1) Why are we at all opposed to this? Isn't this the greatest slap in the face to Islamic terrorists now that it's clear we support gay people killing their members? It's like Jewish soldiers fighting the Nazis. Forget the politics or the BS morality that the right is pushing, this is a giant middle finger pointed at them - akin to rebuilding the WTC (which should also have been done sooner)

2) Admitted by military folk - They know gays are in the military. They know specific gay people in their units. They more-or-less get along. The differences go away in combat. The problem comes from people insisting it's a concern but it not actually being an issue in practice. This doesn't just happen in the military, people interact in a similar fashion in other organizations.

 

I've always been confused (ironic terminology, I know) about the whole "gays in the military" / "gays in boy scouts" / etc, and for the same reasons that OS brings up.

 

See, I always see the argument that someone's already pointed out "OMG GAY PEOPLE DONT WANT EVERY STRAIGHT MALE", which is fine and dandy, except, it's pointless. I'd bet that 80% of us on the forum (Gatyr aside) could walk into a female restroom, do what we gotta do in plain view, and nary a woman in sight would feel any sexual attraction.

 

I think we've all matured up to the point to admit that the vast majority of women aren't even remotely turned on by the look of a penis alone. So why differentiate at all? There has to be a reason, and it seems to me that this reason applies to both gay men and straight women. It's a matter of privacy, and I have yet to see anyone convince me as to why this is not an issue.

 

Take the boy scout argument. What's the difference between a gay man leading a group of boys and a straight man leading a group of girls? The issue was never that there would be uncontrolled rape, it was always an issue of liability. It's much safer on all accounts to let someone who was not sexually attracted ot the gender in question take the lead.

 

I'm putting all this out there as a question, and +100 internets to the first one of you guys that explains this to me (and by that I mean those of you defending this position) without the old standby of "We're all mature adults". Because we're not.

 

I can tell you of a fact that if you stick me in a shower full of attractive women, it's going to be very uncomfortable for at least a couple of us. Am I mature enough to deal with it without making an ass of myself? Sure. But it's going to mighty uncomfortable, and the sooner I get out of that situation the better.

 

Why wouldn't the same apply to gay men? Is the sexual attraction of a gay man so different than the attraction of each one of us to the opposite sex?

 

I'd also like to entertain that sometimes there's not a solution to every problem. If you put gay men in the women's group, at least forty straight men (myself included) are going to start volunteering as homosexual to get in the female showers. And I just went over what's wrong with gay / straight interaction.

 

And I'm not homophobic, before it's thrown out there. I'm not going to justify that statement with any kind of stories of how many gay situations I've been in, how many gay friends I have, etc etc, again I think we should be able to discuss these things without turning it into a flame fest.

 

Also, a second bonus question that could make this whole argument null and void-is the whole system of separating men and women in society outdated? Are we ready for coed everything? Obviously if the answer to either of those is yes, there's a good chance this argument becomes completely different.

 

I look forward to hearing the anwers you guys throw at me with this. I really would like to understand this argument in a different light than I do now.

 

And I'm not homophobic, before it's thrown out there.

I don't think anyone would accuse you of that. Being able to bring these challenges up is what will lead to an answer, not pretending they don't exist.

As per the rest of your post: I agree. There ARE differences in gender association in the military and in society in general, and I don't think tossing in now-legalized open homosexuality is going to change that or make it go away. It is something that will have to be dealt with. As much as I'd like it not to be, it is.

And I don't know the answer. I don't know if separate restrooms, or separate living areas, or what have you, is the answer. It's going to take some looking-into by the powers that be.

I had a feeling that's what someone was going to say

 

I think, purely from experience dealing with the myriad of people I've dealth with in my lifetime, not from academic studies (in other words, in my head), that there are very strict differences between the way a man feels sexual attraction and the way a female feels sexual attraction.

 

Just for instance, a woman is wired to look for a suitable breeding mate. It's this way in basically all of nature-the males will diddle anything that presents an orfice, and the females pick and choose based upon certain aesthetic qualites.

 

In humans, females take this several steps further, by figuring in lifetime commitment possibilites, dependability, ability to raise a family, etc etc. It's just what keeps the race going. Men on the other hand, we pretty much in most ways fall prey to our own sexuality. I don't care how prudish you are, or how many hot female friends that you've never boned, you're wired to want sex with attractive females (and in my part of the country, the attractive part isn't a necessary qualifier...take a look at our young...). I've had those sleepovers with hot friends that you mutually wanted to be plutonic friends with...I'm almost positive it qualifies as legal torture. That's assuming you both stay mature about it; I've had incidents where we didn't and I lost a good friend.

 

TL;DR is this-men are wired to be attracted in a certain way. And in all my time having homosexual friends, dating girls who surround themselves with homosexual friends (trying to stay away from the derrogatory terms in this thread, but you guys know what I mean), working with homsexual men of all social standings, I've noticed that they excercise attraction in the same way I do. They are perfectly capable of leading the same committed relationships that straight people are, but they are also suceptible to the same base desires that straight men excercised. It's just the male "chemical" structure if you want to call it that.

