Well played sir...
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Category: News And Views
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Topic: Well played sir...
Posted By: Tical3.0
Subject: Well played sir...
Date Posted: 06 January 2011 at 10:40am
Well played indeed... ------------- I ♣ hippies. |
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) – God's mind was behind complex scientific theories such as the Big Bang, and Christians should reject the idea that the universe came into being by accident, Pope Benedict said on Thursday.Replies:
Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 06 January 2011 at 10:45am
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Does that mean the Catholic Church will teach (er, preach) Intelligent Design now? ------------- 
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 06 January 2011 at 6:54pm
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Lies. Xenu did it. ------------- ? |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 06 January 2011 at 7:22pm
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If you go by science as we know it now, energy can neither be created nor destroyed--- so where did the energy, let alone matter, of the big bang come from?
Yes, the counterpoint some of you will state would be "Where did God come from?", but alas, if you give credence to matter and energy just *poof* existing, you have to give the same credence to a higher power possibly just *poof* existing. THE God, a god, or a higher power... not that far out of the realm of possibility if you truly think about it. There is not enough proof (heck, there is NO proof) one way or the other. Honestly, life is far too complex to have "just happened" as perfectly as it has without some sort of push, in my eyes. I've always favored intelligent design over all other theories. It might not be a being (though I choose to be a Catholic) but I do think it's SOMETHING. ------------- 
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 06 January 2011 at 8:50pm
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The Catholic church is rapidly catching up to liberal Evangelicals.
------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 6:07am
If you assert the existence of something, you must provide proof to support it, not declare you are right because no one else can prove it doesn't exist. That's equivalent to me saying Sneecherz (something I just made up) exist in the Amazon. It's quite possible that sneecherz could exist - doesn't make it very likely.
Edit: I'm sure this post comes off as being condescending, but it wasn't intended to be. Just throwing in my $.02
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 11:26am
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Yes, proof of the existence of matter: Not where it came from or how it started.
We have proof of life on earth. We don't have proof of current life on other planets: yet we do know what it "takes" to make life sustainable, and we know there are planets with the same set of circumstances as earth, so current life on other planets is not that, forgive the pun, alien of a theory. Trust me, anyone involved in medicine or biology will agree: The body (human or animal) is damn near perfect in design with it's complexity. It's simply amazing how everything just works, and works well the vast majority of the time. -------------
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 11:55am
F.T.P! W.A.T.P! |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 12:12pm
And yet a 'made in his image' concept doesn't explain the existence of the human appendix, coccyx (tailbone), wisdom teeth, ear muscles, 'goosebumps' that stand on end fur/hair that we no longer have and that in the past would have served the same function as 'puffing up' does in animals, and DNA remnants of vestigial genes that no longer serve a purpose. The human body has a number of genetic 'leftovers' that no longer serve a purpose, but that also don't really serve as maladaptive traits that would result in their own elimination. The initial article is interesting- I'd term it a 'theory of God', that there is some metaphysical... something underlying our current concepts of science. It's something we can't prove, and it is something we can disprove layer by layer as we unlock each new level of complexity and causality. I don't accept the theory of God as likely, but it's not automatically invalid on its face. I won't presume to say I know one way or another whether there's some deity figure or not, though I consider it unlikely. Science and religion don't need to be mutually exclusive, as long as the latter cedes to the former when it makes good sense. It's nice to see the Catholic church finally accepting that. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 12:28pm
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Although it is the catholic church and therefore the Bible we are dealing with here. I see this as the pope saying "Well if evolution is proven then God did evolution". More on the concept of a higher power rather than debunking evolution or the scriptural references like "Created in his image". An oversight on his part but a different argument. I've always thought, If I was created in the image of god by his omniscient self then why do I sometimes bite the inside of my own mouth? |
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 12:47pm
'Tis God's will my son. ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 12:57pm
| The prankster! What's he like eh? |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 1:52pm
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"Created in God's image" is a statement of free will, not physical design IMO. (Insert philosophical debate on free will here)
I believe in God, and I believe in science. I just happen to think a Higher Power was behind it all. I could be right or wrong, but we'll likely never know so I don't see any reason argue for either side. It's like a dog chasing his own tail, we'll never get anywhere. I do, however, believe that if religion counteracts empirical evidence, then something is wrong with your beliefs. Because if God created nature and all her rules, why would he contradict those designs ? |
Posted By: Tical3.0
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 5:10pm
 ------------- I ♣ hippies. |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 7:09pm
| Close minded thinking is this: "We don't have the answer, so god did it." |
Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 7:19pm
No, odds are they won't. Why are our sinuses designed to drain from the top? Why do so many people have back problems? These are examples of systems which evolved very neatly but don't work so well in humans because our ancestors didn't walk on their hind legs. More interesting, however, are systems with wildly apparent flaws. A prime example is the eye, which actually has blood vessels on the surface of the retina. Thats like putting all the wiring for a camera in front of the aperture. It makes no sense to design the eye that way, but it makes perfect sense for an eye to evolve that way. Richard Dawkins uses that example and many others in "The Greatest Show on Earth", which, despite my distaste for some of his agenda, is a fantastic book and everyone should read it. ------------- Real Men play Tuba [IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
Posted By: underground
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 8:34pm
Close-minded thinking is "You don't believe the same thing I do, therefore your wrong." ------------- I believe if life gives you lemons, you should find someone life gave vodka and have a party. |
Posted By: ammolord
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 8:35pm
He has you there choop. ------------- PSN Tag: AmmoLord XBL: xXAmmoLordXx ~Minister of Tinkering With Things That Go "BOOM!"(AKA Minister of Munitions)~ |
Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 9:45pm
This ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 10:27pm
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He really doesn't though. He's right, but he hasn't said anything of relevance to what Choop said. Choop pointed out a giant flaw in how some religious people reason (and the close-mindedness that comes with that thinking); underground posted something that's true, but irrelevant to Choop's criticism.
