Employing Americans.
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Category: News And Views
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URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=186449
Printed Date: 24 January 2026 at 3:55pm
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Topic: Employing Americans.
Posted By: oldsoldier
Subject: Employing Americans.
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 10:27pm
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With Michelle in Spain at $75K a day (one good annual salary for one US worker, or two mediocre annual salaries) giving work to non Americans supporting her 'vacation. Wouldn't it have been a better move to 'vacation' in America, spend the money here, and keep Americans in work supporting this 'vacation'. Visit a National Park heaven knows they need the influx of money, tour NYC again could use the money, but NOOOOO in these economic times lets spend money in Spain. Really endearing Obama, Obama family, and crew to the American tourist worker.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1301302/Michelle-Obama-lunches-Spains-royal-family-backlash-extravagant-holiday-continues-home.html - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1301302/Michelle-Obama-lunches-Spains-royal-family-backlash-extravagant-holiday-continues-home.html ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: NiQ-Toto
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 10:47pm
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She brought FORTY PEOPLE on vacation?! What? Do they just take over anywhere they go? Thats too many people to be able to bring along anywhere IMO. I hate traveling with more than like, 4 people cause everyone wants to do different things.
Also, 70 SS agents. /: ------------- ///AMG What? |
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 10:53pm
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The lie that she was travelling with 40 people was taken care of by the East Wing a day or two ago. She doesn't have 40 friends with her, its two friends and their 4 daughters. Gosh, I LOVE sensationalism. ------------- 
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 10:58pm
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Still a crap load of money paid for by American taxes... ------------- 
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Posted By: NiQ-Toto
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 10:59pm
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Oh. Still. ------------- ///AMG What? |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:07pm
Was it? The Obamas were quite independently wealthy before coming to the White House.
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Linus wrote:Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:10pm
Sure is, if it was all taxpayer funded, which is highly unlikely. Still waiting to hear the actual taxpayer pricetag from the White House. There are mixed reports as to what the party itself is paying for, and what taxpayers are paying for. If taxpayer money wasn't involved, I wouldn't complain about her being in Spain compared to the US. Sure, it'd be nice for her to spend money within America, but I wouldn't want to limit my options to just America given the possibility to travel to somewhere like Spain. However, with the taxpayer chunk of money, I'd much prefer it was put back into the American economy. Not that the majority of the money isn't going to her American security detail and general entourage, but still.
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http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection |
Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:16pm
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She is paying for the vacation, not the small army of Secret Service agents and gear. That's what is costing over $60,000/day billed to the American tax payers. ------------- 
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Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:18pm
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I really dont care where she goes. If its her money, she can do as she pleases.
Would you care if she took this trip after their term is up?
And really, dont you think she will have SS agents with her no matter where she is? So either way....people will be paying for the agents.... ------------- 
hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives." |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:20pm
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Exactly. She is going to have some detail of U.S. Secret Service with her for the rest of her life, most likely, because of her current position. Is she not allowed to go anywhere in the world outside of the U.S. for the rest of her life?
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:21pm
And those agents have to eat, if necessary rent cars or other modes of transport and sleep in hotel rooms. That money could be put to good use being recirculated here stateside. -------------
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:24pm
Only if she or her husband pays for it. If I'm not mistaken, past presidents after Clinton no longer have free lifetime Secret Service protection any longer. They have to foot the bill after their term of office is up. -------------
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:28pm
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She can go where she wants. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:35pm
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As the wife of the US President with the entire country facing an serious economic crisis, the true sign of LEADERSHIP would be for the First Family, as an example, would be to vacation in the US to YES spread the wealth here. The 'rich' both left and right do not think, because they are above it all.
Obama and crew target the 'rich' for thier behavior, yet this......... -------------
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Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:36pm
you think that's bad? Since soldiers salaries are paid with tax dollars, you'd be surprised at what some of them buy with their pay checks. I've seen a lot of random things, and the scary part is i know that i haven't seen everything yet. So far the 25k engagement ring is the topper edit- stormy, you're correct. Clinton was the last one to receive lifetime coverage from the secret service, the presidents to follow will only get it for ten years after they leave office, i don't know about paying them to stay later though; it's definitely possible |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:39pm
It's 10 years after the president leaves office. I don't know if they have to pay for it. ------------- 
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:54pm
Thanks for the correction. I forgot about the 10 year part. -------------
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 9:49am
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/facepalm -------------  irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 1:15pm
So... now the president and his family are not allowed to go overseas? I guess we should never go to war then.... all of our soldiers will be spending their money on items in other countries where they are stationed. -------------
hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives." |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 1:30pm
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Spending tax payer money that you recieve as compensation for service, and then spending that money 'overseas' is not as bad as just spending tax payer money when not even 'compensated' as an employee of the US.
