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President arms drug cartels

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Topic: President arms drug cartels
Posted By: Mack
Subject: President arms drug cartels
Date Posted: 15 June 2011 at 4:17pm
Not really . . . I just felt like using a hyperbolic title that misrepresented the referenced article like other people do occasionally.

I do however, think that some serious questions need to be asked and answered (honestly) by the DOJ.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20110615/ts_dailybeast/14722_gunrunningstingblowsuphousehearingsonatfsfastandfurious - Link

Gun-Running Sting Blows Up: House Hearings on ATF's Fast and Furious



John Solomon Wed Jun 15, 2:16 am ET

NEW YORK – Gun-Running Sting Blows Up: House Hearings on ATFs Fast and FuriousThe ATF's Operation Fast and Furious sparked outrage by allowing hundreds of weapons from U.S. gun shops to be trafficked to Mexican drug gangs—and left one border agent dead. With House hearings today, John Solomon exclusively traces the origin of the sting to the Justice Department, which originally denied involvement.

For months, a mystery has engulfed the http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/dailybeast/ts_dailybeast/storytext/14722_gunrunningstingblowsuphousehearingsonatfsfastandfurious/41867172/SIG=12q7punhb/*http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-05-11/immigrations-surprise-villain/ - U.S. southern border and Mexico —what suddenly caused federal agents to abandon years of practice and knowingly let suspected straw buyers for Mexican drug gangs walk off with semiautomatic weapons from American gun shops?

The answer leads to previously undisclosed instructions given by higher-ups inside the Obama Justice Department, which originally denied any role in the burgeoning controversy, The Daily Beast has learned.

The U.S. government's http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/dailybeast/ts_dailybeast/storytext/14722_gunrunningstingblowsuphousehearingsonatfsfastandfurious/41867172/SIG=13glbf4uu/*http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/us-weapons-fall-into-hands-of-mexican-gunrunners/risky-strategy/ - Fast and Furious operation —which was designed to build criminal cases against Mexican gun traffickers but went awry—has stirred debate in two countries after revelations that frontline agents vehemently objected to their supervisors' order to knowingly let guns be trafficked by suspected straw buyers and that hundreds of the guns they were ordered to "let walk" ended up being used in subsequent crimes, including murders.

The issue prompted two investigations in Congress, outrage among Mexican legislators, anger among residents in crime-beleaguered communities on the border—and even forced President Obama to suggest "serious mistakes" may have been made.

Before the gun-running sting began in Phoenix in late 2009, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives agents were trained to build cases quickly against people who were acting as straw buyers, purchasing cheap legal guns at U.S. gun shops and then transferring them to others who would traffic them to http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/dailybeast/ts_dailybeast/storytext/14722_gunrunningstingblowsuphousehearingsonatfsfastandfurious/41867172/SIG=1301q9506/*http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/hundreds-of-mexican-gang-members-arrested/crime/ - Mexican gangs . Agents have told Congress they wanted to interdict weapons quickly when they fell into the hands of suspected straw buyers and despised the idea of "letting guns walk" outside their control.

“The department’s leadership allowed the ATF to implement this flawed strategy, fully aware of what was taking place on the ground,” Grassley and Issa's report concludes.

But ATF supervisors and local federal prosecutors in the Fast and Furious operation approved a different approach in late 2009, specifically instructing agents along the Arizona border not to interdict the weapons and instead to let the straw buyers move the guns into the system in hopes they would show up in crimes on both sides of the border and help federal prosecutors build bigger cases against the Mexican drug gangs.

The operation went on for 15 months, and ATF officials now concede they let more than 1,700 weapons fall into the hands of the straw buyers, with nearly 800 showing up in criminal activity on both sides of the border. Two of those guns were found at the scene where a http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/dailybeast/ts_dailybeast/storytext/14722_gunrunningstingblowsuphousehearingsonatfsfastandfurious/41867172/SIG=131qrdplb/*http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/arizona-seeks-more-natl-guard-troops/help-wanted/ - U.S. border agent was murdered and more than 190 turned up in Mexican crimes as well.

To date, blame has rested mostly with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives supervisors who approved the strategy in Arizona and Washington. The Justice Department also has directed that the tactic of "letting guns walk"—meaning allowing straw buyers to move guns with the government's knowledge—should no longer be used.

But on Wednesday, The Daily Beast has learned, congressional investigators will disclose that just weeks before ATF supervisors approved the Fast and Furious operation and its controversial tactics, senior Justice Department officials sent a memo to prosecutors and agents on the front lines of the border wars urging that they go beyond their traditional tactics of interdicting guns being purchased by straw buyers and try to make cases against the drug gangs themselves.

"Given the national scope of this issue, merely seizing firearms through interdiction will not stop firearms trafficking to Mexico. We must identify, investigate, and eliminate the sources of illegally trafficked firearms and the networks that transport them," the office of then Deputy Attorney General David Ogden wrote in an October 2009 memo marked law-enforcement sensitive.

The memo was prepared in connection with a previously unknown high-level Justice Department meeting in which representatives of key law-enforcement agencies on the front lines of the border wars were summoned to discuss a new approach to combating border violence, according to government officials familiar with the document.

Within days, the memo from Ogden's office was being distributed inside the ATF office in Phoenix, where supervisors quickly launched Operation Fast and Furious.

Government officials confirmed the memo's contents and the discussions about broadening the border strategy beyond interdiction but insisted the memo provided no specific guidance authorizing the specific tactics of letting the guns "walk." Attorney General Eric Holder has said he did not know about those tactics at the time and has asked the department's internal watchdog, the inspector general, to investigate what happened.

The memo, however, provides important new information and context to the events that have led to a growing controversy in Congress, where Republicans led by Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa and House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa have collected extensive evidence that ATF agents vehemently objected to letting the guns walk but were overruled by supervisors, who let hundreds of a weapons a month flow to straw buyers even as violence escalated inside Mexico in 2010.

On Wednesday, Grassley and Issa will release a joint report concluding that Justice officials in Washington were ultimately responsible for letting a well-intentioned gun-trafficking strategy go awry.

"The department's leadership allowed the ATF to implement this flawed strategy, fully aware of what was taking place on the ground," their report concludes, according to an early copy obtained by The Daily Beast.

"This hapless plan allowed the guns in question to disappear out of the agency's view. As a result, this chain of events inevitably placed the guns in the hands of violent criminals. ATF would only see these guns again after they turned up at a crime scene. Tragically, many of these recoveries involved loss of life," the report concludes.

Democrats on Issa's committee and defenders of the Justice Department are expected to mount a technical defense, arguing that pressing law-enforcement officials on the border to try new strategies did not specifically address letting guns walks, a decision that to date appears to have been made by the U.S. Attorneys Office and ATF supervisors in Phoenix, along with ATF officials in Washington.

John Solomon is executive editor of the http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/dailybeast/ts_dailybeast/storytext/14722_gunrunningstingblowsuphousehearingsonatfsfastandfurious/41867172/SIG=11125ihli/*http://www.publicintegrity.org/ - Center for Public Integrity .


