Waiting on CWP to come in. Need advice.
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Topic: Waiting on CWP to come in. Need advice.
Posted By: Tolgak
Subject: Waiting on CWP to come in. Need advice.
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 2:33pm
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In 6 to 8 weeks, my concealed weapons permit will arrive. I'm moving to Memphis, so I felt it appropriate to have the option of carrying (TN has reciprocity with FL). I currently have an http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/taking_a_look_at_the_fnp9_pistol.htm" rel="nofollow - FNP-9 , which I love and am quite accurate with. It's a full frame 9mm that hasn't malfunctioned in over 1200 rounds, is easy as hell to operate, and that I would trust to take into battle. The problem is, it's very difficult to conceal (impossible with warm weather clothing) and accessories are scarce and pricey. I don't have the budget to get everything I want, so compromise must be made. I'm torn between getting a light, holster, and night sights for it, which would make it a superior home/vehicle defense gun. It seems like it's a valuable set of accessories to have, and I could hide it under a jacket or in a backpack when going out. I wont get a holster for it unless it's made for a light, and it sure as hell wont be something generic (I like proper retention). The other option is to spend that money and a little more to get a pocket sized revolver or semi auto. There's the benefit of having two firearms, and a small handgun can be carried with minimal effort. The downsides are that I wont have optimal home defense (break-ins are at a very high rate in Memphis), will have to keep my skills up with two separate types of guns. With your suggestions, it would be helpful if you point to specific products. I'm certain that I'll go with holsters from http://www.ravenconcealment.com/" rel="nofollow - Raven Concealment , everything else I'm open to suggestions for. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: BARREL BREAK
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 2:38pm
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" I'm moving to Memphis, so I felt it appropriate to have the option of carrying " Why? |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 2:46pm
Getting CWP because Memphis has one of the highest crime rates in the country. The airport is on the side of town where crime is more prevalent. I'm wearing a pilot uniform on my way to and from work, in a car which is only 5 years old, which makes me look more well off than other people in the area = better target. Moving to Memphis for work. -------------
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BARREL BREAK wrote:Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 3:05pm
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I would recommend as a concealed weapon a .380 PPK, small, won't fail, and accurate. I had one as my backup ankle piece. Or a Berreta U22 .22LR with unjacketed hollow points, 10rds still narrow, no bulge and good enough to put a good amount down range initially, with 5 or more still there after initial contact. You want small, you don't want a bulge, and either round a .380 or .22LR will get bad guys thinking. Remmember the object is to disengage, not end up in a someone dies firefight. More than likely you will be the one the cops 'catch' because the bad guys will have scooted by the time the patrol car gets there. A DA's love messin with the 'armed' citizen, far easier than bad guys with lawyers, and rights and stuff. Odds are when you start shooting back, bad guys will disengage first, no 'fun' when the 'target' shoots back. And you don't have to hit them, a few wizzing by the brain housing group will get them to rethink the whole process. ------------- 
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 5:08pm
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Wilderness belt, and Comp-tac Minotaur holster to start out. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 5:23pm
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The badguys can't be relied on to run. You may very well have to fight to the death, and that's pretty much what should be on the line when you employ lethal force. If you were shooting to "scare him away" you probably weren't justified in shooting him in the first place. That being said, get a light. If you have a decent light you won't need night sights. Night sights are of very limited use, and I've been using them for 16 years. Being able to identify your target is much more important than being able to see your sights in absolute darkness. If you have a light it won't be absolutely dark. I'd honestly say get a Surefire X300 Ultra and nothing else. If you are on a very tight budget then look for a SF X300. They don't have the performance of the brand new Ultra, but they are very capable lights and you may find some 2nd hand ones. Also, get the DG switch for one handed operations. That being said, a decent holster is almost worth it's weight in gold. The Comp Tac is a very very decent unit as well, but you can always either find someone who can work Kydex, or do it yourself and make your own custom holster for your exact weapon and light until you can save up for the name brand holster. You can find some good How To's on the 'net. Then you'll have 2/3 the things on your list. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 5:41pm