All that this trip is spending in these economic times would have been better spend enhancing the economy of some US tourist area. Just the SS costs alone could revitalize some US tourist area, as the hotels/motels, resteraunts, attractions see a great influx of money. BUT NO, lets spend all this money overseas, sending more of our money to another country, let them benifit, while US tourist industry is struggling in this economy. LEADERSHIP, Barak should have told her NO, you will vacation in America and pick up our economy, and since he does not have the 'intestinal fortatude' to even do something that simple, heaven help us. LEADERSHIP in times of crisis is a hard thing to handle, and again Obama proves he can not think outside his little box, and for the morale of America, have Michelle vacation in America. Enough said about this little exercise in LEADERSHIP. -------------
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 3:56pm
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You're so ridiculous.
------------- 
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 4:33pm
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 4:39pm
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Why dont you start complaining about what she wears? Her expensive shoes and such....guess what, most likely imported.
Are you going go crazy over her stylish clothing now? -------------
hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives." |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 5:20pm
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Key concept- Morale of the people, and the message the Obama trip is making on the average struggling American.
A 'Let them eat cake' attitude from the LEADER and family to the American people really did not work for the French before thier revolution either. This 'infotainment' culture of 'oh how cute or whatever' on the Obama trip is not going to sit well in November. -------------
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 5:42pm
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As an average american who works, I don't give a damn about where she takes her vacation.
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 5:43pm
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 5:44pm
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"Those who do not learn from history, are destined to repeat it" -------------
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Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 6:21pm
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 6:47pm
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You know, I hate to admit it, but I halfway agree with OS.
The thing is, it's not a big deal. Really. But if I remember correctly (I could be wrong), the airline trip cost around 11K an hour in taxpayer dollars to operate, and wasn't this a 16 hour round trip?
It's all about image. Making the mistake of telling Americans to tighten their belts and then spending nearly a quarter million dollars to fly your wife on a vacation to some exotic resort in Spain is certainly puting out the appearance of a double standard. Now the rest was paid for out of pocket, but again, apperances.
I'm not saying this a deal breaker for Obama, or something that will even impact his popularity, but the Obama family have been fairly liberal (meant in a purely non political sense) with vacationing, and it's caught the eye of the American people in a time with massive unemployment and lots of people barely making it.
Again, not a big deal, but as far as it being more of a negative than positive impact on his image, I'd tend to agree with OS.
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Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 8:13pm
QFT.
Although, correct me if Im wrong, didnt Obama turn down his salary? I could be confused with Jon Corzine.
Bottom line is, you shouldnt be flying your wife on taxpayer money around the world when that money could be used elsewhere. Flip the bill yourself, or go vacationing in your house in Cape Cod. ------------- 
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 9:19pm
Ok, so let's say that this is correct. Let's do some math. That ends up being a total cost of $176,000, assuming tax payers really did pay for it. There are 309,937,000 people -roughly- in the U.S. Divide that down and you get a whopping cost of: $0.00056 per U.S. resident. Another thing to think about: A Tomahawk missile costs about $570,000 to make. One of them. And we blasted about 800 at Iraq on the first two days of the invasion there.
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 9:21pm
------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: Eville
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 9:47pm
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The "taxpayers" are currently supporting more than 38,000 people to live in Stuttgart alone. Thats families of military personnel, military personnel, and civilian support. I can guarantee that the majority of the money that the American taxpayers are sending to soldiers and their families oversees are going into the local economies, in this case, Germany. Where is the outrage here? How is this any better than when the first lady goes to Spain and the taxpayers pay other Americans to provide her with security? Where is the outrage? Oh, wait, there isn't any. Get over it, OS. ------------- 
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 10:43pm
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Its spelled "Your". "Your so ridiculous" ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 11:01pm
 Are we really complaining about this? ------------- Que pasa? 
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 09 August 2010 at 11:04pm
This better be a troll post. -------------
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Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 12:42am
Defense spending=/=vacationing.
Thats like saying:
I mean like, we spend kajillions putting people into space, yet we complain when Michelle Obama urinates $171,000 of taxpayer money on nothing but herself and a few friends.
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 5:44am
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For one, let me just clarify again that this is a total non issue for myself. I'm biting for the sake of argument, otherwise, couldn't care less. This happens in every presidency, and right or wrong, it's gonna happen as long as independently wealthy people are presidents. But I think OS makes some valid points, if slightly over stated. Image is everything here, and, nit picky or no, I can see how one could easily find some negativity in this story.
And just for funsies-I really want a Porsche. 175 grand would buy me a nice Porsche 911 turbo with some damn good custom features, and considering the small impact on tax payers, I'm seeing no reason not to get one
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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 10:05am
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Also, isn't it silly to try to divide economies into "American economy", "local economy", "German economy", etc? In today's global economy, borders don't matter. Something that affects one part of the world, affects everyone. It's cyclical. ------------- irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 4:02pm
 ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 7:50pm
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Why not take her vacation in Louisiana?
