Mixed Feelings on Intruder Drills
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Topic: Mixed Feelings on Intruder Drills
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Subject: Mixed Feelings on Intruder Drills
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 1:24pm
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Found out they are having an "Intruder Drill" today at my kids' school. Essentially consists of pretending there is an intruder in the building and the emergency steps they go through. Having mixed feelixngs about it as I agree that in the case of such an incident training, especially for staff, could be crucial to survival, but not crazy about putting the fear into my kids (6yrold twins and 13yr old) that such a situation might happen when it is so highly unlikely. Wife is the secretary at the school, and the training nowadays is pretty different from what used to be taught. Creating havoc and fighting back is the tactic being taught nowadays.
Makes me sad that we find this necessary to do. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Replies:
Posted By: mbro
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 1:30pm
The post columbine drill when I was in school was:
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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 1:51pm
Indeed. It's depressing, but necessary. I cannot even imagine the emotion of being a parent and understanding that this is the training going on - and that it's a real possibility that the training is happening for a reason.  |
oldpbnoob wrote:Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 2:04pm
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There was a plan for an intruder in place at my old school a long time ago. There was a 'code name' that would be broadcast over the intercom in the event of an intruder. "Mr. Smith, please come to the main office" or something like that. The fun part was, that the building was so old, that the doors didn't lock from the inside. The fear was that the kids would lock teachers out of the room, so the locks were from the outside only. So the custodial staff had to walk up and down the hallways and physically LOCK the doors, locking everyone in. My father was one of the custodians at that time, and asked the superintendent what they should do in the event of running into the intruder in the hallway. The response: Carry a broomstick. They've since updated the locks and the plan.....I think.
------------- ? |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 2:07pm
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But totally necessary.
And it isn't always the "badguys" you have to worry about. Having had limited first responder training I have to admit that it isn't nice doing these things, but it is good if everyone knows what do to. And practicing things full scale, on the clock is different from part practice. Honestly? They should include it in fire drill and bomb drill. (Do you guys have those, or was that part of growing up in Africa in the 80's?) If they did it properly in, say the first month of term you could get them all done at once. Practice fire the first week, earthquake the next, active shooter the next and then bomb drills or something. Everyone would get used to it, practices would go smoother and shortcommings would be highlighted. While we didn't have active shooter/intruder drills, we did have afore mentioned bomb drills and riot drills and honestly? I turned out ok. <twitch twitch> As the saying goes, getting into a car crash is unlikely, yet we all wear belts and have insurance..... I've experienced similar from both sides of the situation, active role player and monitor. It is sometimes scary how many holes are left open during an event. ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 2:32pm
Quite a few effective methods around that. Sinch straps for the door closing arms, or wedges to jam the doors. I can't find the link for my favourite door spikes, and I can't seem to find any of the ones I personally paid for. But they were fern leaf chaped metal tabs that you inserted in the gap betweed the closed door and the frame and turned them. They needed some form of leverage or gloves, but they worked a dream, and you could carry like 20 of them. But this is an example of a good door wedge.  ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 2:47pm
We had fire drills and tornado drills. As for shooter drills, from the things I've read, the best plan for having an "invader" on campus is to get everyone into a room, turn off the lights, lock the door, and get away from the doors and windows. If you look at previous school shootings, the gunmen tended to either 1) Shoot people they saw randomly in the hall, or 2) Go into a crowded and unlocked area and start shooting. If you get everyone inside and lock the doors, the best they can do is shoot into doors/windows. |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 2:49pm
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(Showing my age) Nuclear explosion drills. We had more than a few of those when I was in grade school.
------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: TheSpookyKids87
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 2:49pm
same minus the list on the window |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 3:13pm
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Our local school is a K-12 building and only 5 yrs old or so. It is well equipped with electronic locks, cameras and speakers. In the event of an intruder the office staff sequestors into a "control room" and basically announces on the intercom system exactly where the intruder is at all times. Depending on where they are, certain doors are locked down and kids are funneled out of the building across the parking lot into a safe location at the old school site. The way the school is designed, there are several wings of the building with double entry doors that are to remain closed during school hours. All of these doors can be locked remotely. Ot's good in theory, but honestly I know that most of the doors are not closed during school hours. I was actually scheduled to volunteer at the time the drill was taking place, so I ended up being in my daughters class after the drill was completed. They seemed ok with it. I was expecting my one daughter to be a blubbering mess as she has freaked out during fire and tornado drills in the past. She was talking very matter of factly about it. Never ceases to amaze me.
