We're all trying to get by, just like everyone else. I don't except anything for free from anyone, and I don't think many people my age (24) do either.

edit- Maybe I misunderstood you. Are you claiming that "youth sitting around demanding benefits for nothing", is what is happening now?

 

Where I disagree is the old school mindset that the military is good for everyone. I can name off several people that joined the military and came out more lazy and government dependent than when they went in. It's all well and good to envision lining up a bunch of emos to boot camp, and they come out all fresh cut and ready to join the workforce, but I think history has proven that a pipe dream at best. More than likely if you drafted a bunch of lazy, mindless potheads, they'd do their time and come out dependent on disability from the military the rest of their life. 

I can't see that as being economically prosperous.

 

I'd like to point out something else as well-while you're spot on about the "cannon fodder" mentality in Vietnam, there's another element that made Vietnam such a morale disaster-the people didn't support or understand the war.

 

And unfortunately, lots of people don't understand or support the current conflicts we're involved in. So I think a modern day draft would present a whole host of new issues, and wind up igniting 'Nam era resentment of the government among youth.

 

The army isn't for everybody.

 

Again, I can name a few Iraq war vets on disability that are perfectly fine.

 

Now, this is the part where all the military guys on the forum flame me with "OMG U DONT KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE SHUT THE MONKEY UP", and I'm all for giving our guys what they deserve.

 

But people are going to abuse the system. They're going to claim PTSD, bogus health problems, so and so forth, when they never even saw conflict.

 

And so when you weigh all this out, combined with the inevitable degradation of military standards, I don't see the benefit of a draft.

 

*edit* to put it another way, the military isn't going to magically change lazy, unmotivated people into hard working individuals. It may some, but it'll simply give many of them a whole new outlet of options to stay lazy and unmotivated.

 

Before I say any more, let me just say that I fully endorse giving every possible benefit to veterans. That's not the point of this rant.

 

What I'm trying to do here is expose the flaw in your thinking with the draft. You, as I do, recognize the disabilities attributed to experiencing combat.

 

Yet, you want to expose the vast majority of the young workforce to those same disabilites.

 

What I'm trying to say as that all of these people on welfare and that are abusing the system are going to be drafted, and then abuse that system. And that system is for life.

 

I don't see the economic benefit. 

 

As far as PTSD, both my dad and my brother are receiving benefits due to PTSD. I'm VERY well versed in what PTSD is. My dad is 100% from PTSD and hearing loss directly related to his service in Vietnam. 

Why, pray tell, not just let the unemployed enlist on their own power? 

Besides, OS, I'm still not seeing how you can remain so dead set against the government telling you what to do, and yet you're willing to force millions to the military in order to give them a personality overhaul.

 

Endorse forcing people who may or may not be cut out for the military into a situation that could leave them mentally and physically scarred, but dammit, a public health care option VIOLATES EVERYTHING WE STAND FOR. It doesn't make sense.

 

I tend to agree with you on alot of things, but this isn't one of them. I see the draft as wrong on several levels, unless it's a last ditch effort to defend the country from an imminent threat.

THIS.

 

Where? I've certainly not seen this. 

Isn't this the exact thing that all of the conservatives were throwing a fit about and labeling "Obama Youth" because they thought Obama was going to institute it a few months ago?

 

I addressed this earlier. While some will inevitably be changed by military experience, many will not. And those that aren't will continue to receive a check for doing nothing.

 

oldsoldier wrote:  The cultural exchange in itself would be a benifit to todays enclave culture, you have no idea what being next to an educated person, for someone who again has a diploma but can not read it, as well as the comraderie and a greater feeling of self worth is a negative, how?

 

Let's just ignore all of the negative sides of the military, that'll derail this thread.

 

Rather, let's go back to an earlier question. Let's pretend that the military is a wholesome experience that will change young Johnny Nogood into brave Captain America. Now, what's wrong with forcing people to accept what's good for them?

 

I mean, they don't know it's good for them, but once they get in there, gee golly it'll be great.

 

Let's rephrase that to "I endorse forcing people to do what I believe is good for them regardless of their personal feelings on the matter".

 

There's no way around it, that's what you're saying. And that's where I take fault with this.

 

To go back to that aforementioned question-how is this okay, but forcing other things down people's throat like universal healthcare is inherently unconstitutional?

 

stratoaxe wrote: To go back to that aforementioned question-how is this okay, but forcing other things down people's throat like universal healthcare is inherently unconstitutional?

So how is forcing people into being dependent on the military for a paycheck - a paycheck paid for by the American taxpayers no less - making anyone any less dependent? 

Also, how do you propose garnering up the money to pay this huge new influx of soldiers, airmen and seamen and still opposing tax increases at all costs? 

I thought you might have missed myself and Whale's quetsions, so I put them in one easy to quote post!

 

agentwhale007 wrote: Also, how do you propose garnering up the money to pay this huge new influx of soldiers, airmen and seamen and still opposing tax increases at all costs?

And again, you support a draft to bolster the number of military men, and you also routinely decry every proposed tax increase. 

How do you propose that the rest of the country pay for this increase of government dependents? 