------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 7:54pm
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Why not take her vacation in spain where people with money go to?
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 7:55pm
Critisize the unpopular and evil 'rich' while acting like one, interesting concept in modern politics. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 7:58pm
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I know many people who aren't rich who have been to Europe. Cry more. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:01pm
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Now what if this was President McCain's wife doing this in today's poor American economic climate, the media would be in a feeding frenzie.
AGAIN LEADERSHIP is a skill, critisizing and going after the 'evil rich' in American society, and then acting like you are one of them really is a unique approach to the Obama way of politics. -------------
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:02pm
When did Michelle Obama do this again?
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:04pm
You mean like they are right now? I've seen both news stories and talking head opinions about this on CNN and Fox News, and read about it in at least three newspapers.
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:05pm
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:12pm
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Michelle is a representation of the husband ie the PRESIDENT, they are one and the same in the public eye when it comes to these types of actions. I believe Jackie Kennedy started that trend with 'Camelot' being the reflection of the 'royal' familiy in America.
Again why is the actual concept of LEADERSHIP and the responsibilites therein so difficult for the American masses to understand anymore. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:14pm
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Because this has nothing to do with neither leadership or responsibilities.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:20pm
| OS, you're angry about nothing. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:26pm
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Am I not correct the Obama is the LEADER (President) of the United States, and as the LEADER has a certian set of responsibilities to the people of the United States. When he asks the average American to tighten thier financial belts in these times of economic crisis and his wife takes a lavish vacation partially on the taxpayer's dime, you do not see that as a problem Obama's concept of LEADERSHIP and many of you have with the same concept of LEADERSHIP. Heaven help your generation.
LEADERSHIP is putting you troops (people) first, MANAGEMENT is seeing yourself as above the troops (people) simple concept to understand. -------------
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:28pm
Well that goalpost quietly got moved back, didn't it?
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:31pm
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Simple concept to understand that taking a vacation isn't putting yourself above anyone. Everyone does it every single day.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:38pm
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She may not be using all of the taxpayers dime, but the 'royal' entourage of Secret Serfics and support staff and equipment sure costs a pretty penny for a 'personal' vacation. Goal posts are still in place just furhter defined. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:40pm
A quiet National Park within the US, a tourist city within the US, would show LEADERSHIP spend money within the US, Spain is a choice of arrogance in today's times. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:43pm
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No it would not show leadership. It would show that is where she wanted to go. Instead she wanted to go to Spain and could afford to do so. Therefore it doesn't matter. Secret Service would be with her no matter where she goes anyway. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 8:47pm
And if she went to vacation somewhere in America, the Secret Service and support staff would have stayed behind and not gone with her, right?
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 9:12pm
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Would she not have the same entourage if she were to vacation in America? Actually, since the Spanish government is likely paying for a big chunk of security themselves (being that the Spanish police are involve), wouldn't that actually make it cheaper for her to vacation there? Edit: Damn it whale ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 9:52pm
Lets see... I myself never want to go to a National Park for fun. Its just not me. Im more into the city life.
Then, Ive been to the East coast so many times, it really seems all the same to me. Ive been to California and Vegas, so Ive covered that. People get sick of the same old stuff. At her age and with her money, im sure shes seen it all.
My family is middle class, and we usually always go on vacation. Ive been to Europe too, and I would LOVE to go back. Id rather skip a few vacations HERE and go THERE.
Their architecture, language, normal daily stuff isnt like it is here. Its a whole new/better experience. You go to one big US city, your experience will be similar in all others. -------------
hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives." |
Posted By: JohnnyCanuck
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 10:57pm
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I'd like to employ an american.
------------- Imagine there’s a picture of your favourite thing here. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 10:58pm
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Jmac lets review. If your employer came out and told all his employees that the company was in dire straights economically and you may lose your job, or not get a pay raise, or lose benifits, and then sends his wife on al all expense paid trip to lets say "Spain", what would that tell you about the real state of affairs of your 'boss', and the overall morale of the average employee. -------------
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:01pm
Is the budget of the company such that it cost each employee $0.00056 each? Is the money for the trip coming from the company or the private person? If the private person, it just shows that this is a silly analogy. And that you hate capitalism. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:10pm
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Do any of you truely understand LEADERSHIP, it is the example you as the LEADER make to the troops (country) for morale purposes. You put the country first and your private life about 14th on the scale of responsibility. This is just a real bad decesion during these economic times, you LEAD BY EXAMPLE, if average American's need to tighten thier financial belts, as the President and First Family you do the same or more, simple premise. But again too many spoiled 'kids' see only self first, and will or can not grasp the concept. -------------
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Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:12pm
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Go to yahoo, front page there is an article on it (on my touch at the moment)
EACH party paid their OWN way. SS picked the hotel for safety concerns. HOW does this cost more? The SS agents WILL BE WITH HER EITHER WAY WHEREVER SHE GOES! Do they get premium pay for overseas jobs or something? Does this mean NO rich person can take a vacation? -------------
hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives." |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:13pm
They're essentially complaining to complain. Your point is exactly what I was thinking, they HAVE to be there, what do you want? |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:19pm
In defense of OS, I have not seen this outside of the forum.