So the Democrats would consider putting guns in the hands of Mexican drug cartels to be okay but want further restrictions upon the rights of U.S citizens to keep and bear arms.  (More hyperbole--I just couldn't resist.)  On a serious note, this does throw some doubt onto all the claims that U.S. gun owners are arming (indirectly) the cartels through our insistence on exercising our rights.


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Replies:
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 June 2011 at 4:26pm
The tactic seemed reasonable enough - Allow the sales to take place, track the buyers, see where the guns go, and make arrests when the further transactions take place in order to nab the higher-ups in the cartel system. 

Except for a tactic like that to work, you really ought, you know, follow through and actually make those arrests and busts at some point and not let the operation grow out of control. Because now people are killing people with the guns they were supposed to be tracking. 




Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 15 June 2011 at 4:33pm
uhm, he did allow them to buy guns illegally, which were then used to kill boarder agents and civilians... So your title was actually true.
 
 
How Holder hasn't been charged with crimes yet is astounding... This justice department is a travesty of justice.


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 15 June 2011 at 7:54pm
I have to point out what a horribly constructed article that is. They were too lazy to find a right place for the picture, so they just paste it right in the first sentence? Thats painful to look at.


Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 16 June 2011 at 9:02pm
What do you expect from an agency that used cattle trailers, to transport agents.


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 7:33am
So this weekend the head of the ATF testified (without his corrupt DOJ lawyer present...) under oath, and destroyed the justice department.
 
This whole thing lays at the feet of the democrats.
 
Even on page 16 of the stimulus bill, $10,000,000 was used for the gunrunner program! So now watch as the cockroches scramble and try to pin the blame on some little guy...
 
http://readthestimulus.org/hr1_final.pdf - http://readthestimulus.org/hr1_final.pdf
 
 
This goes right to the white house.
 
Why was watergate so big of a deal, when people actually died in this travesty?
 
Oh yeah... Democrats...
 
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/07/atf-chief-testifies-before-congress-in-secret-over-controversial-gun-program.html - http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/07/atf-chief-testifies-before-congress-in-secret-over-controversial-gun-program.html
 
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 9:13am
Well, at least Holder didn't know anything about this...
 
Oh wait.
 
http://www.justice.gov/ag/speeches/2009/ag-speech-090402.html - http://www.justice.gov/ag/speeches/2009/ag-speech-090402.html
 
Maybe if he says he just read a teleprompter, and he actually didn't realize he was saying what he said. Then we can discuss the definition of "is" again.
 
"The topic that has been addressed over the past two days could not be more important – the development of an arms trafficking prosecution and enforcement strategy on both sides of the border.  

 I would like to thank the Mexican and U.S. experts who have worked so hard on this issue.  On our side, Secretary Napolitano and I are committed to putting the resources in place to increase our attack on arms trafficking into Mexico

 Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels.  My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner, DEA is adding 16 new positions on the border, as well as mobile enforcement teams, and the FBI is creating a new intelligence group focusing on kidnapping and extortion.  DHS is making similar commitments, as Secretary Napolitano will detail.

 But as today’s conference has emphasized, the problem of arms trafficking will not be stopped at the border alone.  Rather, as our experts emphasized, this is a problem that must be met as part of a comprehensive attack against the cartels – an attack in depth, on both sides of the border, that focuses on the leadership and assets of the cartel.  This is the type of full-bore, prosecution-driven approach that the U.S. Department of Justice took to dismantle La Cosa Nostra – once the most powerful organized crime group operating in the United States.  
 With partners like those we have here today, I am confident that together, we will defeat these narcotics cartels in exactly the same way.  I am proud to stand with you, and to join you in this fight.  Thank you again for inviting me here."

 
Interesting how he "didn't know" and yet trumpets his involvement in a public speech in Mexico...
 
What a liar.
 
http://tucsoncitizen.com/view-from-baja-arizona/2011/06/29/atf-fast-and-furious-goat-somewhere-between-holder-and-melson/ - http://tucsoncitizen.com/view-from-baja-arizona/2011/06/29/atf-fast-and-furious-goat-somewhere-between-holder-and-melson/
 
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Donald Blake
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
This whole thing lays at the feet of the democrats.

 


Honest question, FE:  Can you name anything that the Democratic party stands for, or has done, that you agree with or support?

Anything at all?


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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 5:28pm
Clinton getting a BJ in the oval office was pretty cool.


Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 5:33pm
If I remember correctly (to busy to search ATM), wasn't part of the controversy here that the government was using these weapons sales to fluff statistics about American weapons sales to Mexico and push a gun control agenda?

Not saying that gun control was the specific purpose, but a side effect.

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Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 5:41pm
Anyone else thinks it's funny that FE compares this to Watergate rather than to Iran-Contra?

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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 5:49pm
Sorry I know this is totally unrelated but reading some of it made me think of this:



Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 5:54pm
Speaking of, I was listening to the radio this morning and heard "Hi, I'm Oliver North and when I'm at Fort Leonard Wood, I listen to 98.9 The Fort."

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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by GroupB GroupB wrote:

Anyone else thinks it's funny that FE compares this to Watergate rather than to Iran-Contra?

They like to pretend that did not happen.


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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 12 July 2011 at 9:13am
Iran-contra, is very different, especially when you have muslims who have taken hostage our people.
 
That wasn't a "new" thing at all...
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War
 
 
The entire goal of project gunrunner was to catch the mexicans who were buying our weapons before they left the gun shows... Fast and furious was the plan to let them take them into mexico so they could "get to the high ups and take them down".
 
gunrunner had been going on since bush was in office.
 
Holder said this in April of 2009
 
Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels.  My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner, DEA is adding 16 new positions on the border, as well as mobile enforcement teams, and the FBI is creating a new intelligence group focusing on kidnapping and extortion.
 
 
Clearly he isn't talking about gunrunner, as that didn't need "mobile" enforcment teams as they just arrested the guys when they left the gun dealers with the weapons... And that wasn't "new". Fast and furious started at that time... Connect the dots.
 
Except they didn't take them down, instead they let them take the weapons to mexico and wreak havoc  so it would make a news splash that "American" weapons were fueling the drug war, so that Obama could crack down on gun laws (with cause).
 
http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/issa-grassley-blast-holder-in-letter-after-secret-meeting-with-atfs-ken-melson/ - http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/issa-grassley-blast-holder-in-letter-after-secret-meeting-with-atfs-ken-melson/
 
He knew, Holder knew, and they planned it. (they are brilliant if you didn't know that...). Now Holder is lying about his involvement... (they even used stimulus money to pay for the program).
 
Oh and lookie
 
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/11/rifle.sales.reporting/index.html - http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/11/rifle.sales.reporting/index.html
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 12 July 2011 at 9:55am
Methinks FE is misinformed about the Iran-Contra scandal or he chooses once again to remain blissfully unaware.

Also, how Oliver North is not rotting away in a jail cell is beyond me. I understand the circumstances but the fact they played out that way is just criminal.