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In a home defense situation, you'd likely be in close enough that lining up sights becomes secondary to a faster point and shoot. A good flashlight with a weapon based mount would be ideal. ------------- 
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 5:50pm
| I still dont understand that mentality at all. I can't think of one single incident in my entire life that I wish I had a gun/ things would have gone better if someone was armed. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 5:57pm
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And you've experienced EVERY situation possible? KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 6:25pm
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What do you guys think of the TLR-1? It gets solid reviews for $100 less than the Surefire. There have been some times when I wished I was armed. You can never predict anyone's motivations. Considering I'm going to a relatively violent place, it pays to be prepared. I don't mean for this to be an argument about the necessity of carrying firearms. I've already decided that I'd be more comfortable having a weapon ready in as many situations as possible. I just want to do this in the best way possible. -------------
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 6:25pm
I think I've got 3 or 4 left. |
Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 6:43pm
| I don't think you need a gun. But if you do, just make sure it's a big one. |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 6:52pm
It would be nice to have if I ever did need it. It's likely the insurance on all of your homes covers theft, even though you may never have a break-in your whole life. This is just an other way of being prepared. -------------
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 7:02pm
I've never had a severe wreck, but I haven't yanked the airbags out of my car
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 7:08pm
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I know what you mean. I've been around guns since I was a wee lad and have nothing against them. As insurance I think their a bit extreme. You'll be fine. Spend the money you would have put towards a gun on beer or something.
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Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 7:21pm
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If you want something easily concealable, I'd recommend the Keltec .380 or Ruger LCP. I personally carry a Glock 27, but it is bigger than the previous two I mentioned. As far as the break-ins go, they will most likely happen in the day time when you are at work. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 7:41pm
I like the LC9 myself, not a .380 fan. If my life was on the line, I'd go for the Ruger over the Keltec. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 8:07pm
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For home defense a 12ga, #9 first, OO Buck second, Slug third, then 2 rds #3 or BB. My carry piece is a .22LR Berretta Model 21, and I have been in a firefight or two in my life. Human nature being what it is, and being ex law enforcement too, the untrained 'criminal' gunman will 'run', for the longer the engagement the less time to get out of there before the cops show. Police studies show that in a return fire engagement the 'criminal' tries to break contact and run within 10sec of first rounds going his direction. Once as a UC got into a staring contest with a kid with a .25, put two .22's winging by his head and all I saw were assho..s and elbows, no I did not try and kill him, been a bad thing under the circumstances I was in. I am getting the U22 first chance I get. A .22 in a mid/close range engagement is going to be easier to handle and far more accurate than even a 9mm, why I use one. Also a .22LR does not have the penitration for a through and through, so you do not have a loose round flying around that may hit an innocent in the AO. Bad things happen when they do. Like said in "Unforgiven" if you take your time and aim you will do far better, and live longer, than some 'gangsta' with his sideways grip firing all over the place. True enough BTDT. Remmember this ain't hollywood....if you are there and in it for real, simple is best, its not the name of the gun, nor the caliber, it is the individual firing it that wins the contest. -------------
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 8:40pm
| My light is a Streamlite TAC-II, and isn't weapon-mounted. I'm quite impressed with it so far as a general purpose light with tactical potential. Carry gun is a .38 snubby, house gun is a shotgun. I shoot the .38 more than anything else these days and have become fairly good with it, I wasn't always. I shoot in low-light, with and without the streamlight. It shoots everything well, as long as it's 158gr. It does shoot those light weight, polymer-tipped Hornady home defense loads well enough, and expansion tests on those are enough for me to consider them worth the price. No over-penetration, very large hole for a .38. If I were to buy a new carry gun, I'd consider a thin pistol as long as it was extremely reliable. Revolvers have a lot going for them in terms of reliability. If I were to need to use my carry gun, it holds 5 rounds. Those last three are likely going to be fired over my shoulder while I run away. In the house there's nowhere to run, I like having a half pound of lead on tap. |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 9:43pm
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I've probably posted this in every CHL thread, but for concealment you can't go wrong with-  And x2 on a shotgun for home defense. -------------