Please explain what the "give it to me class" is, what they are doing to expect nothing in return? I don't see this happening. 

And if you are talking about programs like health care or infrastructure projects - I propose tax increases. I'm fine with it. You're the one who opposes tax increases and claims the "taxed enough already" mantra. 

No. Not really. 

Those employment checks still have to come from somewhere. Someone has to pay for it. 

And the military - while very important - does not make enough money in return to cover its costs. That's the reason that taxes go to support and fund the military. It's not supporting itself - because that is not the purpose. 

Again, cost. How to you propose paying the new flock of folks into some kind of nationalized service? 

Also, the majority of Americans are employed. I know that unemployment is high right now, but most people have a job. Why not allow people to chose to go into the military or a national service if they are unemployed under their own power? 

 

So let me get this straight, everyone joins the military, retires out on disability, and does absolutely nothing to contribute to the economy, yet somehow due to the amazing rise in work ethics there will be profit?

 

Step 1. Realize you're a god damn hippie.

Step 2. Join the Military

Step 3. ???

Step 4. Profit

 

And yeah, gotta love those dumbasses with degrees trotting around to job interviews and looking at potential incomes in the six figures after 5 years or so of "work". I mean, they're missing out on all the benefits of retiring on disability!

 

 

 

Six figures isn't a dream, it's reality with alot of hard work and planning. I chose to plan for myself rather than let Uncle Sam plan for me.

 

It's all risk management anyway. My career goal is a huge risk. I could fail out, end up with a BS in Business, try and work my way towards an MBA, or just end up failing altogether. That's how capitalism works. The bigger the risk, the better the payout or else the harder the fail.

 

The lifestyle that you enjoy, the guarantee of payment through government at the cost of any financial wealth or advancement has a name...it slips me right now...

 

<.<

>.>

 

Tallen702 wrote: socialism

 

There it is!

Third generation whats? 

Also, yes, there are folks unwilling to work or find out a job. I believe these people are in the very sliver-narrow minority of the whole pie of unemployed. Anyway, what does this have to do with anything with a draft? 

They can demand more benefits all they want, that doesn't mean that welfare systems like unemployment won't give you the boot after a period of time or if you don't seek employment. 

That's the opposite of what I am saying. 

You oft complain about the amount we spend on welfare programs - however, those programs are optional. If I lose my job, nobody makes me go into the unemployment line to get a check. I can just ignore it. 

However, what you are proposing is a forced system - which would increase the load of cost. 

Imagine if you told everyone who lost a job they HAD to file for unemployment? 

Well this seems to be the exact opposite of you complaining about folks turning down jobs, waiting out to try and find jobs they want to do, and proposing to force them into another job they don't want. 

I'm confused. 

 

Increased regulation on the private market is seen as the beginnings of the Beast and the Antichrist, the tea parties rally like some modern armchair guerrila rebellion against the current bloated state of affairs, libertarians crowd around the campfire and talk about getting rid of all but a basic function of government, etc etc etc...

 

And then you throw out something like this. Forced government labor at the hands of its citizens. A draft into social services, or the army, or whatever. It makes you sound like a complete hypocrite.

 

The thing is, I have no problem with the basis of what you're saying. I think drastic times call for drastic measures. A military draft is a bit absurd, and proven to be ineffective, but I can appreciate your thinking.

 

But let the phrase "universal healthcare", "regulation", "mosque", "Obama", whatever, be uttered, and its someone trying to shove government down your throat. It suddenly becomes once again my generation whose apathy is allowing massive government to take control.

 

But then again, when you want to force contracted labor out to the government in some kind of social service draft, and my generation cries foul, suddenly we're bucking authority, trying to be lazy and all hippie like.

 

I agree that my generation needs a kick in the ass-I was fairly surprised by Tallen's statistics. But nonetheless, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth with this.

 

And if anyone points out the flaws in your thinking, it becomes an assault on your generation, or we're insulting veterans, or lessening the effects of PTSD, so on and so forth.

 

I think that's where the replies in this thread are coming from, speaking for myself at least.

This for lack of better term 'Aristocracy' that is trying to develope is also leading to the issues facing the country today, a pure us vs them social and cultural war.

 

It's hard to take this claim of a "class war" seriously when you use language like: 

 

Hey-Canucks don't escape the responsibility of being neighbors to a free, Christian, forced labor country like this. When 'Merica calls, you answer.

Fixed

I'll disagree with it.  Just like Obamacare, where is the money going to come from?

PTSD

That was then.  This is now.  Employers (short of flipping burgers and asking, "Do you want fries with that?") require documentation or certification of your skills.  They want transcripts and degrees.  While they applaud your service to your country, you lack the basic necessity for the job that they require:  A degree.  Now if the military starts cranking out diplomas for their veterans, that might be different.  I don't see it happening...

That has to be the most retarded thing I think I've seen you post.  Are you saying you could out-earn anyone here on your HS diploma vs their 4-yr degree minus your VA benefits?  Please.

 

Yeah, it would be sweet to send busloads of Emos to bootcamp and make respectable young adults out of them... but it would also be nice to raise duties on imports so more jobs stay stateside. They both sound like a great idea, but wont work(sadly).