpractice suits if something goes wrong. 

While I think tort reform should have been considered, I am not talking solely about malpractice suits.  Part of the costs related to prescription drugs has to do with the risk a company takes every time they put a new drug on the market.  Take the example of Vioxx; it was on the market for six years before being withdrawn because of risks related to long-term use.  This drug was tested and approved as safe by the FDA but the dangers only became apparent once it was in wide-spread use.  There are now approximately 200 separate lawsuits related to the use of this drug.  Such litigation or the potential for it is a cost that has to be considered when putting anything on the market.  Failure to do so is a very quick way to go out of business. 

The point of this little story is that having FDA approval (assuming no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of a pharmaceutical company) should provide a certain level of protection from litigation.  Reducing costs (or potential costs) is a good way to reduce prices.  It should also be kept in mind that drug prices are not the only prices that are affected by the potential for litigation; the same logic can be applied to almost anything.  As an example, it would suck to be the company that designed the forceps that were the approved way to extract babies from the womb for many years until it was discovered that they caused damage.

My major problem with the current plan is that it was full of promises and very little else.  It was sold to the public (kind of*) with lines like once we pass it you'll see what is in it and you'll like it.**  Now that it passed, the truth is coming out (in this case about costs) even quicker than I figured it would.

I know some believe that the bill is just a start and it will be crafted an molded into something worthwhile.  I can't buy that . . . I really can't think of anything screwed up that politicians have done that has been improved by allowing them to keep messing with it.

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Praying for this new job in a week where it has decent insurance and like triple the pay...

Good luck. Thumbs Up

*Selling was going on but given the polls the public probably wasn't really buying. 
**Essentially what Pelosi was saying.


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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 1:27am
Personally, I'm all for refining tort law.

Just because someone made an honest mistake does not mean you are entitled to millions of dollars.  Especially when you don't work out, smoke, and have diabetes.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 11:11am
You're still going with the "Lawsuits cause high health care costs," talking point? 

Someone needs to bump the record player. 


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 2:42pm
^^^ No, I used that as an example because it is the easiest to explain.  (Additionally, pretending that they don't have some impact, given the cost of malpractice insurance, is just silly.)  Every aspect of the costs needs to be brought under control.  While I couldn't find the numbers on it, my bet is the CYA steps that equipment manufacturers, physicians and drug companies take so they can claim every precaution was taken in the rare case of a lawsuit adds significantly more to medical costs than the actual litigation that occurs.  However, this is a lot harder to get specific numbers* on than the actual costs of lawsuits that actually happened.  It usually just becomes "one of the costs of doing business;" how ever those costs do get passed on.

*The best numbers I have come from the instructor of one of my small business classes a few years ago.  He had a slide from an article that claimed for riskier small businesses (based on what they actually did) that tort prevention/mitigation steps could be responsible for up to 20% of costs.  Seeing as how, given our tort-happy environment, medical businesses could easily be considered risky it is something to consider.


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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 3:26pm
< ="utf-8">I understand. However, as has been pointed out by those in the know on this forum before, issues with law suits do not add up to much when it comes to health care costs. I may be wrong, but I believe the percentage - not of cost, but inflation levels - for law suits is only about 10 percent to 12 percent. 

The battle cry of "ending frivolous law suits" a bit of a Republican straw man answer to a lot of things. Which is why, at this point, it's hard to take seriously. 


Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 3:59pm
http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=389 - Congressional Budget Office

Quote Enacting a typical set of proposals would reduce federal budget deficits by roughly $54 billion over the next 10 years, according to estimates by CBO and the staff of the Joint Committee of Taxation. That figure includes savings of roughly $41 billion from Medicare, Medicaid, the Children’s Health Insurance Program, and the Federal Employees Health Benefits program, as well as an increase in tax revenues of roughly $13 billion from a reduction in private health care costs that would lead to higher taxable wages.


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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

I understand. However, as has been pointed out by those in the know on this forum before, issues with law suits do not add up to much when it comes to health care costs. I may be wrong, but I believe the percentage - not of cost, but inflation levels - for law suits is only about 10 percent to 12 percent. 

The battle cry of "ending frivolous law suits" a bit of a Republican straw man answer to a lot of things. Which is why, at this point, it's hard to take seriously. 


I don't see how doctors not having to pay, in some cases, tens of thousands of dollars a year simply to practice can be hurting us.  The problem with the system now is that it means bad doctors continue to practice medicine, costing everyone who pays for health care money, and continuing to provide bad medical care.

