Thoughts and Opinions - I wish I were religious.

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I wish I were religious.

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Topic: I wish I were religious.

Posted By: Hysteria
Subject: I wish I were religious.
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 7:57am

[livejournal topic] I don't think I've ever made one of these, so I feel entitled to make at least one. I tried to put my random musings into a logical, linear order for ease of read, but if I still seem to be jumping around too much, I apologize.

I have come to the realization as of late that I wish I were religious.

Before now, I have been glad that I'm an Atheist. I thought of myself as enlightened, open-minded and generally more informed than those claiming there is a super-cool dude in the sky who looks out for all of his peeps. However, due to somewhat recent existential crises of sorts, I actually do wish I had the conviction that I knew what was going to happen to me, that the aforementioned super-cool dude would set me upon the right path and that in the end, everything would work out.

This all started mid-way thought this semester and at first, it was simply http://comedians.jokes.com/mike-birbiglia/videos/mike-birbiglia---sleepy-carl - Sleepy Carl convincing me not to get up for class (it's actually funny that is what the skit is about. I remembered it as just Carl convincing him not to get up period, but then I watched the video to post it here and lol'ed). Eventually Sleepy Carl resorted to less-than-conventional tactics. Said tactics started after many late-night arguments about religion. As I lay in my bed before sleep pondering the meaning of life and various other related issues, Sleep Carl was right there taking notes. Now, a decent percentage of the time when I am supposed to get up and get ready for school, that jerk pops in and reminds me that there is no inherent meaning of life, that as far as the big picture goes, this class will not improve my quality of life and that going to class in general is just taking up time I can be skiing on french-toast-sticks. This prompts me lay there for a couple of minutes trying to decide what to do and usually I finally decide upon "screw it - I'm going skiing".

When I finally do wake up and reconsider his musings, I see the flaw in at least one of his arguments, of course - class will improve my quality of life by allowing me to get a degree which = more money. It is then that my overall existential crisis takes over and I remind myself that no, more money does not necessarily = better quality of life, since quality of life is mostly contingent upon happiness and not material belongings. This does nothing but put that page right back into Carl's book to be used once again at will.

My ongoing existential crisis also affects more than getting up for class in the morning. It pretty much penetrates every facet of school. I.e. - why do homework since it won't matter in the end? To graduate? Once I graduate, I'm just going to work a 9-5 for 40 years, retire and die. With that in mind, doing pages upon pages of my capstone economics course homework seems meaningless and pointless.

In other words, I have a new habit of not getting up due to my current existential crisis and when I am up, I don't want to do homework or go to bed on time for the same reason. It is quite the cycle of neglecting schoolwork.

To tie this all back to name of the topic; I now envy everyone who updates their statues with "<name> knows that God has a purpose for them in life and can't wait to find their calling!" and the like. It must be nice to think that there is a benevolent force guiding one's life in the best suited path and that no mater what, he will make sure your life has its best possible outcome. Hence:

I wish I were religious. [/livejournal]

Replies:

Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 8:10am

UR DOIN IT WRONG

I went through this last summer break. Why was I waking up to go to the job which I hate very much? No really, everything bad that's happened to me over the last few years is due to that job. Then one day I just woke up and realized it's a means to an end. Sure, everyone was telling me that, but I never actually accepted that. I've got goals, and I'm working towards them. Now, I can survive my job, and since I'm specifically working towards my goals, I like school now. If you're hating everything you're doing, it may be time for a reevaluation.

What are your goals? And don't think what you should do, but what you want to do. I gave up engineering and architecture (stuff I feel I'm actually very qualified to do) to be a simple machinist. I realized I enjoyed the simple life over the overstressed but well-paid formers. It's not religion, it's outlook.

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Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 8:17am

I'm religious, though not extremely.

To me, the scariest thing about atheism has always seemed to be the finality of death. There's just something about the "I/me/myself" in my personality that doesn't accept that it can just disapear.

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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo

Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 8:19am

Being religious does have its perks I guess. Like feeling that you actually have some kind of purpose instead of being faced with the ultimate meaninglessness of the universe.

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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 8:47am

In my opinion, Atheistic life is a life of Why?... That is a struggle that you will deal with forever as there is no answer.

Science is your only hope, you must focus on how much smarter you are because you believe in the facts of science, and there is nothing else. Hope is a crutch of the weak minded, one that can be put aside as you realize that you are the only thing that matters in your life. Focusing on the me, now and here, are the true ideals of atheists in their hearts.

But, that tug that comes from God and forces you to question all of this is normal, as He desires a relationship with every one of His Creations. We all question why we are here, and what does this life mean. And those questions always go back to God. (or further drive us away from him...)

It is perfectly normal for you to be thinking this way, as you have been indoctrinated (secular world view) to believe in science alone. Personally, I think science is the method that God put in place to drive us to a knowledge of Him. (Christian world view)

Lets look at that for a minute.

Life comes from life. We all know that to be true, and yet when we use a atheistic approach to how the world started, this is a serious problem.

Yet, if we look at it from a God perspective, it makes perfect sense.

We have natural laws, (science) which we see daily, these are the laws of science, which we can test and measure.

Then we have supernatural laws, (God) this is a different category, not able to be tested and measured, as they are examples of the power of God.

Creation of our world, each of us having a soul, the size of space, ect.

Many atheists believe in this stuff, but they have different names for this. Look at the way they believe in UFO's and other supernatural experiences. They can't explain them, but many believe this is where our life on earth came from...

So it is the same belief just putting a different god in place to base their trust.

Think about a pink elephant.

Do you have the picture in your mind? Is the trunk up or down? And what color pink is it?

Now, if we take our best scientists, can they view what you are seeing?

Nope.

Can the best brain surgeon cut your head open and divide your brain and that pink elephant will be in there?

Nope.

Does the fact that only you know what that pink elephant looks like matter...

If we just evolved, and this is it... Then no, it doesn't matter, as it is just a manipulation from your DNA causing you to think this, and your only goal should be to reproduce as many pink thinking elephant people as you can in your life...

Or God Created you in a way to think, and the fact that you can ponder things like this is to draw you closer to the supernatural being that Created you in His image, for the glory of Him.

Psalm 19

A psalm of David.

¹ The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

² Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.

³ There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard. #fen-NIV-14172a - a ]'>[ #fen-NIV-14172a - a ]

⁴ Their voice #fen-NIV-14173b - b ]'>[ #fen-NIV-14173b - b ] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,

⁵ which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.

⁶ It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is hidden from its heat.

⁷ The law of the LORD is perfect,
       reviving the soul.
       The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
       making wise the simple.

⁸ The precepts of the LORD are right,
       giving joy to the heart.
       The commands of the LORD are radiant,
       giving light to the eyes.

⁹ The fear of the LORD is pure,
       enduring forever.
       The ordinances of the LORD are sure
       and altogether righteous.

¹⁰ They are more precious than gold,
       than much pure gold;
       they are sweeter than honey,
       than honey from the comb.

¹¹ By them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.

¹² Who can discern his errors?
Forgive my hidden faults.

¹³ Keep your servant also from willful sins;
       may they not rule over me.
       Then will I be blameless,
       innocent of great transgression.

¹⁴ May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

The NYT had an interesting article on this exact topic today... weird?. I think not.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/does-reason-know-what-it-is-missing/ - http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/does-reason-know-what-it-is-missing/

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They tremble at my name...

Posted By: JohnnyHopper
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 9:13am

What you need is a hot girl who wants:

1 - You
2 - Shelter
3 - Your babies
4 - Food for her slightly fatter self and her babies
5 - Gobs of useless crap that only money, which is painfully extracted from crushing your soul in ceasless toil while waiting for the sweet release of death, can provide.