The one thing I did notice in the after discussion with the teacher that I wasnt 100% with was that she failed to explain to the kids that an "intruder" might not be a stranger and to be prepared for it. I was going to discuss this with her in private, but didnt get a chance to. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Zata
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 3:15pm
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One of my instructors talked about this in a CJ class. He made a good point that we spend time doing fire/tornado drills, yet how many students have died from those causes lately? On other other hand, how many students die from violence from other students alone? Just look at Detroit... On top of that, videos have been found of terrorists practicing taking over a school. I think something like that happened in Russia before. The bottom line is that these kind of drills DO need to be done. Clearly its a new world with new threats and we need to adjust accordingly. |
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 4:13pm
In my high school we did the standard lock the doors, shut off the lights, close the shades on the door windows (maybe limited to my school?), and huddle against the wall. I'm one of the larger kids, so I always got to be near the door in case I had to take out an intruder. Not that the teachers told you to do that, but that was our convention as kids  ------------- 
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 4:19pm
Same, except we close the blinds to the windows in the classroom too in case of an outside threat. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 5:14pm
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Schools are Gun Free Zones. There should be no worry of a gunman. |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 5:25pm
The number of shootings in schools is rather low, yes.
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Posted By: kickinwing2010
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 5:25pm
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A lockdown drill at my school, not only meant locking the doors, etc. but it also meant we would be having drug dogs coming through the school to search lockers and cars. ------------- 
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 5:32pm
| Interestingly enough, the police sometimes participate in the lockdown at my school. They usually go around knocking on doors and stuff while its going on, and if the instructor opens the door they "fail." |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 5:33pm
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 6:34pm
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Drills in my schools consisted of, "um if there's a fire or something then you should probably get out... Don't run though!"
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Posted By: CHiKUN_PiMP
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 6:45pm
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Hey, it's better to live in fear than have your fears realized. I guess.
------------- Ignorance is bliss, why aint you smilin? |
Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 7:13pm
I read your description of their plan above, but I did not see where they are doing this. ------------- 
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 7:39pm
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 7:39pm
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Our high school had training for the police with volunteers as students (actual students were not allowed to participate). It was really cool to be there. They came in with all the tactical gear and they had to find the one guy in the building. They used really cool airsoft guns. ------------- 
hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives." |
Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 7:46pm
We're the Hell's Angels, and we approve this plan. -------------
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Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 12:36am
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As sad as it is the training is necessary. Parents would be shocked if the schools didn't practice fire drills, but I'm sure since 98 the number of students seriously injured by fire and injured by gun shots are equal or slanted to gunfire (I didn't fact check that). With the remotely locking, doors and the play by play announcer, it sounds like your school has a pretty good plan in place. When my son reaches school age I'm going to teach him to throw a desk through the window if possible and run like hell. Columbine changed everything as response to active shooters goes, but even with a well trained and capable police department there will still be a window of time when it is just the gunman and students/teachers in the building so anything to better the odds for the first few minutes is a plus. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: Zata
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 9:24am
I got to volunteer for something like that in my town. I was labeled as a wounded/unconsious victim and they dragged around the school to a "safe" zone. Definitely fun to be a part of, and I got extra credit in my CJ class. |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 11:37am
| The tactical training the state and local PD does at the local high school is a bit of a confidence booster, they use simmunitions and not airsoft though. Cleanup and replacing doorknobs is worth the pricetag IMO |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 5:50pm
 Columbine must have not been a Gun Free Zone. If they were, these two students wouldn't have been able to carry firearms onto campus.  I know Virginia Tech has pretty lax gun laws, but I'm pretty sure Virginia Tech had a Gun Free Zone at that time also. What really shocks me, is that VT was years after Columbine AND 9/11. The police were better equipped, and better trained than ever before. Yet, 30 people lost their life, almost 3X more than Columbine.  Just recently we had a shooting, in a country with some of the strictest gun control laws. When some of the kids were interviewed they responded " We played dead, like we have been taught before" But thank god the police were on scene at Norway almost immediately. Oh that was the killer? Well crap, who are we going to rely on for our personal safety now? |
Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 5:58pm
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I remember the good old days. Way back when topics stayed on topic. -------------
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 6:15pm
Make sure you clarify that he should only do that during the real thing and not drills, otherwise you'll have to pay for a few broken windows. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 7:57pm
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Hmm to stay on topic. If you don't like the way things are going. Vote (ha that will do a lot). Home school. Or send them to private school. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 8:04pm
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Or give them a gun, duh.