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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 12 July 2011 at 11:02am
This does have a bit of an Iran-Contra air about it. I don't think it's quite on that scale yet because this Fast/Furious thing has managed to stay contained to one continent, at the very least. 


Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 12 July 2011 at 11:56am
That and the CIA isn't knowingly allowing massive shipments of cocaine into the country. Definitely closer to Iran-Contra than Watergate though. That was just a poor attempt to make his political party appear less guilty than his opponents'.

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Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 12 July 2011 at 7:13pm
What was the drug documentary that focused a lot on Iran-Contra? I watched it once, but can't remember its name. Don't think it was The Union...

The War on Drugs: The Great White American Fear or something like that? I think that was it.


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irc.esper.net
#paintball


Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 12 July 2011 at 7:17pm
I think your google-fu is weak.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1033467/ - American Drug War: The Last White Hope


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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 12 July 2011 at 8:06pm
The left/right argument lol.  I see that the sheep are still drinking koolaid from a beer bong.  It must stink to drink what you're force-fed through a tiny funnel.


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 15 July 2011 at 6:15pm
bump lol


Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 July 2011 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

The left/right argument lol.  I see that the sheep are still drinking kooaid from a beer bong.  It must stink to drink what you're force-fed through a tiny funnel.


I don't see anyone in this thread who posted in support of the outcome of the operation.


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 15 July 2011 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

The left/right argument lol.  I see that the sheep are still drinking kooaid from a beer bong.  It must stink to drink what you're force-fed through a tiny funnel.


I don't see anyone in this thread who posted in support of the outcome of the operation.
 
I don't see how your response pertains to my comment.


Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 16 July 2011 at 8:53am
It just didn't look like there was much left/right arguing going on in this thread. It looked like everyone was in loose-based agreement that this operation was a dangerous failure. 


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 16 July 2011 at 6:03pm
I understand to which depth that you guys go into subjects here but I feel that there is enough left/right slammage in this thread to qualify my statement.  The 2 party system no longer exisits as text books would describe them.  It's a certifiable joke.  My resource for my info is a little thing called reality and open eyes.


Posted By: Donald Blake
Date Posted: 16 July 2011 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I understand to which depth that you guys go into subjects here but I feel that there is enough left/right slammage in this thread to qualify my statement.  The 2 party system no longer exisits as text books would describe them.  It's a certifiable joke.  My resource for my info is a little thing called reality and open eyes.
 
Well, I don't know about text books, but if it isn't a two-party system, what then would you call it?


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Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 16 July 2011 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I understand to which depth that you guys go into subjects here but I feel that there is enough left/right slammage in this thread to qualify my statement.  The 2 party system no longer exisits as text books would describe them.  It's a certifiable joke.  My resource for my info is a little thing called reality and open eyes.

And what events lead you to believe that what you say is reality?


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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 16 July 2011 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by Donald Blake Donald Blake wrote:

Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I understand to which depth that you guys go into subjects here but I feel that there is enough left/right slammage in this thread to qualify my statement.  The 2 party system no longer exisits as text books would describe them.  It's a certifiable joke.  My resource for my info is a little thing called reality and open eyes.
 
Well, I don't know about text books, but if it isn't a two-party system, what then would you call it?


Rep or Dem, it doesn't matter. They both play the same game.


Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 16 July 2011 at 8:39pm
But parties aren't defined by what "game" they play.

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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 16 July 2011 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Originally posted by Donald Blake Donald Blake wrote:

Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I understand to which depth that you guys go into subjects here but I feel that there is enough left/right slammage in this thread to qualify my statement.  The 2 party system no longer exisits as text books would describe them.  It's a certifiable joke.  My resource for my info is a little thing called reality and open eyes.
 
Well, I don't know about text books, but if it isn't a two-party system, what then would you call it?


Rep or Dem, it doesn't matter. They both play the same game.
What would I call it?  A joke


Posted By: Donald Blake
Date Posted: 16 July 2011 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:


Rep or Dem, it doesn't matter. They both play the same game.
What would I call it?  A joke
 
Would either of you care to be just a tad more specific?


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Posted By: Koolit32
Date Posted: 16 July 2011 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I understand to which depth that you guys go into subjects here but I feel that there is enough left/right slammage in this thread to qualify my statement.  The 2 party system no longer exisits as text books would describe them.  It's a certifiable joke.  My resource for my info is a little thing called reality and open eyes.



Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 17 July 2011 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Koolit32 Koolit32 wrote:

Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I understand to which depth that you guys go into subjects here but I feel that there is enough left/right slammage in this thread to qualify my statement.  The 2 party system no longer exisits as text books would describe them.  It's a certifiable joke.  My resource for my info is a little thing called reality and open eyes.

I'm not quite this serious
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/04/military_veterans_suicide_042210w/ - http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/04/military_veterans_suicide_042210w/
but yeah.
 
But I'm really thinking that FOX and CNN need to keep our priorities funneled properly with top priority issues like Casey Anthony


Posted By: Donald Blake
Date Posted: 18 July 2011 at 1:49am
... but serious about what?

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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 18 July 2011 at 6:53am

Serious about life man.  Life



Posted By: Donald Blake
Date Posted: 18 July 2011 at 12:33pm
Ah.  Gotcha.
 
You gotta rage against the machine, man.  Right on.


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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 18 July 2011 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by Donald Blake Donald Blake wrote:

Ah.  Gotcha.
 
You gotta rage against the machine, man.  Right on.
 How did you guess?  Yeah I've got a couple of their CD's kicking around that may be being used as drink coasters.  I think that they really hit the nail on the head for what they where going for but I don't care for their angry disposition.  I'm a lover not a fighterHeartBig smile


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 26 September 2011 at 2:23pm
I'm curious...
 
Since the "charge" against the liberals who ran this program is that they were doing this for the sole purpose of putting more AMERICAN weapons in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, with the goal of saying "see, we need to crack down on the 2nd amendment as Merican guns are being used in a drug war"...
 
Which the Democrats are now scurrying away and laying blame on anyone they can while waving the "we know NOTHING" flag.
 
Then you read stories like this...
 
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/26/us-government-bought-and-sold-weapons-during-fast-and-furious-documents-show/ - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/26/us-government-bought-and-sold-weapons-during-fast-and-furious-documents-show/
 
What exactly WAS the point if they don't track the guns, and just let them go?
 
Don't say it was just an "oversight", there are way too many stories where this was clearly done on purpose. WITH our "stimulus" dollars no less...
 
What other reason would they have for doing this?


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 03 October 2011 at 11:08am
Major document dump late friday by Øbama... Hoping the media would'nt notice...
 
We will see if they investigate.
 
ØbamAA++ and Holder are caught in a lie...
 
 
and agents died...
 
 
When will the impeachment proceedings begin?
 
http://biggovernment.com/awrhawkins/2011/10/03/lies-more-lies-and-worse-lies-watergate-the-lewisnky-scandal-and-fast-and-furious/ - http://biggovernment.com/awrhawkins/2011/10/03/lies-more-lies-and-worse-lies-watergate-the-lewisnky-scandal-and-fast-and-furious/
 
 
 
 
Interesting use of "stimulus" funds, huh...
 