See, life is easy. Besides, no matter how hard you try or how much you worry, no one gets out of here alive.

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My shoes of peace have steel toes.

Posted By: *Stealth*
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 9:36am

JohnnyHopper wrote:

What you need a hot girl who wants:

1 - You
2 - Shelter
3 - Your babies
4 - Food for her slightly fatter self and her babies
5 - Gobs of useless crap that only money, which is painfully extracted from crushing your soul in ceasless toil while waiting for the sweet release of death, can provide.

See, life is easy. Besides, no matter how hard you try or how much you worry, no one gets out of here alive.

Ah, the american dream.

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WHO says eating pork is safe, but Mexicans have even cut back on their beloved greasy pork tacos. - MSNBC on the Swine Flu

Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 11:37am

Sounds like you may actually be dealing with depression and/or school burnout.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.

Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 11:38am

You're blaming being lazy and not wanting to do homework on your existential crisis? Or....discipline?

Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 11:39am

FreeEnterprise wrote:

In my opinion, Atheistic life is a life of Why?... That is a struggle that you will deal with forever as there is no answer.

"The opposite of faith isn't doubt. It's certainty."

Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 11:49am

I, for one, believe in Darwinism and God. Go me!

Oddly enough, Darwin was an extremely religious man.

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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 12:00pm

SSOK wrote:

I, for one, believe in Darwinism and God. Go me!

Oddly enough, Darwin was an extremely religious man.

At first yes. He was actually in training to become a member of the clergy when he made his trip on the Beagle. He slowly lost his religiousness however. He did try and keep it rather low key until much later on in his life because his wife was a very devoutly religious woman.

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Forum Vice President

RIP T&O Forum

Posted By: FROG MAN
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 12:06pm

It sounds like you dont like your school.

Even if I was atheist I get joy and improve my quality of life just learning new things everyday. Its exciting and I love it. Maybe economics doesn't interest you and you went into it for the wrong reasons.

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<1 meg sig = bad>

Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 4:14pm

Find a copy a "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl and read it, it touches on a lot of the feelings you're talking about. Very famous book.

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Posted By: Tical3.0
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 4:16pm

I wish I was the Queen of England

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I ♣ hippies.

Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 4:19pm

Think of it this way: Having the ability to finish your program and get your degree may set you up for a better job in the future. Having a better job may set you up for being better able to enjoy your liesure activities. Sure it doesn't really matter in the end, but sadly we need money (well, most of us) to live, and if something you enjoy is skiing, money generally makes that more achievable.

Would you like to be able to hit the alps some day and just take it all in from the top of the hill? You'll be more likely to do so if you can manage to afford the airfare.

That said, theres nothing wrong with skipping the occasional class for a powder day, you have to stay sane, and you need to have some fun. Enjoy what you have, not what you don't. Realize what sort of position you're in: By even being a student in post secondary school you're better off than MANY people. Appreciate that and all that has come with it. Homework is a small price to pay for the people you've met and experiences you've had. They're forming who you are.

Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 4:23pm

That's why I love philosophy. Aristotle in particular had some interesting view on the existence of man.

I've never really felt that I need to explain my own existence. Like someone else said, it's the afterlife that really gets to me.

Posted By: Hysteria
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 4:42pm

oldpbnoob wrote:

Sounds like you may actually be dealing with depression and/or school burnout.

Depression, maybe. Burnout, probably. I've been in school for ~ 16 years straight. Perhaps I am using my beliefs to rationalize my college senioritis.

choopie911 wrote:

You're blaming being lazy and not wanting to do homework on your existential crisis? Or....discipline?

Yep. I would be the first to call it laziness if my thought process went something like "I should do 'x', however, 'x' is boring, therefore I will slack off instead", rather than something like "I should do 'x', which will pay off somewhat in the short-run, much more so in the long-run, but in the extreme long-run it won't matter if I do it at all so why bother?"

FROG MAN wrote:

It sounds like you dont like your school.

Even if I was atheist I get joy and improve my quality of life just learning new things everyday. Its exciting and I love it. Maybe economics doesn't interest you and you went into it for the wrong reasons.

Econ is one of the only things that I have actually enjoyed doing in college. While I enjoy it and learn new things almost every day, it has no impact on my quality of life.

choopie911 wrote:

Think of it this way: Having the ability to finish your program and get your degree may set you up for a better job in the future. Having a better job may set you up for being better able to enjoy your liesure activities. Sure it doesn't really matter in the end, but sadly we need money (well, most of us) to live, and if something you enjoy is skiing, money generally makes that more achievable.

Would you like to be able to hit the alps some day and just take it all in from the top of the hill? You'll be more likely to do so if you can manage to afford the airfare.

That said, theres nothing wrong with skipping the occasional class for a powder day, you have to stay sane, and you need to have some fun. Enjoy what you have, not what you don't. Realize what sort of position you're in: By even being a student in post secondary school you're better off than MANY people. Appreciate that and all that has come with it. Homework is a small price to pay for the people you've met and experiences you've had. They're forming who you are.

I have thought of it that way, that is how I've made it this far. I realize that more money = more games, guns and girls, but when the overall meaning of life comes into play, games guns and girls seem like extraneous wants, rather than needs that directly affect me in the end.

This may also be a problem I have with reaching for long-term goals. For instance, I would very much love a Maserati. Therefore the logical path should take is to do as well as possible in undergrad, go to grad school, get awesome job, get car. However, it's just so far away and depends on too many variables, so if I think "homework", the last thing on my mind is "Maserati".

Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 4:43pm

Life can be crap, but what else are you gonna do?

Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 4:45pm

scotchyscotch wrote:

Life can be crap, but what else are you gonna do?

INB4 UR MOM

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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo

Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 5:09pm

IN AFTER FE RANTS ABOUT INDOCTRINATION AND TRIES TO CONVERT THE FORUM

Anyway, I know exactly how you feel as I feel it right now. I consider myself Atheist and I too have trouble motivating myself to do schoolwork lately. However, I think that's due to being stuck in school doing what feels like merely busy-work for 20 consecutive years. I'm burned out and just tired of doing what feels like pointless work. Obviously I have to do it to get my degree but my current boss couldn't care less about my school assignments and neither could I. I know what I need to know to do my job well and, in my experience, I've learned more useful things outside of school on my own time. I want it to end immediately but I still have finals and a handful of somewhat substantial assignments left before I graduate in May. It seems silly to be stressing over this when it's so close to finishing but I can't help it. I've been burned out from school since about sophomore year of college and have pushed myself even further since then but I'm really hitting my limit now. Perhaps you're in the same situation.

I have given a lot of thought to all the more religious stuff you mentioned too but I've come to the conclusion that it just doesn't really matter where we came from or what happens when we die. What we know for certain is that you're born and you die but what happens in between is up to you. I choose to enjoy that time and just let nature take its course. If you can't control your mortality then why stress over it? I take it as a challenge to enjoy myself more in the time I'm alive than those around me can in their lifetime. As somebody else said, it's all about your outlook on life. If you can't change the fact that you see the absence of a greater being as a gloomy miserable thing then becoming religious might be the only way to correct that. For me, I don't believe and frankly don't need any greater being.

And FE, we get it, you're religious. That said, your views of Atheists are as far from the truth as a KKK member's views of non-whites and you're just as resistant to reason. I won't say you're wrong about all of them but to say you're right about all of them (or even the majority) is something you can't possibly claim to be true.