------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 8:40pm
Absolutely not. It's best to play dead. It's best not to be tired when you get shot execution style. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 4:58am
I'm begining to see why bosses have a stance like "Don't come to me with problems, come with solutions". You are doing a lot of pointing out problems which we all know about. Lets hear some of your creative solutions. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 12:19pm
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Tippmann Forum Troll Olympics update: Despite an early lead, FE loses #1 spot to Impulse418 whose pace is setting records the like of which have not been seen since DeathSnakeHiss. He's on track to bypass even that record, prompting concerns over the usage of performance enhancing (or any other kind) of drugs. If you didn't have him on your fantasy team this year, you haven't got a chance. Stay tuned for updates as they come through. ______________________________ As for the topic at hand, The idea that these drills are necessary these days sucks, but the fact that schools are at least taking steps to create even the illusion of preparation is somewhat comforting. Like it or not, its the world we live in, and if a few drills here and there are what need to happen, I can deal with it. Although, I put it all in the same classification with fire drills for schools. Order and regularity in an actual emergency will break down, no matter how often you practice it- especially in a school. High strung teens, young teachers, scared little kids- its a recipe for confusion. But again, what else can they do? ------------- ? |
Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 3:30pm
Wouldn't that make for an interesting parent-teacher conference. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 4:03pm
Make it illegal to have a gun within 1,000 yards of a schools. If you did this, and marked it on a map, it would nearly make an entire city a GFZ (Gun free zone). " Impulse, they already did that in the 90's. But very rarely does state and local peace officers enforce it. Because they themselves know how bassackwards that sounds" Hmm sounded like a good idea, but doesn't do much good if the cops don't even enforce it. All public schools should offer life insurance to all students and teachers. At least the families will have money to help with the funeral costs. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 5:33pm
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Lol, that isn't a creative solution, that it taking the mickey of already standing "solutions".
Stop poking fun at a system that everyone knows doesn't work and give us your suggestions. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 6:41pm
I wouldn't quite say that. Banning firearms in high-schools has less to do with preventing a fluke massacre than it does allowing for the regulation of procedural safety and expulsion of those who violate it. Mass-shootings will happen. It's a sad fact of our human existence. But it doesn't mean we stop having rules.
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 7:23pm
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It's already illegal to steal. But people still do it. It's illegal to rape someone. But it happens. It's illegal to carry controlled substances... I'm high right now. It's frowned upon to punch someone in the face. I'm sure it's happened to you impulse. To quote a great man quoting a good man. "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither." * Basicly impulse, you are being a dobber and using the VT and Norway shootings to try and further your "argument" is distasteful at best. *possibly a quote misquote.
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 7:46pm
This made me lol way more than it should have.
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 7:55pm
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Posted By: CHiKUN_PiMP
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 8:32pm
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I'd like to add to those(EDIT: not that anyone has actually said this that I recall, but I've generally got a poor memory) who think banning firearms will stop them from being made- look up the "Paliuntod" Phillipino resistance shotgun. It's basically two pieces of steel pipe with an end cap with a striker in it. I'm not saying it's safe at all- but if you were desperate enough to even think of using one, you're probably in a pretty unsafe situation anyway. My poorly demonstrated point- we'd have to get rid of a lot of plumbing to get rid of private firearms(and LEO firearms, as people are still going to steal). The fact is- malarkey's going to happen. Life has never been guaranteed to be safe or fair. ------------- Ignorance is bliss, why aint you smilin? |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 8:35pm
Who has argued such a thing?
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 8:38pm
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The original topic, was not being comfortable that they are using their kids, as actors in drills. It's public school. Parents really don't have power, besides pulling their kids out. And either homeschooling or putting them in private schools where they should be. The Department of Education has done nothing more than pump out a generation of retards. Whose only real world skills and knowledge. Is to take a standerized test, that they studied all year with a "standard" curriculum. These kids go on to college, mostly on grants and scholarships. And major is something that has no real life application. OR get out with a real degree, but do now have ANY job experience. And wonder why they can't get a job, while holding a $100,000 piece of paper. I veered of topic, I apologize. Disband DOE, make all schools private (with federal funding of course, because there a less unfortunate people out there). Allow the schools to decide which rules, and curriculum they want to use. If you don't like the school MOVE. Or homeschool, or pay for a private school out of pocket. |
Posted By: CHiKUN_PiMP
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 8:46pm
I honestly don't remember, I just thought the point was related and valid so I posted it. I'm not going to argue that I pay poor amounts of attention to things and whatever the subject is supposed to be- but as this is an opinion forum I thought it'd be alright to post mine, however poorly stated and thought out it was. ------------- Ignorance is bliss, why aint you smilin? |
Posted By: CHiKUN_PiMP
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 8:53pm
EDIT: I don't exactly know what trolling is, but I'm going to stop posting here for a bit as I'd guess I'm probably behaving in such a manner, for which I apologize. ------------- Ignorance is bliss, why aint you smilin? |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 8:57pm
How do you define "real-life application?"
