Handguns
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=189068
Printed Date: 12 March 2026 at 6:42pm
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Topic: Handguns
Posted By: The Guy
Subject: Handguns
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 3:31pm
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lulwut, Theguy is making a new topic. Must be that time of the year. So I have been postponing picking up a handgun, never really had the money to make the investment. One of the local range/stores rents handguns, and I was just looking for ideas on what to try out, to save me some money. Mostly, I am looking for something to practice at the range with (future LEO). 9mm. That same store, will also take the fees from up to 3 rentals, and put them towards the cost of the handgun. I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking at when it comes to handguns. I like the feel of the USP, but can't afford it. ------------- http://www.anomationanodizing.com - My Site 
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Replies:
Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 5:41pm
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Glock 19 FTW ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 6:26pm
Word. ------------- 
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deadeye007 wrote:Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 6:37pm
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I just don't like Glocks. Not my thing. I've got an FNP-9, which is an absolutely terrific firearm. Imagine a Sig-Saur P229 with a polymer frame. I love it. My favorite gun that I own right now is my Browning Hi-Power, however. An absolutely beautifully designed handgun. The ergonomics are perfect, it was the first double-stack magazine, and it's a good, solid shooter. The only disadvantages are it's single action, and the magazine disconnect gives the trigger unnecessary weight and roughness. It's not very practical for police purposes, however. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell" 
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 7:45pm
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Your cops use 9mm?
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 8:14pm
If they're wimpy cops that drive around harassing people because they live in places that don't see real crime, yes. Departments in the know issue .40 though. |
Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 8:15pm
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If you're thinking about becoming a LEO, consider whatever sidearm the department of your choosing is currently issued.
All in all... if your local range offers a variety of rentals, try them all! You want what you're comfortable with first... secondary would be familiarity with whatever department(s) are using around you. Other than that, there are so many good quality choices out there, that it's impossible to pick one based solely on opinions of others. DeTrevni mentioned the FNP-9. Excellent handgun. The new M&Ps are good. I have CZs that I'm very happy with. I never liked Glocks... but have more recently become a convert. My daily carry is now a G26, and I have a G19 as well. G19 is a popular police-issue (well, G23 these days, as most departments seem to be going 40S&W). Parts, holsters, magazines... all easily found and CHEAP. If you have a budget, that makes it a little easier for you. Limit your rental choices to what you can afford. Better yet, if the range will allow it... combine one "rental" and perhaps try several in one day? Will they let you fire 2-3 magazines out of a gun, then turn it in for a different one, and only charge one rental fee for the day? Look into it. 9x19 is a good caliber to own. Many will tell you to go with 40S&W, and there's nothing wrong with that. Look into ammo availability and cost in your area to help determine which road to take. Most handgun makes will offer same/similar models in multiple calibers. DeTrevni's FNP-9 is also offered as an FNP-40. The G19 is identical to the G23. G17 to 22, 26 to 27. So even if a department by you is carrying G23s, it'd be perfectly fine for you to get a G19 and maintain the same feel. You find yourself in a better position than most. Lot of people don't have rental opportunities near them. Try before Buy is a tremendous help. Being able to physically hold the pistol in your hand is of great importance before deciding... but being able to actually fire the pistol is that much better! You could be dead-set on a particular make/model, and upon firing realize it's not a good match for you. You could also have a negative opinion of a make/model from the beginning, and then realize that you actually enjoy that piece. I've experienced both of those myself. All in all... first and foremost is TRY. Holding is a good first step. But if you have the opportunity to fire them, do it! Then do pro/con list if you still have to make a decision from that point. Cost and availability of spare mags, cost and availability of ammo (if diff calibers), cost and availability of holsters (if you consider carrying at some point). Weigh configurations and aftermarket factory options... do I want decocker or manual safety, do I want night sights, etc. Again... lots of excellent choices out there. Really up to you to determine what's "best". Each of us has already made that determination for ourselves and that may or may not translate into what would work for you. |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 8:35pm
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I love my Glocks. Heckler and Koch makes an awesome handgun, FN is great as well as DeTrevni pointed out. Like Shorty was saying, try them all out. I dislike 9mm's myself, I've always carried .40's, and now a .45. But to each his own, either is as effective as the other with enough rounds  ------------- 
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Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 8:53pm
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Springfield Armory ------------- 
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Posted By: stick_boy_2002
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 10:01pm
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i love my glock 19 just fits my hand perfect, the weight is just right with a full clip. on the other hand i like the sheer stopping power of taurus pt1911, only thing i dond like about is the stainless is a little too flasy for me but the price was right. i would stay away from hi point hand guns, life time warranty and cheap price, but they definatly feel cheap. and the .45 hipoint is just way to bulky. i also had an S&W sigma 9mm, i liked everything about it except the 10 pound trigger pull. ------------- 
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Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 10:15pm
Ur doin it wrong -------------
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Posted By: The Guy
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 10:19pm
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Rentals fees are: $25 for an hour of range time $10 per gun I have to buy the ammo from them (only for rentals). I have one semester left before I can go test with MCOLS, (MI's certification branch). I was leaning toward a 9mm because of a cheapness of ammo. Most departments around here all carry Glocks anyway, even Detroit carries G19's. However, I don't like Glocks, because of their lack of a safety catch. I will look into the CZ, the FNP, and Sig's and see what I like. I'll report back. ------------- http://www.anomationanodizing.com - My Site
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Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 10:25pm
Curious to know what offerings they have for rentals. Write down the choices and let us know. 
As for Glocks... 
j/k Valid concern, and good that you have that criteria. Again... limits your choices, making things easier for you. |
Posted By: DaveEllis
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 11:06pm
| The lack of an external safety on a glock doesn't worry me in the least, less fine motor skills needed when the yogurt hits the fan, the better. |
Posted By: The Guy
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 12:30am
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I really do like the feel of Glocks. Its just that safety issue I have. As far as ammo costs around here go. $15 50-9mm $30 box of .40 ------------- http://www.anomationanodizing.com - My Site
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 1:13am
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I never understood why one would want four-tee s&w. And as a leo, the only gun I would want would be a internal trigger safety operated weapon. I will never own a handgun that has a external safety. We don't live in the 70's |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 1:17am
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M&P.
They are the new Glock. You can get a version with a thumb safety, IIRC you can install the safety on any model of M&P. They are getting more and more serious use. 
KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 3:06am
My buddy was a city cop. That department issued SigSauer226 9mm pistols. He had a guy advancing on him with a large butcher-type knife. He gave the guy every opportunity to discontinue his advance on him. A double tap of the trigger later the guy was crumpled on the ground with two bullet holes on each side of his sternum. Each of those hydrashocks hit the heart lungs liver and a kidney. Even if there were paramedics there at the time of the shooting there was nothing they could do. I would never ever discount a 9mm round. The +P Hydrashocks I guess are not to be trifled with.
Since he was medically retired, he picked up the same model gun since it was what he was comfortable with. He carries it at work where he manages a low-income government funded apartment complex where he used to bust drug dealers. ------------- 
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 4:59am
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Hydrashocks is good stuff. That's what I carry. |
Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 9:28am
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I got a 50ct box of Ranger SXTs for cheap when I purchased my pistol. It's what I use for home defense if I can't get to the shotgun. -------------
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Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 8:25pm
Well, there's the answer as far as which is more economical to shoot goes. Twice as many trigger pulls for the same ammo cost. Double the range time. 9x19 is a winner, in my book. It's cheaper to reload, too. Should you ever get into that. (I haven't bought factory pistol ammo in years) Same primer and powder cost, but projectiles are 50% less expensive.
Arguably, it's got better terminal performance. But, as stated above by StormyKnight... shot placement is first and foremost, and a modern +P JHP in 9mm is very effective. I've never felt the need to go .40 myself. And just as there are many good quality pistol choices out there, there is a good selection of excellent JHPs. One step at a time though... pick your pistol first.
