US "Kill Teams" in Afghanistan
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Topic: US "Kill Teams" in Afghanistan
Posted By: Gatyr
Subject: US "Kill Teams" in Afghanistan
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 1:03pm
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http://www.newser.com/story/115070/inside-the-afghan-kill-teams-four-month-killing-spree.html%5dLink - http://www.newser.com/story/115070/inside-the-afghan-kill-teams-four-month-killing-spree.html]Link Just a heads up, there's a link to the Rolling Stone piece on that page, and there are some pretty gruesome (by normal standards) pictures in the article. Don't open those up with your family/friends around. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 1:15pm
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I saw that a few days ago on Drudge...
Amazing what humans can do to other humans and feel no shame or remorse, and even memorialize it and create "trophy's" of the brutality. Course I've never been in a warzone before, and I would imagine it changes you to a degree. ------------- They tremble at my name... 
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 1:31pm
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The purported killing of civilians is bad... the actual killing of them is much worse, and if / when they get found guilty, they need to get what's coming to them.
But don't ever judge someone for having gallows humour / coping mechanisms. ------------- 
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Posted By: DaveEllis
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 1:39pm
This goes well beyond that, posing with a dead body as if it were a buck is past any normal behavior.
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Linus wrote:Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 1:52pm
Not speaking to that aspect, which clearly is wrong, but of the countless comments I've seen about soldier cheering when an enemy is blown up, etc etc Heck, let's go back to the WikiLeaks video of last year-ish where you can hear the pilots noticeably happy when they get a kill... there were people that was disgusted at what they were saying... people that will never have to deal with death on a daily basis. You're in EMS. You know what is said at times. If an EMT or Paramedic takes a picture posing with a body, they deserve what's coming to them. But that's about the extent of it. Doing some of the things done doesn't make you have a "disregard for human life"... infact, it MAKES you human. -------------
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Posted By: DaveEllis
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 2:17pm
In the heat of the moment when you are down to basic instincts and its killed or be killed I can understand things happen and that is fine. But after the fact to be posing with a dead body or using shears to cut off a finger is a whole different realm.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 2:18pm
| Linus, HUGE difference. Gallows humour is one thing, being disturbed to the level of running over children after baiting them in front of the vehicle with candy....huge difference. They have psychological problems, and they're only going to get worse with the lack of care there is. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 6:26pm
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Warfare is brutality, plain and simple. Since man first took the life of another man a 'trophy' of that victory has been taken. Roman soldiers took trophys, medevil and rennesance(sp) warriors took trophys usually a head on a stake, modern man, as well as barbarian warriors (scalping was a european paying for confirmed kills of other europeans in North America). 20th century wars have all had trophys of some form, WW1 French Troops kept the skulls of Germans they found among the shell craters of Verdun, WW2 American Marines put the skulls of Japamese on display as trophys, the Vietnam 'ears' is not a rumor.
Warfare brings out the inhumanity in man, and unchecked by the chain of command will lead to excess. Somewhere somehow these troops percieved that command condoned these actions in some way, means, manner, or form. Or simply the barbarity we have deep within us came out. Man is a preditory specis, and when he kills in warfare his deep primal need for a trophy will at times come out. And those who have seen the face of war, the instants of barbarity in the face of civilization understand more than anyone else can comprehend. I do not condone the actions, but more than understand where it came from. ------------- 
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 6:44pm
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I also question the definition of 'atrocity'. The killing of helpless civilians in war is an atrocity, the genocide of any racial or religious group by a government is an atrocity, the killing of a criminal as punishment for a crime is an atrocity (by current definition). But as FE states the killing of a human fetus is not seen as an atrocity, baffles many in the way it is defended by those who see the death of another human (who managed to cross the 'goal line') in certian manners as an atrocity.
Abortion can be seen as an atrocity to many, based on their belief system, I as one who has taken life, in a socially 'approved' manner, does question the taking of the life of an innocent human fetus, based on the stopping of a human heart, if it looks like a human, anyone who can kill that fetus out of hand medically is no better than those who perform any attrocity against his fellow man in war. Genocide or Holocaust, abortion is no differant, but another way man 'legalized' the stopping of a beating heart (who can not defend itself, now how easy is that). Man is a predator, can and does show barbarity in many forms, and then can justify that barbarity for the means needed, when convienient. -------------
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 6:49pm
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So women shouldn't menstruate and waste eggs, and men shouldn't EVER climax for any reason except procreation? Where do you draw the line of what's alive, since eggs and cells certainly are.