One, the DOE is the Department of Energy. Two, I see you don't understand the actual structure of control of public schools in the U.S. |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 9:00pm
Indeed. What it will do, though, is make sure that the transparency available in public education is gone, which is something I don't really see as a good thing. |
Posted By: CHiKUN_PiMP
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 11:57pm
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Whale, when you say transparency, what do you mean? I'm confused as usual ------------- Ignorance is bliss, why aint you smilin? |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 12:09am
It's all good. Ask! Asking is good! By transparency, I mean that public schools, as a part of the government, are subject to the same public records laws as the rest of the government. The things they do — with some exceptions — are open to public inspection through things like the Freedom of Information Act and various "sunshine laws." Not only that, but those in charge of schools, schoolboards and superintendents, are either directly electable through the democratic process or are the result of the process of appointments from someone who is electable. Essentially, there is the ability for public oversight and scrutiny. That is something you don't always get with private schools because they are not government agencies. That's not to say you never get transparency from a private school, but there is often no legal obligation.
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 2:26am
Drills which are needed. It might not be likely but it does happen, all roleplayers need to know how to perform their role. The only way you can do that is by practice. Do you want the first time a cop tries to enter a building to remove an active shooter is when kids are being shot? Not one of your "suggestions" will prevent school shootings, mitigate them when they happen, or remove the need for practice. Please try again. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 4:18am
I could care less. I don't have kids. If I do have kids, they will go to private school. |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 8:58am
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Fun fact is that private schools often times don't even require a teaching degree in order to teach a class. On the other hand, public school teachers in our area aren't even looked at unless they are working on or have completed their Master's. It still boggles the mind that people without even a college education feel they are more qualified to teach their kids at home than at a public school, at least at the upper levels. I have a college degree and when my daughter started bringing math home last year that I had totally forgotten how to do, I can't imagine how someone that may have barely graduated HS thinks they can do it. Back on topic, my concerns are as to whether the drills are truly necessary and weighing their effects on the kids against their effectiveness. Honestly, I don't feel they are effective since as Whale mentioned, all heck breaks loose anyways, especially with non-professionals and unpredictable little kids. I guess a part of me would prefer my kids not to know that there are potentially bad people out there wanting to harm them. School should be a safe haven where they should not have to worry about the intrusion of gun toting idiots wanting to go out in a blaze of glory. I simply find it sad. Further, I question the need. If you take up the number of schools in this country and the actual number of times this has happened and you realize the odds are really really small that any such thing will happen. I mean out of the hundreds of thousands of schools over a hundred or so years and what, maybe 10 times this has happened? Are we unduly creating fear in our kids in an already over threat heightened society?
I read a few articles that referenced the fact that crime is actually at one of its lowest levels. From what I remember, the articles stated that crime levels are at those prior to the seventies. Yet we are constantly barraged with the idea that crime is way up or increasing. Part of this is through direct misinformation as well as through the media turning it into a circus any time a kid decides to go out exploring without his parents for more than a couple of minutes. Part of this trend was also blamed on the increased overlapping media reporting between cities. I was a kid in the 70's and don't really ever remember hearing reports of kids missing from other cities. Back then, the nation would not have all been holding their collective breath over the Anthony case as it would have been a local story, not a global one. While I see the benefit of Amber Alerts or similiar, I question the nationalization of the the news. The fact is, that things really aren't as dangerous as they used to be and news outlets are having to go outside of their area for exciting stories. However, bringing all of these stories into our homes IMO is causing a lot of undo panic and worry about how unsafe the world we live in is, when in fact it's not.
When I was 7, and until I graduated, I was home by myself from the time school let out and my mother got home from work around 6. I walked nearly a mile to and from school everyday, most times by myself and my friends and I rode our bikes around a relatively large area completely unsupervised. Yet, I wouldn't let my daughters who are both turning 7 in November walk up to the local convienence store by themselves which is only 2 blocks away. I blame the over sensationalization of society for making myself and others that the world we live in is such a bad place that my kids aren't safe to walk down the street two block.
I think that more than a generation of retards, we are raising a generation, or two, of kids afraid of their own shadows. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 12:02pm
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^^ The number of flights compared to the number of commercial airliner crashes show they are rare, but they still show people how to use the oxygen mask and tell them where the nearest exit is. I don't remember when the last Cruise ship sank, but the first thing Carnival made me do when I got settled on the ship was learn how to find a life vest and a life raft. When was the last time your school caught on fire and actually needed the fire drills? Active shooters are a relatively new risk compared to the other risks I mentioned, but I would rather have a plan in place just in case something happens. Like Whale mentioned, things will fall apart when the fecal matter hits the oscillating device and some people will simply be overwhelmed and freeze, but if half or more people can revert back to their training it will help save multiple lives.