My parents usually have CBS on in the house, and I read the headlines on MSN. There was plenty on that flight attendant though. -------------
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:23pm
I rarely watch MSNBC because of their lack of competent writing and awful website design. And network TV news is just . . . awful. I've seen it on CNN and Fox as far as television goes, that is all I can say. It's certainly not some coverup.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:25pm
Not to mention, the title of this thread leads me to believe that OS is of the mindset that if Michelle Obama would have vacationed in the U.S. that jobs would have been created as a result. I'm just not entirely sure that is the case. Who is hiring people because the First Lady is staying in your town? It's not the World's Fair. I'm sure I'll get some response about LEADERSHIP though, no doubt.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:27pm
So now your problem is that she went on vacation in the first place, not that she went out of the country? Because, as was pointed out, the Secret Service and other needed personel are going to have to go either way, no matter the destination.
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Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:28pm
You might as well go to ihatebarackobamabecauseimsuperconseravative.com or freeenterprise.com if you're watching CNN or FOX. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:31pm
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My premise is as the Leader of the country you can not make a statement to American's that they need to 'tighten thier belts' finacially and then do this evil 'rich' behavior stunt and expect American's to go "What?"
And what would have been better for a First Family vacation in the eyes of Aemrican's, spending money at American tourist attractions and sites, or foriegn? Go on vacation fine, but spend American money in America, help our tourist economy that is hurting, not Spains. How is that such a hard concept to understand, LEADERSHIP is a hard skill to master and Obama gets a 'fail' on this stunt. -------------
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:33pm
Fox is like watching an enjoyable circus. CNN has a fantastic website though. This is coverage and all that aside - just the schematics of the website. It's one of the most user-friendly news sites you can find.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:36pm
Going to Spain is a "rich stunt?" I thought we pointed out already that it wasn't really all that expensive. Like, at all.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 11:43pm
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Whats wrong with Flagstaff, Arizona for a vacation, Taos, New Mexico, bet thier tourist economy could of used the boost better than 'Spain'.
You still get Spanish emersion, and a Latin feel, and actually spend money in America, go to Spain in 2013 when hubby is out of a job. And if it not that expensive at all, when you leaving for Spain Whale? -------------
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 12:06am
I'm not as wealthy as the Obamas are for sure. No arguing that. But I'm also not trying to tell people who do have the money how they should be spending it on their own free time. I also don't think it matters, as far as payment to individuals goes, where she would have went. I also don't see it as an outrage in general. I'm saving this little bit of poutrage for the next time a CEO gets defended for their spending practices.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 12:14am
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I want to go back to Europe, but momma states we are getting a tow behind RV trailer and spending our money here in the US. She has already picked out the RV and stated next years 'vacation' will be in Flagstaff, Arizona (All i want to see there is 'Little America' Truckstop, best meals and coffee I found in my career on the road, after the Giant in New Mexico was bought by Pilot). I see massive amounts of crafty things stashed in the corners of the trailer.
Also still have my green passport so State Dept needs all those forms filled out when I travel outside US, not eligable for Blue till next July. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 3:09pm
Your analogy is crappy. Does my boss's wife already have a 24/7 security detail no matter where she goes? Is he paying for her trip with their money(which is what she did)? If the trip was on the companies credit card(which it wasn't) then I might care. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 3:19pm
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It DOES take more security to cover them both when they are apart... And I would assume the SS get a pay bump whenever they are overseas, like all government jobs. So, the fact that they are in Spain other than a great US vacation would be really bothersome to me, if my family hadn't vacationed outside of the US this year too. That would make me a hypocrite.
------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 3:31pm
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Yes USAF, but they would be apart no matter where she went.
------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 11 August 2010 at 10:40pm
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Doesn't the president go overseas all the time?
Should he also not go overseas on diplomatic affairs? Because, well that costs money. It would also create a need for SS to guard 2 parties. EITHER way, 2 parties are always protected. Each person paid their own way. SS is there no matter where they are. Why can't they spend the money they have? Do they need to donate it all? Do they not pay their own taxes? -------------
hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives." |