Do I think it's the only solution, or that it will solve the cost issue alone? No.  But it's an awfully easy thing to fix, and the reality is that everyone would win except the insurance companies.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 11:33pm
< ="utf-8">
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

 
I don't see how doctors not having to pay, in some cases, tens of thousands of dollars a year simply to practice can be helping us.  

In some cases, you mean very rarely. 

Originally posted by The Foundation for Taxpayer & Consumer's Rights The Foundation for Taxpayer & Consumer's Rights wrote:

] According to the Medical Protective filing: "Non-economic damages are a small percentage of total losses paid. Capping non-economic damages will show loss savings of 1.0%." The company also notes that a provision in the Texas law allowing for periodic payments of awards would provide a savings of only 1.1%. The insurer did not even provide its doctors that relief and eventually imposed a rate hike on its physician policyholders.



Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 25 April 2010 at 2:28am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

< ="utf-8">
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

 
I don't see how doctors not having to pay, in some cases, tens of thousands of dollars a year simply to practice can be helping us.  

In some cases, you mean very rarely. 

Originally posted by The Foundation for Taxpayer & Consumer's Rights The Foundation for Taxpayer & Consumer's Rights wrote:

] According to the Medical Protective filing: "Non-economic damages are a small percentage of total losses paid. Capping non-economic damages will show loss savings of 1.0%." The company also notes that a provision in the Texas law allowing for periodic payments of awards would provide a savings of only 1.1%. The insurer did not even provide its doctors that relief and eventually imposed a rate hike on its physician policyholders.



You missed my point.  I was not even referring to damages of any kind.  I specifically referred to the costs of taking preventive steps to mitigate/avoid responsibility for such damages.


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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 27 April 2010 at 8:03am

And the truth comes out...

 
Remember when Obummer built the web site to help you turn in people spreading "misinformation" about the health care bill.
 
You know stuff like "death panels"...
 
That was clearly something made up by Sarah Palin to discredit Obamacare... No way they would include that in the bill...
 
Uh, oh...
 
http://www.breitbart.tv/obamas-budget-director-powerful-rationing-panel-not-doctors-will-control-health-care-levels/ - http://www.breitbart.tv/obamas-budget-director-powerful-rationing-panel-not-doctors-will-control-health-care-levels/


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 27 April 2010 at 9:10am
And on a different note (see, with two thoughts, it makes sense to use TWO posts... Since I know someone will say "use the edit button")
 
Congress is going to have to wipe that egg off their faces. Guess they should have READ the bill, naa, nevermind.
 
They know better than you, nuff said.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/business/27health.html?ref=business - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/business/27health.html?ref=business
 
 
Here are some good quotes from the article.
 

Representative Joe L. Barton of Texas, the senior Republican on the House Energy and Commerce Committee, said, “From a financial standpoint, from a purely economic standpoint, many companies would be better off discontinuing health care as a fringe benefit, paying the penalty and pocketing the savings.”

A tabulation by the United States Chamber of Commerce shows that at least 40 companies have taken charges against earnings that total $3.4 billion since the law was signed.

“Companies like AT&T, Verizon and a range of stakeholder associations are hopeful that the benefits of the new law will outweigh the costs,” Mr. Waxman and Mr. Stupak said in a memorandum to committee members. “But they cannot quantify the benefits until the law is implemented.”

AT&T, which took a $995 million charge to reflect the impact of the health care overhaul, said it would be “evaluating prospective changes to the active and retiree health care benefits offered by the company.”

 
 
I am sure this will cause companies to hire more employees... Oh, wait, no it won't.
 
Good job congress... We don't need jobs, keep passing job killing legislation. You are good at it.


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 27 April 2010 at 9:22pm
NB4 standard liberal response to revelations concerning the negative aspects of this bill>
 
(I.e. it's okay, we'll fix it "later.")


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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 27 April 2010 at 9:59pm
Three simple ways to free health care. Reserves, National Guard....but that actually takes a commitment from the independant college types, a trade off, but it is free.


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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 27 April 2010 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

NB4 standard liberal response to revelations concerning the negative aspects of this bill>
 
(I.e. it's okay, we'll fix it "later.")


Well we're definitely not fixing it now. Wink


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 28 April 2010 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Three simple ways to free health care. Reserves, National Guard....but that actually takes a commitment from the independant college types, a trade off, but it is free.


I don't feel like fighting in a useless war, kthx?

Yes, if this was Vietnam I would be one of those new Canadians.


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Que pasa?




Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 28 April 2010 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Yes, if this was Vietnam I would be one of those new Canadians.
Whatever.