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Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 12:31am
/QFT -------------
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Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 7:24am
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Since you are interested, I'll give you my full review of my FN. To compare other "service-sized" guns to it, I have fired a Sig-Saur P229, chambered in .357 Sig, a Hi-Power, S&W M&P, and 1911. I own the Hi-Power and FNP-9. I have also fired, and own, many small, concealable firearms, as well as black powder and various wheel guns, but they are so different in caliber and ergonomics, I feel that is irrelevant. Point is, I've got experience and a basis to compare the FN to. First, the basic rundown. The gun is a polymer framed double/single action with an external hammer. As for the polymer, don't let it discourage you. I have put many rounds through this gun, and I can attest the gun is reliable. So far, only two stovepipe jams. One was after a day of shooting, and was literally the LAST shot fired. The other was from my friend shooting it, and I'm sure he just limp-wristed it (not a derogatory term; if the gun is not firmly gripped, it may jam). The trigger is also polymer, but feels solid. I hear that the Sigma from Smith and Wesson has a spongy pull due to its polymer trigger. I have not compared it to the FN, but rest assured that this is not something the FN suffers from. The magazine well is beveled from the factory, and the magazines are polished steel. It is the SMOOTHEST reloading gun I have fired (stock), if that is a big deal to you. Magazine capacity is 16 (9mm), double stack, and my FN came with three mags. Out of the box, you come loaded for bear. Stock sights are very nice 3-dot "night" sights, meaning they are white dots on black blades. Very easy to acquire the target. Disassembly is extremely easy! Simply lock the slide back, rotate the disassembly latch (or take-down lever, etc.) forward of the slide release down, then release the slide. The slide comes right off and, from there the mainspring and barrel. The polymer frame is almost painfully easy to clean, and reassembly is just as simple; simply reverse the aforementioned steps. The slide sits on metal rails, so the frame won't just wear out. I'm sure that was a "no duh" thing, but I figured I'd throw that out there. This leads us to ergonomics. The gun is very simple, control wise. The only controls are an ambidextrous hammer decocker, slide release and disassembly latch. There is no external safety, but the double action is heavy enough (though very smooth) for this to not be a major safety issue. As mentioned by others, I much prefer a gun with minimal controls, though all the controls on the FN are well placed. No complaints there. The grip is wide, and fills my hands nicely, leading to a very natural aim. Unless you're used to Glocks, than instinct aiming will be a few degrees lower than intended. My hands are on the larger side of size, so your mileage may vary. The gun is designed to be a service pistol, so don't expect to conceal it. Like mentioned, it's got quite a wide frame. The backstrap of the frame is replaceable, and the replacement is included. If you don't like the contoured strap, you can throw the flat one on there! The length is shorter than many other guns, including my Hi-Power and 1911, but not enough to put it in the "compact" class. I can't remember the actual numbers. I'm writing this off the top of my head. On to actually shooting the gun. Once again, all praise. The gun fits my hands very well, meaning it shoots quite well for me. The recoil is very manageable, though the gun is quite tall, so it tends to "lift" in your hand instead of "push." Given that the trigger polymer, it's quite nice. The first shot, in double action, is long and fairly heavy, albeit smooth. Not a lot of take-up on the DA pull. The SA pull from then on out has a decent amount of take-up, but not off-putting amounts. There is a small amount of creep, giving the break a rounded feel. Not as glassy as I'd like, but not something I'd gripe about either. There is very little over travel, and the reset is very tight. It's a nice trigger, albeit slightly mushy. Bear in mind, it IS a polymer trigger in a mid-end gun, so it won't be racegun-perfect. For the groupings, it'll put the bullets where they need to go with no muss and fuss, but I actually shot the M&P with more accuracy. I have yet to do a side-by-side with my Hi-Power, as the HP is fairly new to me. So the rundown: Good: Reliable, comfortable, affordable, simple and well made firearm that shoots quite well. Bad: Wide*, polymer frame feels a bit "fake," the gun is tall, trigger break is a bit "creepy." Overall, I'd highly recommend looking atthe FNP series. I paid $580 or so for mine a few years back. Great priced, quality gun. * Wide may not be an issue. Like I said, I like it to hold and shoot, but it's not a carry gun, so it's fairly impractical for me. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 11:38am
My wife got one a few years ago, and I must say I am not a fan. The Sigma was Smith and Wesson's Glock attempt, but they varied on the trigger safety. The trigger has a hinge in it. I don't think the hinge is the culprit, but it feels like the trigger has to travel a mile before it will fire. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 3:22pm
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That's a pretty damn good writeup De Trevini. Makes me feel rather sheepish for putting my one line suggestion up. In fact I think it was only one word :o
More importantly than what pistol to get is what are you going to be using it for? I see your original post says "range use" and "practice" but what do you mean by that? Standing and plinking on the 7 yard line? Bullseye? IDPA? IPSC? Generally "service" level pistols will be bigger and harder to carry, if you ever decide to do that. I know quite a few police forces encourage off duty carry. But then I know people who carry and conceal a Beretta 92.... A small frame autoloader is exactly that, small. My daily carry is a Glock 26 and I must say it is less than ideal to spend the day on the range with it. I'm ok with it but my wife does not enjoy shooting it much, she prefers the 1911 because it has softer recoil. Small frame autoloaders will wear out faster than bigger guns. Simple physics. Same energy in the system, lighter weights and shorter distances. Medium frame pistols are the best of both worlds. They conceal easily and they offer the advantages of the larger pistols, namely the longer sight radius, generally milder recoil, easier to operate and the ability to carry lights and the like. You also need to consider the cost of the bits and pieces that go along with it. Magazines should be considered disposable. Look after them and try make them last as long as possible but don't get so attached to them that you get upset if you stand on them or they break hitting the ground hard. You also need mag pouches and holsters. The more common the weapon, the easier it is to get accessories. As well as spare parts. I'd still stand by my suggestion of the M&P. Mainly I liked the low bore/sight to grip angle. Many other pistols including the Sigs and the FNP are too high off the hand IMHO. 
KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 3:45pm
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Thanks for the props. :) I'll agree the FNP is a very tall gun. I'll add that in as a negative. Also, I don't like how I described the trigger pull. I'll edit... Edit: There. Just pulled the gun out to reaffirm what I wrote. I noticed the trigger wasn't as crisp as I wrote, so my review now reflects that. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 5:15pm
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out of the guns ive shot i think i liked the M&P, glock gen4 and 1911 the best. if i could do it over again i would have passed on the beretta and the xd... ------------- saving the world, one warship at a time. |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 6:54pm
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Nice solid stance kayback. The guy 2 stalls down looks tentative and laid back. Almost like he drank a bottle of codine cough syrup prior to heading to the range. Kayback the slide does sit nice and low in the hand in the picture. I look for that too in a a hand gun. Easy way to reduce recoil. |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 7:21pm
Haha I think it's a stretch to liken poor shooting stance to being on lean. That guy would probably be too lazy to actually use two hands if he was on anything like that. -------------
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Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 14 September 2011 at 9:00am
I used to shoot like that. 
Just a "natural stance" for some folks. After training, my stance looks like Kayback's. But it took a few sessions for me to completely transition out of the Weaver stance the guy in the background is using, and go Isosceles. Still working on it, too. Working on my rifle stance as well... trying to go Iso for <100yd shooting, which is what I'm limited to at my ranges. Difficult to completely drop the stance you've been using for years. |
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 14 September 2011 at 9:45am
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Honestly, I still love my Glock 22. I can beat the hell out of it and it remains an excellent little shooter. I prefer the full sized handguns because I have large paws, but I haven't tried to conceal it yet because you need a permit in Kentucky. I can buy a pack of .40 for only like 5 bucks more than 9mm, and I prefer the larger bullet. I would like to take a gun course and learn to shoot isosceles, but weaver seems so much more comfortable. -------------
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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 14 September 2011 at 9:59am
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Just slide the strong side foot forward skillet. A modified Weaver/isosceles is what many in law enforcement are switching to from what I understand and it's the stance I've used for years. Basically with your torso turned sideways a bit it presents a smaller target. I think there's an argument that openings in the vest are exposed by turning sideways. The guy in that pic looks like he's knocked back on his heels from 12 gauge recoil |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 14 September 2011 at 11:20am
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He was shooting a .45 USP, IIRC.
Careful what course you take. I recently took one given by John Farnham. Worst waste of money ever! He was advocating Weaver stance, thumb high grip and bunch of other 10+ year old techniques that shouldn't be seeing the light of day any more. Gunfighting has evolved. In the 1880's they used to stick on hand in their pocket and stand up straight. Things evolve. They didn't stop evolving 10 years ago, but many trainers seem to think it did. There are advantages to modified Weaver and Isosceles, there are advantages to Weaver. Basically get an airsoft pistol and practice shooting from the new stance and you'll get used to it. It's cheaper than doing it with live ammo, and you can do it more often. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: DaveEllis
Date Posted: 14 September 2011 at 2:08pm
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I second the motion for any of the modern polymer framed striker fired weapons. The MP, Glock, XD will all serve you well. I veto external safeties, read up on stress reactions and dexterity, fine motor skills go out the window as your heart rate and stress rise as well as sympathetic muscle reactions. I was also indoctrinated with the "natural action stance" Basically square up to your target, knees bent and weight on the balls of your feet, pretty much your standard ready stance, this is what your body wants to do under stress anyways so they have begun teaching it. |
Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 12:50am
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Weaver was an F'n cripple. Can't remember who yelled that at me when I went into a weaver stance. I still find myself using it (or atleast a halfarse version of it) when I'm getting tired. The isosceles version has worked best for me. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 4:46am
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Yeah my strong side foot is back about 3 inches from the weak side. Almost even |
Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 7:56am
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I'm going to second the M&P. I have a full sized one in .40sw and I loves it. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 4:35pm
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And for you 1911 fans (like myself) http://kitup.military.com/2011/09/is-the-marscoc-45-the-right-gun.html - http://kitup.military.com/2011/09/is-the-marscoc-45-the-right-gun.html ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: StormyKnight
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 12:07am
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I've used a modified Weaver stance since I started shooting pistol. Just feels comfortable and natural to me. -------------
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