Included were 50 cal machine guns, rocket launchers, and more military weapons. I'm curious as to why this isn't a first tier national story, being repeated daily on the nightly news?


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 03 October 2011 at 12:11pm
Nice necro.


Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 03 October 2011 at 12:32pm
Things aren't repeated nightly on the news because, unlike biggovernment.com, americanthinker.com, etc, the news is not a propaganda machine


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Posted By: Daemien
Date Posted: 03 October 2011 at 2:23pm
I'm sorry but with the name of that film it sounds pretty fing racist to me. Also all the people that are dumping on the Democrats need to realize the Republicans aren't any better.  The Republicans are more "Do as I say not as I do" than anyone else. They want the world to do what they say and nothing else. They want programmed machines that will never argue. 


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 03 October 2011 at 2:41pm
Actually, the "news" is reporting it... Just not a first tier story status yet... And it won't be on the tv nightly news, as it doesn't fit the agenda.
 
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/white-house-releases-new-fast-and-furious-documents/ - http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/white-house-releases-new-fast-and-furious-documents/
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20114184-10391695.html - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20114184-10391695.html
 
http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0911/White_House_sends_Hill_Fast__Furious_docs_but_withholds_some.html - http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0911/White_House_sends_Hill_Fast__Furious_docs_but_withholds_some.html
 
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46592 - http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46592
 
 
 
 
Which I guess no one remembers this...
 
 
 
Which resulted in this...
 
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/01/27/white-house-to-push-gun-control.html - http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/01/27/white-house-to-push-gun-control.html
 
 
gotta get those statistics back up there...
 
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/ - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 03 October 2011 at 2:47pm
abc, cbs and fox are big into tin foil stock?Geek  tin foil tin foil everywhere.  All I can see is tin foil everywhere


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 04 October 2011 at 12:26pm
Holder suddenly CHANGES his story...
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html
 
So now the leader of our "justice" department has been busted lying...
 
"The Justice Department told CBS News that the officials in those emails were talking about a different case started before Eric Holder became Attorney General. And tonight they tell CBS News, Holder misunderstood that question from the committee - he did know about Fast and Furious - just not the details."
 
 
 Maybe Holder and ØbamAA++ were just working "under the radar"...
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392132/Obama-eyeing-gun-control-radar.html - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392132/Obama-eyeing-gun-control-radar.html
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 04 October 2011 at 2:16pm
And now a special prosecuter is called for...
 
Perjury! By the leader of our "justice" department! This goes all the way to Øbama, so you know he won't call for a special counsel!
 
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/04/house-republicans-to-request-special-counsel-to-probe-holder-on-fast-and/ - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/04/house-republicans-to-request-special-counsel-to-probe-holder-on-fast-and/
 
Will this damaging news be on the tv news tonight?


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 04 October 2011 at 3:51pm
White house loses their cool over Holder perjury!
 
SCREAMS and CUSSES at reporter for "random act of journalism"...
 
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/cbs-news-reporter-says-white-house-screamed-swore-her-over-fast-and-furious_595011.html - http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/cbs-news-reporter-says-white-house-screamed-swore-her-over-fast-and-furious_595011.html
 
 
2,000+ weapons JUST in fast and furious... Which according to the CBS reporter is NOT the only "program" that the government was doing...
 
under the radar of course...
 
love the liberal silence on this one...


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 04 October 2011 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


love the liberal silence on this one...

You're making enough noise to cover everyone.


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Posted By: Brian Fellows
Date Posted: 05 October 2011 at 12:39am
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Originally posted by Donald Blake Donald Blake wrote:

Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I understand to which depth that you guys go into subjects here but I feel that there is enough left/right slammage in this thread to qualify my statement.  The 2 party system no longer exisits as text books would describe them.  It's a certifiable joke.  My resource for my info is a little thing called reality and open eyes.
 
Well, I don't know about text books, but if it isn't a two-party system, what then would you call it?


Rep or Dem, it doesn't matter. They are both run by blood-drinking, reptilian shapeshifters from the planet Nibiru.

Fixed.


Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 05 October 2011 at 8:14am
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I understand to which depth that you guys go into subjects here but I feel that there is enough left/right slammage in this thread to qualify my statement.  The 2 party system no longer exisits as text books would describe them.  It's a certifiable joke.  My resource for my info is a little thing called reality and open eyes.

-citation needed


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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 05 October 2011 at 9:15am
I definitely still see two parties.

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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 05 October 2011 at 11:56am
CNN finally joins the story on AC360, and wow...
 
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2011/10/04/ac-eric-holder-fast-furious.cnn - http://cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2011/10/04/ac-eric-holder-fast-furious.cnn


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 05 October 2011 at 12:37pm
Funny, I Googled "fast and furious" last night when I saw this thread, and the first thing that came up was CNN.

I'm all for holding leaders accountable for their subordinate's actions, but when their subordinates clearly cross the line and there's pretty clear proof that it was unsanctioned, you're probably grasping at straws.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 06 October 2011 at 1:53pm
Ah, NO...
 
Holder knew, or else he is completely incompetent, or he can't read, as it was in his daily report for MONTHS... As was proved by the document dump last Friday... Try again.
 
Don't worry, ØbamAA++ is doubling down and now HE is lying as HE KNEW as well...
 
The plan was obvious as they were making new statistics that they could use to lock down gun buying here in the US by blaming guns getting to Mexico and used in a drug war... This is a typical liberal practice, of "the ends justify the means"... They lie, and manipulate while blaming others (bush did it...) and never take ownership for their decisions. Then fire little guys and put the blame on them...
 
Watch him in this video...
 
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/06/obama_holder_not_aware_of_what_was_happening_with_fast_and_furious.html - http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/06/obama_holder_not_aware_of_what_was_happening_with_fast_and_furious.html
 
Clearly he is lying, "i have been very clear" always precedes a lie with this guy...
 
The logic of what they were doing is obvious if  you look at it, this article covers the basics...
 
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/07/the_real_under_the_radar_target_of_operation_fast_and_furious.html - http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/07/the_real_under_the_radar_target_of_operation_fast_and_furious.html


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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 06 October 2011 at 8:11pm
I forgot that arguing with you is similar to cursing at the brick wall behind my monitor while coding.  Only, slightly less interesting.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 08 October 2011 at 1:06pm
Y'all can pick at FE personally all you want but this time the facts support him.  Between fast and furious and the Solyndra mess this is one dirty administration. 

Mackstrodomous will now make predictions:
  • With blood already in the water the press will slowly but surely turn on the administration as their desire for a liberal government loses to their desire to print scandalous news.
  • As a result of this more back door deals with questionable legality and high-level White House involvement will be discovered.
  • It will eventually be realized that this administration his highly corrupt but that in this case the corruption is self-serving as opposed to being quasi-justifiable as "for the national good."