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 10:45pm
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Yes, clearly it's just that the huge portion of humanity which does believe in God is somehow flawed. Not saying that it makes them any more right, but the whole reason this argument hasn't been solved is that there is no solution. At least not right now. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 07 January 2011 at 10:53pm
Until proven otherwise, it's just as silly to say it wasn't as it is to say it was. -------------
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 12:06am
Incorrect. No god - Universe came from nothing. God - Vast amount of information, on things that don't even exist yet, comes from nothing... being that can process and use that information comes from nothing... then universe created from nothing. You're taking a much larger leap by adding a god to your argument. Your side usually counters with "God works in mysterious ways," and often continues to make up stories in the absence of reasonable evidence (miracles!). The scientific side can easily say "the Universe works in mysterious ways," but its supporters don't like describing those ways unless reasonable evidence is found.
Life as you know it now is too complex to have come up over a short period of time. The current idea of the beginnings of life have it taking about a billion years since the formation of our Earth's crust. Assuming an average forum age of about 25, that's 40 million times longer than most of us have lived. 40 million periods of 25 years is A LOT of time for things to happen. Considering there was all sorts of matter around during early Earth, it's not exactly impossible for a few chance combinations of atoms to do what we needed them to do during that time. Fast forward to today, you are here because your parents before you survived their environments and their experiences to reproduce and raise you. They are here for the same reason, but with their parents. This has been going on for a few billion years. We seem like we're perfect because those that weren't up to snuff didn't get to copulate. ...but we aren't perfect, the others covered that quite well. My approach to all this is to slash the hell out of our existence with Occam's Razor. The existence of matter only proves that it's possible for matter to exist. To go beyond that is to be telling fairy tales. I know what you're thinking... The big bang only describes the FORMATION of the universe, not the creation. Those aren't the same things.
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Posted By: underground
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 4:37pm
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I support the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory, in that the universe was created from his wonderful noodly existence
------------- I believe if life gives you lemons, you should find someone life gave vodka and have a party. |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 6:19pm
This is something I can get behind. -------------
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 7:05pm
Honestly, if something can be made from nothing, then how is it out of the realm of possibility that the same didn't happen with a superior being? Hell, who's to say the superior being didn't start out millenia before that which was the "big bang"? Or that the superior being started out as a single piece of, well, something, and evolved in to what we know as God, who then made the rest of the matter? Do you realize how silly it is to say that one can happen, but the other cannot, using the same logic? It blows my mind to think about how it all started. It's incomprehensible, and we'll probably never know, but TRULY think about it: How did it just come to exist? -------------
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 7:26pm
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The problem with using a god as an explanation for things you don't understand is that it negates the need to further investigate. Rather than accepting the fact that you don't understand something and then studying it to try to figure it out, someone who just says "my god did it" is content to believe that explanation and won't investigate it further to be able to explain whatever it is they don't understand. Linus' argument is a perfect example. He is saying he doesn't understand how the universe came to exist. Rather than studying it to try to understand it, he just slaps the old "god did it" explanation on it and is content to believe that. It's an easy out for people who need to have an answer to everything to bring order to a concept that they think they can't understand. ------------- 
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 7:32pm
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Actually, don't put words in my mouth. I have not once blanketly used "God must have done it" as a fall back to something that I can't explain, let alone no human being EVER has known or been able to explain.
