Another one. Eesh.
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Topic: Another one. Eesh.
Posted By: SSOK
Subject: Another one. Eesh.
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 11:40am
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http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/24/13455394-several-people-shot-outside-empire-state-building?lite" rel="nofollow - http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/24/13455394-several-people-shot-outside-empire-state-building?lite
TL;DR somebody opened fire in NYC in front of the Empire State Building. INB4: Obama, Bloomburg (but I really, really dislike that guy anyway), 2A rights, NYC is a crappy place anyway, abortion, god, terrorists, Chik-Fil-A, etc. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 11:48am
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The reports I've read have said that the guy had either been laid off, or knew he was about to be laid off, and was waiting to ambush his boss outside of the building to kill him. Is it weird that I find that only slightly less disconcerting than the Colorado theater situation? The guy, at least, had a target of some kind as opposed to randomly spraying to kill as many as possible. Still an awful, awful situation though.
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 12:47pm
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If they had stricter gun control, this never would have happened. Seriously though, it's a shame that people died because of some wacko. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:19pm
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Stricter gun control would have stopped it More guns in the hands of law abiding citizens. global warming is obviously the cause. ------------- Que pasa? 
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:24pm
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I wouldn't jump to conclusions just yet on this one. The story said 2 were killed and one of those was the shooter. Who knows, maybe the other was his boss who could have been a huge dick. ------------- 
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Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:27pm
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I'm pretty sure the boss died along with the shooter. I think he was also a member of the Occupy the Tea Part movement. Edit* I wonder how many victims were accidentally shot by the police? ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:34pm
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Yeah, 2 dead, one of which was the shooter. No, it's not strange that it's less disturbing than Aurora. If it had happened in the projects or a trailer park over someone sleeping with someone else's wife, or someone owing someone else money, you wouldn't be reading about it. Olympics are over, I think most people are tired of politics at this point, and Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Iran are all old-hat, so the 24hour news media is jumping all over every incident they can. Apparently it was somehow news here in the DC Metro area when some guy out in Martinsburg, WV was jogging on a public sidewalk in his MOLLE gear with an orange-tipped dummy rifle, ruck sack, and empty mags to stay in shape while on terminal leave from the Army. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:39pm
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Well, it is a good thing that only the officers and the criminal were armed... Because clearly the officers would be able to take him down without anyone else being hit by their bullets. Oh wait. Looks like the officers actually did accidentally shoot some bystanders... We better just ban CCW anyway, since the cops clearly would never just shoot into a crowd if they might hit someone innocent. ------------- They tremble at my name... 
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 1:47pm
| Meh |
Posted By: sinisterNorth
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 2:28pm
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My local news reported this: http://www.wfmj.com/story/19352639/montana-man-injured-by-runaway-cow" rel="nofollow - http://www.wfmj.com/story/19352639/montana-man-injured-by-runaway-cow
------------- Pumpker'd; (V.) When a pump player runs up and shoots you at point blank range because you thought 20bps made you good. |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 2:34pm
It's pretty much the same thing.