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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 10 October 2011 at 12:29am
My bet is that when this issue is pushed, which it will be, it will backfire and cause a renewed push for gun control at the federal level. Officials will claim that the program was sound in theory and could have been effective if there was registration, or a new AWB, which Bush would have signed.


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 10 October 2011 at 1:00am
The "facts" support nothing.  All that's coming out right now is opinion.

I'm no huge Obama lover -- unless you compare him to the GOP's offerings; continuing the imperial presidency being one of his worst choices -- but the facts at this point boil down to Republicans pointing fingers.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 10 October 2011 at 9:57am
^ ^ ^  Try a little reading.  FE's links related to both situations list e-mail trails that, in the case of F&F, point to intentional obfuscation on the behalf of senior administration personnel (namely Holder) and on the Solyndra thing they point to a nasty relationship between the company (which helped fund the current President's last campaign), the administration and administration appointees who should have not been involved in the process of approving the company's (now defaulted) loan.

The situations get even more interesting/annoying/suspicious if you research beyond what FE has been posting.  (It's funny, even on topics where the facts support FE, he does a really bad job of selecting/researching/documenting his evidence.)


-------------


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 10 October 2011 at 10:52am
So wait... You want me to link more copy pasta to my posts?...
 
I read a ton, and only post a tiny amount as the TLDR crowd seems to dislike being informed...
 
This article pretty much covers most of ØbamAA++'s problems.
 
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/aimless_obama_walks_alone_OUgoMTkORRJioLl7B6ZYmN/0 - http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/aimless_obama_walks_alone_OUgoMTkORRJioLl7B6ZYmN/0
 
 
Fast and furious guns found in cartel leaders home.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20111009,0,6431788.story?track=rss - http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20111009,0,6431788.story?track=rss
 
Holder in BIG trouble...
 
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/09/new-subpoenas-prepared-in-fast-and-furious-probe/ - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/09/new-subpoenas-prepared-in-fast-and-furious-probe/
 
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FAST_AND_FURIOUS_ISSA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-10-09-16-42-32 - http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FAST_AND_FURIOUS_ISSA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-10-09-16-42-32
 
Or you could just read the stories on the Drudge report each day like I do...  They give an unbiased review of the media daily that will make anyone who reads it understand what is going on in the world...


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 10 October 2011 at 11:30am
the drudge report is real news?  I though that the cover of that book was made of tin foil.


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 10 October 2011 at 11:36am
And another thing pal.  Unless Wolf Blitzer reports on it, it's not real ok. 


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 10 October 2011 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

^ ^ ^  Try a little reading.  FE's links related to both situations list e-mail trails that, in the case of F&F, point to intentional obfuscation on the behalf of senior administration personnel (namely Holder) and on the Solyndra thing they point to a nasty relationship between the company (which helped fund the current President's last campaign), the administration and administration appointees who should have not been involved in the process of approving the company's (now defaulted) loan.

The situations get even more interesting/annoying/suspicious if you research beyond what FE has been posting.  (It's funny, even on topics where the facts support FE, he does a really bad job of selecting/researching/documenting his evidence.)


I am quite sure I've done more reading on this from real sources than FE has. He's mainly linked to his standard "news" sites with questionable legitimacy and clear political viewpoints.  Holder could very well have known that agents were letting weapons walk before he admitted to knowing about it, but at the same time there's just as much chance that Republicans are simply taking an opportunity to twist his words.  The truth there is much less clear.

More than a few political commentators have pointed out that the Solyndra correspondence likely exists for any company with a government contract.

Also, I'd love to see a list of companies that don't give to political campaigns.  I'm betting it'd be a short one.  Solyndra was given a loan because they provided the appearance of success.  Certainly someone should have done more homework, but systematic failure isn't the same thing as corruption.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 10 October 2011 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

And another thing pal.  Unless Wolf Blitzer reports on it, it's not real ok. 


I think that statement is a little bit too far.


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 10 October 2011 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

And another thing pal.  Unless Wolf Blitzer reports on it, it's not real ok. 


I think that statement is a little bit too far.

but but but Shepard Smith said that .......................................


Both Shepard Smith and Wolf Blitzer are so seckshule.  I want to sock both of them up with a biscuit.



Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 10 October 2011 at 3:48pm
 
 
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 11 October 2011 at 12:40am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

^ ^ ^  Try a little reading.  FE's links related to both situations list e-mail trails that, in the case of F&F, point to intentional obfuscation on the behalf of senior administration personnel (namely Holder) and on the Solyndra thing they point to a nasty relationship between the company (which helped fund the current President's last campaign), the administration and administration appointees who should have not been involved in the process of approving the company's (now defaulted) loan.

The situations get even more interesting/annoying/suspicious if you research beyond what FE has been posting.  (It's funny, even on topics where the facts support FE, he does a really bad job of selecting/researching/documenting his evidence.)


I am quite sure I've done more reading on this from real sources than FE has. He's mainly linked to his standard "news" sites with questionable legitimacy and clear political viewpoints.  Holder could very well have known that agents were letting weapons walk before he admitted to knowing about it, but at the same time there's just as much chance that Republicans are simply taking an opportunity to twist his words.  The truth there is much less clear.

More than a few political commentators have pointed out that the Solyndra correspondence likely exists for any company with a government contract.

Also, I'd love to see a list of companies that don't give to political campaigns.  I'm betting it'd be a short one.  Solyndra was given a loan because they provided the appearance of success.  Certainly someone should have done more homework, but systematic failure isn't the same thing as corruption.


The following quotes are from http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/solyndra-solar-company-fails-after-getting-controversial-federal-loan-guarantees/2011/08/31/gIQAB8IRsJ_story_1.html - this article .  Other articles are out there that cover these topics but finding all of them in one place was handy.

"“For an administration that parades around the banner of transparency, they fought us tooth and nail all summer long in turning over relevant documents related to the credit approval . . . "

"A month after Obama’s visit, the company withdrew plans for a public stock offering. A few weeks later, Government Accountability Office auditors announced that the Energy Department had given favorable treatment to some loan-guarantee applicants. A GAO report said the department bypassed required steps for funding awards to five applicants, including Solyndra."

Interfering with investigations seems fishy to me.  Granting loans without following the rules that are in place is not the same as granting loans when a company is providing "the appearance of success."

I'll stick by my statement that the administration is dirty in their own special way.


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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 11 October 2011 at 9:20am
Issa drops a "Joe Wilson" on Holder...
 
http://biggovernment.com/jdeangelis/2011/10/10/fast-and-furious-what-if-eric-holder-is-telling-the-truth/#more-347340 - http://biggovernment.com/jdeangelis/2011/10/10/fast-and-furious-what-if-eric-holder-is-telling-the-truth/#more-347340
 
Hey, maybe Holder and Obama are just THAT incompetent?
 
I'm sure they will manage healthcare for 300 million people much better than they handled 2,000 pesky guns...


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 11 October 2011 at 9:45am
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:



I'll stick by my statement that the administration is dirty in their own special way.


Absolutely, but I don't see why the complaints aren't about real issues, like Obama ignoring his lawyer's opinions just like Bush did.