However, I stand by if one is possible, the other is possible as well... that's a helluva lot more than you're willing to admit. I just choose to believe in God. You don't have to, I never force my religion on people and never call out atheist like atheist do to people who do believe, but you can't claim one exist while the other can't, by using the same exact logic that says both could happen. I would LOVE to find out how it ALL began. There HAS to be a beginning for everything, including God/ a god, does there not? However, I also know we'll never know the true origins of the first matter, and would like to believe that there might be something higher. If finding out where things started disproves my God 100%, so be it. But until that point, don't step on my beliefs. -------------
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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 7:47pm
You know, you wouldn't have to say that so often if your position were made clearer from the start. Not an insult, just an observation.
You're right, you don't. You just make very general statements lumping everyone on the other side of your argument together. Screw nuances, amirite? ------------- 
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 7:56pm
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Ok, HV, my view:
I don't know how it all began. NO ONE does. Everything, including a possible god, HAS to have a beginning, does it not? It's, in my eyes, just as likely for a god to exist as there is for one to not exist, just by sheer logic of something had to come from nothing at some point. I choose to believe in something higher. I have no proof of it's existence, just as others have no proof of it's non-existence. Though, as I said, something had to come from nothing, so how could that not have happened with a god? Good enough? -------------
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 8:22pm
Why make up and believe in a conclusion based on something of super low probability, of which we have no evidence for? Sure, it's possible that a being as relatively powerful to us as we'd perceive a god to be is somewhere in the universe. However, there is nothing to say a personal god exists beyond anecdotal statements. Most of the time, it's people slapping "god did it" in situations like pulling a person out of a burning car. Do you realize how silly it is to say that one can happen, but the other cannot, using the same logic?[/QUOTE] I did not say your view is impossible, though I don't believe so. I refuted this statement: "Until proven otherwise, it's just as silly to say it wasn't as it is to say it was." Your view makes two assumptions on top of "the universe came from nothing." Those assumptions are even greater leaps. It's not the same logic. The more unfounded assumptions you're making, the more silly you're being.
People are TRULY thinking about it, without filling the holes with stories to cloud their judgement. I'm not sure we will ever figure it out. Even if there is a god as described in the religious texts you believe, I'm sure he's more dumbfounded than we are and may also be wondering what created him.
How can the universe come from nothing? A god, you say. So how can a god, which would also have come from nothing, not have been created by a higher god. And how can that god have existed without one before it... and so on? Why don't you praise the gods supreme? -------------
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 8:23pm
If this does not say what I interpreted it as, please clarify it for me. My interpretation is: It blows my mind to think about how it all started. It's incomprehensible, and we'll probably never know, = I don't understand it. but TRULY think about it: How did it just come to exist? = a god did it. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, that's just how I read it.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 9:01pm
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This is very relevant to my point earlier. It's more about the supernatural but translates very well:
Worth watching, even to analyze your own thought process. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 10:42pm
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I think it's even funnier that this is an argument that's been rehashed about a million times...and no one is any closer to an answer. Suggestion: move on. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 11:14pm
This debate is less about the answer, and more about the silliness of drawing a conclusion because there's no evidence. |
Posted By: *Stealth*
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 11:36pm
No. More over - I feel most medical professionals or Biologists would be offended by this statement. You're a scientist, acting on systems through trained knowledge and applied study, stop believing in archaic magic and voodoo. Why not be a pastor and heal through the will of god Linus, assuming you have faith the size of a mustard seed? ------------- |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 12:23am
Actually, that was neither a rhetorical question nor a way of going "It HAD to have been a god of some sort" It truly was "How did it happen?" What are your thoughts? How does it NOT blow your mind to go "There used to be nothing, then there was something"? God or not, that has got to make you think, does it not?
Actually, that was more meant as "If it could have come from nothing, how is it coming from a god also not possible?" -------------
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 1:00am
Which I think applies to both sides. I'll wait another couple centuries/millenia/eternity for someone to come up with something worth my time. 'Cause honestly, as far as I can tell neither choice changes my life in a significant way. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 6:14am
It's much less likely. Like I said, the only reasonable conclusion that we can draw from the existence of matter is that it's possible for matter to exist. There's no evidence regarding anything that happened before. It's better to focus on the basics before jumping to further conclusions by throwing a god into the mix. -------------
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 10:04am
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AND ON THE SECOND WEEK. LOLOLOLOL AMIDOINITRITE? ------------- 
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 10:42am
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By the 38th day, God was getting pretty tired and prone to error, and not a little sleep deprived. This explains the platypus, and this is commonly accepted as the point at which He jumped the shark. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 11:30am
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Hehe, nice Bri.