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sinisterNorth wrote:Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 2:54pm
What is your argument here? ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: pntbl freak
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 3:16pm
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-shootings-chicago-violence-august-23-august-24-violence-gunfire-20120823,0,49779.story" rel="nofollow - http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-shootings-chicago-violence-august-23-august-24-violence-gunfire-20120823,0,49779.story
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 3:48pm
Just pointing out the obvious. In the theater shooting, liberals were spouting off about how if there were ccw people in the crowd then people would have missed the shooter and injured innocents. Because CCW's people aren't capable of handling a firearm like a highly trained officer who would never shoot an innocent person, when aiming at a criminal. Except... Anytime ANYONE fires a gun, someone innocent could get shot. It is part of the danger in our society when criminals run rampant, as they don't have to worry about the public being able to protect themselves. ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 6:17pm
------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 7:05pm
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Definitely a terrible argument. Not to mention it was in Manhattan. At 9 am. There are retarded amounts of people there at 9 am.... ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 1:30am
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I don't see this as any more than a murder. A stupidly public one, but a murder. People do that all the time. ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 5:34am
I am a proponent of carrying firearms, however consider this. It's a big crowd, everyone is CCWing. The guy shoots his boss, and all of a sudden 50 people draw their handguns and fire 2 shots. That's a lot of lead flying through the air and I would bet that more than 11 people would have been shot in the confusion. -------------
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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 8:29am
| People get shot every day lay off the koolaid you'll become a better man. |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 9:44am
I had written out a really well thought out follow up to this, but after about 30 tries, I can't get it through the spam filter. The tl;dr is CCH is for personal protection, not emergency response. Civilians are not trained to respond to emergencies. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 9:46am
Because it happened to a wealthy person in beloved NYC |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 11:47am
Agreed. The old standby of "if they'd had a CCW they'd be alive" is illogical for alot of reasons and I honestly believe that statistics wouldn't back up the idea. There was a courthouse shooting here in Texas, I believe, where a guy opened fire with an AK-47 and a CHL carrier with a .357 attempted to stop him. The dude missed (likely due to a combination of distance and sheer panic response) and was shot while the criminal was on his way out. He'd probably be alive had he not attempted to save the day.
I'm not saying all scenarios turn out like this, but you have instances like Aurora where even trained teams of officers are unable to intervene safely. An untrained individual with a handgun has a high likelilhood of just adding to the chaos.
Alot of people don't understand the difficulty of shooting under pressure. ------------- 
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 11:54am
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http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1" rel="nofollow - Police responsible for all nine non-shooter injuries. |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 12:09pm
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See, gun control would have made a difference. If the police hadn't been armed only one person would have died. (The gunman would have shot the victim then surrendered because he had done what he went there to do.)
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Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 1:48pm
The Tyler Courthouse shooting could have been a perfect example of concealed carry saving the day, but the shooter was wearing kevlar an armed with a MAK-90. The man that returned fire (CHL instructor if I'm not mistaken) was armed with a 1911 and hit the shooter multiple times in the torso. Even though the CHL holder didn't stop the shooter he turned the shooter's attention away from a child that he was about to kill. So yeah the CHL holder would have stayed alive if he chose to hide, but the child would most likely be dead. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 3:10pm
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Ah my memory was fuzzy, its been a while. I suppose that particular case would do more to contradict my point than confirm, but I'd still hold on to my idea :) -------------
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 3:24pm
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No it still makes your point. There are always considerations like that. Act and you may make things worse, don't and you may not make a difference where it counts. ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 4:03pm
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I personally like this one for the pro-CCW end of things: http://www.brownwoodnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9180:authorities-release-information-regarding-deadly-peach-house-rv-park-shooting-video&catid=35:news&Itemid=58" rel="nofollow - Link Reports are, dude hit the perp with his .357 at a pretty long distance (over 100 feet) ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 4:22pm
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Don't get me wrong-I'm totally pro CHL. I'll be getting one myself before the year's over. That's a good story, it's always nice when police and civilians can work together like that. I'd trust my life with a good .357 revolver out 25+ yards if I had to. My highway patrolman is damn near 30 years old and still drives tacks effortlessly. -------------
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 4:42pm
Funny you added that part in, the SHP here carry .357 sig ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 5:02pm
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I need to get my father in law's take on this one- he works in the firearms and tactics division for the NYPD, and apparently lack of training is being cited for the reason behind so many bystanders being wounded by police officers. I wonder if his section is going to get hammered because the suits are going to be looking to hang someone for this. ------------- ? |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 5:46pm
| Maybe they should be trained more. |
Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 7:40pm
People need to learn when getting a CHL that you still have to pick your battles. A crowded Street or being severely out gunned are both situations that you need to use caution when deciding to fight back or not. The CHL holder in Tyler, TX waited for the right moment to use the element of surprise and return fire, but he didn't know that there was a kevlar vest under the shooter's jacket. It shows that you can do everything right, but still end up in a body bag. I think when it comes to CHL classes the seriousness of possible consequences are lacking. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 25 August 2012 at 9:45pm
| With the high incidence of body armor being used by these nut jobs he could have considered aiming away from center mass. hind sight twenty twenty |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 3:48am
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Failure drills. They exist for a reason. COM and reassess. If they don't go down, try something different. It is one reason you need to be able to hit what you are aiming at, preferably under pressure. Even if it isn't armour, heavy winter clothing and somethings like drugs can make center mass shots ineffective. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:17am
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All this talk about CHL licenses- in NYC having one of those is practically impossible. Even my NYS license (which should come through soon now) will not be valid in NYC or surrounding counties. And for classes? I think I've mentioned it before, but in NY there's NO pre-license classes that allow for any trigger time at all, because the state doesn't allow you to even pick up a pistol until you're licensed. LEGALLY speaking in this state, you should have your concealed carry license before you ever pull a trigger on a pistol. ------------- ? |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:35am
This is something that amuses me politically-the preservation of individual states' rights. It's crazy how you can go just a short distance in America and wind up in a completely different political environment.
In Texas you can not only carry your handgun in your vehicle without a CHL, half the time they don't even ask any questions about it. I've been stopped a few times since I started carrying a handgun in my car and the police reactions ranged from "be careful carrying that" at worst to "hey that's a nice H&K" at the most amusing, -------------
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 3:30pm
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I'm all for carrying firearms. I've done it openly and concealed in Alaska a few times since I've been up here. Problem with CCW is there's this "sheepdog" movement happening where people are told to carry to be protectors of the "sheep" (non-ccw/non-survivalist folk). There are youtube videos all over which show and describe tales of armed civilians responding to shooters, muggers, and robbers. The message being broadcast is to "be the armed hero." There's more than enough talk regarding how to respond, but I have yet to see training regarding teamwork with other CCW people to get everyone to safety. I have yet to see realistic talk about how to recognize and shoot a threat and when it is appropriate to take the shot. It's because the gun is seen as the solution, not the person. The saying: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." works both ways. The legal ccw handgun isn't going to seek out and kill a gunman, the civilian carrying it has to do all the work. I don't believe any more than 1% of people who carry firearms do anything more than plink at stationary paper targets a few times a month, while those who want to play hero are likely in the vast majority. Laws will not change any of this. People on both sides of the political spectrum will fight to the bitter end to oppose mandatory situational training as a requirement for CCW. Gun culture needs to change. ------------- 
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Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 3:48pm
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The psychology associated with CCW is interesting. That's not a judgement of it one way or another, just saying that the psychological/sociological component of how carrying a firearm might be able to alter someone's cognitive approach to a situation makes me wish I did real science.
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 5:11pm
Don't know about you, but if I'm anywhere in the vicinity of a bad guy shooting at people, I'd much rather have a firearm on me than not, as it gives me not only options, but something to fight back with if it is so called for. So while you may not believe that standby, I believe the one of "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". Shoot, Illinois is the biggest anti-gun state in the US with concealed carry being illegal, yet Chicago is also the deadliest city in terms of firearm deaths... Just this weekend they've had 7 killed and 24 wounded. While 2000 US soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan since 2001, over 5000 people have been killed in Chicago from guns in the same time period. ------------- 
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 5:25pm
You're missing the point of what we're saying. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 5:58pm
No, I'm really not.
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 6:08pm
And no one here is arguing that point. In fact, I don't think theres been a single anti-CCH comment in the whole thread. What we're discussing is that in the event of an active shooter, like Aurora or NYC, a CCH holder is not adequately prepared or trained to combat the threat.(Versus say, a bank robbery or mugging attempt where there are fewer innocents that you may injure in your response to the threat) ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 6:18pm
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And who's to say who's adequately, or rather inadequately, trained just because they have a CCW/CHL/CCP/whatever your state calls it? Some LE agencies do minimal firearms training. There are CHL holders that shoot hundreds of rounds every week. I'd rather have say, an IPSC champion, or an Olympic gold medalist in shooting, over Bubba from Hobunk Arkansas that's never had to draw his firearm under stress. And no, I'm not advocating a bunch of people form a fire team outside movie theater doors and rush back in to stop the threat... but to say it would have been 'impossible' for someone to have fought back correctly is assuming something you have no proof on. -------------
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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 6:39pm
| A blanket statement that all ccw aren't qualified for given situations is too broad imo. I also cannot base my opinion of peace officers' abilities because local law enforcement was banned from my club for shooting a bunch of holes in the ceiling and tearing up walls and barriers. |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:04pm
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I have a decent sized response I'd like to post, but can't get it through, again. Anyone have the list of banned words? ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:13pm
| Copy/paste to note pad then eliminate one suspect word at a time. |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:34pm
At the time of issuance, its not in NY. ------------- ? |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 7:40pm
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What if someone from ny receives extensive out of state or private training? There's no way everyone in ny is laying down to that scenario. |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 8:04pm
No one here is arguing against CCH. I am unequivocally in support of CCH rights being expanded. We're simply talking about when and where CCH is most effective, and in my opinion, it is not duking it out with a gunman in the middle of Manhattan. Are there CCH holders who are an exception to this? Absolutely. I wouldn't think that needed to be said. Obviousously, there a CCH holders who are combat veter ans, world class marksmen, or hell, maybe both. My entire point from the beginning of this thread was just that FE's argument of "see, the police accid.entally hurt someone. Everyone should be allowed to carry because it couldn't be worse," was a flawed argument in support of a cause I like. That was rather arduous on the iPad.wow, Tippmann... The word veter ans? Really? ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 9:05pm
I think you missed my point, sir. Every time there's a shooting the first thing you hear from gun advocates is "OMG IF THEY'D HAVE HAD A CCW THEY'D BE ALIVE" but I think that there are far too many variables to make that statement. Look at it in medical terms. Someone dies from a heart attack and a family member says "if they'd only eaten healthy they'd still be alive." While that may very well be true, eating healthy is simply one of thousands of factors that play into heart health. So simply having a gun doesn't really mean alot. Soldiers that carry guns, grenades, and knives are killed every day. Hell, I'll take it a step further and say that even being a good shot is meaningless if you can't put those skills to use under pressure. I'd take bubba from Arkansas over an Olympic shooter any day if bubba had stared down the barrel of a loaded gun and walked away in one piece. For a more practical application, look up buck fever. Years of shooting does nothing to prepare for your first shot at a real deer-just like years of porn did nothing to help us our first time with a girl. So while yes, having a weapon is better than not, USING said weapon can do alot of good or just flat out get you killed. -------------
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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 9:56pm
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I was trying to find a statistic on the percentage of peace officers that actually have been in a gun battle which is something that may elevate their skill set above a civilian with extensive gun training and came across this.not sure what to think about the site. Not advocating just sharing http://actionamerica.org/guns/guns1.shtml |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 10:59pm
Private, in state training pre-license is a felony. There are no provisions in state law that allow for trigger time before license issuance- even for training purposes. out of state- I'm not sure. I guess the state can't do much about it if you go out of state and get some kind of training. ------------- ? |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 11:23pm
| Thank God that criminals abide by the law in ny because if they didn't, law abiding citizens would actually have to know how to protect themselves. |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 8:06am
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There is a reason police officers train with paintball guns... Just sayin. ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 9:35am
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Yeah, because your mates tend to frown on you when you blast holes into them during force on force training. Just saying.... KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 9:44am
I don't know how they do it in Cinci, but around here, it's simunitions. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 11:28am
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I haven't asked my cousin in a while, but a few years ago he told me they were using paintball guns (course they were just like regular guns same number of shots and everything... so not "paintball" like we think, I don't know the official term for them). But, aiming at another human and pulling the trigger is something that paint ballers do every time they play. Put two people in a shooter situation, one guy who has poked holes in paper for all his experience, and another who has combined shooting paper targets, AND shooting live targets in paintball, and I would bet that the paintball player would be a much better shot at a live target, and if he played limited ammo with magazines, I bet he would have a MUCH better consciousness of how many shots he had left too. I have no evidence that proves any of this, it is just logical. Saying a police officer is better in this situation every time, is just silly. Some officers are bad, just like some CCW carriers are bad... Have you guys been watching "Stars earn stripes"?... I'd take Todd Palin ANY DAY OF THE WEEK over most police officers I have met in a shooter situation... Some people just have a natural aptitude toward shooting, and it doesn't matter if they have a badge or not, they are just good shots. And then you have those cops who opened fire and hit 9 innocent bystanders...
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 12:35pm
Not a chance in hell they conduct meaningful training with paintball guns, for a whole host of reasons. What you're probably thinking of is the Simunition FX cartridges. It's a low powered plastic round fired from service weapons, with a collapsing coloured soap filled tip that marks what it hits and stings like hell. But no self respecting training officer would use paintball- because it's not just taking aim and pulling the trigger, but all the other operations of the firearm that matter too. Paintball *may* be used as an enemy force guns to reduce the safety kit officers have to wear, but if the officers are doing anything with paintball guns in their hands, someone needs to be replaced. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 1:09pm
 I already said it man, why you gotta go getting all detailed. BTW, you know they sell that stuff to civies now right? Fun story. Buddy of mine who worked at FBI HQ for a few years was on a training exercise where they had to clear a cargo ship. He's last in a stack of 4 going through a bulkhead door and the guys in front didn't properly clear the room. Dude who is tucked up against the bulkhead which they miss has a SMG and lights Brady up from 5ft in the back. Took the medic 45 minutes to dig all the simunition rounds out of his back. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 1:10pm
I burned my TV years ago to stop the liberals from brainwashing my cats.
Hey, we all got our fantasies bud. -------------
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 1:11pm
<Shrug> That's why we teach the first two guys in to dig the corners. I betcha they learned a damned good lesson out of that one. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 1:36pm
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I'm no psychologist, buti can't see paintball doing much to train the mind to look past shooting at a human being with a gun, in the long run anyways. Itd be no more than the temporary effect video games have on the mind, I would guess. Fun fact about the training CHLs and lower get, though; the NRA suggests(especially for new shooters) that instructors use pie plates or circular targets, because even a silhouette can be too subconsciously intimidating. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 2:53pm
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Gun fighting and defensive shooting are two very different creatures. Many can probably do the latter to save their hides. Actively getting into the first is hard for most people. Cops and normal people often don't have the mean gene or are too hesitant to throw the switch to "kill". Being nice and avoiding conflict is too deeply ingrained. ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 3:23pm
| I personally feel that qualifications for ccw should be raised. when I was involved in training people for qualifying I saw some people do some really stupid things. If it's bad enough they are asked to leave and some that didn't have the skills and seemed like they will neverget it slipped through the cracks. It was enough for me to realize that teaching people that don't know what they're doing isn't for me. Too dangerous. The first priority at my club is trying to convince people not to obtain their ccw. And when the prosecuting attorney rep speaks during week two they really do a fantastic job of trying to discourage people from obtaining. |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 3:55pm
During week 2? I thought our one day, 8 hours + range time was a drawn out bore. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 4:55pm
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Nothing against the NYPD, but there is a strong feeling out there that the department really doesn't know how to train/arm people. A new recruit has the option of a 9mm Glock (17? I really dont know Glocks), a S&W 5906 variant, and I believe a Sig P226 all with absurdly heavy triggers and minimum training. AD's were so bad that NYPD logic was "Increase the trigger pull!" to something like 13lbs. -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 5:00pm
| Negligent discharge* |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 5:02pm
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 5:51pm
Because when the NYPD switched from revolvers, with a long and heavy DAO trigger, to pistols such as the Glock with short light trigger pulls, too many of the older cops still staged their triggers having had the long pull of the revolver ingrained in to them.
It's quite feasible actually, considering the vast majority of cops never fire their guns outside of the target range, let alone anything remotely considered stressful.
And every time a shooting takes place, an anti-gun activist states if CCWs had their guns, more people would have been shot in the crossfire, even though there is not only no evidence to back that up, but as you stated, too many variables to even attempt to make that statement. -------------
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 5:59pm
How many USPA experts that are able to shoot under duress versus in a controlled match environment are out there CCW'ing? Is THAT a larger number than there are police officers who are mentally and physically prepared and trained for such a situation? Because if so, I'd be pretty surprised. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 6:03pm
They don't. And the fact the mayor is a raving anti gun lunatic doesn't help. Cops generally aren't gunfighters. Cops carry guns because every so often they have to use them. They are more likely to use pens, paper, radios, possibly handcuffs and flashlights. Very very small percentages of any cop's duties, besides maybe SWAT, actually involve firearms and their use. Cops SHOULD get trained to be hard charging door kicking face shooters, so if they ever need to do it, they do it well. Standards used to be shot at 25 yards. The average standards range these days is closer to 7 yards. Because people aren't trained to shoot properly, so to increase pass rate you make the targets easier. A handgun is easily accurate out to 75 yards, without much effort. It does require more skill the further out you go from that, but pretty much anyone who carries a gun should be able to make consistent body shots at 50m. People still don't understand technical aspects of shooting, like sight offset. I've heard people say if you adjust your zero for an AR (which has a sight over bore height of 2.5" IIRC) to zero at 7 yards you don't have to worry about offset. And that's from instructors. The NYPD has something like 35000 officers. Training them can't be easy. Training them well is almost impossible. A 16lbs trigger (what the NYPD Glocks and Sig's have) make accurate shooting much much harder. It isn't impossible, but target pistols have light, crisp triggers for a reason. Preventing ND's isn't about making the act of shooting harder, it is about basic training. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 6:33pm
Problem Solved: One in each precinct break room and you're good! ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 6:51pm
| The gun disassembly phone app keeps your skills honed too |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 12:07am
This has nothing to do with anything relevant, but I've been watching The Wire through for the first time, and I'm almost through 3.5 seasons, and the only police who have fired a gun is one guy, three different times, twice by mistake.
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 12:17am
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I know quite a few cops and only know 1 who has fired his gun. These scenarios seem frequent because of news coverage, but when you figure how many cops are in each city and how many cities there are you realize only a small percentage will ever see action. That's why there are SWAT / rapid response teams out there who generally experience a more high stress training, but you simply can't prepare for every event that could happen.
It's why the "we should train cops for X scenario" doesn't really work because, for the most part, the skills police utilize are more human relations than attacking. In fact, just going by sheer statistics, cops would do better to simply train on avoiding being hit by cars on traffic stops that training in gunfighting.
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 12:28am
THIS. Trigger weight shouldn't matter, because you keep your damned finger out of the trigger guard until you have intent to fire. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 9:08am
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http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/customer-shoots-robber-dead/nRLjK/" rel="nofollow - http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/customer-shoots-robber-dead/nRLjK/
Would robberies increase or decrease if the story above became a common result of criminal action? ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 11:34am
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There would be more robberies . . . . . . because if this happened more often the gangs would use it as an initiation tactic with survivors getting to join the gang and the less competent getting weeded out. It would be like Darwinism for street gangs and we would end up with super-gangs that no one could control. -------------
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 11:49am
That's a loaded question because one would first have to agree with the assumption that consequence ties directly to crime rates. Which I would not agree to. You could violently torture all petty criminals and there would still be petty crime because the assumption is likely that they won't be caught / killed. -------------
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 3:08pm
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. Even the most violent of gang initiation rituals("jumping in," for example) don't tend to be so risky. Gangs thrive because the communities they are embedded in see them as an extended family, not because those trying to join are thrill seekers. While I don't think it would cut down on the number of gangs that make someone rob a person/store for membership, I don't think it would be connected to a rise in such activities either. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 3:30pm
This question isn't really valid because it's impossible for all similar situations to end in the same result. Really an "if the world were perfect" scenario. |
Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 3:52pm
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Criminals don't think of the consequences of their actions before committing them, so it would have no impact on robberies. That is why people still commit murders in states where the death penalty is still used and why the "3 strikes" laws such as California's don't work. -------------
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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 4:03pm
| I really am in favor of much more stringent requirements for obtaining a permit. Six months of training seems about right. That would be before receiving the permit. Too many people that are not capable or properly trained carrying. I've seen it. even with thorough training some just don't listen or aren't cut out for it. Dangerous |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 4:11pm
I doubt it's the reason there repeat offenders. A lot of these people aren't stupid. They're taking calculated risks. Their environment influences them to ignore that risk, especially when a situation becomes desperate. They know they could be shot or put away, but they don't care. There's a reason many run at the first sign of resistance. If they get hurt, they go to a hospital (or don't... then die), they get discovered and put away. Considering gangs: they amplify these tendencies. They condition their members to enjoy the idea of being a career criminal. To the worst cases, there's a strange sense of pride to be put in for life. The guys at the top of the highest gangs are serving 23 hour a day lockup and have enormous power. To them, the power they feel is worth the pain of their incarcerations. These guys are the brains that indirectly influence or force people to start a criminal lifestyle, which keeps the cycle going. Even those who didn't want gang life in the first place get forced to do its dirty work both in and out of prison. It's not easy to refuse to rob a place if the sick guys in the higher ranks know where your family is. -------------
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 5:06pm
I would gladly take situation based training as a requirement for CCW. Anything from basic marksmanship to simulated encounters (and the BEST, not most violent way), to handle things from muggings to shootings or even non-violent events could be covered. It could make the self defense training industry boom in the states that do this, so long as the classes aren't overpriced and have mandatory guidelines to follow regarding the appropriate action to each situation. Basically, it should be consistent among all training facilities, demand yearly maintenance of currency, be economically viable, and should involve force on force events that stress self preservation instead of spec ops style direct action. We have government mandated training guidelines and certificates for the public use of any moving machine of substantial weight (because mishandling can cause damage and death). Why not extend the same to firearms in public? The problem, of course will be political resistance. The far right will deem it unconstitutional, that there should be no standard for bearing arms in public. To an extent, I agree with this. Having a rifle on your back while walking home from a hunt or a range, even walking through a grocery store, should be no big deal. There are towns where open carry is normal and incidents are rare. Still, a standard, responsible behavior for those who carry is not something that the untrained person possesses (hence why I rarely have a gun with me in Juneau). The far left will complain that the state is sponsoring the training of future mass shooters. It's not the case, but when has the fringe of any group ever been completely sane and logical? There can be a way to make this happen, and I look to vehicles because that's what I know. Training can be performed by private organizations. To become an examiner, you need to pass an evaluation which proves you meet safety and proficiency standards, as well as the ability to evaluate others' abilities to perform the required way. I don't think teachers should have to be certified. Training can happen by anyone, because there's a comprehensive test. The NRA training