And OS, this isn't just trophys. This is far, far beyond trophies. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 7:57pm
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This isn't trophies. This is cold blooded murder, and the celebration thereof. There is no place for these scum in any professional military. Never mind the terrible effect such actions have on the trust of the locals, and consequently the integrity of the force as a whole and the concordant impact on the mission. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 8:14pm
| We need more soldiers like this. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 9:57pm
What a miserable fail of a troll post. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 11:57pm
| The more this stuff happens. The more insurgents we spawn. More insurgents means more casualties. More casualties means more public outcry. So hopefully they come home faster. Or we pull a stunt and enact the draft. Kids getting killed who volunteered, is entirely different than kids getting killed who did not. If the draft is enacted, their will be protest in every city. |
Posted By: Snipa69
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 12:00am
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Wait wait....so because I volunteered my life means less to people than that of a person who was hypothetically drafted? I know I shouldn't feed the troll on this one but I can't help it now. ------------- http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/857/sig9ac6cs1mj.jpg - |
Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 12:16am
Or they can just not make their job harder than it needs to be, and finish sooner with better results and fewer deaths all around. All, the draft is never coming back. The military as a whole is currently downsizing. Forgive me for invoking jmac, but why release all of this pent up retard all of a sudden? ------------- 
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 12:18am
Never said worth less. But their would be more public outcry, if people were getting killed who did not volunteer. While fighting a war that we have no idea why, we are.
Teenager drives drunk, kills themself. Their would be some anger towards who provided the booze etc. But mostly sadness.
Teenager gets killed by drunk driver. Their would be public outcry in the community. A thousand facebook pages etc.
Both had the same value of life, but how they died is different. Which in return would spark different and stronger emotions.
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 12:29am
You honestly think we will win this war? We are not fighting a nation. We are fighting an idea, religous based on top of it.
We kill one insurgent, we spawn 2 new ones. We kill one civilian we spawn 10 insurgents.
Yes we need to educate the kids, and brainwash them to our ideals. But when they see their parents who believe in their cause, get blown up. They go the other direction.
We have already lost, they dragged us into a land war; just like they wanted to. They are going to beat us economically, and they already have.
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Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 12:34am
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That was kinda my point. The fewer civilians we murder and desecrate, the fewer insurgents we will have to fight.
But your approach is apparently to murder as many civilians as possible to make the region even more volatile so that more Americans can die sooner so that public opinion will be turned against the government and force them to withdraw ASAP. Keep it up, tiger  -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 12:42am
But the whole point of this war is to eradicate the insurgents right? Do you think it's possible for us to eliminate everyone who goes against out beliefs?
As soon as we leave the country will go back to what it was. Might was well do it now before we bankrupt ourselves. Which in the end is what they want to see. They will all be cheering when they see the rioting and chaos, that is going to spread all across this country. Because they know they had a part in taking down the 2nd roman empire.
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Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 12:52am
No, the point is to help build their country into a place where people don't feel the need to resort to extremism. Not necessarily by eliminating all of the insurgents, but more importantly building a society that is not conducive to extremists. If we were there solely to kill insurgents, we would be doing things far differently. -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 1:02am
So all we need to do, is tell them not to follow the Koran in depth enough; to go against our beliefs?
Seems plausible.........
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Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 1:03am
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You really are clueless, aren't you? -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 1:07am
Inform me please. I have heard estimates that this "war" will take 100 hundred years. Do you agree? What time frame do you think we are looking at?
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Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 1:09am
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Another 15.23(repeating, of course) months. -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 1:17am
Wager?
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Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 1:22am
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Sure, let me know when 100 years has passed. -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 6:25am
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I was thinking more hi-low of your guess. |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 2:39pm
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I'm tired of wars in the middle east. Can't we pick a better spot next time? These guys deserve whatever they get. The "heat of the moment" doesn't apply to people who are trained to deal with what they are dealing with. There was no excuse for it in Vietnam, and there's no excuse for it here. To in any way justify what these guys did is to spit in the face of the millions of servicemen and women in the past century who have done what they did WITHOUT sinking to the level of inhuman mutilation.
War is hell, for sure, but that doesn't give our guys a free pass on professional behavior.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 3:12pm
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Brihard, question. Have you ever been in a firefight that just plain got out of control? With the new urban enviornment and the who can tell who aspect of this insurgency, I believe that excesses do and will continue to happen, based on the circumstances of the location.
A long time ago and far, far, away I too witnessed a firefight that totally got out of control, the fear and confusion finally got the civilians to begin to come out from hiding and run to and fro across the firezone, and a few were hit, by both our and VC fire. I also witnessed men who under the stress and strain of continued combat with no true goal, begin to do things that were very questionable concerning combatants and non-combatants. Our very controversial 'Phoenix' program where it was the mission to target high level VC cadre, and co-operating locals and make their extermination as messy as possible to convince the locals that we were more in charge than the local guerilla. SO there is a history of 'approved' and 'unapproved' action to further the mission, and the intent of higher sometimes gets muddled in the idiocy of warfare without true purpose or goal. My Lai was my generations exercise in frustration and loss of control of the troops based on what the troops go through day after day. My Lai was not the only example, but the only one that got national coverage. These 'kill teams' are not unique in any conflict, when the soldier loses sight of the mission, and the CoC does little to prevent excesses. Moral is a fragile issue in combat, as in my day, seeing no sense or purpose in a mission that will be on going with no end in sight frustrates to the point of insanity, or the momentary loss of perspective. It is time to win or leave or these issues will contine to dwell in the minds of the troops returning for theit next rotation, and the next. -------------
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Posted By: Dazed
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 3:58pm
Eggs and sperm certainly aren't on their way to becoming an independent person without human intervention. Fetuses are. Women can't help but menstruate, and men will ejaculate regularly, whether they're awake or not. If someone of either sex isn't doing these things, it will lead to medical problems. The situations in which pregnancy leads to medical problems generally fall within most pro-lifers' "medical emergency" clauses in their stance. That argument was way out there for you Choop. I'm astonished you made it. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 8:38pm
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I went to go see Battle: LA with some buddies. One of my buddies has done multiple tours in Iraq. He has admitted he has PTSD, but this was the first time I have witnessed it. While we were watching the opening scenes when the marines landed, I saw him rocking back and forth. And time passed it became more violent. A few minutes passed, and I see him jump over the rail. (The rail infront of the seats). And walked out of the movie rapidly. I waited a few minutes, then went out to see where he went. He was in the lobby, basically told me he just needed to take a breather.
It was pretty sad. His MOS was Public Affairs. He knew the BS that they were feeding his own guys, and the public. But yet he still had to ride around waiting to get blown up.
So I am grateful I was not put in a position, that I thought I needed money bad enough, to join a combat MOS.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 10:34pm
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PTSD is a demon hiding among the pleasantries of the mind. The only real cure is time as the memories slowly receed into the depths of memory. When I went to one of the first screenings of Saving Private Ryan I watched a 80plus year old walk out shaking, why did he go to the movie we can ask, but I believe I know why.
There are times I too relive events, once playing paintball my bud in front of me went down shot in the chest, I grabbed his web gear and began dragging him out of the line of fire, instinctual, then realized what was happening and had to take a break. Its been 40 years, and there are times in dreams it was only yesterday. At the reunions all you see is the 20 year old, not the 60+ year old standing there talking to you. We relive the fun and comraderie of the time, yet undernath is the horror you shared. We toast for those gone but never forgotten, pack the memories away in that special place, and pray that the lid stays shut. Atrocity in war is defined as what the culture of the soldier accepts as a social norm, even in an unsocial enviornment. What an Afghan sees as a normal facet of war, we may find defined as an atrocity (beheading hostages for instance). Soldiers will descend into the depths of what he is exposed to day by day, I was no angel 40 years ago, and I see no real differance in the soldiers over there today, except the color of the uniform. 20 or so years from now when the guns go silent for these young men and they retire or have moved on, the demons can and will arise, there are those who need to share and those who fight that battle solo in their mind. Each will find a peace in how they handle the memories, the tears of a 90 year old WW2 vet talking about friends lost, will be no differant than the Afghan or Iraq vet 40 years from now. You never forget, I live by the credo of "Twas the Best of times, Twas the worst of times" I remmember the good times and still fear the bad times when the memories or dreams return. -------------
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:26pm
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Thread cleaned. FE, I totally get what you're trying to say- but here isn't the place to say it. Its not a 'comparative morality' thread, its a fairly specific topic. Yours would be enough for several whole discussions on their own. I cleaned this thread not in an attempt to stifle you or your opinions, but in an effort to prevent two massive discussions from happening in the same place. Start another thread. If your fans derail that one, I'll clean that too. Respect works both ways gentlemen. ------------- ? |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:41pm
There is quite a bit of research trying to figure out exactly what causes PTSD, and they're still not really sure. It's interests me a lot, so I try to read as much as I can about it, but understand what the hell neurologists are saying half the time can be difficult. It's one of those things still, sadly, allusive to our understanding.
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