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 11:23pm
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Aren't you a decent sized guy Tolga? I borrowed a buddy's SuperTuck and with a decent sized shirt on, I felt like my FNP40 was really well concealed. If you have the frame for it,you conceal just about anything, as long as you don't wear girl jeans and extra medium shirts. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 11:39pm
I'm tall and look thin with a little bit of flab that I'm working on eroding. I don't wear anything skin-tight, but it is quite form-fitting with enough room to breathe and maintain flexibility. When Winter is in full-swing, I'll be able to keep the FNP under a jacket using an OWB holster without a problem. I do want the option of being able to conceal with a shirt and shorts, so pocket size will be ideal for all situations. -------------
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 2:02am
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Can the 12 guage idea for home defense. Get a 5.56mm carbine. Lighter, so more people in the family can use it, less punishing to shoot so you'll practice with it more, less user input to keep it running, more shots on tap if you need them, quicker to reload if you have to, bullets only go where you want them to - not thrown around randomly like shotgun pellets/wads. Shotguns need just as much aiming as any other weapon. Think about it logically. You're gonna need what the cops use. What is it that most SWAT teams are armed with? Because you'll be pretty much doing SWATS job before they can arrive. Mostly these days the shotgun has fallen out of favour to be replaced with 5.56mm's. The TLR-1 is a decent light. I personally do not like the switch setup on the TLR-1 and would prefer the DG switch on the X300. Although this can be solved with the Streamlight Contour Switch, so that is fairly moot. The nod goes to the SF X300 Ultra simply because of the output it has. 500 lumens vs 160. The base X300 puts out 200+ vs 160. IF you think saving the $100 is worth what is an inferior product then go for it. There isn't anything "wrong" with the TLR-1 and many many people have used them to good effect, it just isn't top dog on the street. I personally used a TLR-3 for my Glock, but it has since died. Will be replacing it with a different brand because the TLR-3 design is flawed, but it was a good piece of kit. Stop listening to OS right now. He is giving you some BAD advice. Not only that, he is contradicting himself.
You are responsible for every round you fire. If you shoot to "miss" you are saying you are happy to throw potentially lethal objects who knows where. There may be a time and a place where this is safe, but waiting for the right circumstances is almost akin to avoiding being attacked in the first place. Many places in the USA also consider any use of a firearm "lethal force". If you even just brandish the firearm many places will make the "lethal force" claim. Actually SHOOTING the gun will definitely get you in their sights. Now, as he said, you aren't trying to kill him? Then why are you using lethal force? You will NOT be justified in shooting at him. And now you put 2 in his braincase while trying to "send them wizzing by"? It's murder if you aren't justified in shooting him in the first place. Even if you do get a through and through, something not likely to happen with a decent defense load, it'll be less lethal than a .22 fired off into the wild blue yonder. A .22 will not be more accurate than a 9x19mm at close range. It may have easier to handle recoil and it may be easier to put the follow up shots on target, but this in indicative of lack of training. Besides if you need 15 .22LR's to do the job of two 9x19mm's...... OS is correct that aiming will beat spraying most of the time. Get the light, get a holster, get some training. From people who are respected in teaching this stuff. ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 8:44am
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Training dictated that during that shooting I had a 'backstop' ie a big tall brick building, behind the shooter. The old masonry of NYC will absorb the rounds. At the time during the UC work could not risk losing the main target over a street punk. Many untrained civilians 'panic' shoot rather than think out the scenario. Now if the 'kid' had a larger caliber, I would of center massed, a .22 soft lead hollow points are lethal at the range we were at. The expansion creates a massive shock cavity at 10-15m, that is what drops the bad guy. A 'holdup' scenario where the target already has a gun trained on him/her is not a pull out a big gun and hope the shooter is dumb enough to let you have all that time. My operative plan is the drop the wallet, and as I go to pick it up go for the ankle holster and the .22, again it is not hollywood, and the Murphy Law is out there. Also having been at bookings of 'defense' shooters the 'panic' shooter has a far more difficult time 'justifying' where all his rounds went. Yes in an urban enviornment thinking about it can give you an adequite 'backstop', BTDT. I disagree, a untrained, never exposed 'panic' shooter will do better with the low recoil of a .22 than a 9mm, proven on ranges all the time as we progress from .22 to get the feel of a handgun, to the larger calibers. Now throw in a potential 'shoot back' target rather than a faceless piece of papaer accuracy goes to .... Handguns are not