A ton.

 

 

http://www.borderinvasionpics.com/index.html - http://www.borderinvasionpics.com/index.html

 

 

Major props for doing something about the corruption in Washington, that allows the government to leave our boarders unsecured for criminals to cross in this way day after day.

 

 

 

INB4

 

 

 

RACIST!

 

breaking the law to enter the country is a crime...

 

 

Because all too often, people that do that, will break other laws as well, and society suffers from the impact of that lawlessness.

 

for example...

 

http://bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1257082 - http://bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1257082

 

 

oh, the irony

Whaaa wait a minute here....

This is coming from the same person who within the past month admitted to committing a crime. 

Good job randomly characterizing millions of people to the actions of a small minority.

Open immigration is, at its core, a supply-demand creation of pure capitalism. 

Of course, FE is a part-time, or convenient capitalist. 

 

No where would it have stood up in court as a crime. They were clearly trying to "scare" me into not getting them in trouble with homeland security.

 

People wear wigs all the time to get ccw permits, they are called toupee's. And NOT ONE would be forced to remove it.

 

So I think you need to rethink your argument...

 

Wearing a wig to a ccw permit picture, is nothing like coming into the country illegally and then staying here and breaking more laws along the way.

 

 

wrong. what is the unemployment for LEGAL residents today?

 

come on, the liberal talking points just don't hold water to this type of reasoning.

 

They are illegal, they are breaking the law, the government has an obligation to protect the boarders.

 

If they do get a job, they are breaking more laws, as they have to show real id to get said job. And most FAKE that id...

 

another law broken,

 

most don't pay taxes... similar to timmy gietner... which liberals are so fond of... So I guess not paying taxes is a good thing if  you are working for the man...

Who should be treated and viewed differently than people trying to get here to make a better life. 

You didn't actually bring up any statement to refute being a part-time capitalist. 

Why don't you let the free market decide where they get their labor from? Why impose costly restrictions on them by not letting them use this convenient cheap labor? 

Why do you hate free enterprise, Free Enterprise? 

 

strawman much?

There is an inherent flaw in your argument, Tallen. 

You are trying to say that this: 

Is at all comparable to this: 

Who is saying that again? 

You break laws every single day.

... I'd be willing to wager what ever bet you like on that FE.

2. They come here not because they're lawless degenerates who want to screw with other people. They want a better life for themselves. Being a thief and a criminal just because you don't want to go finish highschool is not = to people who do break the law to come to the U.S. Just because they break one law to find a better life, does not mean they are willing to break dozens of other laws at whim.

Yet again, you are using a mighty big brush there FE. A small group =/= the whole group.

If the system was the same as the generations before, as in sign on the dotted line at Ellis Island, then you'd have yourself an analogy. But that is not the case, as has been pointed out. 

It's almost like we need to rethink our immigration policy. Or something. 

 

WE didn't brand them illegals, they branded themselves illegals when they BROKE THE LAW....

 

Good lord, this argument really gets to me. It seems like it's divided up between two sides who have absolutely no concept of reality...either we disregard all law for compassion, or we enforce broken laws to the point of silliness.

 

Let's look at the issues facing lawmakers here-

 

A:) The system is broken. When it takes decades to emigrate to America, there are issues. However...

 

B:) We can't take everyone. The US isn't a last ditch beacon of light to the entire world so that they can simply abandon their countries and rush here like we're some kind of lifeboat on the Titanic. You know why some people died on that boat? Sometimes there's just not enough lifeboats. Life is cruel, which leads me to...

 

C:) Tallen brought a shimmering light of intelligence to this discussion. How about helping them FIX THEIR OWN DAMN COUNTRY. We seem to ignore the fact in this debate that the entire population of Mexico can't simply move its way up a few hundred miles. It won't work. You can't...

 

D:) Flood the economy with uneducated workers. Supply and demand is right, and right now we have far too much supply of low level workers and far too few jobs. You can find these statistics yourself, I think our massive unemployment rates speak for themselves. Not that I feel like Mexican immigrants are taking low level American jobs, that's simply not true, in fact...

 

E:) There's another side to that coin. While yes, it is a negative impact to have that many low level workers flooding into the country, illegal immigrants still make up a portion (a very small one) of our economy. You can't just remove millions of people and expect to have no impact-don't kid yourselves, deporting all immigrants right now would hurt the economy.

 

F:) But again, here's another problem. A large amount of these people are having children who are immediately put on state run Medicaid services, and the immigrants themselves simply use the ER like a clinic. With no traceable identity, they have no obligation to pay. This costs the system hundreds of millions every year, and I'm sure numbers actually jump to the billions.