One of your complaints is that it takes away the innocence of your 7 year old daughter (That was a guess, forgive me if I'm wrong). It is a legitimate complaint. Seven years old is young, and I believe that in the elementary system the staff should be trained on how to react and tell the children what to do if something happens. By the time a child enters middle school and high school they need to run some sort of basic drill on how to evacuate or shelter in place. In closing I will say that its sad that we have to even talk about this, but school shootings do happen and schools make great soft targets for terrorist attacks as well. Schools need to have a plan in place because "It cant happen to me" is not a viable defense. I will agree with you that the children don't need to be involved in the drills until they are at least in high school of middle school (by that time they will have seen enough on TV to be desensitized). I would give an opinion on the news, but I'm running out of time. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 2:51pm
Not one part of that satement justifies anything you have said previously in this tread. Private schools will still hold emergency drills. They might not have "intruder" drill, but they will have some. Please try again. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 3:02pm
I attended a private high school and we had the same drills as all other schools — fire, tornado and "emergency response."
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 6:25pm
The whole thread was " I don't like these intruder drills" So, put your kid in a school that doesn't have them. And how in the world is the crime rate low in 2011? Do you people know how MANY more guns have been sold, and the number of people who are carrying since the 60's?! People have been telling me all my life, more guns= more crime! A armed society, is a polite society. |
Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 6:35pm
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Impulse, did you attend a public school? -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 6:41pm
I did. |
Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 6:48pm
Therefore you must be retarded, and any opinions you have on anything must also be retarded. /thread -------------
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 6:53pm
So your claim is that crime rate is directly inversely correlated to percentage of gun ownership within a population?
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 6:53pm
 But give me a standardized test, on a scan-tron form. And I'll have my #2 pencil ready. I will read the directions while you read them aloud. That, I can do damn well. I fortunately went to a pretty good public High School. I wish my would of heeded my parents suggestion to go into a private High School. But hindsight is 20/20. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 6:57pm
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I know a lot of kids who went to private high school. There is a much greater variation within public high schools than there is between the average public high school and the average private high school. It's a relatively large amount of money for modest gains at best, unless you're going to a school for the uber-rich.
------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 7:02pm
I attended a religious private high school (It's a long story) where the academic levels were essentially a joke. The science courses were mixed with religion. The academic rigor of the majority of the classes were either on par with, or lesser than, the public school equivalent. This is not indicative of all private schools. I know quite a few are reputable. However, it's not an automatic signifier of "private." In my case, "private," meant "parents pay a ton of money to a church so their kids will get easier As through rampant grade inflation."
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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 10:43pm
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I went to a private Christian school in South Florida because it was the closest and "cheapest" one around (at $7900/year). Only cause the public school in my district was a "D" rated school and 98% African American - not very good for a white boy from Canada. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 1:09am
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 3:23am
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Haha, that's pretty funny actually.
Still, where does it say private schools don't do intruder drills? Any school should at least have a response thought out. And these things take practice. I don't agree with OS who says it destroys innocence. While scaring your kids into thinking a gunman is going to arrive any and every day is not a bad thing, a general term like "intruder" can be used. Do you not teach your kids about "stranger danger" in the first place? I was at a private school during grade 4 and half of grade 5. We had riot and bomb drills (as I said, this was the 80's). Rather ironically as public schools were segregated, but private ones were not, so blowing one up would not have been as effective as blowing up a goverment school, hell on of the guys in my class was Steve Biko's son.) There was no innocence lost because the drills were handled as part of the emergency training like a fire drill. Maybe HOW they deal with the drill is more important than what the drill is. Like I said I've also been a responder with drills like these, and they are necessary. While you can go through the motions in an empty school or a shoot house, being on scene with 100's of extras does help refine plans. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 8:51am
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While I don't like the loss of innocence, my gripe is more the over sensationalism of every single violent crime, child abduction or school incident to the point that we are creating a society of kids afraid to go outdoors. I realize laziness is the main reason kids are sitting inside playng video games, but how much of it is due to parents allowing it because they think it's safer than making them go outdoors?
Running intruder drills seems to a little over the top for me. There is a difference IMO between having safety drills like fire and tornado vs drills where it is simulated that a deranged person is hunting them down to harm them. Psychologically, it is a huge difference. Fire and weather are not centiant beings making the decision to harm them. While they are dangerous, they are a different type of threat. Conditioning kids to expect the possibility that someone may come into their school to hurt them seems wrong to me for some reason. As I said, I think the schools should be a safe harbor of sorts. Kids have enough of that crap thrown at them constantly at home, do they need it at school as well? Having a plan it excellent, but with such a miniscule possibility of it happening does it really outweigh the damage of causing false insecurity in our youth? ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 9:25am
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Your logic is flawed. If that were the case then we should also remove seatbelts in cars because the thought of being ejected from the rolling vehicle might scare us. Or we shouldn't have safety demonstrations on planes because the chance of crashing is small. Hell, even get rid of fire drills because schools never catch on fire. Right? Why should children be exempt from this just because they are young? Its part of life, and the possibility IS THERE for something like a shooting to happen. Would you rather EVERYONE dead when it happens? Or just a few? Take the pick, because preparedness does save lives. |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 9:46am
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I have been involved in 6 car accidents in my life. I have never had anyone come into my school and shoot me or anyone else I know. While we are preparing them for the ultra slim chance that an intruder will come in and hurt them, maybe we should run drills where their teachers have a psychotic break and tries to choke them all. We would run simulations and show the kids how to defend themselves with pencils. That ought to make them sleep well at night. Point being that car accidents are actually fairly common, school intrusions are not. You are comparing apples to oranges. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 10:24am
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No, I provided 2 other perfect examples that have slim chances of happening. The point of my message was to show you the entire logic and not a specific one. The logic is the same: prevention and preparedness. Just because it has a slim chance of happening doesn't mean it can't happen. If it does, it would be devastating to the unprepared. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 10:42am
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I can get why you are saying that but I honestly don't see it as scaring people.
I DO agree with the sensationalism of things, and I lament the fact I probably won't send my kid to the shops on her own. Back in the 80's South Africa's population was 23.8 Million. It is now roughly 46 million. What this means is there are (probably) twice as many crazies as there used to be. There is definately much more road traffic, and I don't live in as a seculded neighbourhood as I grew up in. So simply being hit by a car is a bigger danger than it used to be..... The world simply isn't the same place it used to be. Something people have been saying for 30 000 years. (6000 if you are a Creationist) KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 10:52am
I'll give another example, not sure how relevant it is. My twin daughters were born barely over 4 wks premature. I think it was like one or two days over. Now, because of this premature status, and the fact that they were born during flu season, we were hit up by the hospital to enroll them in s special program where they would receive monthly injections of this medicine that would help reduce the severity of the symptons if they contracted a certain form of the flu. TBH, I can't remember the names and such. However, it did not prevent them from contracting this strain, simply it would keep it from getting too far out of control. They would come to the house to inject it etc..... to the tune of $800 per child, per shot, per month for 5 months. Not a cent of which my insurance would cover. So essentially $8000 that we didnt have just laying around. After I picked myself up off of the floor, I started doing research on this thing because the hospital made it seem like it was an urgent and dire potential problem that needed to be addressed asap because the girls were "premies" by 2 days. Upon doing the research I found that in premature babies it was a flu that was contracted by some rediculously small percentage, IIRC it was under .01% or something, and of that percentage, only another small percentage actually had any issues. So for basically a one in 100k chance the hospital wanted me to spend $8k that I simply did not have. We made the decision to forego the shots and my girls never had a single issue. However, I am sure a lot of people would have just signed the paper and gone through with the shots. For me the benefit did not match the potential risk. In this case it was monetary which was easy to calculate. It isn't so easy to calculate long term fears in our children that are not warranted. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 11:05am
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 11:32am
Most of which we have done away with, so why not work on mitigating the problems we do have? ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 12:19pm
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 12:35pm
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Risk mitigation is still legitimate even in an age of safety, for that matter it makes it possible. As someone who sat through many years of intruder drills, I really don't think this is a serious issue. Children will not end up being seriously scarred by it. Also, odd fact: my high school was the same design as Columbine High School. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 1:00pm
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 2:13pm
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It probably is subject to diminishing returns.
Honestly the likelyhood of being unfortunate enough to be a victim of many different bad things in life is very low. Chances of being in a school shooting? Low. Chances of being in a plane crash? Low. Chances of being in a vehicle accident that will require safety belts and airbags? Statistically very low. chances of needing Flood/Fire cover for your house? Again, statistically very low. Yet people still take precautions. It is sensible when the "what if" becomes a "damn, it is happening". The chances of a kid being abducted are very very low. Even in this country, but it does happen. I don't want it happening to my kid. If she's the only kid in the suburb who is allows to walk to the shops alone, it kinda raises the chances, doesn't it? ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 2:21pm
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^^^ But don't we diminish our quality of life by living in constant fear? ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 4:03pm
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I dunno. Put up your hands everyone who is in constant fear.
. . . . . . KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 4:07pm
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Ok, give your daughter a fiver and have her run down to the corner store for some milk. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 5:29pm
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Being prepared is not the same thing as living in constant fear. When I was in school, I knew what I was supposed to do in the event of an intruder, but the only time I actually thought about was during the drill or when I was spacing out in class fantasizing about taking the intruder down, becoming the hero and getting all the ladies. -------------
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Posted By: ParielIsBack
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 6:23pm
Dot. "Fear" implies an uncontrollable emotional reaction, which is entirely different from taking reasonable steps to ensure things go as planned. ------------- BU Engineering 2012 |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 6:26pm
I'm still guilty of this :\ ------------- 
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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 6:49pm
| Intruders. There just wasn't such a thing when I was in high school. Just the occasional ass whipping and then everyone got over it. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 3:38am
Like I said, I don't live in a quiet neighbourhood. There are too many cars around. I also wouldn't do that in my childhood neighbourhood. Again, the number of cars has dramatically increased. I can't remember the age I was allowed out alone, but I'm thinking it was closer to 10 than 7. Incidently if everyone is protecting their kids and yours is the only one on the street, it kinda increases the chances of something happening. Back to your point, I don't live in fear because I don't send my daughter to the shops with a fiver. Taking sensible precautions and all that. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 8:37am
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You guys are missing the point.
Does evil exist? Our society wants us to believe that everyone is good, and things are not "bad" just misunderstood...
We now live in a world with greater moral decline than ONE generation ago. People from two generations ago are SHOCKED at the decline. That is a FACT.
When I was a kid, we did the nuclear attack tests, (you know, climb under your desk while the bomb goes off... Although a nuclear bomb wouldn't care if you were under your desk or not, you would be dead either way).
All to the point that the world is a dangerous place, and during the "enlightenment" of the 60's that changed so much of or world we now see the consequences of our actions as a society.
We used to teach morality in schools that had a Biblical base, the ten commandments were on every classroom wall as well as our courts... Civilized society NEEDS that moral rule of law.
And yet, we as a society have discarded that, and what was the result? When did school shootings START. We have a definite answer to that... We also see how they have increased to the point that a few weeks back a kid in Wv went on a shooting rampage and it is now so commonplace that it didn't even hit the news in most areas... (course he was a self described http://www.theblaze.com/stories/did-w-va-shooter-slay-5-people-including-unborn-child-for-being-rejected-from-the-military/ - liberal, socialist, and played PAINTBALL ... )
The point is we as a society have tried to ignore that there is evil in the world. And evil by its nature will grow if left unchecked. By not teaching Biblical morality and values, we have instilled in our culture a "survival of the fittest" version of secular humanism, that has lowered the morality in our society to the point where it would literally be unsafe to let your kids go to the corner store with $5... As the odds of something bad happening to them is so high now it isn't worth the risk.
Girls in the US are sexually abused to a rate of 1 out of 3 by the time they hit 18! Boys aren't even immune as 1 out of 6 are sexually abused by the time they hit 18 as well!
And much of the abuse is FROM SOMEONE THEY KNOW... Look around you. The statistics prove that someone YOU know is abusing kids.
Good thing we don't teach Biblical morality anymore, huh...
But, we do show young children how to apply a condom...
A society without a moral compass is a society where you have to be on your guard because there is SO much evil present, and since evil breeds evil, it will only get worse as time goes on until the public has had enough and starts going back to the teachings that repel that type of behavior and teach Biblical morality at a young age which allow society to shun bad behavior as they have a foundation of understanding right from wrong.
As George Washington said "It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being."
By ignoring God for a generation we are living in the world created by our folly. A world that ignores God, and his creation at the expense of "higher learning"... Every aspect of life is focused on the science of secular humanism... But, left to mans own devices, we end up with what we have created, a world of self absorbed, secular humanists, who only care about their next score, both financially and physically. No reguard for their peers, or the affects of their behavior on others, they just want what THEY want... get in their way, and you will be destroyed.
We have seen what results, and it is a large group of feral humans... Who care not about human decency and morality but only what THEY can get out of life at the expense of others.
Psalms 14
The fool says in his heart "there is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the Lord? ------------- They tremble at my name... 
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Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 8:44am
Ok, then, where did they start? When was the first? -------------
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 8:53am
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http://www.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2008/02/15/timeline-of-school-shootings?PageNr=3 - http://www.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2008/02/15/timeline-of-school-shootings?PageNr=3
In the 1960's...
As to where I got the "feral" human line... That article describes the issue pretty clearly.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 8:58am
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Please do not clutter up my thread with your religious crap FE. Start your own if you want to discuss Biblical nonsense. It has nothing to do with this subject at hand. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 9:03am
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Actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with the issue at hand...
Even your response proves that. Are we really so uncivilized that you have to resort to calling my post "crap" and "nonsense"
Hmm, that is a "normal" response in an uncivilized society, further proving my point. ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 9:10am
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I won't debate it with you. Start your own religion thread if you want to talk about it. It doesn't belong here. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 9:23am
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/20/woman-child-shot-at-school-in-georgia/ - http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/20/woman-child-shot-at-school-in-georgia/ ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 9:27am
This. Enough already. You are not winning any friends here and just making yourself more enemies. FE, stop it. You really abuse the forum with your rants, just because you can does not make right that you do so. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 12:03pm
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Truth can not be debated, and my goal is not to make friends, but to promote the truth. As therein lies the answers to the troubles of the world. If God is real, then the Devil is real as well, and this world is his world. It is no wonder so many are blinded when the truth is shown to them. The devil wants your soul, so any chance he can get you to dismiss or outright ignore the truth is a win for him.
We all know that school shootings are recent. We also know what happened in that same time period, and in our culture since that time. We all see the decline, but instead of realizing the truth, we like to pretend it isn't there. Why is that?
I realize that being honest in my dealings is not the way of the world, it clearly is not "politically correct". But, what has political correctness gotten us?
The truth hurts, but the truth will also set us free.
I'll leave the discussion with this.
1 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you! 9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings. 10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. We have become the scum of the earth, the garbage of the world—right up to this moment. Paul’s Appeal and Warning14 I am writing this not to shame you but to warn you as my dear children. 15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.18 Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21 What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod of discipline, or shall I come in love and with a gentle spirit? That comes from 1 Corinthians 4, Paul speaking to the early church... Time has passed, but many things remain the same. ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 12:07pm
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[QUOTE=FreeEnterprise] Truth can not be debated, and my goal is not to make friends, but to promote the truth. As therein lies the answers to the troubles of the world.) Reported. trolling. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 12:27pm
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I missed these mental exercises.
"Evil" is a societal context that has to be defined within each society. To some societies, twins are "evil." Not too long ago in the human timeline, those with dominant left hands were "evil." So if we're going to talk about "evil," we'll need a working contextual definition.
I would disagree - this is a "yes and no" answer that quite a bit of work has been done on. Quite a bit of work in social psychology and sociology is focused on the concept of nature vs. nurture, structure vs. agency, or whatever you want to call it. And the end result of that research has pointed to the idea that there is no binary answer to inherent behavioral growth. So the research continues.
Define "moral." It's a societal agreement of norms, it's not an actual singular entity. And that agreement of norms changes based on progression of time - in this case, across generation lines. This, by the way, is something that has been going on since human beings were human beings. Socrates's famous quote and all that. When the next generation evolves and adapts their own codes of societal conduct, the previous generation tends to be upset that they don't continue their own developed norms. Example: The WW2 generation was disappointed that the boomers grew out their hair. The boomers were disappointed that GenX enjoyed alienation and disregarded authority. GenX is disappointed that the millennials always want to work in groups and manipulate their surroundings. Culture is fluid, adaptive, and evolutionary.
People two generations ago were also on the cusp of believing that it was morally sound to legally discriminate against someone of a different skin color. Culture is fluid, adaptive, and evolutionary.
I'm rather pleased, as a whole, at the way our society and culture has progressed compared to how it has been in the past.
And we still do, especially at the younger ages.
And yet this same time period still produced criminals, social deviants, and dropouts. Funny how that works. Or doesn't.
I cannot disagree with this statement.
Correlation, causation, etc. Unless you can produce some kind of empirical evidence to connect the two, you'll have to try again with that one.
Many Scandinavian countries are remarkably atheistic, and include no religious instruction within their schooling, yet have very low crime rates, high education rates, and some of the world's top-ranked conditions of living. Why have they not fallen into a pit of moral despair?
Those two terms have little to do with one another.
The odds are, most likely, far less than what you think they are. It's called the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_World_Syndrome - "Mean world effect." Because of an increased focus on crime, violence, etc., in consumable mass-media, including the news media, television, movies, etc., people tend to vastly overestimate their risk of danger. It seems this is true with you as well.
Show your work please.
That's not how statistics work.
So your opinion is that biblical people do not commit violence?
And how is this related?
On the contrary: society invents the moral compass.
A world that ignores God, and his creation at the expense of "higher learning"... [/quote] Religion and education are not mutually exclusive. It's just that one should be done within the home.
That's not how science works. And not what it is. This is barely a coherent sentence.
This is, according to quite a bit of cultural studies literature, remarkably false. The millennial generation shows a higher rate of communication, interaction, inter-personal development, and cooperation compared to other previous demographic cohorts.
That's not what that word means.
Well, that was fun. |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 12:34pm
"Truth" is hardly a real thing. It's a philosophical collection of compounding assumptions of correctness that is needed within the logical structure to progress understanding. It's a needed compromise.
Violence, however, is not. Violence is an age-old human biological phenomena. It's a new setting for an old problem.
Because most people here have a grasp on simple statistics. Correlation does not imply causation. |