is not near enough. A prospective CCW holder meets with an examiner and other applicants to perform a series of tests including weapon maintenance, target shooting, knowledge of CCW regs, and simulations of the real world using simunitions and the other applicants as gunmen/actors. Since the response can't be concretely graded, intent of action should be the primary guideline for success. One experience I really think should be required is the active shooter scenario in the training space large enough for a few dozen beginner CCW students with rooms, walls, doors, etc. At an unexpected point during simunitions training, an actor takes a real gun loaded with blanks (the sound is what matters here) and just starts shooting wildly. The first guy who he points at should be a plant and have squibs in his shirt. Whatever happens, it would result in a very useful observation every time about how people would react in the real world. Students will learn how they would react when it gets real, how others will react, and everyone will learn what happens when a bunch of untrained CCWs are responding to the same threat. If done correctly, it will likely validate why training is necessary and will probably help develop new training techniques. If done incorrectly ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s" rel="nofollow - like ABC did ), then it will be a waste. -------------
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 29 August 2012 at 8:14am
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http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/customer-shoots-robber-dead/nRLjK/" rel="nofollow - In other news ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 29 August 2012 at 8:25am
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Great points tolgak. The potential liberal position that extended firearms education will lead to future mass shooters can be paralleled to sex education in schools will lead to mass prostitution. Law breakers aren't going to wait for the law to change so they can begin breaking laws. |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 29 August 2012 at 11:57am
Note to USAF: Have humor detector checked for operational status. -------------
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Posted By: clownshooter
Date Posted: 29 August 2012 at 12:14pm
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Many states have training requirements for obtaing a CHP or CCW, whatever your state calls it. In this state one must take a class and learn about the statutes concerning use of deadly force and when DF is permissible. Attendees have to demonstrate proficiency with the weapon they choose. Without satisfactorily completing the class, one cannot obtain a CHP. The class is one of the requirements along with a fingerprint card, and complete background check. Of course the right to defend oneself or one's family is a common law right. Obviously the big controversy (courtesy of the Hoplophobes) is using a firearm, specifically a handgun for self defense. I have also heard the liberal argument that if one shoots someone trying to kill or rape you, the subject is being deprived of his/her right to due process. Go figure!
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 29 August 2012 at 12:18pm
Damn thing must be on the fritz. It seemed like a reasonable enough assumption that I could picture someone believing it. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 29 August 2012 at 8:25pm
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^^^ I'll take that as a compliment.
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 29 August 2012 at 8:54pm
| All this talk of permission slips.... So grateful. |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 29 August 2012 at 9:10pm
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I could get behind some sort of training requirement for CCW Permits, even if it meant lengthening the process. Here in NY, though, they're more interested in the MONEY rather than responsible ownership. $3 for the application pickup $50 for the 5 hour course $105 for the fingerprinting Wait.... Permit granted, then its $10 for every pistol you add to your permit. That's it. No training, no nothing. As long as you pass the background and mental health checks, you're able to pick up a pistol and carry it concealed in the upper counties of NY. You can walk through a Walmart with a pistol under your coat and never have EVER fired a round out of it or any other gun in your life. I'm all for gun ownership, as I've made clear before, but there's just something not right about that. In fact, there's something downright scary about it. ------------- ? |
Posted By: clownshooter
Date Posted: 29 August 2012 at 11:22pm
| Yeah Reb Cpl it's a crazy world out there. The south counties and LI you can't even get a CCW unless you are rich or famous. |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 30 August 2012 at 6:57am
Nor is an upstate permit any good down there. LI, NYC, and I think Westchester County... ------------- ? |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 30 August 2012 at 7:23am
Pistol Permit for ownership, Yes in Nassau and Suffolk Counties. CCW I will check my handbook about. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 30 August 2012 at 10:28am
Separate for CCW. They stressed this numerous times in the course I took a few months back. ------------- ? |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 30 August 2012 at 3:35pm
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You shouldn't have to pay for a permit or license to have a firearm. Period. You know, freedom... I'll leave this here, since we all know this will be a national story by tomorrow... Oh wait. http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/story/Armed-bystander-stops-stabbing-outside-school/6zTYMpy8pUOeyrbElEBOTQ.cspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/story/Armed-bystander-stops-stabbing-outside-school/6zTYMpy8pUOeyrbElEBOTQ.cspx
------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 30 August 2012 at 3:42pm
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If you don't want violent criminals to have guns, you have to have licenses. If you have licenses, you have to pay for the paperwork and manpower to issue them. That money is going to come from taxes, or fees. Either way, you are paying for it. -------------
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