 

G:) So having uneducated, low level workers who have almost no grasp of the English language in certain amounts is fine, but just like with naturally born Americans, too much low level and not enough educated work results in a drag on the economy. That's why we have to choose who immigrates and who doesn't, so the dream of huddled masses is over. The time when America could take every single person on who wanted to enter is over. The American dream now involves years of education, only to then have to compete in dog eat dog economy for enough pay to keep yourself off of government assistance. Which of course, our country fails miserably at.

 

H:) There are huge issues with illegal immigrants, aside from economical. We have people bypassing health services coming into the country without proper vaccinations and treatments, so now we're developing a pretty sizeable TB problem in Texas. One of the hospitals in my network has its own TB ward that deals predominately with illegal immigrants who, even after being given proper medication despite their illegal status, refuse to stay on the medication.

 

I:) Because, whether the law is working well or not, there's a certain level of importance in respecting the legal process. I agree with FE to that extent-while you can't generalize the whole Mexican immigrant populous with this statement, there is validity to the idea that someone who is here dodging authorities and living illegally might be more prone to breaking other laws. Which brings me to...

 

J:) How the hell do you keep track of illegals? Yay, compassion, but crime around Texas border towns has reached insane levels, and how do you keep track of someone who has no identity? OR worse yet, has someone else's identity.

 

I agree, the system is broken. But it's not as easy as saying aw, let the poor fellers stay. Invoking the American dream seems so odd, since the dream is a concept and immigration is law.

 

The idea that having illegals in the country benefits Americans is silly. Their work may benefit us, but their status is a huge detriment. If this were an easy issue to fix, someone would have fixed it. But there is no easy option.

 

In my opinion right now we have to work with what we have, and not walk the dangerous road of disregarding international law.

 

I realize this post was convoluted as hell, but that's really how I intended it. This issue is convoluted, and there is no black and white definative statement to fix it. Can the laws be fixed? Sure. But that takes time, and in the mean time we have to enforce law.

 

Honestly, I agree. But can anyone propose a way to figure that out, without a legitimate identity?

Except for FE because he's Cherokee

You're missing the forest through all those pesky trees. 

Nobody is trying to argue that illegal immigration isn't illegal. Nobody is saying that people should be violating the law as it currently stands. 

What I'm trying to argue - and what a lot of people are trying to argue, is that the LEGAL WAY needs to be changed so that those doing it the illegal way have a better/faster/easier way to do it the legal way. 

I'm certainly not proposing amnesty. I'm saying that we need to recognize that immigration from the south is happening and at least attempt to make it something we can benefit as a country from. 

 

For starters, I really don't know anyone who hates Mexican people. Speaking for my state alone (and we absorb a large percent of the impact that comes with this issue), we're incredibly integrated. My US Government class had no less than five different races, and was taught by a man (an amazing teacher) from El Salvador.

 

I have friends from every race and background, my sister is Thai, I have a cousin that's half native American, and some really good friends that are black, white, etc. But the vast majority of my friends are hispanic.

 

I maket his point because those that make statements like these make two assumptions-

 

A:) Those of us who don't feel everyone should be allowed in for every reasons are biggots who just have it out for anyone who ain't 'Merican. That's total BS. These border states have more diversity than any other states in the union. and we get along just fine. This is a legal matter, not a matter of race, or even economic standing.

 

B:) That legality somehow infers class division. That's not true either.

 

This goes back to one of the oldest moral dilemmas on the planet-if given the option to either feed your family with stolen bread or let them starve, which do you choose?

 

I think that statement sums up this whole debate. I think that we can examine the ins and outs of both answers and see why there's no way to simply answer this question one way or the other.

 

If you steal, you've broken the law. Yet I, nor anyone else on this board, would comdemn you for choosing to feed your family. But the law would. And if you were caught, you'd have to pay a price. Should our compassion for the starving people in this scenario change theft laws? No, because compassion would then give way to abuse.

 

And that's where we're at. Compassion is giving way to abuse of international law. Do I blame, or even morally condemn illegal immigrants for trying to make a better life? Hell no. I might even do the same in their position.

 

But the law does comdemn them, because the law is not emotional. It's how we enforce that law that comes into play. I think that insteaed of throwing out red herring and straw man arguments we should have a legitimate discussion in this country of how to enforce international law properly and with compassion.