The government is a big dog and the Republicans let the leash out for eight years.  I'm much less worried about the potential "corruption" than I am about the basic rules the government has to follow.  That could be because I see virtually no evidence of real corruption here, but in the long term it will matter much more than this.


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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 11 October 2011 at 10:37am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

I see virtually no evidence of real corruption here, but in the long term it will matter much more than this.
 
 
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

I am quite sure I've done more reading on this from real sources than FE has.
 
 
yeah... OK...
 
I'm TRYING to understand your position, but it is VERY hard to follow based on the statements above.
 
Clearly the US government was selling illegal weapons (anti aircraft guns, sniper rifles and grenade launchers) all ILLEGAL to sell to private individuals by law.
 
And yet, this happened, clearly the stores didn't just "do this" on their own... Stimulus money was used for this program to fund it, and it was promoted by Øbama and Holder often... Then when the facts about the program came out, "they didn't know about it"...
 
200 people are DEAD because of this. Including a US boarder agent (a COP).
 
AND you see "no evidence of real corruption"...
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 11 October 2011 at 12:30pm
Nothing wrong with "sunpower" either, huh...
 
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46761 - http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46761
 
Just some normal run of the mill chrony capitalism... Big Democrat style.


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 11 October 2011 at 3:39pm
FE, I'd like to see your sources for Anti-aircraft, grenade launchers, and sniper rifles (the last aren't illegal for civilians to own and civilians can own MGs and destructive devices in some states with proper permits) being supplied to cartels by the US Gov't.

From my understanding, sales were approved at gun stores that shouldn't have been,since there were suspicions of "straw buyers" the weapons weren't tracked if the were very traceable in the first place, and predictably, people were killed with said weapons. The program seems horribly flawed in concept and comparisons to Iran-Contra or other scandals and questionable Gov't actions seem like distractions to me, either this was wrong or it wasn't, two wrongs don't make a right. Source better if you want to be convincing at all.


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 11 October 2011 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Fast and furious guns found in cartel leaders home.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20111009,0,6431788.story?track=rss - http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20111009,0,6431788.story?track=rss
 
 
I did source it...
 
These weapons are AMERICAN versions of all of the above, they didn't come from Russia... They clearly left US hands and somehow ended up in Mexican drug cartels hands...
 
http://biggovernment.com/awrhawkins/2011/09/16/todays-special-rocket-launchers-from-a-fast-and-furious-dealer-near-you/ - http://biggovernment.com/awrhawkins/2011/09/16/todays-special-rocket-launchers-from-a-fast-and-furious-dealer-near-you/
 
The administration will do everything in their power to lay the blame somewhere else, but really, since when do AMERICAN anti-aircraft guns, .50 cal sniper rifles, and RPG's end up in Mexico but the US government just LOST them?...
 
The bs detector is going crazy... Holder will be under oath soon to answer for all of this... And blaming "bush" isn't going to fly this time.
 
 
And for Holder to act like he knew nothing... until recently...
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pdf_65_67.pdf - http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pdf_65_67.pdf
 
Look at the dates on that, course it is all redacted, but look at the headers... Clearly he knew.
 
more proof?
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pdf_64.pdf - http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pdf_64.pdf
 
This story covers the sniper rifles included...
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/03/eveningnews/main20039031.shtml - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/03/eveningnews/main20039031.shtml
 
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/23/eveningnews/main20035609.shtml - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/23/eveningnews/main20035609.shtml
 
 
clearly they did "nothing wrong"... Oh wait.
 
You want to question Holder? Well, he will walk off if you ask about Fast and Furious...
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 11 October 2011 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Nothing wrong with "sunpower" either, huh...
 
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46761 - http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46761
 
Just some normal run of the mill chrony capitalism... Big Democrat style.
 
 
No coincidence that this news comes out about sunpower, and suddenly a HUGE story about stopping a terrorist threat IN JULY becomes a national story...
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/11/us-usa-security-iran-idUSTRE79A5E020111011 - http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/11/us-usa-security-iran-idUSTRE79A5E020111011
 
wag the dog ØbamAA++, no one will notice...


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 11 October 2011 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by FE's article FE's article wrote:

Behind the mirrors they found a hidden room with the Fast and Furious weapons and dozens more, including an antiaircraft machine gun, a sniper rifle and a grenade launcher.
 
 
I did source it...
 
These weapons are AMERICAN versions of all of the above, they didn't come from Russia... They clearly left US hands and somehow ended up in Mexican drug cartels hands...
 
http://biggovernment.com/awrhawkins/2011/09/16/todays-special-rocket-launchers-from-a-fast-and-furious-dealer-near-you/ - http://biggovernment.com/awrhawkins/2011/09/16/todays-special-rocket-launchers-from-a-fast-and-furious-dealer-near-you/
 
The administration will do everything in their power to lay the blame somewhere else, but really, since when do AMERICAN anti-aircraft guns, .50 cal sniper rifles, and RPG's end up in Mexico but the US government just LOST them?...
 
The bs detector is going crazy... Holder will be under oath soon to answer for all of this... And blaming "bush" isn't going to fly this time.
 
 
[/QUOTE]That article implied that the other weapons were not from Fast and Furious operations. From other sources, and probably a few in this thread, weapons that have passes through the US account for maybe about 20% or crime guns in Mexico, just the traceable ones. These weapons are occasionally ones imported to the US but manufactured elsewhere (922R Compliant Romanian AKs imported by Century Arms) or US manaufactured weapons that entered Mexico through other channels than Fast and Furious. Like the zillions of weapons we've sold to other countries like South Korea, or even the Mexican Gov't, and have since found their way to cartel hands. You're making the argument that the US is the chief supplier of cartel weapons (a fallacy supporters of a renewed AWB love to promote) in an attempt to make the administration look worse. F&F is and was obviously a massive goat-rope. Gun groups are jumping on this since gun-control advocates were using cartel violence as a talking point to promote more restrictions while the administration was knowingly allowing gun sales that never should have been approved and making the problem worse. Congratulations FE, you're making last year's Liberal argument (US guns are the main tool of cartel violence) and want it to be true since your hatred of the administration drives what you choose to believe. Holder has more than enough rope to hang himself without you and others trying to over-sensationalize this, and your current tactic is serving to bolster a Liberal agenda that will outlast this administration.


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 11 October 2011 at 4:38pm
Actually, I understand that the REASON Holder and Øbama were doing this was FOR that liberal argument, JUST SO they could crack down on the sale of guns in the US... That is the ONLY reasonable excuse for their actions... Nothing else makes sense.
 
Unless you guys can come up with a reason the administration would let guns walk and not track them OTHER than so they could say "see, we should crack down on gun sales in the US because they are used in violence over the boarder"...
 
  http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=9614 - http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=9614
 
Obama promised to "work on gun control under the radar"...


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 12 October 2011 at 11:34am
http://news.yahoo.com/plot-kill-ambassador-unraveled-sw-border-074403378.html - http://news.yahoo.com/plot-kill-ambassador-unraveled-sw-border-074403378.html

Talk about good timing.....