 

And yes, I realize that there are many females wired this way, and many males that aren't, but I'm talking on the whole; there are exceptions to every rule. Alot of gay men have developed the same reputation of being horn dogs as straight men. Men are men, regardless, IMO.

 

So a straight man is going to view the idea of a gay man through his own eyes, be it accurate or not. He's going to empathize that the gay man views men as he views women, and I can honestly say that can be a scary idea in a shower

 

I think this issue is, as Mack pointed out as well, a privacy issue. It's not the gay man that's the problem, it's the straight men who don't feel comfortable. And in the military feeling uncomfortable translates to danger on many fronts.

 

I just don't think we're ready for full integration in the military. The military is an intimate place, and they move at a much slower speed than the rest of society. As Tolgak pointed out, American society isn't ready for coed existence at this point, and I feel like the military is ten steps behind every step that society makes.

 

Tolgak wrote: Mixing genders is a lot worse than mixing preferences. A gay guy in a group of men wont be seeing anything he doesn't see on a regular basis.

 

I thought about this actually, and my conclusion is that I both agree and disagree with this idea.

 

I think that if repetition diluted sexual desire, a married man would be gay within the decade. A man can get to know th emost disgusting and unnerving side effects of the female anatomy for years, even get tired of that female, and the next one that walks by he drops his jaw (among other things) for.

 

I saw my fiancee naked to the point that I didn't even care, but I certainly did when we broke up and I started dating again. Everybody's different when you're attracted.

 

And again, this isn't so much an issue on the gay man's part, but that the straight man is analyzing the situation as I just did. Until American society matures to the point they can confront and deal with these taboo issues, integration , especially in the military, is going to be difficult.

 

Lastly, I think we should all go back and watch the shower scene in Starship Troopers.

 

I'll think of a reason later.

 

From a purely undeducated standpoint, I feel like the anwer is 'yes', but with the qualifier that I think Tolgak's point stands true-you are bothered by what you're not accustomed to.

 

So while you can't kill the obvious sexual attraction, I think that this would be alot less of an issue if Americans were as comfortable with the naked form as, say, Europeans.

 

Honestly, showering together, being naked together, it's no different than working together in all reality. I don't jump on my attractive coworkers when they're clothed (most of the time), would I suddenly become a rapist if they were unclothed? Well, maybe. But still. I'd be uncomfortable, and don't think for a minute I won't be mind diddling them all, but I don't see it changing the phyiscal outcome of the situation.

 

But I'm in the drastic minority here-the military, especially the Marines, still runs alot on adrenaline / testosterone. And whenever there is an abundance of macho men, they're going to be afraid of looking gay. Again, my ten step behind society rule applies.

 

Haha, again, I kind of saw this question poppig up.

 

I think the stereotype of lesbians as "butch" and "manly" is vastly overstated.

 

Just going by what we've talked about, let's run with the idea that men and women are permanently wired in a certain way.

 

So regardless of sexual preference, they view attraction in the same way defined by their body's chemical makeup (I'm at a loss for better words here, refer back to my lack of education on this subject haha)

 

This actually lines up perfectly with my experience with lesbians. I find that lots of women who are lesbians are lesbians for a reason. Ask any gay man when he found out he was gay, he'll usually give you a varation of the same idea-at some point, he just felt sexually attracted to men.

 

With lesbians that I've known (which is few, for some reason I never get along with lesbians...), it seems that at some point in life they reached the realization that men were either unreliable, or didn't relate to them on the same emotional level.

 

I think more women are lesbian than admit it. Bisexuality is completely rampant among women, and I think it's because of the aforementioned gap in ideologies and attractions between women and men. It's like at some point in history women snapped and realized, "Crap, since I don't see things in any way like a man, why even bother?"

 

Lesbians tend to be more standoffish and often excercise alot more bitterness towards straight society that gay men, in my experience. Alot of times it's an abusive man, or just a lack of perceived respect that men excercise towards women that drive them to realize they feel a closer emotional bond to the same gender than men.

 

Gay men get along with women and men because in the end, they're dudes. They may nail other dudes, but they're dudes, and they tend to be more laid back, and more willing to just kind of get along with everyone.

 

I go back to my wiring statement.

 

The "lesbians" in girl on girl porn are almost never really lesbians, from what I hear. It's the approximation of a male fantasy. True "lesbian" porn would probably turn most men away, because it would be far less overtly sexualized to the male desire.

 

Also, two guys doing it is just unappetizing to watch. No offense to gay men, but I'm almost positive only gay men like gay porn. I don't know women of any creed / preference that dig it, and straight guys use it to shock their friends. Men are just not pretty creatures, it' like watching two wookies wrestle over a doughnut.

 

So to answer your question-lesbian porn is hot to women and men because

A:) It's developed, casted, directed, produced, edited, and sold by men for men.

 

B:) All women secretly want each other and hate men.

 

B:) may be an exaggeration.

It's not that men lose their attraction to females, it's just that it becomes less big a deal the more we are exposed.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/10/pentagon-poll-most-us-troops-are-ok-with-gays-in-military-/1 - Pentagon says most soldiers don't really care about DADT one way or another.