 

There are very few people advocating shooting Mexican immigrants on the spot. There are very few people that wouldn't love to help Mexico find a solution to being a third world country. It's very easy to generalize an entire side of this debate as being intolerant, racist, holier than thou, or however any of you choose to phrase it, but that doesn't fix the issue.

 

Of course, it's equally as ridiculous to throw out "WHAT IF WE WERE IN THEIR COUNTRY OMG", or "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS" (gotta love SP :P), it's like two sock puppet caricatures fighting over some cartoon issue with not understanding of the reality that the situation occupies.

 

I think everyone in this discussion is intelligent. This thread is held by some of the brightest people on the forum, and I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence. This is simply an issue that I feel is far more complex than is let on, and I think that the constant bickering on both sides regarding baser stereotypes is immature,, and I think that more importantly it's carrying over into the American political scene. We see politians and elected officials arguing the same damn points I see in this thread, with no intent on addressing the real issues. But then again, that's politics for you. All rhetoric, and pick up the paycheck.

 

K, so how do we fix it? We understand that you dislike the system, we dislike it as well.

 

But you do realize that the jobs that you're speaking of are already getting scarce. There's going to be a flood of firefighters, paramedics, cops, etc etc in the next several years due to the economy. In fact, our military is so full that, for most people applying to the Navy and Air Force, there's a substantial waiting list.

 

So what's the plan? Who calculates how much of each job we need, supply and demand, what markets need what?

 

It seems like the concept of our capitalism (if you want to call it that) around the world is that we just have infinite jobs for anyone with an Associates or license in anything. Literally most of my friends are trying to get into the fields that you listed.

 

A buddy of mine with a perfect record is trying to become a cop. He's a body builder, has the required 64 hours of college, his father was an FBI agent and a police chief, his brother and sister in law are both Ft Worth PD officers, and his pretty damn good with a pistol. But guess what? It's probably gonna be a couple of years. Ft Worth PD has been full on their academy list for the past two sessions. So now he's looking at firefighter. There goes a while of volunteer work just to get on the list for full time work, which may or may not happen.

 

Even our medical field is flooded. These mid level jobs are going fast. Even the highest paying degrees have taken a hit, because our economy is not doing well right now.

 

I'm gonna bet we all know at least a couple of people with "useful" skills that can't get a job.

 

Now, some of you may live in areas with booming economies, that are just begging for people fo these skills. I realize my area doesn't speak for everyone. But from what I'm reading, and what I'm hearing, even American citizens are having a hell of a time finding jobs. How do we flood the market with more people seeking these same jobs?

 

Understand I'm not saying you shouldn't be receiving your green card. I'm all for getting the dream accomplished, but I'm also saying there are other sides to this coin that you're failing to consider. I'm sure there's a whole mile of red tape that you're going through that is excessive and could be fixed. I'm just throwing some counters to your line of thought.

 

Sums it up.

 

I'm pretty sure applying laws to one race isn't going to happen.

 

So what's the plan? Who calculates how much of each job we need, supply and demand, what markets need what?   It seems like the concept of our capitalism (if you want to call it that) around the world is that we just have infinite jobs for anyone with an Associates or license in anything. Literally most of my friends are trying to get into the fields that you listed.

How about we let the market decide what manpower it wants?  If illegal immigrants can get jobs, why don't we legalize them, see if they can still get jobs when they're paying taxes and Social Security, and actually let the market sort it out, instead of giving them economic incentives to come here which Americans don't have.

 

A buddy of mine with a perfect record is trying to become a cop. He's a body builder, has the required 64 hours of college, his father was an FBI agent and a police chief, his brother and sister in law are both Ft Worth PD officers, and his pretty damn good with a pistol. But guess what? It's probably gonna be a couple of years. Ft Worth PD has been full on their academy list for the past two sessions. So now he's looking at firefighter. There goes a while of volunteer work just to get on the list for full time work, which may or may not happen.   Even our medical field is flooded. These mid level jobs are going fast. Even the highest paying degrees have taken a hit, because our economy is not doing well right now.

How is this relevant?

 

I'm gonna bet we all know at least a couple of people with "useful" skills that can't get a job.   Now, some of you may live in areas with booming economies, that are just begging for people fo these skills. I realize my area doesn't speak for everyone. But from what I'm reading, and what I'm hearing, even American citizens are having a hell of a time finding jobs. How do we flood the market with more people seeking these same jobs?   Understand I'm not saying you shouldn't be receiving your green card. I'm all for getting the dream accomplished, but I'm also saying there are other sides to this coin that you're failing to consider. I'm sure there's a whole mile of red tape that you're going through that is excessive and could be fixed. I'm just throwing some counters to your line of thought.