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 12 October 2011 at 12:11pm
Could still be a false flag.  Then again, it might not be.  I certainly don't trust the Iranians, but I don't see how this could be particularly useful to them, nor why they would attempt it given the high degree of risk involved.

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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 12 October 2011 at 12:16pm
American Airtronic RPG 7's or Russian, Chinese, Cuban, etc manufactured RPG's?

-------------
Innocence proves nothing
FUAC!!!!!




Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 14 October 2011 at 7:20am
This looks VERY bad for Holder, and Obama.
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20108965-10391695.html - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20108965-10391695.html
 
 
If you want a review from an CNN on this story...
 
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/13/opinion/navarrette-fast-furious/index.html?eref=rss_politics&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_allpolitics+%28RSS%3A+Politics%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher - http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/13/opinion/navarrette-fast-furious/index.html?eref=rss_politics&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_allpolitics+%28RSS%3A+Politics%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

"Frankly, I am surprised by Holder's use of words such as "irresponsible" and "inflammatory." What could be more irresponsible than allowing weapons to be smuggled into a foreign country, weapons that then wind up killing the citizens of that country? And what could be more inflammatory than appearing to cover up such an operation and distancing oneself from it as staffers allegedly yell, scream and curse at reporters who are just doing their jobs?

And what was the purpose of these alleged theatrics? Was all this huffing and puffing intended to get Attkisson to back off the story? Brilliant.

As a former reporter, let me give the administration a tip: Attacking journalists is usually as effective in stamping out a story as gasoline is in putting out a fire."

200 crime scenes... (over 200 dead) and the white house screams at the reporter to stop reporting on this story...
 
So much for the department of "justice".


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 14 October 2011 at 9:39am
Random act of journalism...
 
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/13/obama_spoke_about_fast__furious_before_holder_claimed_he_knew.html - http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/13/obama_spoke_about_fast__furious_before_holder_claimed_he_knew.html
 
Whoops, ØbamAA++ proves Holder lied to Issa...
 
And BOTH of them knew in March.
 
Perjury proven by the President...
 
I would guess some will still see "nothing wrong" with any of this!


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 14 October 2011 at 10:56am

Personally without following links and reading too much into everyones posts, at a glance I can certainly appreciate everyone's investigative effort's and short novels on issues that we can't personally do anything about.  

FE can or have you broke down the right with your investigation like you do with the left?  Objectivity lends itself to legitimacy.



Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 14 October 2011 at 11:29am
You mean about my utter disdain for the war/s and the fact that we don't actually "win" wars, but pretend that politically we can have success without a goal or plan for success? (led by republicans)
 
Or the massive spending by republicans that led to their utter defeat in 2008?
 
The republican party (leadership) is often the exact same as the democratic party, we have had many discussion on that fact, and the fact that RINO's are one of my biggest pet peeves.
 
Yeah, that is pretty clear in my history.
 
I loath corruption... No matter what "party" it is affiliated with.
 
Trust, but verify. Bush deserved to be whooped, and McCain was not a good choice as he was/is a RINO. I have said that often.


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 14 October 2011 at 2:04pm
Uh Oh...
 
Someone smells a Pulitzer, and ignored the screams and cussing from the white house...
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/14/earlyshow/main20120395.shtml - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/14/earlyshow/main20120395.shtml
 
Hundreds of grenades "walked" too...


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 17 October 2011 at 12:57pm
What is ABUNDANTLY clear about all of this, is the proof that the media is VERY biased... Here we have the attorney general to the US who was subpoenaed to appear before congress, and none of the big papers have even put a reporter on the story...
 
No big story from the New York Times, Washington Post, USA Today, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Daily News and The Boston Globe.
 
Silence... from the "non partisan" media, (course plenty of good press for the Occupy movement...)
 
Problem is when Attorney General Alberto Gonzales’s fired 7 US attorneys, THAT was major news, and there is a clear pattern of ignoring one story while covering another based on one simple fact...
 
Clearly because of the "R" next to his name.
 
The media is a JOKE in our country, it is a propoganda outlet, nothing more. I'm sure Brian Terry's family understands that they can't have closure on his murder because it might make Holder and Obama look bad!
 
At least CBS is still paying attention.
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/16/ftn/main20121062.shtml - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/16/ftn/main20121062.shtml


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 17 October 2011 at 1:29pm
That Wall Street Journal and their damned liberalism!

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BU Engineering 2012


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 10 November 2011 at 1:36pm
Yeah, I bumped an older thread.  I thought it was better than starting a new one on the same topic.  There were actually three threads I had to choose from to bump; this one, one FE started that was Solyndra specific (at least initially) and one where I made some Mackstradamus predictions.  I will make references to all three.

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:


I'll stick by my statement that the administration is dirty in their own special way.


To avoid excessive linking the next few bullets of history will be unsupported but anyone who has followed either the discussions on here or the news should have no serious disagreements with them
  • The White House was accused of having an inappropriate relationship with the company/investors and interfering with the processes for securing government loans
  • Evidence provided by government agencies supported the interference (or smoothing the way by ignoring procedures if you want to call it that) but the White House denied any discussions related to Solyndra and fundraising took place  (Essentially denying it was some kind of quid pro quo deal)
  • Congress subpoenaed White House records
  • The White House, being occupied by a clear and transparent administration, denied to ignore the subpoena
That brings us to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/george-kaiser-solyndra_n_1084568.html?ref=energy - this article from The Huffington Post which seems to indicate the administration has been less than honest on this matter.  (Multiple links were available, but it was amusing to use this one.)

My favorite part is below:
Originally posted by huffpo huffpo wrote:

The emails released by a House committee appear to contradict repeated assurances by the Obama administration that the donor, George Kaiser, never talked about Solyndra Inc. with the White House.


A few thoughts:
  • I believe that this was leaked by the 'Pubs for political advantage--but that does not lesson the severity of the behavior by the Administration in their initial actions, their attempts to mislead the public or their disregard for rule of law
    • A Mackstradamus prediction:  Someone in the White House will come forward and admit to talking with Kaiser on this subject but will deny the President or other senior personnel were involved
      • Second prediction:  This individual will be lying
      • Observation:  Whether they are lying or not is not the only issue, the actions of subordinates do reflect on the character of the 'leader' and the leadership provided
  • Quite a while back Mackstradamus* predicted that the major media would eventually find themselves torn between their infatuation with this President and their blood-lust for juicy stories and the backlash for the administration would not be pleasant to watch
    • This is starting now . . . the blood is in the water, the sharks are circling and the feeding-frenzy is probably imminent
    • Third prediction:  When it starts it will not be just about Solyndra, in their desire to one-up each other the media will dig into every questionable activity (and probably a lot of routine ones as well) that the administration was involved in
      • As more comes out, and the mainstream media finds itself looking foolish for things it should have noted/reported earlier, the desire for vindication will take hold and we will see investigations/reports that make the 'Pubs look like they were treating the President with respect--there is a very thin line between vindication and vidictive
    • Prepare to break out the popcorn


*Did ya'll notice how much more impressive/authoritative one sounds when one talks about oneself in the third person?


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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 10 November 2011 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

 *Did ya'll notice how much more impressive/authoritative one sounds when one talks about oneself in the third person?
Undeniably - QFT


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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 8:16am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

The entire goal of project gunrunner was to catch the mexicans who were buying our weapons before they left the gun shows... Fast and furious was the plan to let them take them into mexico so they could "get to the high ups and take them down".
 
gunrunner had been going on since bush was in office.
 
Holder said this in April of 2009
 
Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels.  My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner, DEA is adding 16 new positions on the border, as well as mobile enforcement teams, and the FBI is creating a new intelligence group focusing on kidnapping and extortion.
 
 
Clearly he isn't talking about gunrunner, as that didn't need "mobile" enforcment teams as they just arrested the guys when they left the gun dealers with the weapons... And that wasn't "new". Fast and furious started at that time... Connect the dots.
 
Except they didn't take them down, instead they let them take the weapons to mexico and wreak havoc  so it would make a news splash that "American" weapons were fueling the drug war, so that Obama could crack down on gun laws (with cause).
 
http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/issa-grassley-blast-holder-in-letter-after-secret-meeting-with-atfs-ken-melson/ - http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/issa-grassley-blast-holder-in-letter-after-secret-meeting-with-atfs-ken-melson/
 
He knew, Holder knew, and they planned it. (they are brilliant if you didn't know that...). Now Holder is lying about his involvement... (they even used stimulus money to pay for the program).
 
Oh and lookie
 
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/11/rifle.sales.reporting/index.html - http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/11/rifle.sales.reporting/index.html
 
 
CBS finally connects the dots... MONTHS later...
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.1 - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.1
 
 
How does Holder still hold a job in the justice department?
 
Oh, yeah, because our media stopped doing their jobs years ago, and they don't report on things that "hurt their ideology".
 
 
Brian Terry's family deserves justice, The weapon that was used has disappeared... They have weapon #2, and weapon #3, but for some strange reason weapon #1 is missing. Even though they all know that it went into evidence... This "justice department" is so corrupt, at what point does treason become a legitimate response to Holders actions?
 
http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/16/issa-theorizes-about-missing-third-weapon-from-scene-of-border-patrol-agents-murder/ - http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/16/issa-theorizes-about-missing-third-weapon-from-scene-of-border-patrol-agents-murder/


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 12:10pm
^^^ Having read the above and other breaking news related to this I have two comments:
  • FE is looking more right on this matter every day
  • Mackstradamus predictions are looking pretty accurate as well


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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 1:41pm
Holders testimony proves something else I have said for years...
 
"liberals" have relative morality. There is no "right or wrong" just their personal morality, and that can change daily depending on their personal need, and their ability to never accept blame or consequences for their actions until caught red handed (blago comes to mind as well). Which is understood and accepted by people on the left, as it is OK as long as it doesn't hurt anyone (tell that to Brian Terry, oh wait) according to Holder no one lied because it has to do with their state of mind... (lack of morals in other words, what is wrong to me is NOT wrong to them).
 
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/lying-holder-says-has-do-your-state-mind_611731.html - http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/lying-holder-says-has-do-your-state-mind_611731.html
 
http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/holder-nobody-doj-has-lied/244706 - http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/holder-nobody-doj-has-lied/244706
 
 
So clearly he knew, and then lied about it, but now he is just saying it was "inaccurate information" while they try to unring the bell they rung.

Relative liberal morality on display, certainly not what our founders had in mind when they established our government. As they said that only people with a foundation of belief in God would have the moral fortitute to be able to keep from sliding into this decline of relative morality, that has encompassed our country, and our leaders.
 
 


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They tremble at my name...


Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 2:09pm
Says the guy who backed Herman Cain...

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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.


Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:


  • Mackstradamus predictions are looking pretty accurate as well

Silly rantings about relative morality aside, this is an interesting case. 

I think you're going to see a very different, much more neutered ATFE at the end of this whole case than the one that executed (Or didn't) this half-baked operation. 


Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 2:30pm
IMO ATFE has enough of a checkered history to warrant being seriously neutered. Ruby Ridge, Waco, this extremely stupid program, and the fact that they essentially get to make up rules that have the force of law with regards to import restrictions and categorizing firearms and components as they see fit. Every time they come under scrutiny evidence has a tendency to disappear, Waco being a huge example and this being a continuation of the trend. There's entirely too much power entrusted to one government entity with a rotten culture and not nearly enough oversight. Holder is the obvious target here for political reasons, and for legitimate ones of leadership, but I wouldn't feel less safe if the agency were broken up and personnel and responsibilities shifted to other agencies with better track records. ATFE was clearly overstepping its jurisdiction and seem to continue to be a rogue agency.


Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Says the guy who backed Herman Cain...

LOL

Also, you want relative morality? Check out that new Perry ad.

LOL

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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 6:47pm
Can we just get rid of the BATFE? it's not like they really do something that the other LEA's don't. 'shiners are normally the realm of the ABC agents in their various states. Tobacco regulations are more of a tax issue than anything, and let's face it, DHS deals more with explosives than anyone else. You can pawn firearms off on the FBI (they do the background checks) and the local LEAs.


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Says the guy who backed Herman Cain...


It impresses me that this is the first reference I have noticed to the Cain scandal.

Now I'll tell y'all why.

"Sherman set the wayback machine for June 2011."

Way back in the http://tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=188459&KW=weiner&PN=1 - Weiner thread I shared my opinion that the intangible concept of moral character was an important thing to consider in selecting public officials.  Several fellow forumers disagreed, being of the opinion that lying about posting pictures of a persons personal private parts* did not necessarily make one unsuited for public office. 

Now, when we jump back to the Caincubines story in the present, I really expected to see some of those same people bring up how his lack of morals makes him unsuited to seek office.  This did not happen.  I apologize for underestimating the integrity of the forum liberals I generally get into discussions with on things like this here as everyone seems to have been applying the same standards to both Weiner and Cain.  (Of course, mbro did make the comment, but I took that as really being more a shot at FE than at Cain.)  Either way, while I still do not agree with the opinion that one's personal morality should not be considered when one is running for political office, I respect the people on here who seem to have applied that belief fairly to both individuals mentioned above regardless of the political leaning of the politician or the forumers involved.

And by the way, I never thought Cain was fit for political office; this just solidifies my position in regards to him.


*Note the cool use of alliteration.


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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Holders testimony proves something else I have said for years...
 
"liberals" have relative morality.
 
I'd go on a rant about how generalizations are the trademark of poor arguments, but really, what's the point?
 
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


Relative liberal morality on display, certainly not what our founders had in mind when they established our government. 
 
 
Yeah, they were more about making sure women and minorities didn't have a say in government matters.
 
 


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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 09 December 2011 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

And by the way, I never thought Cain was fit for political office; this just solidifies my position in regards to him.
 
Cain was just another "anybody but Romney" candidate.


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