accurate over 15m in a combat situation to start with, nature of the beast. Military as well as Law enforcement reviews of shootings bear this out. I was terrible in the gun house training with the M-9 (92FS), and we were in the 2-5m range. The problem with 5.56 as home defense and short range is the problem the military still expieriences the round is so small and fast at real short range the rounds pass through the target and the 'shock cavity' is minimal, something to do with physics. In Vietnam we had to put a few in targets close to be sure, and in Iran/Afghanistan the same complaint even with the heavier round. The SKS or Mini 30 in 7.62X39, better 'knock down' at short range. Kayback, have you ever been in a firefight at short range....there is really no correct solution, just what you are comfortable with. My primary of the time was a M1911 but that was overkill in NYC, the .22 was more mission capable for what I was doing, and it worked out well and still does as my carry piece. And I have yet had cause to pull it since I left law enforcement. Many people can shoot large calibers at paper, a pop up shoot back is a whole differant scenario. PS. Real hitters 'love' the .22 for close range work The Berreta 21 or the Ruger walk up close, two in the brain housing group, keep walking as target drops to ground. They are working a .22 hit in Omaha right now, big street crowd, local or heard the the shooter in all the street noise, a 9mm would have been a cannon shot and drawn attention. -------------
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 9:08am
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My daily carry is a p.32 Kel-Tec which holds 7 shots. First is a regular 32 round nose, next three are hollow points, and final 3 are some seriously nasty personal protection hollow points. It easily fits in your back pocket. I carry it on my "wallet" side in a pocket holster. I've pulled it out twice in situations, but never had to fire it other than at my shooting range... I always have a Ruger .22 Mark 1 & 2 pistol within reach at home. With hollow points, 11 shots on the Mark 2 and 10 on the Mark 1. I target shoot all the time with those guns, and they are amazingly accurate. I can hit within 4 inches at 150 feet with either of those guns. You can ask the groundhogs that were tearing up my yard, how well they shoot... Oh wait, no you can't as they are all dead now. I also have a S&W 9mm for home protection, loaded with 17 personal protection hollow points per magazine. And I have four magazines for it ready to go. I took my youngest out shooting this weekend for her first time firing a gun. (12) I started her out on a few of my rifles, and her first shot ever was 1 inch from dead center. Second shot, BULLSEYE! Using my bolt action .22 Marlin. She liked my lever action Marlin best, So I just added a scope on it for her. ------------- They tremble at my name... 
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 10:24am
If someone tried to give that advice at one of our CCH classes, I would seriously consider asking them to leave. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 10:54am
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Just stating how 'hitters' prefere the .22, and how effective it is close range, not advocating using it that way for 'self' defense. People 'amatuers' diss the .22LR but it is a great pick for the up to 15m issues. Just find it funny watching the CCH types with huge auto pistols strapped, and no clue on what the issues will be during a 'real' firefight. We have a interesting individual in our game group strapped with a .40S&W, why? and the nutjob does not have the safety strap hooked, dropped it as it fell out of his holster in a crowded game store, and there was one in the pipe to boot. His logic is if he had to pull it did not want the delay on unstrapping it. Idiot, and he took the class too. I define 'hitters' as the proffesional problem eliminator of the less than legal type, not joe bob on the street. -------------
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 11:05am
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OS- We're talking self-defense, not gangland hits. .22's are plenty lethal (eventually) and a hit to the CPU with a .22 will put almost anything down, but in a self-defense situation, you're supposed to be stopping the threat (center mass), not stopping it from getting up to sue you. It would seem like your proposed trade-off in shootability of the caliber is negated by the need for shooting at a smaller and more legally questionable target. I've shot porcupines with a .22 enough times that I needed to reload without notable effect, and I doubt they're tougher than a guy on PCP or whatever bath-salts are. As for the 5.56 as a house gun, that's going to have to depend on building material and bullet selection. Not that I have the experience of OS, but I was under the impression that M855 fragmented reliably ONLY at shorter range (<200M with 20" BBL, <150M with 14.5") and tended to pass-through at longer range. The bullet selection available to civilians would seem to negate this. Ballistic tips seem to turn woodchucks into furry bags of hamburger just fine at 25 yards. Having 30 rounds on tap instead of 7 or 8 in a shotgun sounds useful, and I'm aware of how much a pattern expands at indoor ranges (not much), but there's something comforting in knowing that if you only get off one round, it's going to be a big one. I don't see myself in any type of HD situation that doesn't involve hunkering in my room until the cops show.
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 11:07am
I see where you're coming from with your points, but I'm not out to assassinate anybody. That kind of kill requires exactly what I wouldn't try to do in a self-defense scenario... sneak up on a guy, put the barrel a half inch from his skull, fire a shot and walk away. With enough training, I could probably narrow down a 9 mm group to something useable. I get good groups with double taps on my FN. The only thing holding me back with training is the price of admission to shooting clubs. Some of these places have entry fees of over $600. It's better than a single lane, but I couldn't make up for the cost with the limited free time and wages I will have up there. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 12:16pm
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People just were questioning the lethality of the .22LR. I use, like I said a Berretta Model 21 .22LR as my CCW, getting a U22, because I know the issues and what I can expect in a true up to your armpits in alligators, pockets full of raw meat situation. A chest shot with a .22LR hollow point will kill, and will drop the motivation level of the bad guy suffieciently so you can disengage. The idea of the exercise is to disengage, not do a Wyatt Earp gunfight. Center mass with a .22 at 15m is not a hard feat to accomplish with minimal practice. Believe me the bad guy will prefer to disengage, and quickly once you no longer are an 'easy' target, nature of the beast. As for practice, a field with a tree and three paper plates, two large and a small desert plate on top in a snow man setup will get the targeting down of center mass. Place the stack on a paper sheet with the outline of a mansized target with the snowman in the middle where all the 'good' places to hit are. Do quick pulls and fire, displacing after each shot a foot or two left or right, standing still on the recieving end never leads to 'good things'. -------------
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 12:58pm
My two handguns are a carry sized .45 and a full size .40s&w. Now, I'm probably a little bit above average size(6'1, 205-210ish) but I have zero problems concealing the 40 on my person while wearing an XL shirt. And even better? With the 40, it means I'm carrying 15 rounds in the most comfortable platform I've experienced. If you can conceal it, you're trained with it, and you're comfortable with it, THAT'S what matters. Not the eventual lethality. I just can't think of a solid argument for anyone(other than maybe a VERY small individual) to carry.22 when you can find most other calibers in the same size platform. If you prefer the round, it's certainly your right, but I don't think it's a good suggestion to give others. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 1:59pm
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Why such a large framed gun and a large caliber. The odds are you will never pull, let alone fire it under the circumstances you fear. As a cop our most feared call was 'man with a gun', as we poked our noses around the bodega door to see a customer with the obvious bulge in the back of the belt, and a concerned store keeper looking at us, and momma on the phone in the back somewhere calling it in. Was it legit an off duty cop or CCW citizen, or a wanna be criminal just not interested in the bodega today. The "Rambo" gun owner is a cops worst fear, because of the potential of over reacting and lack of training and innocents in the AO. Some of the DD-5's Ive read in my career of citizen shootings would not pass a shooter review board of any PD, and the instances of innocents getting struck were not pretty as big bullets from an untrained or disiplined shooter did big damage. There is NO reason I can think of for anyone to carry a piece of artillery, when a BB gun will work. My suggestion as an ex cop as well as having been in real fire fights is for Joe Citizen NOT to carry, for the odds are you will over react and bad things will happen. Even trained seasoned cops do stupid things at times, lets just increase the odds of idiocy. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 2:48pm
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"My suggestion as an ex cop as well as having been in real fire fights is for Joe Citizen NOT to carry, for the odds are you will over react and bad things will happen. Even trained seasoned cops do stupid things at times, lets just increase the odds of idiocy." I don't agree with OS on much of what he says but I like this. ------------- Que pasa? 