------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 12:18pm
The day you can explain how matter just popped out of nothing is the day you can also say one thing is more likely than another. It's silly to state otherwise. "More or less likely" is not something you can claim with any amount of certainty on a matter like this. It's pure conjecture on both ends. -------------
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 12:58pm
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Not really. You are arguing against one thing coming from nothing while stating that it is just as likely for one thing to have come from nothing then creating everything from more nothing. It is much more likely for one thing to come from nothing than it is for 2 things to come from nothing. -------------
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 2:03pm
Says who? The actual basic premise is that something LITERALLY came from nothing. How is that not enough, atheist or god believer, Christian or Muslim, to not go "What the hell?" -------------
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 2:16pm
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I'm sort of impressed that a debate on origin of matter actually stayed on that topic without going full-tilt into evolution. That does not normally happen here. |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 2:49pm
Naw, now the debate is "Which is more possible, even though science says it's impossible, using purely conjecture and not actual evidence?" -------------
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 3:30pm
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Evidence is for FE. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 3:43pm
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I'm throwing my lot with Shamanism, personally. -------------  irc.esper.net #paintball |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 6:15pm
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I thought that "s" was lowercase? Wikipedia confirms my suspicion. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 8:28am
| That post confirms you have no life. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 1:42pm
Because I spent 3 seconds checking Wikipedia? Seems silly. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 1:54pm
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 3:42pm
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Generally you don't use an ellipsis to combine two sentences. Alternatively, if you'd like to, the proper format is actually ". ...". ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: Tical3.0
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 4:13pm
^^^ ^^^
Just proving scotchy's point. ------------- I ♣ hippies. |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 4:22pm
Now, I am no statistician, but I am pretty sure that the probability of something happening twice, or even the probability that 2 different things happened is less likely than the probability of just one event. -------------
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 4:28pm
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Look at your hand.
Whats the possibility that something will just pop in it from nothing? Non-existent, correct? Yet, that's precisely what happened. Again, God or science, we don't know, so disclaiming one is silly without proof for the other. An answer we will probably NEVER know... atleast with how current science is. -------------
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 4:37pm
Just because we can't answer one aspect of the question right now does not make all of our other answers and theories wrong, it just means we still have work to do. Just because we don't know everything does not mean we know nothing. This is the point that I have been trying to make. Science might be able to explain it in the future, but only if there remains a need to explain it. If you just slap "a god did it" onto things you don't understand, then you will be content with that explanation. If there is no longer a need to explain a question, then the actual answer will never be found. -------------
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 4:41pm
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Again, I never fell back to "God MUST have done it".
Just because someone views it one way doesn't mean they can't strive to find the answer, even if it discredits their current belief. Let's look at just when people thought the world was flat: Even those that set sail across the ocean at first though it was flat, but that didn't stop them from setting sail anyhow and seeing if there WAS a sudden drop off. You can have a belief and still be willing to test it... -------------
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 4:46pm
I would not. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 6:24pm
Fine with me.
You can keep it in the back of our head in case you ever have to write something of worth.
Worst analogy ever. I don't disagree with your point, but that example is terrible. The Earth's spherical nature was proved by observing the stars, which philosophers noted differed as you moved north and south. On a flat plane, the angle would change, but stars would not disappear. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: underground
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 1:56pm
------------- I believe if life gives you lemons, you should find someone life gave vodka and have a party. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 2:04pm
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No, it was "known" that the world was round. That idea started spreading from Greece in 500 BC. Unless you're saying that faith in science is the same as faith in religion. I've seen some amazing things, and I am a Christian who attends regular services. That doesn't mean his analogy is any better than it was before. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: underground
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 2:07pm
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you still don't have to pick it apart like were being graded on our responses. Be friendly AND respectful.
------------- I believe if life gives you lemons, you should find someone life gave vodka and have a party. |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 3:06pm
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Ya, stop proving them wrong, you inconsiderate monster! -------------
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 3:08pm
The rampant mistrust and misunderstanding of wikipedia IS silly. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 5:51pm
Oh, I guess you didn't realize. You're being graded on your responses. Please report to the Bureau of Human Standardization and Programming in the morning. Your responses have been found inadequate. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: *Stealth*
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 1:09am
Yes it can No he was not. A ton. ------------- |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 9:32am
But but but I know nothing about science and I never tried to figure out what actually causes these things! How can that possibly be true! But seriously, if your beliefs can't accept science that is backed up by actual evidence you need to reconsider. And remember:
Just because it happens in the normal course of things doesn't mean that it isn't designed to do so by a higher being. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 5:42pm
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |