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We Stopped Dreaming

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Topic: We Stopped Dreaming
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Subject: We Stopped Dreaming
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 4:25am


Ignore the "inspirational" music. What he says has some truth.









Replies:
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 4:51am
That man is awesome.


Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 8:10am
Don't worry, weapon development is alive and well.

We need to get our kids to support the current conflicts. And encourage them to do well in school. For they might design the next drone.


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 8:46am
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Don't worry, weapon development is alive and well.

We need to get our kids to support the current conflicts. And encourage them to do well in school. For they might design the next drone.


Weapon development is not alive and well. Maybe for small arms and robotics, but not for future aerospace technology. That technology is what solves todays problems on Earth.There has been a push for privately funded technology, but it is all for-profit and private technology simply cannot do what government funded technology does. The NASA got us to the moon in 8 years; they can do the impossible.


Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 9:00am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Don't worry, weapon development is alive and well.

We need to get our kids to support the current conflicts. And encourage them to do well in school. For they might design the next drone.


Weapon development is not alive and well. Maybe for small arms and robotics, but not for future aerospace technology. That technology is what solves todays problems on Earth.There has been a push for privately funded technology, but it is all for-profit and private technology simply cannot do what government funded technology does. The NASA got us to the moon in 8 years; they can do the impossible.


NASA is an inefficient monster.


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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 9:31am
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Don't worry, weapon development is alive and well.

We need to get our kids to support the current conflicts. And encourage them to do well in school. For they might design the next drone.


Weapon development is not alive and well. Maybe for small arms and robotics, but not for future aerospace technology. That technology is what solves todays problems on Earth.There has been a push for privately funded technology, but it is all for-profit and private technology simply cannot do what government funded technology does. The NASA got us to the moon in 8 years; they can do the impossible.


NASA is an inefficient monster.


How so? I'd say they've done a lot given the budget they have/had.


Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 10:34am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:


Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:


Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:


Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Don't worry, weapon development is alive and well.

We need to get our kids to support the current conflicts. And encourage them to do well in school. For they might design the next drone.


Weapon development is not alive and well. Maybe for small arms and robotics, but not for future aerospace technology. That technology is what solves todays problems on Earth.There has been a push for privately funded technology, but it is all for-profit and private technology simply cannot do what government funded technology does. The NASA got us to the moon in 8 years; they can do the impossible.


NASA is an inefficient monster.


How so? I'd say they've done a lot given the budget they have/had.



You'd be wrong then. It was an over-funded ex-Nazi playground for a long time. In fact, until the Mars Sojourner program in the early/mid 1990's NASA had pretty much squandered all their money on expensive and unsustainable programs like the Space Shuttle. There was no economic advantage to using a reusable orbiter, at all. We should have stuck with the Saturn V rocket system and upgraded it instead of spending all that money just to show the world we could make something that they weren't even really interested in.

In fact, the budget cuts that NASA has faced since the Bush Sr. / Clinton years have proved to do more to spur innovation than the previous 30-40 years combined.


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 10:47am
Eh, you guys can say what you want, but I still think that science should be funded more than it is right now.


Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 11:48am
I don't know about NASA, but he is right about how we went to space and the moon out of fear, and that space race was very much so a precursor for the computing revolution that began in the 80s. 

Honestly, I believe investing in a manned mission to Mars, or the asteroid belt, or some other place far beyond our reach now will do much more for our economy then anything else we could spend that money on.


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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 11:52am
^^^  That.  In many cases the advances made in failed attempts to meet difficult goals are still quite worthwhile.

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Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 11:59am
Long overdue for a new space pen.

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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

How so? I'd say they've done a lot given the budget they have/had.
Adjusted for inflation NASA has had a total budjet since 1958 of over 758 Billion dollars. Averages to around 14.3 billion per year. I think anyone could do a lot with this sort of financial resources per year. I would venture a guess that private companies could do considerably more with less than 1/2 this amount of funding per year.
 
 
Figures derived from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Budget" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Budget


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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 12:22pm

Great music for sure.

So here we go with the same song and dance of "It's the people's fault.  Feel guilty and give up more tax dollars ok".

It's not the peoples fault.  Quit misusing tax dollars and laundering money for your own personal gain ok?



Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

  I would venture a guess that private companies could do considerably more with less than 1/2 this amount of funding per year.


But they don't, which is largely why NASA still exists. 

Capitalism is awesome at a lot of things, but expanding knowledge and exploration for the sake of doing it is just not really one of those things. 


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

  I would venture a guess that private companies could do considerably more with less than 1/2 this amount of funding per year.


But they don't, which is largely why NASA still exists. 

Capitalism is awesome at a lot of things, but expanding knowledge and exploration for the sake of doing it is just not really one of those things. 


Thats the problem with private funding. If theres no money to be made then the private sector will not do a mission.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

  I would venture a guess that private companies could do considerably more with less than 1/2 this amount of funding per year.


But they don't, which is largely why NASA still exists. 

Capitalism is awesome at a lot of things, but expanding knowledge and exploration for the sake of doing it is just not really one of those things. 
Wasnt my arguing point. ROFL made the comment that they acheived so much with the funding they had. It came across as amazement. My argument was whether someone could do the same with less, not whether it would be done. While it boggles the mind at how much money has been spent, my argument isnt whether it should, but that the results are not that amazing considering massive amount of money that has been funneled into it. While I by no means can enumerate the advances gained by this spending by heart, I have confidence in saying the it isnt really that amazing if you compare advances gained with dollars spent. Velcro and Tang are awesome, but....
 
I think some of this leads to the problems we now have with people not endorsing the money being spent. Especially in tough times, people start questioning the spending of billions of dollars per year on what still seems to be far off fantasy. ITT most people at the outset of all of this expected us to have colonies on the Moon and regular visits to Mars by now. Instead, we have a now defunct program resulting in museum peices and we don't really seem any closer to Star Trek than we were in the 70's.
 
We are to a certain degree a results oriented society. We want to see advances, not just more of the same.


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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 1:33pm
Quote My argument was whether someone could do the same with less, not whether it would be done. 

Ah, roger 10-4. 


Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 2:55pm
My argument isn't even that capitalistic models could do better than NASA did as far as research goes, but rather that NASA spent unwisely for many, many years. Instead of using the Redstone or other ICBM based rocket which had been proven capable already, NASA insisted on moving forward with the Vanguard series of rockets which failed miserably. Only 3 out of 11 launches successfully put anything into orbit. That's $95,384,676.60 just in the cost of the rockets alone (no satellites, etc) which were wasted when we could have succeeded (and even beat the Russians) using Redstone or a similar vehicle.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 2:56pm
I did some additional thinking on this. I know, scary. Shouldn't a better statement be "our dreams got crushed?" While I am not a rocket scientist or astro physicist, I am a minor space geek. I watch shows about whether warp drive propulsion, phasers, light speed travel, artificial gravity and other Star Trek fantasy is ever going to be a reality and most often it seems that on the big questions, the answer is "probably not." When we entered the space race, i would say most people were pretty ignorant, probably still true, about the possibilities of space travel and everyone thought we would be living on Mars by now and have the capability to travel to other galaxies maybe by the end of the century. I remember at the end of the Space Mountain ride at Disney World, back in the 70's and 80's,  there used to be an area sponsored by RCA that was called " The World of Tomorrow" IIRC that had us all living in space and driving jet cars and such. What a joke that seems now.
 
Are we finally facing the truths that the likelihood of us ever venturing beyond our solar system ala Star Trek is a total and absolute fantasy no matter how much money we throw at it? Is it because we have become more educated about space travel and realize it is neither equitable or really possible to do in a realistic timeframe? When we were spending buttloads of money to get men onto the moon, we thought that was just a first step. I would bet that most people saw us using that as a stepping stone to venturing farther. Now do we know that was probably the last step and don't understand or approve the continued spending of billions upon billions of dollars per year without any end game result? I love the idea of the human race spreading out and colonizing the universe, exploring strange new worlds and going where no man has gone before, but at what cost and will it ever happen?


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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: BARREL BREAK
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:01pm
The idea of colonizing other planets is a hilarious farce, the human race will likely never reach beyond our own solar system, and why would we even want to go to the other planets here? Nothing but barren wastes. But thanks to science fiction we have an intense yearning to waste untold sums of money on those dreams instead of attempting to make it possible for all of humanity to live equitably here.


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I watch shows about whether warp drive propulsion, phasers, light speed travel, artificial gravity and other Star Trek fantasy is ever going to be a reality and most often it seems that on the big questions, the answer is "probably not."


I'm going to take a minor detour on this forum along a path called "Why Star Trek Fails" courtesy of OPBN's comments above.  Now, don't get me wrong, I liked all of the various Star Trek series; even Voyager and Enterprise.  But I just can't see people being able to live in the world that Roddenberry envisioned.

My two main points I always come back to when thinking about this:

  • No poverty, hunger, etc. (Essentially a utopian future as far as Earth is concerned.)  My question would be what happened to all the slackers?  You know, the guys that would rather play video games than join Star Fleet and make the Universe a better place.  Did they all suddenly become more mature or are they still sponging off of society?  Or were they eliminated for the common good of the rest of Earth civilization?
  • Phasers.  The military will never have phasers.  The urge to misuse the stun setting would just be too great and eventually someone would lose an eye.  (Or get accidentally vaporized.)

I've thought of other examples at times, but these are my main ones.  Feel free to add your own.



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Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:09pm
This is Bologna Stuff.  I had a dream last night.  Or is it talking about while we're awake?

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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:15pm
Where did the misconception come from, that the moon race. Was highly favored by the public?


Posted By: BARREL BREAK
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:15pm
 Star Trek is supposed to take place in a post-scarcity society, sponging off society is a meaningless idea in such a world. In the absence of scarcity crime and the need for a police force disappear.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

  • No poverty, hunger, etc. (Essentially a utopian future as far as Earth is concerned.)  My question would be what happened to all the slackers?  You know, the guys that would rather play video games than join Star Fleet and make the Universe a better place.  Did they all suddenly become more mature or are they still sponging off of society?  Or were they eliminated for the common good of the rest of Earth civilization?
They still had them, they were called the Pakleds.  Actually the latest movie kind of contradicts the utopian society in that Kirk starts out the movie as a drifter of sorts.

Originally posted by Mack the benevolent Mod Mack the benevolent Mod wrote:

  • Phasers.  The military will never have phasers.  The urge to misuse the stun setting would just be too great and eventually someone would lose an eye.  (Or get accidentally vaporized.)

Or using them as space age ruffies



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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:16pm

Is this one step closer or something completely different?



 Taken from DiscoverMagazine.com
9: Teleportation Gets Real

by Kathy A. Svitil
From the January 2005 issue; published online January 3, 2005


The science-fiction fantasy of teleportation became reality this year, at least on the atomic scale. In independent papers published in June, groups led by experimental physicists Rainer Blatt of the University of Innsbruck in Austria and by David Wineland of the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Boulder, Colorado, described using laser pulses to transfer information from one atom to another in a different location. Although their methods were slightly different, the results were exactly the same: The second atom became completely indistinguishable from the first, just as if information had disappeared from one atom and appeared at the other one without traveling through the space in between.

The distances involved are slight—less than 200 micrometers—and the technique works only for information about the atoms, not the atoms themselves, making it a far cry from the images conjured up by Star Trek’s transporter. Nevertheless, quantum teleportation is a giant step toward one of physicists’ most ambitious goals: building a quantum computer—an ultrafast, supersecure, huge-memory number-crunching device that uses atomic particles instead of transistors to retain and process information.



Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:29pm

No stun option?

Taken from FoxNews.com

One if by land … lasers if by sea.

A futuristic laser mounted on a speeding cruiser successfully blasted a bobbing, weaving boat from the waters of the Pacific Ocean -- the first test at sea of such a gun and a fresh milestone in the Navy's quest to reoutfit the fleet with a host of laser weapons, the Navy announced Friday.

"We were able to have a destructive effect on a high-speed cruising target," chief of Naval research Rear Adm. Nevin Carr told FoxNews.com.

The test occurred Wednesday near San Nicholas Island, off the coast of Central California in the Pacific Ocean test range, from a laser gun mounted onto the deck of the Navy’s self-defense test ship, former USS Paul Foster.

In a video of the event, the small boat can be seen catching fire and ultimately bursting into flames, a conflagration caused by the navy's distant gun. Some details of the event were classified, including the exact range of the shot, but Carr could provide some information: "We're talking miles, not yards," Carr said.

The Navy, Army and other armed forces have been working to incorporate so called "directed energy" laser weapons in a range of new guns, from tank-mounted blasters to guns on planes or unmanned balloons. But this marks the first test of a laser weapon at sea -- and proof that laser rifles are no mere Buck Rogers daydream.

“This is the first time a [high-energy-laser], at these power levels, has been put on a Navy ship, powered from that ship and used to defeat a target at-range in a maritime environment,” said Peter Morrison, program officer for the Office of Naval Research.

"The Navy is moving strongly towards directed energy," Carr told FoxNews.com.

The weapon, called the maritime laser demonstrator, was built in partnership with Northrop Grumman. It focused 15 kilowatts of energy by concentrating it through a solid medium -- hence the name.

"We call them solid state because they use a medium, usually something like a crystal," explained Quentin Saulter, the research office's program officer. It was used in Wednesday's demonstration against a small boat, but Carr told FoxNews.com that this and other types of laser weaponry could be equally effective against planes and even targets on shore.

"To begin to address a cruise missile threat, we'd need to get up to hundreds of kilowatts," Carr said.

The Navy is working on just such a gun of course.

Called the FEL -- for free-electron laser, which doesn't use a gain medium and is therefore more versatile -- it was tested in February consuming a blistering 500 kilovolts of energy, producing a supercharged electron beam that can burn through 20 feet of steel per second.

The FEL will easily get into the kilowatt power range. It can also be easily tuned as well, to adjust to environmental conditions, another reason it is more flexible than the fixed wavelength of solid-state laser. But the Navy doesn't expect to release megawatt-class FEL weapons until the 2020s; among the obstacles yet to be overcome, the incredible power requirements of the FEL weapons require careful consideration.

Also in the Navy's futuristic arsenal: a so-called "rail gun," which uses an electomagnetic current to accelerate a non-explosive bullet at several times the speed of sound.

Railguns are even further off in the distance, possibly by 2025, the Navy has said. But the demonstration of the maritime laser demonstrator this week proves that some laser weapons are just around the corner: Northrop Grumman experts aim to have the final product ready by June of 2014.

"One of the things that amazes me about this business is that the future is getting closer every day," Carr said.



Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Where did the misconception come from, that the moon race. Was highly favored by the public?


Movies? I think it is rather common knowledge that the race to the moon wasn't all that well received publicl at the time, and een after a sucessful landing, public enthusiasm was less than stell.(harhar)

INb4 you turn this into a government conspiracy too.



This post brought to you by two very dialated eyes. I can't see my screen, so I imagine itsrather roughshod.


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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:38pm

Originally posted by LB LB wrote:

Interesting lazer boat story
Stupid question, but wouldn't an easy defense to this be a big mirror? And why was "sharks with lasers on their heads" the first thing to come to mind?



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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:41pm
I believe it is ignorant to think that the things of the future will never happen. Did you ever realize that people in the 19th century would scoff at the idea of manned flight? Sure things seem impossible right now, but look at how far we have come in just the past 100 years.


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by LB LB wrote:

Interesting lazer boat story
Stupid question, but wouldn't an easy defense to this be a big mirror? And why was "sharks with lasers on their heads" the first thing to come to mind?



I think unless the entire vessel was a mirror, that thing is going to burst into flames because of the amount of energy being tossed at it.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

I believe it is ignorant to think that the things of the future will never happen. Did you ever realize that people in the 19th century would scoff at the idea of manned flight? Sure things seem impossible right now, but look at how far we have come in just the past 100 years.
How far have we come in 20 years?* I was in college 20 years ago and it had been over 20 years since we landed on the moon.  Let's see, we let our fleet of space shuttles go out of commission. We've landed space probes on Mars and sent back pictures. Not seeing a lot else besides computer technology IMO.
 
It's actually the lack of ignorance saying that some things are very unlikely to happen. I am not basing it off of my own knowledge, which is limited I assure you, I base it off of several things I have read and TV shows watched dedicated to the discussion of the ideas of warp drives/space travel etc. Even at the speed of light, which it's debated is even possible to acheive, you are looking at many years of travel to reach the closest solar system. IIRC, to reach one that has a planet that we THINK may be able to sustain life is farther than that. Without lightspeed travel, it would take lifetimes.
 
* I see you edited it. Your original time was only 20 years. My point was that we have stalled it seems shortly after reaching the moon.


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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by LB LB wrote:

Interesting lazer boat story
Stupid question, but wouldn't an easy defense to this be a big mirror? And why was "sharks with lasers on their heads" the first thing to come to mind?



I think unless the entire vessel was a mirror, that thing is going to burst into flames because of the amount of energy being tossed at it.
Not impossible to do. I've seen freaking chrome cars before.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

The idea of colonizing other planets is a hilarious farce, the human race will likely never reach beyond our own solar system, and why would we even want to go to the other planets here? Nothing but barren wastes. But thanks to science fiction we have an intense yearning to waste untold sums of money on those dreams instead of attempting to make it possible for all of humanity to live equitably here.

But there are motivating reasons to do these things.

Aside from the blatantly obvious one of our Earth won't be here forever, and spreading Humanity out is the next natural  progression to preserve ourselves, there are countless economic benefits. Minerals and materials naturally occurring off of Earth in quantities that will be practical to mine, for starters.There's the potential for discovering new lifeforms (intelligent or otherwise) which could open up new understandings of biology and chemistry. The rise of entirely new industries centered around space, exploration, manufacturing, and research.The list goes on and on.

But let's not even consider travel outside of this solar system. Let's just look at economic opportunities that exist. The asteroid belt beyond Mars contains a massive amount of the leftover materials from the formation of our sun. Aside from Hydrogen, Oxygen and Water, heavy metals such as gold, platinum, nickle, iron and virtually any other metal in industry occur in obscene quantities (where do you think these metals on Earth originally came from?). Some estimates say that a single 1km diameter asteroid could have a value in the trillions of dollars. 

Aside from mining in space, we can build in space as well. Zero gravity creates many challenges, but it removes many others as well. One instance I can think of is semiconductor manufacturing. The average modern day fab costs billions of dollars and its equipment becomes antiquated in only a few years. Much of that cost is due to the equipment, but a substantial amount goes into developing clean rooms and dealing with defects in silicon due to uncontrollable phenomenon. Move your fab to space, and provide appropriate cosmic shielding and you're now building in the largest cleanroom ever.

Not to mention pollution isn't an issue in space. If we want to manufacture dirty or dangerous substances, what better place then space?

Heck, lets address some other concerns while we're at it. Power and Energy are big items today. Solar power has long been popular as a clean option, but it's only available for portions of the day. What if we put solar arrays in space? Or even nuclear reactors in space (see dirty and dangerous above). We can beam power down in microwaves, or maybe even resonant induction. Cheap, clean, reliable power.

The biggest obstacle in space isn't distance or time, we can deal with those items later, it's getting into space to begin with. We've always used rockets, but they are terribly inefficient. To reach space, our rockets have to hit 7.8km/s. By comparison, a bullet might travel around 4300km/hour. To achieve this, we use multistage rockets to provide that extra boost. This is the equivalent of firing a bullet, then that bullet containing a gun that fires another bullet. That third bullet contains still another gun that fires yet another bullet. This process would have to repeat itself 8 times to hit our required escape velocity.

That's where proposals such as space elevators come into play. These could conceivably make moving people and materials into and out of orbit economical. The trouble is these things require materials that just don't exist yet. But putting money into programs like NASA or even other research agencies could make space travel practical.

So, no, it's not a waste of money.


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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 4:02pm
It would have to become vastly cheaper to get things into space to make space mining even remotely profitable. I remember this being covered. Also, value is based on current prices. Much like oil, once you dump 100 million tons of gold onto the market, the price is going to bottom out, thus lowering the value and making it even less interesting to spend billions of dollars building space ships to mine for gold.  It's not impossible, but you have to weigh the value of the asset against what it costs to source it.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 4:09pm
The fact that astronauts are still strapping  gas cans and a giant bottle rockets to their rear ends to explore space is laughable.     


Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 4:42pm
Now, I'm no space expert, but I'm pretty sure there is a ton of dust in space.  Even if there isn't, the amount of debris we have thrown up there has made it anything but a clean room.  Also, I really doubt pollution wouldn't be a problem.  Remember, it has to come down sometime. 

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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 4:53pm

It took me a while, but it dawned on me why Darurs post bothered me. All these situations, aside from saving mankind, are activities that should be carried out by private enterprises. Neither mining, nor semiconductor manufacturing are activites that should be carried out by the government. If mining is such a tremendous and profitable activity, let the private sector have at it.  Your post is actually a near perfect support for reasons why space exploration should be privatized.



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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: BARREL BREAK
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 5:13pm
Coming soon: The moon, brought to you by Viagra.


Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 6:13pm
Discussions like this are the reason I keep coming back here. We should have these more often.

I'll respond some when I'm not teaching (My childrens are busy on a press release right now).


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 6:22pm
Science, and space exploration, should have INCREASED funding if anything. The NASA budget is a crumb off of America's plate yet they just want to keep cutting it down.

It's sad sometimes to think about where we COULD be, and where we are.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 6:40pm
Canadians should feel free to kick in a few billion a year anytime they want.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 6:54pm
I found this link regarding space debris interesting

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=40173" rel="nofollow - Space debris pics

Maybe we can start a colony on Uranus and fix that planet too.


Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

Coming soon: The moon, brought to you by Viagra.


/Uranus joke


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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo


Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 7:49pm
Can somebody please address the spam filter. I've just typed up a xxxxxxxxx thesis-length response and there's something in there that keeps kicking it out.

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<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>


Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

The idea of colonizing other planets is a hilarious farce, the human race will likely never reach beyond our own solar system, and why would we even want to go to the other planets here? Nothing but barren wastes.


The survival of humanity is among the stars. I'm not talking about a million years from now, or even two million, but within the next thousand years, there simply will not be enough land, enough resources, enough of anything for the human race to continue to not only grow, but survive outright. Your classification of other worlds in our solar system being "barren wastes" is so far off the mark, one would think you're stuck back in the "viking" days of exploration when grainy stills of Mars were sent back from those landers showing what appeared to be a dingy, waterless waste which we have since found out is an incredible planet with the necessary elements to support life. The same can be said of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn.


Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 7:50pm

What is truly important about going to other bodies within our own solar system is that we will need to tap the resources available out there to continue our own existence and advancement. Not only will we need the room, be it off-world colonies or cities in orbit, but we will need to expand the well from which we draw our resources. We only have finite amounts of rare elements and many, many other important elements to continue to advance our technology. It is estimated that some of the asteroids in our own belt, just between us and Mars, hold more of these elements in their relatively small bodies, than our entire planet does in its crust.


It is impossible to know exactly what our future holds, but we have to remember that we actaully have a few billion years to figure out faster than light travel in some form or another to get us to other systems and other planets. This would allow us to continue on past the death of our own life-giving star. To think that we are at the top of our game in physics and technology, to be able to say that interstellar travel is "farcical" is in and of itself a farce.

Where ND-T errs in his speech is to assume that during the space race, and even after the moon landings, the general public felt that NASA and space exploration were worth funding. They almost never did. The reality is that the only time in public record that opinion swung to the side of "the funding is worth the end result" was the year that we landed on the moon for the first time. All years leading up to, and following the initial moon landing point to less than half the population of the US supporting the costs associated with such scientific strides. We've simply been sold the myth of the supportive nation wanting to beat the Ruskies to the moon. In reality, we'd probably have never had to do so if we'd simply used a Redstone missile to put a satellite into orbit far earlier than the Russians with their R7 rocket family which were (and still are) essentially modified ICBMs.

Degrasse-Tyson likes to talk about how we used to "Dream" when the reality is that he draws on commercial marketing ploys rather than scientific advances of the day. In reality, commercialization did more to fuel his idyllic "dream" than any cold, hard science from JPL or Goddard.

Also, the music is from "Una Mattina" by Ludvico Einauldi who is a fantastic pianist and composer. I own the album. It is fantastic.


Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 7:55pm
The word "Lit.erally" screws it all up....


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

within the next thousand years, there simply will not be enough land, enough resources, enough of anything for the human race to continue to not only grow, 
Of course there is some school of thought that something will happen before this time to thin the herd.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Benjichang
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 8:46pm
I just wonder if we'll all kill ourselves and the planet before we really figure out how to get off of it.

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irc.esper.net
#paintball


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 8:58pm
Yeah we're fixing it real good right now


Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

I just wonder if we'll all kill ourselves and the planet before we really figure out how to get off of it.


I don't doubt that a rather large "cull" will occur before too much longer (in a geological time-scale sense) but the chances of the entire human race being wiped out by our own devices is slim when you actually sit down and think about it. By the end of the last ice age, the estimated human population for the whole planet was only around 20,000. That's less than half the population of the very small city I grew up in. Fairbanks, Alaska has more permanent residents than that by over 10k. If humankind was able to bounce back from that with nothing more than neolithic tools and hunter-gatherer lifestyles, I'm pretty sure we're resilient enough to deal with most of what could be thrown at us, especially given the wealth of shared knowledge we now possess not only online, but in good old-fashioned books.


Posted By: RoboCop
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 10:26pm
I'm more interested in finding other planets that are habitable. Not because I think we will get there, that would take a group of people populating themselves and training children strictly how to colonize a different planet, but to find other life forms. It's not realistic to send people past our solar system. Even if man were to go into the deep part of our solar system, they would be gone for so long they would be extremely disconnected. I believe it is fully possible to go to farther planets but it would be costly. If we could find other life, it would be the biggest discovery ever. I'm sure the churches would be freaking out. As a Christian, I believe there is other life. How could we be the only ones when there are so many possibilities? We have discovered some similar Earth planets, but they are always too hot and life wouldn't be possible. We just have to keep looking. It doesn't help we can barely observe other planets until they pass I front of their host star.

I love being a physics major with an astronomy minor.


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 8:11am
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

* I see you edited it. Your original time was only 20 years. My point was that we have stalled it seems shortly after reaching the moon.


Sorry about that, but I get what your saying for the relative short term, but I'm trying to talk long-term.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 8:17am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

* I see you edited it. Your original time was only 20 years. My point was that we have stalled it seems shortly after reaching the moon.


Sorry about that, but I get what your saying for the relative short term, but I'm trying to talk long-term.
Right, and long term, we look to have stalled. There is a massive technology jump from shooting big bottle rockets up into space and being capable of warping time and space to be able to reach other planets within a matter of days/months. We may have come a long ways, but we are not even close to something on this scale. Relatively speaking, we are still using rocks to clean pelts compared to where we need to be for this type of technology.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 9:51am
So, because we have "stalled," we should just keep cutting funding until we have nothing left to go on and rely on for-profit companies that have no interest in furthering humanity other than their own interests?

 Even if private companies wanted to go to new planets (or hell, even the moon (which is completely possible)) to mine their resources, it would cost way more than any company could afford or be willing to risk. And that is the major problem that we have with privatizing the space industry. I'm not trying to say we should travel through space and time, which I agree is well beyond our grasp for the next couple hundred years, I'm saying that we should be able to reach within our own solar system in a relatively short time - if we put the effort into it.

Edit: punctuation and formatting


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 9:54am
I mean this in the best possible way, but can the Canadian contengency please stop using the term "we" when referring to money that the U.S. Taxpayers put towards NASA and space exploration?

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 9:59am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

So, because we have "stalled," we should just keep cutting funding until we have nothing left to go on and rely on for-profit companies that have no interest in furthering humanity other than their own interests?

 Even if private companies wanted to go to new planets (or hell, even the moon (which is completely possible)) to mine their resources, it would cost way more than any company could afford or be willing to risk. And that is the major problem that we have with privatizing the space industry. I'm not trying to say we should travel through space and time, which I agree is well beyond our grasp for the next couple hundred years, I'm saying that we should be able to reach within our own solar system in a relatively short time - if we put the effort into it.

Edit: punctuation and formatting

Gubmint has a way of funding the private sector when it benefits them.  

What happened to Johny Private Sector Moonshot from England?



Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 10:00am
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I mean this in the best possible way, but can the Canadian contengency please stop using the term "we" when referring to money that the U.S. Taxpayers put towards NASA and space exploration?


That was the Royal "We."

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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 10:02am
Looking more into it, there is some sort of Canadian Space Agency, but funding is less that 1/3 of a billion per year.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I mean this in the best possible way, but can the Canadian contengency please stop using the term "we" when referring to money that the U.S. Taxpayers put towards NASA and space exploration?


That was the Royal "We."


We don't HAVE royals in America. It's not our fault those silly Canucks still love the old broad. Smile


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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 10:03am
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I mean this in the best possible way, but can the Canadian contengency please stop using the term "we" when referring to money that the U.S. Taxpayers put towards NASA and space exploration?


I'm sorry, I didn't know the USA owned the solar system. Excuse me.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 10:15am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I mean this in the best possible way, but can the Canadian contengency please stop using the term "we" when referring to money that the U.S. Taxpayers put towards NASA and space exploration?


I'm sorry, I didn't know the USA owned the solar system. Excuse me.
Apology accepted. Don't let it happen again.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I mean this in the best possible way, but can the Canadian contengency please stop using the term "we" when referring to money that the U.S. Taxpayers put towards NASA and space exploration?


When I say "we" I mean humans. Curiosity and exploration is important. Heck how little we know about our own oceans is mind boggling. Yes it's crazy huge, but it's ON OUR PLANET and we know more about the moon than the ocean floor.

Science needs funding, it's crucial to our progression in innumerable ways.


Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

It took me a while, but it dawned on me why Darurs post bothered me. All these situations, aside from saving mankind, are activities that should be carried out by private enterprises. Neither mining, nor semiconductor manufacturing are activites that should be carried out by the government. If mining is such a tremendous and profitable activity, let the private sector have at it.  Your post is actually a near perfect support for reasons why space exploration should be privatized.


Sorry, been busy, but I'll try and address this and a few other points.

You are right that these are all activities which should be, and would be, carried out by private enterprises. The trouble is, it's just not worth the massive investment in capital for a firm to perform the research and development to overcome these hurdles. Like Whale said, the free-market is fantastic at doing things cheaply and efficiently, but it doesn't necessarily handle investing in future like this very well.

There needs to be a substantial investment to develop the tools and technology to enter space affordability, and very few private firms will be able or interested in making that investment. That's why programs like NASA are crucial. They provide the funding to make this research happen, even when the monetary returns from the research are not assured.

Now some private firms have been doing this themselves for a while. SpaceX and Virgin Galactic come to mind. But we should still be trying to provide incentives for this type of research.


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Real Men play Tuba

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PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf!

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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 6:33pm

So we as a country should invest billions upon billions of dollars into research and development so that commercial companies can make money? Seems that much like oil shales. They aren't profitable to use unless oil is above X number of dollars per gallon. I would think the same principles should apply to building spacecraft for the purpose of mining. Why should the government foot the bill for building clean rooms in outerspace so companies worth a kagillion dollars can make semiconductors easier? Answer is, we shouldn't. The people standing to make a profit from such endevours should be the ones footing the bill. 



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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 7:13pm
Because these are investments everyone stands to benefit from.

I listed those activities as short-term advantages of investing in space flight technology that we could realize in the very near future, as an example of why this research is practical. That being said, investing in developing the major industries of tomorrow and securing the economic future of this country seems like a good idea to me.

There are vast technological hurdles we need to overcome to realize affordable space flight technology, and the technology we will need to develop will have benefits for all of society. 

Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.


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Real Men play Tuba

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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:


Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.
Lets drop the snarky and how about you enlighten me? I'd love to hear about these values of spending billions of dollars building space colonies.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 7:54pm
This could be a short cut to the dilemma; who believes in aliens? I personally don't whatsoever.


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:


Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.
Lets drop the snarky and how about you enlighten me? I'd love to hear about these values of spending billions of dollars building space colonies.


Stand to gain more than spending trillions upon trillions on "Defence."

$500B/yr > $18B/yr


Also, there must be something to gain as http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/9141416/Russia-to-finally-send-man-to-the-Moon.html" rel="nofollow - Russia and http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/china-to-go-to-moon-mars-venus-and-beyond-53321" rel="nofollow - China are going to the moon. Hell, China is sending probes to Mars and Venus and are also building space labs for Earth Orbit.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:


Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.
Lets drop the snarky and how about you enlighten me? I'd love to hear about these values of spending billions of dollars building space colonies.


Stand to gain more than spending trillions upon trillions on "Defence."

$500B/yr > $18B/yr
Like? I spend trillions of dollars on defense and I have tons of missles, ships, tank, planes, armies, satellites etc. I spend billion of dollars, more likely trillions, building space colonies  and I have a space pit that does nothing but give a bunch of ET geeks boners thinking about living on Saturn that I get to keep dumping money into. I have yet to hear of one legitimate benefit of having a space colony. ONE. And dont give me the mining crap. Unless we can mine coal, oil, or natural gas...oh wait we cant because those are based on organic carbon deposits, its not valid. 

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 11:34pm
1. You can't mine natural gas.
2. Ever stop to think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, other planets might have resources that we don't know exist? Do you really believe that planets other than Earth are made out of solid rock with nothing in them at all?
3. There are other more valuable things than oil or coal. They will not run the energy of tomorrow.

Here is not one, but many legitimate benefits of harvesting resources from our own solar system (just for you):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Tech/Space/mars.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Tech/Space/mars.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9752269/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/mine-moon-hubble-points-hot-spots/#.T2AQT9WM_-M" rel="nofollow - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9752269/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/mine-moon-hubble-points-hot-spots/#.T2AQT9WM_-M
http://www.space.com/9250-mining-rare-minerals-moon-vital-national-security.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.space.com/9250-mining-rare-minerals-moon-vital-national-security.html
http://www.tech-faq.com/space-mining.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.tech-faq.com/space-mining.html

Honestly, just google it.

Believe it or not, mining IS valuable. But like any other business it requires a capitol to start up the processes.






Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 1:47am
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:


Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.
Lets drop the snarky and how about you enlighten me? I'd love to hear about these values of spending billions of dollars building space colonies.


Absolutely no snark meant. I sincerely apologize if you got that impression, but there really isn't much else I can say.

From my perspective, the natural progression of mankind is to explore and spread across the world.


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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 3:16am
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:



Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.
Lets drop the snarky and how about you enlighten me? I'd love to hear about these values of spending billions of dollars building space colonies.


Because the quest to understand our existance is important, and simply being comfortable where we are with what we know now isn't enough and is unhealthy.


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 8:55am
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:


Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.
Lets drop the snarky and how about you enlighten me? I'd love to hear about these values of spending billions of dollars building space colonies.


Absolutely no snark meant. I sincerely apologize if you got that impression, but there really isn't much else I can say.

From my perspective, the natural progression of mankind is to explore and spread across the world.
Assuming you meant Solar system? Universe? Either way, lets take this into consideration. Man has done such a wonderful job here on Earth, so let's spread the joy to other planets? Colonization sound all warm and fuzzy until you really think about it. Unless a planet is found exactly like the earth or capable of being terraformed to a striking likeness how appealing is it going to be? I know people get all jazzed up about living on the moon, but seriously, think about it. How freaking miserable would it be? Lets see, I live in a large biodome, probably with less space than I have on earth and do what? It's not like I can just step outside and go hiking or riding a bike. Unless they are earthlike planets, we would be contained to living our lives out inside giant sardine cans. Occasionally, we would be able to go outside in the moons atmosphere, but only after donning a spacesuit. While fun for a short time, I don't see the joy of bouncing around the moons surface lasting all that long. People have these images of finding and coloizing planets where they are all earthlike. So far, I am not aware of any such planets being found or confirmed. And even if they were, they are hundreds of light years away. So a group of people are going to spend a couple of generations in space to colonize some planet that may or may not work out? You are looking at millenia before something like this is even remotely viable.
 
Reading some of the mining stuff, there is potentially some value in this, but as ROFL mentions, it takes capital to progress and that is where and why private industry should be looking into this. I have no problem with NASA lending its expertise, but as for tax payers footing the bill, not sure I am for it. If XYZ company wants to mine in space, go at it, but go at it with your money as you are the one that stands to profit from it, not the government.
 
And in regards to mining, it seems from what I have read that its mostly agreed upon that this will take place remotely using robotics, not using direct human labor. So again, it still brings in the question of the viability of continued manned space flight.


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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 9:05am
Will I get a cut from the vast resources to be mined from the asteroid belt?

No? Then don't use my tax money to fund research in finding out how to get it, just so a private company can utilize it.


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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo


Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 9:28am
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Will I get a cut from the vast resources to be mined from the asteroid belt?

No? Then don't use my tax money to fund research in finding out how to get it, just so a private company can utilize it.


Who's to say the government won't tax the mining company? How are you not going to gain from a stronger economy?


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 9:40am
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:



Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.
Lets drop the snarky and how about you enlighten me? I'd love to hear about these values of spending billions of dollars building space colonies.


Because the quest to understand our existance is important, and simply being comfortable where we are with what we know now isn't enough and is unhealthy.
Why? To whom is it important? How does spending incredible amounts of money to send people to other planets help us understand our existence? Hit me back, I'll spark up a fatty and maybe I'll get what you are saying.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: High Voltage
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 12:17pm


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Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Assuming you meant Solar system? Universe? Either way, lets take this into consideration. Man has done such a wonderful job here on Earth, so let's spread the joy to other planets? Colonization sound all warm and fuzzy until you really think about it. Unless a planet is found exactly like the earth or capable of being terraformed to a striking likeness how appealing is it going to be? I know people get all jazzed up about living on the moon, but seriously, think about it. How freaking miserable would it be? Lets see, I live in a large biodome, probably with less space than I have on earth and do what? It's not like I can just step outside and go hiking or riding a bike. Unless they are earthlike planets, we would be contained to living our lives out inside giant sardine cans. Occasionally, we would be able to go outside in the moons atmosphere, but only after donning a spacesuit. While fun for a short time, I don't see the joy of bouncing around the moons surface lasting all that long. People have these images of finding and coloizing planets where they are all earthlike. So far, I am not aware of any such planets being found or confirmed. And even if they were, they are hundreds of light years away. So a group of people are going to spend a couple of generations in space to colonize some planet that may or may not work out? You are looking at millenia before something like this is even remotely viable.
 
Reading some of the mining stuff, there is potentially some value in this, but as ROFL mentions, it takes capital to progress and that is where and why private industry should be looking into this. I have no problem with NASA lending its expertise, but as for tax payers footing the bill, not sure I am for it. If XYZ company wants to mine in space, go at it, but go at it with your money as you are the one that stands to profit from it, not the government.
 
And in regards to mining, it seems from what I have read that its mostly agreed upon that this will take place remotely using robotics, not using direct human labor. So again, it still brings in the question of the viability of continued manned space flight.

I was using "world" in the (slightly) archaic sense of meaning the known realm of all created things, but yes, both the solar system and universe fit that description.

But this isn't about simply finding another Earth to plop down a few cities, its much more than that. Understanding our Universe, its creation. Understanding new and exotic ways that planets can form and life can develop. Its about discovery. 

Humankind has a natural inclination to explore and learn. We've been expanding and exploring Earth since the arrival of our earliest ancestor. This is the next step in the progression of our society. 

Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Will I get a cut from the vast resources to be mined from the asteroid belt?

No? Then don't use my tax money to fund research in finding out how to get it, just so a private company can utilize it.

This is just silly.



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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 1:32pm
So we should spend billions of dollars a year to learn how planets formed....why? Before you try to compare this to past exploration and pretend it is this high calling, keep in mind, that few explorations truly occurred for exploration sake. Most if not all exploration had/has origins rooted on the quest for financial gains.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

 

Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Will I get a cut from the vast resources to be mined from the asteroid belt?

No? Then don't use my tax money to fund research in finding out how to get it, just so a private company can utilize it.

This is just silly.



Any particular reason why? I don't value "knowledge for the sake of knowledge." Thus, if this research will result in giving somebody else the opportunity and technology to make vast sums of money, why should I be part of the funding process?  I understand that plenty of people feel like there needs to be a non"profit driven" group devoted to exploring scientific unknowns, whether they have economic impacts or not. That's fine.

However, I don't see that plenty of these same discoveries won't be made in the process of privately funded enterprise.

Or, hell, chop NASA's budget down, open up the competition, and NASA can use it's smaller budget to piggyback on private vessels.


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Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

So we should spend billions of dollars a year to learn how planets formed....why? Before you try to compare this to past exploration and pretend it is this high calling, keep in mind, that few explorations truly occurred for exploration sake. Most if not all exploration had/has origins rooted on the quest for financial gains.

Why not?

Perhaps its easier to ask you, what is the future of humanity, in your perspective?


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Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:


Any particular reason why? I don't value "knowledge for the sake of knowledge." Thus, if this research will result in giving somebody else the opportunity and technology to make vast sums of money, why should I be part of the funding process?  I understand that plenty of people feel like there needs to be a non"profit driven" group devoted to exploring scientific unknowns, whether they have economic impacts or not. That's fine.

Because by that logic we should go ahead and end all government funded research into medicine, technology, and engineering. These are all hugely important fields where money comes from private enterprises, but also largely from the government. All of these fields produce enormous profits for private firms, but also enormous benefits for society.

It's not as simple as "if a company can make money, they should fund it". You'd think it is, and maybe it should be , but investing in research is risky for a company. Yes, many firms do their own private research, but often times that's funded by the government or some other source.  Often times research comes back saying "nope, we can't do that" and companies don't like to invest millions or billions to hear it was for nothing.

Quote

However, I don't see that plenty of these same discoveries won't be made in the process of privately funded enterprise.

Or, hell, chop NASA's budget down, open up the competition, and NASA can use it's smaller budget to piggyback on private vessels. 

And some day that would be the ideal case, but for now, the inventive to enter space needs some support.


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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:


Any particular reason why? I don't value "knowledge for the sake of knowledge." Thus, if this research will result in giving somebody else the opportunity and technology to make vast sums of money, why should I be part of the funding process?  I understand that plenty of people feel like there needs to be a non"profit driven" group devoted to exploring scientific unknowns, whether they have economic impacts or not. That's fine.

Because by that logic we should go ahead and end all government funded research into medicine, technology, and engineering. These are all hugely important fields where money comes from private enterprises, but also largely from the government. All of these fields produce enormous profits for private firms, but also enormous benefits for society.

It's not as simple as "if a company can make money, they should fund it". You'd think it is, and maybe it should be , but investing in research is risky for a company. Yes, many firms do their own private research, but often times that's funded by the government or some other source.  Often times research comes back saying "nope, we can't do that" and companies don't like to invest millions or billions to hear it was for nothing.

Quote

However, I don't see that plenty of these same discoveries won't be made in the process of privately funded enterprise.

Or, hell, chop NASA's budget down, open up the competition, and NASA can use it's smaller budget to piggyback on private vessels. 

And some day that would be the ideal case, but for now, the inventive to enter space needs some support.


I should probably refine my point by saying I'm not against ALL government funded research. I understand that there are some things the government can be involved in(ie; medicine) that may not get the attention it may need without some gov.'t support.

My large issue is research into things that have no practical value being funded by tax dollars.


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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo


Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

So we should spend billions of dollars a year to learn how planets formed....why? Before you try to compare this to past exploration and pretend it is this high calling, keep in mind, that few explorations truly occurred for exploration sake. Most if not all exploration had/has origins rooted on the quest for financial gains.

Why not?

Perhaps its easier to ask you, what is the future of humanity, in your perspective?
We can play this game all day. Essentially, you seem to feel that we should do it "just because". I don't feel that way. If there is a necessity sure, but in some cases, it simply doesnt make sense.
 
Now, if we were researching and developing rockets and machines to travel to asteroids as a means to destroy/deter possible "planet killer" asteroids, I have little issue with this. If part of the development leads to ideas or products that in turn can be used by the mining industry for use in collecting valuable minerals etc from asteroids, than I have little problem with that.
 
Much like I don't beleive we were placed here by some benevolent god, created in his likeness to serve an invisible master, I don't beleive we have any grand Star Trekkian responsibilities to solve the mysteries of the universe. I think we are some sort of galactic misfire that evovled into what we are today. It's nothing wonderous or fantastical, just is what it is.
 


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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:




Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.
Lets drop the snarky and how about you enlighten me? I'd love to hear about these values of spending billions of dollars building space colonies.


Because the quest to understand our existance is important, and simply being comfortable where we are with what we know now isn't enough and is unhealthy.
Why? To whom is it important? How does spending incredible amounts of money to send people to other planets help us understand our existence? Hit me back, I'll spark up a fatty and maybe I'll get what you are saying.


That's incredibly sad.


Posted By: GroupB
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 4:35pm
Pushing our limits and travelling to new places is inevitably going to lead us to develop new technology, materials, manufacturing processes that will eventually make its way into the lives of the average person.  Even if we don't get anything of use from other planets or going into space, the technology we develop in that pursuit will be useful here on Earth in ways that people never would have imagined.

http://space.balettie.com/Lovell.html" rel="nofollow - http://space.balettie.com/Lovell.html


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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:




Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.
Lets drop the snarky and how about you enlighten me? I'd love to hear about these values of spending billions of dollars building space colonies.


Because the quest to understand our existance is important, and simply being comfortable where we are with what we know now isn't enough and is unhealthy.
Why? To whom is it important? How does spending incredible amounts of money to send people to other planets help us understand our existence? Hit me back, I'll spark up a fatty and maybe I'll get what you are saying.


That's incredibly sad.
How so? Because I don't agree with you? I have yet to hear a single valid reason for attempting to set up manned colonies on other planets, other than "because it's important." If it is so freaking important, give me one flipping reason. ONE. I'm sick of the holier than though "if you can't see the value, I just can't help you" BS that some pseudo intellects try to pass off as wisdom. You aren't smarter or wiser than other people just because you think one thing or another is an important cause.

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"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.


Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 6:19pm
Because humans are going to kill each other if we don't find more space.

7 BILLION people......

KBK

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Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2


Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 6:33pm
^^^ . . . and once they do, the "more space" problem is solved for a while longer.

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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 7:28pm
Considering that a species might be expected to be around for a million years at best, and what we've proven capable of, it would be a shame to be content to sit on this planet and let the species die out. While the universe itself most likely has an expiration date, the world is screwed long before that. It's worth trying to prolong our existence. I'd really like to think other people would be able to enjoy a life and to learn, develop and do things for as long as possible. If expanding beyond our planet isn't worthwhile because you won't be around to appreciate it, why have kids or give back to the community, or create anything lasting beyond your lifespan?


Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 8:03pm


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:





Beyond that, if you can't see the value in setting up manned colonies on other planets and expanding out from Earth, then there really isn't much more I can say.
Lets drop the snarky and how about you enlighten me? I'd love to hear about these values of spending billions of dollars building space colonies.


Because the quest to understand our existance is important, and simply being comfortable where we are with what we know now isn't enough and is unhealthy.
Why? To whom is it important? How does spending incredible amounts of money to send people to other planets help us understand our existence? Hit me back, I'll spark up a fatty and maybe I'll get what you are saying.


That's incredibly sad.
How so? Because I don't agree with you? I have yet to hear a single valid reason for attempting to set up manned colonies on other planets, other than "because it's important." If it is so freaking important, give me one flipping reason. ONE. I'm sick of the holier than though "if you can't see the value, I just can't help you" BS that some pseudo intellects try to pass off as wisdom. You aren't smarter or wiser than other people just because you think one thing or another is an important cause.


Because if you can't see that from common sense, then you have some messed up priorities and a closed mind, and it would be a waste of time trying to explain it to you. You clearly take the age you live in for granted.


Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 10:49pm
Dammit guys, who voted this one 5 stars?  I work hard to rate all the topics one star.

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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo


Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 15 March 2012 at 12:18am
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

 
My large issue is research into things that have no practical value being funded by tax dollars.

How do you qualify if research has practical value for being funded by tax dollars?  What are some examples?

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

We can play this game all day. Essentially, you seem to feel that we should do it "just because". I don't feel that way. If there is a necessity sure, but in some cases, it simply doesnt make sense.
 
Now, if we were researching and developing rockets and machines to travel to asteroids as a means to destroy/deter possible "planet killer" asteroids, I have little issue with this. If part of the development leads to ideas or products that in turn can be used by the mining industry for use in collecting valuable minerals etc from asteroids, than I have little problem with that.
 
Much like I don't beleive we were placed here by some benevolent god, created in his likeness to serve an invisible master, I don't beleive we have any grand Star Trekkian responsibilities to solve the mysteries of the universe. I think we are some sort of galactic misfire that evovled into what we are today. It's nothing wonderous or fantastical, just is what it is.
 

There's no game being played, I'm just trying to understand your perspective.

You mention funding to stop "planet killer asteroids" (incidentally, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46647666/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/mid-size-asteroid-wont-hit-earth-nasa/#.T2FrShHy_9Z" rel="nofollow - this has been on the news recently, after just being discovered a few weeks ago, with the slightly unnerving observation that if that asteroid were to hit Earth, there is virtually nothing we could do to stop it, because the technology isn't in place and would take years  to develop etc. . . ) but what else would justify space exploration in your eyes? 


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Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 15 March 2012 at 12:21am
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I have yet to hear a single valid reason for attempting to set up manned colonies on other planets, other than "because it's important." If it is so freaking important, give me one flipping reason. ONE. I'm sick of the holier than though "if you can't see the value, I just can't help you" BS that some pseudo intellects try to pass off as wisdom. You aren't smarter or wiser than other people just because you think one thing or another is an important cause.


sigh Youre acting ignorant.

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

1. You can't mine natural gas.
2. Ever stop to think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, other planets might have resources that we don't know exist? Do you really believe that planets other than Earth are made out of solid rock with nothing in them at all?
3. There are other more valuable things than oil or coal. They will not run the energy of tomorrow.

Here is not one, but many legitimate benefits of harvesting resources from our own solar system (just for you):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Tech/Space/mars.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Tech/Space/mars.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9752269/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/mine-moon-hubble-points-hot-spots/#.T2AQT9WM_-M" rel="nofollow - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9752269/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/mine-moon-hubble-points-hot-spots/#.T2AQT9WM_-M
http://www.space.com/9250-mining-rare-minerals-moon-vital-national-security.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.space.com/9250-mining-rare-minerals-moon-vital-national-security.html
http://www.tech-faq.com/space-mining.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.tech-faq.com/space-mining.html

Honestly, just google it.



Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 15 March 2012 at 1:55am
OldPBNoob is akin to the ones saying the Earth is flat and you'll fall off it if you go too far away from land.

Honestly? You aren't interested in seeing what's out there? You don't want to push back the fog of not really knowing just a little bit?

While I agree there isn't a "devine calling" to do it, it is still interestring to see what's out there.


That being said, how are things like GPS units and Communication sattelites treating you?

KBK

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Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2


Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 15 March 2012 at 3:39am
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0283775/" rel="nofollow - The Planets


Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 15 March 2012 at 8:05am
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

OldPBNoob is akin to the ones saying the Earth is flat and you'll fall off it if you go too far away from land.

Honestly? You aren't interested in seeing what's out there? You don't want to push back the fog of not really knowing just a little bit?

While I agree there isn't a "devine calling" to do it, it is still interestring to see what's out there.


That being said, how are things like GPS units and Communication sattelites treating you?

KBK


GPS has made crappy drivers even crappier



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