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 3:00pm
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My CCL is being processed as I write this, and once its issued, I largely have no plans on carrying in public. That could change if I get some sort of training and exposure to usage, but you're right. Someone armed with only a pistol and a constitutional right and no education is probably apt to cause more problems than solve with a concealed weapon. I'm not saying I'll NEVER carry, but right off the bat? No way. Especially considering that I'm not legally allowed to have any sort of trigger time- including for training purposes once its issued. To each his own though. In light of this thread however, I was looking at some of the small frame rugers and am pretty impressed with them. ------------- ? |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 4:13pm
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I was never questioning the lethality of the .22. They can kill. They just are not the best round or weapon for CCW. I have been in various firefights in my life, in various different guises. The last shooting I was involved in involved a beach, a 60lbs Rotwiler and my daughter. 124 grains JHP at 1200fps beats 30 grains at 1000fps any day of the week when you need to stop 60lbs of muscle, teeth and naked aggression. Carrying a firearm isn't always about stopping a mugging. It is about being prepared to deal lethal force if the situation requires it. Shooting near or around the dog wasn't an option. And I honestly doubt it would have dissuaded it. Kudos to you for having a correct back stop when you shot to miss. Like I said though that is almost like hoping you would not be attacked in the first place. I did not have a clear backstop in my last shooting, it is not something you can count on having. There are many reasons to having a larger gun over a small one, the easiest one I can think of is simply having enough gun to grip. The .22's are all small and cramped. There is space on a larger gun to make them ergonomic and user friendly. The .22 is a rimmed cartridge. There is always going to be issues with loading those in a semi auto pistol. If the magazine isn't staggered properly the rounds simply won't feed past eachother, as well as various other issues. If your larger framed weapon has an issue it is easier to grip and manipulate. Doing a tap rack on a .22 isn't always easy. I agree with you 100% about the untrained. As you will see in my post I suggested getting training from reputable people. Getting to know how to run your pistol properly is a must. Getting exposure to the stress of "real" shootings is most important. Not very many people have the "mean geene". It is quite hard to make people switch from law abiding citizen to killer, but that is what you need to do if you want to carry a gun around with you, know you can make that switch. It is not easy, and I know of no training that will make it easier, however propper training will make you less of a liability if the S does hit the F. As for the lethality of the .22, REALLY? Massive temporary wound cavities? Who/what have you been reading that leads you to believe that? Look at the 5.56mm. It is also a nominal .22, at ~65 grains and running near tripple the speed of the .22's. Those barely do what you are talking about. Heavier and faster but still not the magic bullet you claim the .22 is. I've seen people take multiple hits from the M193 (our duty loads) and not stop being a threat instantly. A .22LR can kill, as can the common cold. I would not want to rely on it in an emergency. 15m with any pistol should be the minimum you can do. There is nothing magical about the .22 that makes this possible. A 9x19mm can do it. If you don't want harsh recoil messing with your follow up shot, shoot it our of a full sized M&P and run non +p ammunition. If it takes you more than a couple of seconds to draw, aim and fire multiple rounds into the center mass at 15m, you simply aren't training enough. As for the 5.56mm for home defense, yes, hunkering down and waiting for the cops is what you do, but you can't always do that. I have children in the house which I may need to fetch. Carry a 2 year old back to your room and use your 12 guage effectively. With the 5.56mm you can shoot 30 times before it becomes an issue. (20 if you use smaller mags to save weight). You may also get injured. Runnning a pump action with only one had isn't as easy as Sarah Connor makes it out to be. Like OS said, you'll likely never use it, but a decent holster and decent training means you can carry a pistol around without it being a hinderence, just in case. Your miliage may vary, but I think I do NEED to own a firearm and carry it with me. We do tend to have more violent criminals here, but I feel I would be failing in my duties as a parent if I was not willing to do EVERYTHING I could to protect my family. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 4:36pm