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Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 29 April 2010 at 12:15am
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Three simple ways to free health care. Reserves, National Guard....but that actually takes a commitment from the independant college types, a trade off, but it is free.


One....

Two....

Three?

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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 29 April 2010 at 12:44pm
I'm pretty sure some of you are using Jethro Bodine ciphering to come up with Obamacare being a good thing... Course what do I know, that may be the curriculum in Canada? Eh?

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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 9:41am
Remember one of those myths about Obamacare being a tax...
 
And we all know Obama promised not to raise taxes on the poor.
 
well...
 
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/health/policy/18health.html?_r=1&ref=politics - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/health/policy/18health.html?_r=1&ref=politics
 
"Changing Stance, Administration Now Defends Insurance Mandate as a Tax"
 
 
liar, liar pants on fire... Good luck finding a doctor to help you with those burns.
 
 
Hope for change only 4 months away.
 
 
 
hey, libs. OBAMACARE IS A TAX, this fact brought to you by conservatives, and now by Obama. Guess many of you were WRONG, and manipulated by the media and Obama, huh?... Will you believe it now?...
 
doubt it.


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 10:07am
The poor should have to pay for healthcare as much as anyone else.

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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 12:00pm
Hey, look. Abortion is covered under Obamacare in PA and Maryland...
 
who would have thunk?...
 
 
Guess the whole "fact" about Abortion not being covered was just that, liberal "facts"...
 
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/health-care/4065-obamacare-abortion-funding-has-begun - http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/health-care/4065-obamacare-abortion-funding-has-begun
 
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Remember one of those myths about Obamacare being a tax...
 
And we all know Obama promised not to raise taxes on the poor.
 
well...
 
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/health/policy/18health.html?_r=1&ref=politics - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/health/policy/18health.html?_r=1&ref=politics
 
"Changing Stance, Administration Now Defends Insurance Mandate as a Tax"
 
 
liar, liar pants on fire... Good luck finding a doctor to help you with those burns.
 
 
Hope for change only 4 months away.
 
 
 
hey, libs. OBAMACARE IS A TAX, this fact brought to you by conservatives, and now by Obama. Guess many of you were WRONG, and manipulated by the media and Obama, huh?... Will you believe it now?...
 
doubt it.

You really shouldn't use words that you don't understand the meaning of.


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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Hey, look. Abortion is covered under Obamacare in PA and Maryland...
 
 


This is a problem?




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Que pasa?




Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Hey, look. Abortion is covered under Obamacare in PA and Maryland...
 
 


This is a problem?


 
Only if integrity matters...
 
Guess you forgot this.
 
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthCare/health-care-obama-sign-executive-order-abortion-today/story?id=10187434 - http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthCare/health-care-obama-sign-executive-order-abortion-today/story?id=10187434
 
" http://abcnews.go.com/WN/HealthCare/obama-signs-health-care-bill-law/story?id=10178597 - President Obama today signed an http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/HealthCare/health-care-obama-house-democratic-leaders-confident-votes/story?id=10162080 - executive order banning federal funding for http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10165019 - abortion , as he had promised to anti-abortion Democrats. But even though the http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/HealthCare/ - health care bill is signed, sealed and delivered, Republicans across the country are plotting a strategy to repeal it by challenging the law's constitutionality in court. "


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Hey, look. Abortion is covered under Obamacare in PA and Maryland...
 
 


This is a problem?



I see no problem there.


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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 4:21pm
Well he signed that to shut the loud anti abortion crowd up I am sure.

I for one have no issues with abortion being covered under health insurance plans.

Neither should you Mr. Freedom from government oppression.


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Que pasa?




Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


Guess the whole "fact" about Abortion not being covered was just that, liberal "facts"...

 

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/health-care/4065-obamacare-abortion-funding-has-begun - http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/health-care/4065-obamacare-abortion-funding-has-begun

 

 
Really they are just exploiting a poorly worded executive order. Obama banned abortions on federally funded insurance that will be sold through exchanges in 2014. The high risk pools are a temporary fix to the insurance problem but are not covered by the executive order.

So yes, in the end abortions won't be covered but until 2014 they can be depending on how states setup their pools.

-------------

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.


Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Three simple ways to free health care. Reserves, National Guard....but that actually takes a commitment from the independant college types, a trade off, but it is free.
I only counted two...
 
As a once independent college type...I have great benefits and excellent health coverage for my family. It's alright that it comes out of my check. My commitment is my job. I didn't need to be guilted into military service.



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