Perhaps some of the people you know with "useful" skills should go put their backs into working for restaurants, landscapers, and picking produce like the people we're discussing in this conversation.

Whatever connection you're attempting to make between illegal immigration and the current economic situation in this country is so incredibly distant that you haven't actually mentioned the original topic.

stratoaxe wrote: Rofl_Mao wrote: I see new immigration laws in the future, however for some retarded reason I see it only being applied to Mexicans.   Sums it up.   I'm pretty sure applying laws to one race isn't going to happen.

Seems unlikely, given that people who actually study law would see some flaws in doing so.  First of all, while Mexicans probably provide the single largest group, they are by no means the entirety of illegal immigrants in this country.

Why apply it only to Mexicans?  The point here is to make the market more effective at regulating itself and the people coming into the country for jobs.  The reality is that Mexicans face a huge number of incentives that people from other countries don't.  If that helps us out, well, seems win-win to me.


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BU Engineering 2012

 

See, you're actually confirming my point.

 

My response was to Rofl's statement that immigration should be defined by "useful" skills, such as his desire to be a paramedic or a firefighter.

 

My point was that his concept was basically sound, however his concept of useful was not. Simply having a certain set of skills doesn't guarantee one economic "usefulness", as I illustrated with my friends who excercise the same skills.

 

And BTW, they're all working hard at entry level jobs. That particular friend is a security guard, another friend I have that's working on his nursing certs is a waiter, a friend that's got a degree in criminal psychology is working odd jobs to stay alive. So the idea that my friends are sitting around on their asses while illegal immigrants toil away at jobs they won't touch is laughable. But that's another image that lots of people (Jack White included...) would like us to believe.

 

We're all working to stay alive, but even the most educatedin this country are finding that supply and demand has bit them in the ass.

 

So Rofl's idea that somehow an immigrant with those skills is going to defy the system and become an economic asset is silly.

 

In fact, the idea of using economic status to streamline the system is antiquated and almost uncivilized. The idea is to encourage growth after they get here.

 

These problems aren't exclusive to immigration, we have a massive problem with government dependence in this society. So we need to figure how to fix that on the domestic end, and find some way to apply the fix to the immigration side. This won't be instant, or easy.

 

In fact, the idea of using economic status to streamline the system is antiquated and almost uncivilized. The idea is to encourage growth after they get here.

Absolutely.  The reality is that a huge portion of foreigners who study in the US are turned away from living here because of our immigration system, when we really should be fighting to keep them, rather than having them go to India or China where they get paid less and cause even more American dollars to go overseas by competing with American companies.

 

These problems aren't exclusive to immigration, we have a massive problem with government dependence in this society. So we need to figure how to fix that on the domestic end, and find some way to apply the fix to the immigration side. This won't be instant, or easy.

Absolutely.  Social Security and Medicare are literally going to collapse, because of the way we've allowed politicians to not balance the budget, so people are going to be forced to live without government help whether they like it or not, eventually.

However, I would point out that the relation of the US budget and illegal immigration is tenuous at best.  Two different coins, rather than two sides of the same one.


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BU Engineering 2012

It's not bad, but what are you using for your "naturalization" standards? 

Granted the article only mentions 2 instances...but still. How many times do we need to deport the bad ones before we get it right?

Mr. Tallen, I have some humble suggestions for your proposal. 

Let's see if we can hash out something positive for this world even here on the Tippmann forum. 

Would you support taking some of the money collected through an administration fee, even that initial $5 paid for the temporary residency paperwork, and offering a dirt-basic English language class open to anyone who wants it? It wouldn't be mandatory, but for those showing the drive to do it, it would at least be available. 

I can agree with this, save for one acception: Would you be willing to consider adopting the DREAM Act language into the bill? The people this bill would cover had no control over their parents actions and are showing that they are willing to stay in school and become educated. 

You can read about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act - here.

A few more questions and suggests: 

The big three things that would need to be discussed beyond these the things I've said - and I'm curious to here what you are willing to conceded - are: 

Do you know anybody who thinks that way? 

 

(inb4, "keep them out!")

It's my project for tomorrow. 

One final thing. I think that military enlistment should equal automatic citizenship. Work the naturalization classroom courses into the method of service, but no community service is necessary as they are obviously doing the biggest community service possible already. Mind you, this means minimum scores on the ASVAB or whatever test they're giving now, and fluent English would be needed to serve.

 

Yes, it could count for the first year's lottery. 

The NRA has been warning us about this! 

...Since 1992. Year after year.