Thoughts on Egypt, Libya, Tunisia etc.
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Topic: Thoughts on Egypt, Libya, Tunisia etc.
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Subject: Thoughts on Egypt, Libya, Tunisia etc.
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 3:34pm
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Anyone seen a good non-biased assessment of how all of this will most likely affect the U.S.? Not looking for "ZOMG THE MUSLIMS ARE GONNA GET US!" blogs, but something from someone with a clue without an agenda.
If this turns into an FEaper Fest, I'll just dump the thread, so let's keep it relevent. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Replies:
Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 3:39pm
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This doesn't cover how these events will possibly affect us, but it does do a good job of summarizing who's protesting where and why for anyone who isn't up to date. http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/21/mideast.africa.unrest/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn - http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/21/mideast.africa.unrest/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn ------------- 
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 3:47pm
General consensus I've read/heard is that things will be a bit cold for a while between us and the new governments of those nations, at least Tunisia and Egypt. I don't think Libya or Bahrain will actually get there, as far as an overthrow will go. We supported the governments that the people just overthrew. It'll take a while for people to get over that, I'm guessing. The more we openly support the new governments, when they get them, the better things will be.
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oldpbnoob wrote:Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 3:53pm
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Oil prices are spiking considerably already. That'll have a definite and relatively immediate economic impact. As it stands, while this is significant, what's more important is where protests AREN'T happening- particularly Saudi Arabia. If things start brewing up there, I expect it would end up unfolding less like Egypt and more like Libya. The Saudi monarchy has nothing to fall back upon if they lose power. I'm concerned that this will galvanize pan-Arab Islamism. Idon't think the most significant effects of this will be felt for some years yet. This IS a game changer for the middle east- the people have realized their power both within their nations and collectively in the region. But it's going to go horribly, horribly wrong in some cases- again, witness Libya. Not sure yet what the foreign policy ramifications are going to be... ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 4:00pm
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 4:04pm
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That's all well and good. Some will be motivated by factors other than material wealth. Some will decide that the crumbs they get are no longer enough to buy them off. Others will simply go with the tide. Others will see the chance to gain real power. I'm not confident that Saudi is immune to this by any means. Not if Bahrain has seen violent uprisings. That place is rich as hell too. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 5:09pm
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I got the impression that a lot of the uprisings were as much for lack of jobs/wealth etc as they were for democracy. Seems like the call for democratic reform is veiling the real motivation. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 5:12pm
That reminded me of this: |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 6:14pm
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http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/21/live-blogging-north-africa-middle-east-protests/?hpt=T1 - This is madness . ------------- 
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 6:19pm
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I just saw the Libyans ordered the air force to bomb protesters. The pilots defected and took the planes to Malta where they're seeking asylum. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/21/libya-pilots-flee-to-malta - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/21/libya-pilots-flee-to-malta
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 6:23pm
A couple of them did. Other reports, and photos of some of the fatalities I've seen make it quite plausible that bombings have in fact been carried out. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 8:50pm
| Jesus. I figured as I hadn't heard of any bombing that this was the first incident. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 11:00pm
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Yep, they happened. Quadaffi's (sic) son says that they were trying to blow up gov't ammo depots before the protesters could take them, but wound up missing their mark. Knowing the Libyan dictatorship's past moves, I'm prone to say that they're full of excrement.
Egypt's protests and change came about mainly due to the educated middle class getting fed up with paying for school and paying taxes only to see unemployment and no benefits from the gov't. While the Muslim Brotherhood may get some sort of headway from the ouster of the old regime, I don't think they'll have the backing of the poor that they need unless the middle class doesn't act quickly (just look at the Bolshevik revolution for a parallel). Tunisia has more of an opportunity to become slightly more fundamentalist, but not by much. Tunis and its surroundings have always benefited greatly from trade with Europe and I doubt that thousands of years of surviving off of not pissing off your trade partners will anchor them in a stance that if not exactly "pro-west" will be far from the extremism we see in the middle east. I'd like to see the UN step into Libya and put Quadaffi on trial for crimes against humanity, but then again, that's like saying "I'd like a million dollars" and have it just happen. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 11:27pm
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Hopefully this will spark something exciting here. |
Posted By: Hysteria
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 12:14am
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An observation: The first people into a market, area or situation are usually the first to master/exploit said market or situation. Microsoft was the first into the PC market and thus mastered it. Nintendo was the first into the console market and thus mastered it. Ford was the first into the mass-produced automobile market and thus mastered it. Every aforementioned company, while not currently as great as they were at one time, were the first into their market and were the best at what they did; they mastered their respective areas. This is the nature of man; first figure out, then conquer. That said, the following baffles me: Africa is the accepted continent of the origin of our species. This is a fact. Africa was the first into the market that which is being human. Yet, still to this day they have yet to understand what it means to be human (i.e. civilized). This confuses me. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 3:06am
| How high were you Hysteria when you wrote that? |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 7:27am
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 9:24am
They were "advanced" for a long time. Simply look at the Ancient Egyptians, the Kingdom of Kush, and Aksum. One must remember that resources dictate how rapidly a civilization can flourish and for how long rather than simply being there the longest. We know now that the Sahara was once a lush, tropical area which was inhabited by hunter-gatherers for thousands of years before the climate changed turning it to a desert. Perhaps, had it not changed, the Sahara would have been the cradle of civilization rather than the Fertile Crescent of the mid-east. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 10:27am
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But Africa isn't exactly resource poor is it? Some of the richest deposits of gold, silver, and iron are abundant there arent they? There are still vast forests there as well. What resources did Europe have that Africa did not? ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 10:31am
White people. ------------- 
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 11:30am
Who is defining "civilized humanity?" Because essentially what this says is "Why don't African countries act like Anglo-Saxon countries?"
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 11:58am
  For those of you who obviously haven't read it and have little concept of history beyond the US and Western Europe. |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 12:02pm
| It's a good read. A little heavy on the environmental determinism for me, but still worthy of analysis. |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 12:27pm
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: DaveEllis
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 1:19pm
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Is there a certain personality trait that many dictators possess...I mean besides the blatant narcissism like an actual psychological deficiency. I mean they seem to be raving lunatics for the most part, Gadhafi being a great example.
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Posted By: jerseypaint
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 2:15pm
Europe has few natural resources, so they either conquered countries that had resources or traded with them. In Africa's case, they were colonized and stripped of their human and natural resources. Kind of hard to generate a thriving economy and build "civilized" infrastructure when you have nothing of worth because its all been taken from you. ------------- 
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 5:32pm
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I'll second the recommendation to read Guns, Germs and Steel. One of the most educational and yet easy to read books I've ever picked up. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 22 February 2011 at 5:53pm
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I refuse to get my information from anywhere other than pretty looking youtube videos. -------------
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Posted By: Hysteria
Date Posted: 23 February 2011 at 12:17am
I wasn't, I was just completely wasted, haha. |