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Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey

Me: But only if they're hungary

Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth

Posted By: FROG MAN
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 5:36pm

I know if I wasn't christian I would be severely depressed. I am not sure what that says about me, but at least I will admit it. Everything I do in life is for Christ. Knowing everything I learn in school allows me to better understand Gods creation gives me a great joy. I no longer feel the need to constantly defend my views, and I am very at peace with my religion. You said being athiest has always made you feel as if you were open minded and more enlightened then that religious people. Well, try to open your mind to a modern Christian or even agnostic. Embrace the fact that maybe a guy flying in the sky is not much more insane then nothing exploding into everything, or even that the basis of all matter and existence is still unknown. If there is something larger then me and you out there, don't feel like your turning your back on science by looking into it. It took an insane man to suggest that time is relative, and even more insane man to suggest that very understanding of matter wasn't even in the ball park of reality. Thinking there is an omnipotent god that has a larger plan for you may be crazy, but if may just improve your quality life and turn out to be true.

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<1 meg sig = bad>

Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 6:08pm

Darur wrote:

Find a copy a "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl and read it, it touches on a lot of the feelings you're talking about. Very famous book.

Since I suspect this is being dismissed as another self-help book (which it isn't; well, not really), I'll go ahead and give a bit of a synopsis: Viktor Frankl was a psychologist who was in the concentration camps. The book talks about how he and others survived, and the idea of finding meaning in situations where there seems to be none.

A quote from it which relates a little to what you're talking about:

It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual.

I went through a bit of a rough patch last semester and a friend suggested it to me. That book gave me a lot of perspective. Regardless of if you believe in God or not, you can finding meaning in your life by living up to your full potential, by answering to life and it's challenges. Give it a shot.

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Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 6:08pm

Yay philosophy!

Hysteria, it sounds as if you are going through a bout of nihilism; this can be extremely dangerous for your personal well-being as nihilists, with their perspectives being what they are on life, the universe, and everything else, find it more appealing to deal with the 'nothing' that will inevitably result from everything they do as soon as possible rather than pour a lifetime of effort into something and achieve the same thing.

PM me if you want more perspective, counter-arguments to nihilism to get motivation back, or even just life philosophies that are more utilitarian and supported with stronger arguments. The sort of outlook on life you describe has tugged at me from time to time, but I can never find sufficient reason to succumb to the despair you describe. So srsly, PM me if you want to have a back-and-forth conversation with someone who knows philosophy and has been there (...ish) before.

And just a side-note for any Christians: Nihilism is not exclusive to those of us who lack a set of theistic beliefs (and is often not associated with theistic beliefs at all, but rather purely metaphysical or cosmological beliefs), and it is not at all true that atheists must necessarily form nihilistic conclusions about life if we do not live to serve God.

Hysteria wrote:

rather than something like "I should do 'x', which will pay off somewhat in the short-run, much more so in the long-run, but in the extreme long-run it won't matter if I do it at all so why bother?"

That is a TERRIBLE argument, and is nowhere near reason enough to justify not acting.

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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 6:12pm

Why does doing your homework and all that stuff matter?

We have a limited time here. An 80 year lifespan is rather short. You can either enjoy it while it lasts or let it waste away. If doing well in college will help you do what you want in life, then that's the reason to do your best.

Think of the far future... you as an old man, swapping stories with other old folk in front of an old folk's hangout. You can be the guy who wasted his opportunity by hanging out all day, seeking cheap thrills to pass the time by... or you can be the guy who traveled the world, done exotic things, made many babies, and have tales of adventure to tell, or you can be any person in between. When all those old folk are on those deathbeds, the guy with the full life behind him will fade into death with tears of joy, while the slacker will close his eyes with tears of sorrow streaming down his cheeks.

You don't have to get through college to be happy, but if it is the gateway for you to do all you desire in life, it would be to your benefit to do well. Don't be the guy who lived an empty life, waiting for heaven. He's kidding himself.

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Posted By: ThatGuitarGuy
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 6:13pm

We're here for a good time, not a long time. - Colin McRae

Edit: My post didn't make sense taken out of context. Tolgak's post made me think of that quote.

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Skillet: I've never been terribly fond of the look of a vagina

Posted By: jerseypaint
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 6:52pm

Who cares what happens when you die? You're alive now, might as well make the most of it.

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Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 7:05pm

mod98commando wrote:

What we know for certain is that you're born and you die

Actually, strictly speaking, even that much is up for debate. But that is some technical philosophy that, even according to the founders of the thought-movement, is generally useless regarding everyday life.

Still cool enough for Gatyr to want to bring it up though, son.

If you can't control your mortality then why stress over it?

Generally speaking, this is an excellent point, and Stoicism is a large part in the set of philosophies that has kept nihilistic thoughts at bay.

If you can't change the fact that you see the absence of a greater being as a gloomy miserable thing then becoming religious might be the only way to correct that.

Nah. If it is as easy as accepting an idea, there are things to consider that are leaps and bounds ahead of just accepting Jesus Chrahst as yer lord an' say-vyer.

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Posted By: Tical3.0
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 10:08pm

You guy's will never guess what happened. I was walking over to the store today and as I was crossing the street I got smoked by a geo metro and my leg snapped right in half. I sat there on the ground and pray'd and all of a sudden my bones magicly fused back together. Even my friend who just so happens to be a doctor was there and seen the whole thing.

Peace Midnightshift begins.

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I ♣ hippies.

Posted By: ThatGuitarGuy
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 10:15pm

Did you feel a great warmth, and did your leg glow?

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Skillet: I've never been terribly fond of the look of a vagina

Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 10:23pm

Sounds like senioritus + quarter-life crisis. Put the coffee maker on a timer to give you incentive to get out of bed, force yourself to start doing pushups the second you're out of bed. It's good to start the day with endorphines. It will snap you awake real quick so you wont be bothered by wishing that nice dream you were just having was real. Set goals for your day. The faster you accept the pointlessness of your situation(life) and the fact that you're a meat-robot you can concentrate on what really matters and take joy in the fact that you're a self-aware meat robot and you can decide what you want to do. You gives a crap if your actions and deeds are not everlasting? Try drawing something great, then chuck it in a fire. Sure it's gone, but you should still have the self-satisfaction of knowing you did it. Ask yourself about your long term goals, if your current actions are in the pursuit of them, focus on what's in front of your. Doubts at the end of college are normal, who the hell knows if you'll actually do what you've trained to do? The options for both success and failure are limitless, and even if you fail hard, you should at least be able to afford a 40oz and a cheap fishing rod, who needs anything else?

Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 10:47pm

ThatGuitarGuy wrote:

Did you feel a great warmth, and did your leg glow?

Good call, break your arm and wait for magic jesus to fix it. I guarantee it works, I know a guy who knows jesus's friend.

Posted By: pb125
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 11:31pm

Beind dead is like not being born yet.

Sucks

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Posted By: Hysteria
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 11:42pm

Thanks for all the replies guys, the good, the bad and even the pointless. I do realize that I have to just suck it up and deal with life just like everyone else, but I guess I was just feeling particularly emo and wanted to vent/talk to someone (or something) and my friends aren't nearly as insightful as the forum as a whole so I came here.

Darur wrote:

Since I suspect this is being dismissed as another self-help book

It actually wasn't. I immediately looked it up at Amazon and read about it. It piqued my interest and I plan on ordering it sometime soon.

Gatyr wrote:

That is a TERRIBLE argument, and is nowhere near reason enough to justify not acting.

I never said those thoughts were the most rational and justified of thoughts, lol. As far as PMing you goes, I'll probably take you up on that, thanks.

Tolgak wrote:

Why does doing your homework and all that stuff matter?

We have a limited time here. An 80 year lifespan is rather short. You can either enjoy it while it lasts or let it waste away. If doing well in college will help you do what you want in life, then that's the reason to do your best.

Think of the far future... you as an old man, swapping stories with other old folk in front of an old folk's hangout. You can be the guy who wasted his opportunity by hanging out all day, seeking cheap thrills to pass the time by... or you can be the guy who traveled the world, done exotic things, made many babies, and have tales of adventure to tell, or you can be any person in between. When all those old folk are on those deathbeds, the guy with the full life behind him will fade into death with tears of joy, while the slacker will close his eyes with tears of sorrow streaming down his cheeks.

You don't have to get through college to be happy, but if it is the gateway for you to do all you desire in life, it would be to your benefit to do well. Don't be the guy who lived an empty life, waiting for heaven. He's kidding himself.

Homework and that stuff mattered because that is what is being directly affected by these thoughts right now. If it were effecting relationships, a jobs, et cetera, I probably would have mentioned that as well as, or in place of what I brought up.

And when I do find the motivation to do what I'm supposed to, it is sometimes influenced by the points you made. My thoughts and actions seem to be quite cyclical, but the stuff I brought up has been taking up a larger and larger part of that cycle as of late, which is why I decided to make a topic about it.

Gatyr wrote:

mod98commando wrote:

[QUOTE]If you can't change the fact that you see the absence of a greater being as a gloomy miserable thing then becoming religious might be the only way to correct that.

Nah. If it is as easy as accepting an idea, there are things to consider that are leaps and bounds ahead of just accepting Jesus Chrahst as yer lord an' say-vyer.

This. I used to be just as a devout Christian as I am now a steadfast Atheist. In fact, the latter was brought on by the former, so I can not see myself going back now, even if I wanted to with all my being. I just can't accept what is necessary for one to accept in order to believe in something such as religion.

Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 11:51pm

Hysteria wrote:

I never said those thoughts were the most rational and justified of thoughts, lol. As far as PMing you goes, I'll probably take you up on that, thanks.

Fair enough, and please do. It would be nice to put what I've read to some direct use.

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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 12:06am

Actually, if you guys don't mind. Care to share this conversation? I'm both very interested, and have experienced some of the same feelings as Hysteria, so I'd like to hear what you got for me/us on this one Gatyr

EDIT: Altho, I never did wish to be religious again, mainly because I felt the exact same things when I was religious. As mentioned, its more about perspective than spirituality.

-------------
"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl

Forum Vice President

RIP T&O Forum

Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 12:12am

Also yeah...because imaginary friends > real friends.

Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 12:29am

Basically this thread should be titled I wish I were motivated.

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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 7:56am

In "the god delusion" Dawkins (a renouned evolution scientist and atheist) shows how he will indoctrinate you to atheism by reading his book (pg 5).

His stance is that belief in God is a pernicious delusion (pg 31).

What is so interesting about his book (sold 500,000 copies so far) is that it is used in many colleges as talking points, and yet the stratagies he uses to "debunk" belief in God are old. Very old.

For example, he picks the 5 proofs of God by Thomas Aquinas as his big breakthrough by showing how they can be picked apart.

The only problem is he is picking theory of a guy who lived over 800 years ago.

Why doesn't he go after a current philosophy instead of one 800 years ago? These proofs have been updated based on further thought since then...

Well, because it is easier to build a irrelevant strawman, and then you can knock it over and say "see"...

I think it would have been interesting to hear his rebuttle to the "nothing comes from nothing" causation argument.

1. Whatever begins to exist must have a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. The universe had a cause.

Philosophy is something that will always pry at your mind, as there are questions like the one I posted above, that force you to think about why we are here on this planet, and what caused all of this to happen.

If it truely doesn't matter, than life is meaningless. And I can point to thousands of Atheists who have ended their lives because of this hopelessness...

pg 50 is another interesting quote, "The existance of God is a scientific hypothesis like any other... God's existance can be proven or disproven by laws of science."...

That is only true if science is the only reality. And I don't see the natural world as the only world in existance.

We know that on this natural world there is nothing that can create everything. And we know that this Creation we see is too complex with so much different types of life, that something must have caused all of this.

So logically, there must have been a Creator.

To think otherwise, will just give you a headache, as over time it will grind on your mind because you know it to be true.

This Creator isn't part of our natural world, he doesn't follow the laws of science, (otherwise how could the first life start?...)

This is because people like Dawkins are so narrow minded that they can only see the "natural" world. Therefore to them, the natural world is all there is. If science can't explain it... Then it doesn't exist.

I already talked about how that doesn't fit even in his mind. Are thoughts real?... To Dawkins they must not be, as that thought can't be studied or examined, as it is in the creators mind.

As you guys pointed out, how do you explain supernatural examples? We see them often, with healings, and the size of space, and the massive amount of life on our planet, that has more diversity than evolution could ever achieve in trillions of years...

Now, that concept seems far fetched, but is it really? Lets look at electrons. Can we see electrons?...

Nope.

Do they exist?...

yes.

Why?

Because we see the effects of the electrons so we assume they are there, as we know something is making the results we see... Which is the same way we see Gods hand in our lives (supernaturally).

Throwing out the existance of God because we can't see him would be the same as throwing out any of the concepts in science that we can't see, but know they are there.

Dawkins assertion "The universe is nothing but a collection of atoms in motions, human beings are simply machines for propogating DNA, and the propogation of DNA is a self sustaining process. It is every living objects SOLE reason for living."...

and

"Science is the only way to arrive at truth"... (what scientific experiment proves this?)

"There is no absolute truth"... (is that true?)

And Carl Sagan wasn't much more optimistic...

"the cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be". (where is the scientific proof for this?)

I wonder what he thinks today?

-------------
They tremble at my name...

Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 9:51am

FreeEnterprise wrote:

In "the god delusion" Dawkins (a renouned evolution scientist and atheist) shows how he will indoctrinate you to atheism by reading his book (pg 5).

His stance is that belief in God is a pernicious delusion (pg 31).

What is so interesting about his book (sold 500,000 copies so far) is that it is used in many colleges as talking points, and yet the stratagies he uses to "debunk" belief in God are old. Very old.

For example, he picks the 5 proofs of God by Thomas Aquinas as his big breakthrough by showing how they can be picked apart.

The only problem is he is picking theory of a guy who lived over 800 years ago.

Why doesn't he go after a current philosophy instead of one 800 years ago? These proofs have been updated based on further thought since then...

Well, because it is easier to build a irrelevant strawman, and then you can knock it over and say "see"...

I actually own this book, and I lol'd hard when you said that he was going to indoctrinate people with it. Dawkins isn't known for using very simplistic language, very few young people will be able to make it through the God Delusion. it's kind of hard to indoctrinate people who are already able to think critically for themselves. (fortells FE attacking us by questioning our critical thinking skills) Also, while I doubt you have actually read the book yourself, Dawkins explains all of his arguments in the book, it's not simply a case of "Well, obviously you are wrong, because I'm smarter than you! Plus, I'm English, and you're a fat American!"

I think it would have been interesting to hear his rebuttal to the "nothing comes from nothing" causation argument.

1. Whatever begins to exist must have a cause.

Quantum Mechanics says you're wrong.

2. The universe began to exist.

If it's possible god existed forever, why is it impossible for the universe to have existed forever? Or the singularity that started the big bang? etc.

3. The universe had a cause.

Again, Quantum Mechanics shows what begins to exist does not always have a cause. Richard Dawkins is not a particle physicist. Nor is he a physicist of any kind, I do not expect him to teach about a field that he is unfamiliar with.

If it truly doesn't matter, than life is meaningless. And I can point to thousands of Atheists who have ended their lives because of this hopelessness...

I can point to millions of people who have had their lives ended by Christians who didn't think it was meaningless. Whats your point with this?

pg 50 is another interesting quote, "The existence of God is a scientific hypothesis like any other... God's existence can be proven or disproven by laws of science."...

That is only true if science is the only reality. And I don't see the natural world as the only world in existance.

Until we have evidence of some kind of other world, we will continue assuming this is the only one. You keep forgetting how science is (or at least supposed to be) based purely on facts, not wants.

Again, Quantum mechanics disagrees with you.

We do not know Creation is too complex for such different types of life, evolution explains it all quite simply and beautifully, you just refuse to look at it with an open mind.

So logically, there must have been a Creator.

Fail, sir.

To think otherwise, will just give you a headache, as over time it will grind on your mind because you know it to be true.

This Creator isn't part of our natural world, he doesn't follow the laws of science, (otherwise how could the first life start?...)

We've hypothesized about this in previous threads as well. You're simply ignoring the arguments made to you, when you never refuted them.

I already talked about how that doesn't fit even in his mind. Are thoughts real?... To Dawkins they must not be, as that thought can't be studied or examined, as it is in the creators mind.

No, if we cannot find any evidence what so ever for it, then it probably doesn't exist. What you think of as evidence for god, is not, as I will explain shortly.

As you guys pointed out, how do you explain supernatural examples? We see them often, with healing, and the size of space, and the massive amount of life on our planet, that has more diversity than evolution could ever achieve in trillions of years...

Healing happen naturally, they are not supernatural phenomena. It is not a miracle that cancer patients get better, or that people live through car wrecks. Some people get lucky, and the teams of doctors and nurses helping most of them are a little bonus factor. I realize this is an over-used argument, but it seems fitting. If god was behind miraculous healing, we would see amputees magically regrow limbs, presumably just as often as we cancer patients healed. We don't.

The big bang and inflation are probably better theories to stick with, considering we actually have evidence for those.

Again, evolution can do that, whether you want it to or not.

Now, that concept seems far fetched, but is it really? Lets look at electrons. Can we see electrons?...

Nope.

Do they exist?...

yes.

Why?

Because we see the effects of the electrons so we assume they are there, as we know something is making the results we see... Which is the same way we see Gods hand in our lives (supernaturally).

Throwing out the existence of God because we can't see him would be the same as throwing out any of the concepts in science that we can't see, but know they are there.

You're making a fundamental mistake. Right, we can see the effect of electrons. You have yet to provide any real substantial proof that we can see the effect of God.

and

"Science is the only way to arrive at truth"... (what scientific experiment proves this?)

"There is no absolute truth"... (is that true?)

And Carl Sagan wasn't much more optimistic...

"the cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be". (where is the scientific proof for this?)

I wonder what he thinks today?

I'm curious what this had to do with the rest of your post? Seems a little bit random.

-------------
"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl

Forum Vice President

RIP T&O Forum

Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 11:18am

__sneaky__ wrote:

FreeEnterprise wrote:

In "the god delusion" Dawkins (a renouned evolution scientist and atheist) shows how he will indoctrinate you to atheism by reading his book (pg 5).

His stance is that belief in God is a pernicious delusion (pg 31).

What is so interesting about his book (sold 500,000 copies so far) is that it is used in many colleges as talking points, and yet the stratagies he uses to "debunk" belief in God are old. Very old.

For example, he picks the 5 proofs of God by Thomas Aquinas as his big breakthrough by showing how they can be picked apart.

The only problem is he is picking theory of a guy who lived over 800 years ago.

Why doesn't he go after a current philosophy instead of one 800 years ago? These proofs have been updated based on further thought since then...

Well, because it is easier to build a irrelevant strawman, and then you can knock it over and say "see"...

"You can not consider yourself educated, unless you read books"...

ahm... I think you need to re-read his book... Did you know the title is "the god delusion"?... By the name alone it is clear he is going to manipulate the reader into indoctrination of scientism. But, with your thinking skills, I'm sure you realize that...

He does a pretty good job in his book of namecalling as you cited... And the fact that he constantly grooms his pedigree and knowledge did get annoying, especially when he was using such weak, closed minded arguments.

I think it would have been interesting to hear his rebuttal to the "nothing comes from nothing" causation argument.

1. Whatever begins to exist must have a cause.

Quantum Mechanics says you're wrong.

What exactly is this ^ ? That isn't a "point", but a general statement with no meaning. Of course quantum mechanics is complex, and difficult to shorten down to 2 + 2 = 4. (what is the formula for a wavelength of varying size and breadth). Again, this shows proof of a Creator much more advanced than "chance". As we just now are realizing the complexity of our world... One that just happened... by itself... over billions of years...

2. The universe began to exist.

If it's possible god existed forever, why is it impossible for the universe to have existed forever? Or the singularity that started the big bang? etc.

You are mixing up your categories.

Natural - science, earth, space, time, people, plants, things.

Supernatural - God, truth, thought

God doesn't abide by time, that is something tied to this plane of existance. God Created time, universe, earth, your soul, and mine.

You classified it wrong, which is the same problem Dawkins has, as he wants everything to fit into a tidy box of science, only one category... when clearly more than one category exists.

But, who Created that science with those structures?... That study is philosophy.

3. The universe had a cause.

The way he touts how intelligent he is, while every "faith based" person is such a fool... (hmm, another field he is unfamiliar with) I think that disproves your point?...

If it truly doesn't matter, than life is meaningless. And I can point to thousands of Atheists who have ended their lives because of this hopelessness...

I can point to millions of people who have had their lives ended by Christians who didn't think it was meaningless. Whats your point with this?

strawman.

My point is that atheists by definition have no hope for anything other than this life. Leaving them with a very short temporary viewpoint that is often unfulfilling, resulting in frustration that ends up taking a toll on their mind, and many times their lives.

It is really sad.

But, typical if you look at it from a Christian world view.

For example. Play along with me now, as this example, I will need you to open your mind to a possibility.

Say there is a God, and there is also a devil.

God is good, devil is bad.

Devils goal, to get you on his side.

God's goal, to have you choose Him, and accept Him as your Savior.

Then we have the world we live in. With countless examples of Gods work (same as those electrons, you can't touch it, but you know it is there).

The devil tries his best to make you believe all of that stuff is bunk. Made up. It is even dillusional. Anyone who believes that stuff is silly, and should be called names. (sound familiar?)

So, over time, people start to follow this belief that there is no God. And what happens? More people on the devils side.

They aren't bad people, they are just confused. (the father of lies? remember) More souls added to his side...

I heard a proverb that applies to this thought

"The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward to present his case"...

So, if there is a battle of souls (which according to Dawkins don't exist, hmm, that is convenient). Then ignoring the prompting from God to think about this stuff, is part of the tactic used to keep you away from God.

pg 50 is another interesting quote, "The existence of God is a scientific hypothesis like any other... God's existence can be proven or disproven by laws of science."...

That is only true if science is the only reality. And I don't see the natural world as the only world in existance.

Until we have evidence of some kind of other world, we will continue assuming this is the only one. You keep forgetting how science is (or at least supposed to be) based purely on facts, not wants.

Again, Quantum mechanics disagrees with you.

We do not know Creation is too complex for such different types of life, evolution explains it all quite simply and beautifully, you just refuse to look at it with an open mind.

open mind... Really?

So logically, there must have been a Creator.

Fail, sir.

...

To think otherwise, will just give you a headache, as over time it will grind on your mind because you know it to be true.

This Creator isn't part of our natural world, he doesn't follow the laws of science, (otherwise how could the first life start?...)

We've hypothesized about this in previous threads as well. You're simply ignoring the arguments made to you, when you never refuted them.

I haven't seen an argument from you yet... But, I would be glad to refute it if you present one.

According to Aristotle, there are four types of arguments.

1. Demostrative

2. Dialectical

3. Rhetorical reasoning

4. Poetic reasoning

I have used all of these in my discussion so far.

"Fail, sir" isn't an example of one of these argument types.

I already talked about how that doesn't fit even in his mind. Are thoughts real?... To Dawkins they must not be, as that thought can't be studied or examined, as it is in the creators mind.

No, if we cannot find any evidence what so ever for it, then it probably doesn't exist. What you think of as evidence for god, is not, as I will explain shortly.

So, if there is no supernatural, then at what point does a fetus become alive? If the soul doesn't exist... Then wouldn't any fetus that is viable outside the womb be "alive" under your example? As they could "get lucky" and survive. I have a friend who's son was born 5 months premature, he is doing pretty well considering (just turned 10).

So should we ban abortion because it is killing a viable fetus? Or are they just unlucky...

The big bang and inflation are probably better theories to stick with, considering we actually have evidence for those.

We also have evidence of Creation, and a young earth, but lets not be open minded about that.

Again, evolution can do that, whether you want it to or not.

How exactly did the bombardier beetle "evolve"... without killing itself?

Now, that concept seems far fetched, but is it really? Lets look at electrons. Can we see electrons?...

Nope.

Do they exist?...

yes.

Why?

Because we see the effects of the electrons so we assume they are there, as we know something is making the results we see... Which is the same way we see Gods hand in our lives (supernaturally).

Throwing out the existence of God because we can't see him would be the same as throwing out any of the concepts in science that we can't see, but know they are there.

You're making a fundamental mistake. Right, we can see the effect of electrons. You have yet to provide any real substantial proof that we can see the effect of God.

Actually, I have presented tons, and people with open minds will see my examples have merit. Just because you choose to ignore these examples doesn't make them not exist.

How did life begin?

and

"Science is the only way to arrive at truth"... (what scientific experiment proves this?)

"There is no absolute truth"... (is that true?)

And Carl Sagan wasn't much more optimistic...

"the cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be". (where is the scientific proof for this?)

I wonder what he thinks today?

I'm curious what this had to do with the rest of your post? Seems a little bit random.

Not random at all, as both Sagan, and Dawkins were devout atheists.

I say were, because one has died, and I'm sure he now has a different perspective. But, in the end we all get to choose for ourselves, and once that choice is made, and we check out... It is finished. Dawkins still can change his mind, and hopefully he will become more open minded as he grows older.

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They tremble at my name...

Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 12:29pm

If there is only science, then how do you explain near death experiences? Where people die, and see things, and then are brought back to life...

Or does that "not happen" either?

I'm sure you wouldn't take that road, since it is very close minded...

this one is pretty good, and from NPR...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104397005 - http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104397005

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=near+death+experience+stories&aq=1&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=near+death+&gs_rfai=&fp=467c3568f2eec009 - http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=near+death+experience+stories&aq=1&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=near+death+&gs_rfai=&fp=467c3568f2eec009 http://www.bibleprobe.com/nde.htm -

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They tremble at my name...

Posted By: Tical3.0
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 12:46pm

It seems all your posts seem to be structured it bait people in to argument, atleast thats what It looks like to me. So I cut down this one quote to offer up a reason as to why people "see things" Right before death and or through near death experiences.... If this is counter productive to what you are getting at my bad. I read it wrong

FreeEnterprise wrote:

then how do you explain near death experiences? Where people die, and see things,

I think this lil puddy has something to do with people seeing things right before they die/near death blah blha blah

It's DMT -dimethyltryptamine

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I ♣ hippies.

Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 1:04pm

FreeEnterprise wrote:

If there is only science, then how do you explain near death experiences? Where people die, and see things, and then are brought back to life...

Or does that "not happen" either?

I'm sure you wouldn't take that road, since it is very close minded...

this one is pretty good, and from NPR...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104397005 - http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104397005

I dreamt I was driving a car through London and it took off. I flew around then crashed.

It did not happen.

Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 1:27pm

Tical3.0 wrote:

FreeEnterprise wrote:

then how do you explain near death experiences? Where people die, and see things,

I think this lil puddy has something to do with people seeing things right before they die/near death blah blha blah

It's DMT -dimethyltryptamine

Inb4 Tical is called a stoned slacker because FE doesn't understand that DMT is produced naturally in our bodies.

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Posted By: Hysteria
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 1:36pm

In order to cut down on the quoting of massive blocks to text, I'm going to edit the quote down to what I am directly replying to.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

"You can not consider yourself educated, unless you read books"...

What does the name have to do with anything? He could have named it "LOOK AT MY HORSE, MY HORSE IS AMAZING" for all intents and purposes, the content would still be the same. "The God Delusion" is simply a title that informs the potential reader what the books is about. Not to mention the marketing opportunities that such a title creates.

Furthermore, indoctrination, as sneaky already pointed out, is an act primarily limited to those in the formative stages of development. As he also pointed out, such potential targets would be hard pressed to get through the book alone, much less make sense of it and appreciate its worth and accept it as fact. Making a case for something you believe in =/= indoctrination.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

What exactly is this ^ ? That isn't a "point", but a general statement with no meaning. Of course quantum mechanics is complex, and difficult to shorten down to 2 + 2 = 4. (what is the formula for a wavelength of varying size and breadth). Again, this shows proof of a Creator much more advanced than "chance". As we just now are realizing the complexity of our world... One that just happened... by itself... over billions of years...

The fact that you are so hasty to attribute absolutely everything to your Creator without even a second thought is a horrible logical fallacy. In the end, people like you will be the only ones left adhering to your doctrine when we can fully explain the beginning of the universe, abogenesis and everything else touted as "proof" of a divine creator.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

sneaky wrote:

If it's possible god existed forever, why is it impossible for the universe to have existed forever? Or the singularity that started the big bang? etc.

You are mixing up your categories.

Natural - science, earth, space, time, people, plants, things.

Supernatural - God, truth, thought

God doesn't abide by time, that is something tied to this plane of existance. God Created time, universe, earth, your soul, and mine.

You classified it wrong, which is the same problem Dawkins has, as he wants everything to fit into a tidy box of science, only one category... when clearly more than one category exists.

It is funny that you are so hasty to condemn Sneaky for "mixing up the categories" and Dawkins for "wanting everything to fit into a tidy box of science, only one category..." when you are doing the exactly same thing, but only worse.

You started off correctly by putting the appropriate things in the "natural" category. However, it seems you got a bit confused the statement before that when you said Sneaky was mixing up his categories. He simply pointed out the fact that perhaps the universe doesn't have a beginning, therefore has existed for all of what we perceive as time. He was thereby putting the very same items into the very same categories you did.

I do get what you were trying to convey though - that time itself is natural, but the concept of an infinite amount of time is supernatural for some reason. This is simply not so. The concept of infinity is not a immediate qualifier for supernatural.

You claim Dawkins wants to put everything into a tidy little box, but it is actually you who is subjectively classifying everything as one category or the other. It is you who needs everything to fit into these tidy little two boxes.

And then there is the classification of "thought" and "truth" as supernatural. That is a horrible, horrible misclassification and a drastic understatement of supernatural. Abstract ideas =/= supernatural occurrences. By your definition, we are all superheroes! If abstract ideas are supernatural, then the simple fact that we all possess emotions makes us all supernatural. Dibs on the name Tony Stark.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

sneaky wrote:

Again, Quantum Mechanics shows what begins to exist does not always have a cause. Richard Dawkins is not a particle physicist. Nor is he a physicist of any kind, I do not expect him to teach about a field that he is unfamiliar with.

The way he touts how intelligent he is, while every "faith based" person is such a fool... (hmm, another field he is unfamiliar with) I think that disproves your point?...

It took me a minute to understand exactly what it was you were trying to say disproved his point. I finally realized that you were saying since Dawkins has faith in those who say Quantum Mechanics proves what they say it does, he is thereby falling victim to that which he bashes others for.

As usual, you're interpreting everything with a certain slant that no one else sees. Dawkins, by no means, said that every single person that has faith in something is delusional. It is the faith in a supernatural deity that he is concerned with, not the faith I have in my car and its ability to start in the morning without running a full diagnostic before I turn the key.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

strawman.

Indeed, his example was a strawman, and he fashioned it to look exactly like yours. Christians too commit suicide due to feeling that life is futile. As due Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and people of every other religion. Suicide is usually a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain which causes depression. Depression, not certain religious beliefs, is what causes people to end their life.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

Then we have the world we live in. With countless examples of Gods work (same as those electrons, you can't touch it, but you know it is there).

Yeah, except while we may not be able to touch electrons with our fingers, if you will, we can definitely see them, manipulate them and register the direct effect they have on everything they encounter. This is why we know they are there, not because a Magical Chemistry Book was passed down for thousands of years telling us they exist. There is absolutely, positively, no way whatsoever to verify God through the same means. Just like every other one of your analogies, this attempt was a poor logical fallacy and a pointless attempt to pass hyperbole off as a legitimate argument.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

You see the supernatural. Look into the sky at night. See all those stars, when you hold your first child, and watch as a loved one (who has a relationship with God) passes away while telling you what they see, all of those are examples of the supernatural. With a hard heart, you can choose to ignore these examples, but they are still there.

So now stars are supernatural? Only a few paragraphs ago, you yourself classified "space" as natural. You can't have it both ways. So now love, death and deathbed hallucinations are supernatural as well? You, sir, need to have a second look at the definition of supernatural.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

So, if there is no supernatural, then at what point does a fetus become alive? If the soul doesn't exist... Then wouldn't any fetus that is viable outside the womb be "alive" under your example? As they could "get lucky" and survive. I have a friend who's son was born 5 months premature, he is doing pretty well considering (just turned 10)

So should we ban abortion because it is killing a viable fetus? Or are they just unlucky...

A fetus becomes "alive" when it no longer has to rely on direct biological assistance from a host to perform the most basic of biological functions. Absolutely, any fetus that is viable outside the womb is alive. Well, viable for any significant of time, at least.

Yes, we should ban abortion as far as a fully developed fetus is concerned, hence why partial-birth abortions are illegal.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

We also have evidence of Creation, and a young earth, but lets not be open minded about that.

Evidence as stated by a small group of self-proclaimed scientists is hardly scientific proof. Offer up some peer reviewed and solid evidence and we will be glad to listen.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

Now, that concept seems far fetched, but is it really? Lets look at electrons. Can we see electrons?...

Nope.

I know I addressed this earlier, but I wanted to do so again, just for good measure. Yes, yes we can see electrons. I'm not sure how where you got that we can't from, but that is absolutely false.

FreeEnterprise wrote:

Actually, I have presented tons, and people with open minds will see my examples have merit. Just because you choose to ignore these examples doesn't make them not exist.

How did life begin?

Please, do elaborate. I don't seem to recall these numerous pieces of evidence for God existing. Besides, if you did have said conclusive data, wouldn't that completely invalidate the whole faith thing - you know, that tiny bit of your religion that everything hinges upon.

Just because something is currently unknown does not mean that a supernatural being caused it. It is for this very reason the ancient civilizations used to worship countless deities - they had absolutely no way of explaining such mysteries as the Sun rising and falling every day, so they created beings to attribute this miraculous phenomena to. Coincidentally, now that we can explain everything that used to be seen as divinely inspired, no one cares to worship these superfluous deities any more.

Human beings have always created Gods of the Gaps to explain what they did not understand. Now we are down to but a single one.

Holy science, that was definitely a much larger task than I assumed it would be!

Posted By: mod98commando
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 1:42pm

FreeEnterprise wrote:

__sneaky__ wrote:

FreeEnterprise wrote:

I think it would have been interesting to hear his rebuttal to the "nothing comes from nothing" causation argument.

1. Whatever begins to exist must have a cause.

Quantum Mechanics says you're wrong.

How does complex physics prove that there is some sort of Creator? All that proves is that part of nature is complex. Complexity can occur naturally, I don't know why you're so convinced that this can't happen. Just because certain things are not simple or can not be explained by humans doesn't mean that some divine being is behind it, there is no logical connection there.

2. The universe began to exist.

If it's possible god existed forever, why is it impossible for the universe to have existed forever? Or the singularity that started the big bang? etc.

You are mixing up your catagories.

Natural - science, earth, space, time, people, plants, things.

Supernatural - God, truth, thought

God doesn't abide by time, that is something tied to this plane of existance. God Created time, universe, earth, your soul, and mine.

You classified it wrong, which is the same problem Dawkins has, as he wants everything to fit into a tidy box of science, only one category... when clearly more than one category exists.

But, who Created that science with those structures?... That study is philosophy.

Hmm...so God exists in our world but does not abide by its rules and can't be perceived or proven to exist. How convenient. This is why you have the right to believe in God but many people get bent out of shape when you claim his existence to be irrefutable fact. Believe what you want but in this "plane of existence" there has not been absolute proof of God. Sure there have been books and stories but since when is that enough to consider something fact? Whether you like it or not your beliefs are just beliefs, not absolute fact. Deal with it.

3. The universe had a cause.

The way he touts how intelligent he is, while every "faith based" person is such a fool... (hmm, another field he is unfamiliar with) I think that disproves your point?...

So you can't be a d-bag and still be right? I haven't read the book and I'm not familiar with the author so I can't comment on the validity of the claims about him but assuming you're right and he's an arrogant douche, that doesn't necessarily make him wrong about the facts. His opinions may be silly but those are just opinions anyway, who cares. And no, I'm not saying he's right to imply that religious people are fools, I'm saying that whatever fact he uses to support his arguments is not invalidated by his arrogance.

If it truly doesn't matter, than life is meaningless. And I can point to thousands of Atheists who have ended their lives because of this hopelessness...

I can point to millions of people who have had their lives ended by Christians who didn't think it was meaningless. Whats your point with this?

strawman.

It is really sad.

And Christians don't ever suffer from depression or feel unfulfilled? You always make it seem like all Atheists are these miserable people who pray for death to save them from their pointless lives yet I often can't spot an Atheist until they identify themselves as such. I found out my boss and two coworkers of mine are Atheists and they're all perfectly normal. They enjoy life and just don't think about religion as they don't feel the need for it. They stopped believing at some point and that was all there was to it. Nothing else changed except the amount of free time they have on Sundays. You keep making this argument over and over again yet my life experiences (personal and second hand) contradict it 100%. Sure, I don't think I'll be flying around in a land full of rainbows and sunshine after I die but that doesn't bother me. When I die, I'll simply cease to exist, just like before I was born. I wasn't born thinking "my god did not being alive suck" so why would that happen after death? It's hard to comprehend the idea that your mind and body will cease to function but it will happen nonetheless. I don't fear it and I don't stress over that. The only effect it has on me is that I feel more determined to enjoy life. Because of that, I'd argue that it has made me a better person and probably more fun to be around. That may not be the case for everybody but Christianity doesn't always keep people from being miserable either.

But, typical if you look at it from a Christian world view.

For example. Play along with me now, as this example, I will need you to open your mind to a possibility.

Say there is a God, and there is also a devil.

God is good, devil is bad.

Devils goal, to get you on his side.

God's goal, to have you choose Him, and accept Him as your Savior.

Then we have the world we live in. With countless examples of Gods work (same as those electrons, you can't touch it, but you know it is there).

The devil tries his best to make you believe all of that stuff is bunk. Made up. It is even dillusional. Anyone who believes that stuff is silly, and should be called names. (sound familiar?)

So, over time, people start to follow this belief that there is no God. And what happens? More people on the devils side.

They aren't bad people, they are just confused. (the father of lies? remember) More souls added to his side...

I heard a proverb that applies to this thought

"The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward to present his case"...

Oh, FE, this part of your post is definitely a winner. That is probably the epitome of ridiculousness. You basically just said, "what if an imaginary being is telling you not to believe in God" and you're using that as your counter to sound logic, reason, and fact. How can you seriously use that as an argument? You're saying that one supernatural being who can't be proven to exist is telling us not to believe in another supernatural being that can't be proven to exist and your main opposition is made up of people who generally don't believe in supernatural beings at all.

pg 50 is another interesting quote, "The existence of God is a scientific hypothesis like any other... God's existence can be proven or disproven by laws of science."...

That is only true if science is the only reality. And I don't see the natural world as the only world in existance.

Until we have evidence of some kind of other world, we will continue assuming this is the only one. You keep forgetting how science is (or at least supposed to be) based purely on facts, not wants.

You see the supernatural. Look into the sky at night. See all those stars, when you hold your first child, and watch as a loved one (who has a relationship with God) passes away while telling you what they see, all of those are examples of the supernatural. With a hard heart, you can choose to ignore these examples, but they are still there.

It's official, you've lost your mind. You can believe there is something beyond the natural world if you want but that doesn't make it fact. You really need to learn that no matter how much you believe something, it's not fact until it can be proven to be true and until it's fact, you will look like an ass for portraying it as such. A religious person telling you what they "see" as they pass away is not sufficient proof either. Like it or not, many people tend to see what they want to see. The mind is a powerful thing and it's your mind that ultimately decides what you see, even if that means fabricating or modifying things. Maybe people do think they see some crazy stuff when they're dying but that doesn't mean it's real or that what they think they see is even what they're really seeing. Those inkblot images are a good example. Many people can look at the same image and see different things despite having the exact same image as an input. Deeply religious people would obviously have a tendency to "see" God or something related to their faith, especially since that's what they want to see when they're on their deathbed.

Again, Quantum mechanics disagrees with you.

We do not know Creation is too complex for such different types of life, evolution explains it all quite simply and beautifully, you just refuse to look at it with an open mind.

open mind... Really?

You see nature only... I see nature, and supernatural. I think it takes a much more open mind to believe what isn't seen, while opening yourself up to the possibility of more to life than just our short life here on earth.

I think most Atheists wouldn't argue that germs, bacteria, etc. exist even though those can't be seen without proper equipment. Also, you don't see the supernatural, you believe in it. There is a huge difference there. Also, I'm pretty sure if you could prove the existence of God then Atheism would be just about completely eliminated. I'm sure it's just the lack of proof that fuels it rather than open/closed-mindedness but you believe what you want.

So logically, there must have been a Creator.

Fail, sir.

...

Fail in every sense of the word.

To think otherwise, will just give you a headache, as over time it will grind on your mind because you know it to be true.

This Creator isn't part of our natural world, he doesn't follow the laws of science, (otherwise how could the first life start?...)

We've hypothesized about this in previous threads as well. You're simply ignoring the arguments made to you, when you never refuted them.

I haven't seen an argument from you yet... But, I would be glad to refute it if you present one.

According to Aristotle, there are four types of arguments.

1. Demostrative

2. Dialectical

3. Rhetorical reasoning

4. Poetic reasoning

I have used all of these in my discussion so far.

"Fail, sir" isn't an example of one of these argument types.

How could you possibly know all of this about God? And why are you bringing up Aristotle? He was pointing out your epic failure, not trying to make a counter argument. I don't think a counter argument is needed as your logic in the statement he responded to was just flat out wrong. There was no logical connection between that statement and what you said before it so the statement was just wrong.

So should we ban abortion because it is killing a viable fetus? Or are they just unlucky...

Abortion is a tricky issue. I think that once the fetus is capable of acting on its own will then it should be considered alive. I don't know at what point that happens so I can't give a time frame. I don't think this has anything to do with a soul though, just the development of the brain and its ability to perform. That said, it doesn't necessarily mean the baby should be killed. I believe that you shouldn't have an abortion unless there is a significant threat to the health of the mother or the baby itself. The idea of getting a late-term abortion because the person "changed their mind" is sickening to me, it's not like you're buying a car or something. But that's an entirely separate issue anyway.

The big bang and inflation are probably better theories to stick with, considering we actually have evidence for those.

We also have evidence of Creation, and a young earth, but lets not be open minded about that.

No, you don't. There are questions and hypothetical scenarios designed to answer them that can't be disproved/proven (though logic makes a strong case against them) but that is not evidence. If you choose to believe them, fine, but that does not make it factual evidence.

Again, evolution can do that, whether you want it to or not.

How exactly did the bombardier beetle "evolve"... without killing itself?

First of all, that bug is awesome. Second, how do you know that other mutations of the original beetle didn't die when spraying it's chemicals? That could quite likely be the case but those beetles obviously would not survive once startled so they would be less likely to reproduce and pass on their mutated genes whereas the current bug would survive and see much faster growth. You truly do not understand evolution if you really need that question answered and explained. It's a very simple process.

...

Because we see the effects of the electrons so we assume they are there, as we know something is making the results we see... Which is the same way we see Gods hand in our lives (supernaturally).

Throwing out the existence of God because we can't see him would be the same as throwing out any of the concepts in science that we can't see, but know they are there.

You're making a fundamental mistake. Right, we can see the effect of electrons. You have yet to provide any real substantial proof that we can see the effect of God.

Actually, I have presented tons, and people with open minds will see my examples have merit. Just because you choose to ignore these examples doesn't make them not exist.

How did life begin?

Again, you haven't given proof. You just take all difficult questions about the world and humanity and make up something about God to answer them. There is no fact to back it, just assumptions based on what the Bible says. One more time, if that's what you want to believe, that's fine. However, that doesn't make it fact and you shouldn't be pushing it onto others as such. We don't really know how life began but that's not proof that God exists or is responsible for it. It may be possible but until there is any proof (real proof, not your version of it) whatsoever, I don't think it's likely at all. Also, your examples haven't been ignored at all. I'm pretty sure they were all acknowledged and counter examples were given.

I actually agree with that even though it may sound depressing to some. I don't think we were made for a purpose but rather just happened at some point. I don't see that as a bad thing though, it is what it is. We're here, we do what we want to do for ~80 years and then we're gone, succeeded by our children. Though nobody really knows what happens after death so it's possible that there is something more but there is no proof. You can choose to believe in the after life or that things just end but neither can really be said to be fact. I think one has a clear advantage in the logic department but again, that's up to you.

and

"Science is the only way to arrive at truth"... (what scientific experiment proves this?)

"There is no absolute truth"... (is that true?)

These can't be proven really so you have every right to disagree. Hell, I don't even fully agree with those statements. That's his opinion and nothing more.

And Carl Sagan wasn't much more optimistic...

"the cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be". (where is the scientific proof for this?)

That can't really be proven either but it's just as possible as the existence of God so I wouldn't discredit him too much if I were you.

I wonder what he thinks today?

I'm curious what this had to do with the rest of your post? Seems a little bit random.

Not random at all, as both Sagan, and Dawkins were devout atheists.

And Atheists are the DEVEEEEL!

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oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland

Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey

Me: But only if they're hungary

Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth

Posted By: Tical3.0
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 2:08pm

High Voltage wrote:

Tical3.0 wrote:

FreeEnterprise wrote:

then how do you explain near death experiences? Where people die, and see things,

I think this lil puddy has something to do with people seeing things right before they die/near death blah blha blah

It's DMT -dimethyltryptamine

Inb4 Tical is called a stoned slacker because FE doesn't understand that DMT is produced naturally in our bodies.

I knew someone would know what I was talking about.

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I ♣ hippies.

Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 2:46pm