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OS, you were NYPD? Also, I wouldn't shoot a 5.56 indoors, because I dont want to kill my neighbors. ------------- 
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 4:36pm
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Wound balistics are hit and miss. The 5.56 be it the Vietnam era 55gr to the more modern 62 and 65gr have the same problem close range, too fast, and the issues arising from Vietnam to Afghanistan bear this out. The round passes through too fast for good cavitation. My round for CCW is the .22LR soft lead hollow point, no jacket. Reason being the expansion and lack of potential through and through. I shoot varmits here on the farm, with these rounds out of my 10/22 and a coyote at 30m litterally 'explodes' with a chest or belly shot. The round is deformed and 2-21/2 times diameter, and a massive 'jelly roll' around the bullet, the internal organs pulverised. I do go to some of the more seedy areas of NYC on my visits, and never worried about bad guys. I define a firefight as shoot back targets, big dogs don't count  Home defense I use a cut down, folding stock Mossberg Police Special Purpose 12ga, same size as my CAR-15 extended, and the physcological effect of joe badguy hearing that racking of the round is usually defense enough, as they will head to an exit asap. I have a Berreta M-9 readily available as well as my M1911, as well as momma and her PPK for home defense, or the zombie appocolypse whichever comes first. Along with my M1A (M-14), M1 Garand, 91/30, M1944, K98, Arisaka 99, LE MkIV, 45/70 Buffalo rifle, .54 Sharps, MH1873, and more. But personal preference and expierience still has my little Berretta M21 .22LR as my CCW. -------------
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 4:54pm
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Wound ballistic are hit or miss. With a .22 you are more likely to miss. I am really interested in your views of the 5.56mm. Like I said I've used the equivalent of an M193 round a couple of times. I have seen it work like the hammer of Thor, I have also seen it require multiple hits to drop a threat. Like you said, wound ballistics are hit or miss. One thing I have seent that is consistent though is the closer a target is, the more likely it is to act like Mjolnir. I'm sorry to see you pulling an FE on the discussion. I did interpret the term "firefight" to incluse the times I have shot at something that did or did not shoot back. By your definition you using your .22 against a .25ACP that was all elbows and poop chute's doesn't count either. Carrying a firearm isn't about only stopping muggers or shooting people. There are other threats around that need shooting. It is easier to fight off an attacking Rotweiler with a firearm than with bare hands. That is something to think about if you want to carry a firearm. Again with the magical psychological workings of a shotgun racking. I've honestly never had that happen, and I've been both sides of a shotgun. It has helped me locate my target and it has helped me diffuse a situation, so it may or may not work. You know what also works wonders? Hitting your target with 200+ lumens of white light and if it is a threat applying high velocity attitude changers. I shoot birds with .22. My brother needed them for research. I have used high velocity, low velocity, LRN, HP, Stingers and myrriad of firearms to do it. I have yet to see any of this exploding you talk about. I have shot birds as small as finches and as large as gineafowl. I've recovered plenty of bullets. (he has, he's the one cutting them up) and never has there been any evidence of super cavitation, super expanding heads or such. I'll hunt around at home and see if I can find some of the Stingers that we recovered, they and the Federal opened up the best, and they were probably about 50% larger than the original .22 head. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 6:00pm
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Studies conducted by the armed forces found that the original 55gr 5.56 did not have a good knockdown power at shorter ranges, taking multiple hits to ensure the target was down. A long time ago and far, far away I shot at the local VC or NVA and observed strikes (that puff of 'dust' as the round stikes clothing) and the target kept moving, and I suspect shot back a time or two. It was comman practice to put a few more rounds into any prone figure we could see. In 2006 the army also had to address that in the short ranges of the urban combat in both Iraq and later Afghanistan the issue 62gr 5.56 bullet still passed through the target too fast without the cavitation to take the target down with one round. Now jacketed or partial jacketed hollow point .22's maintain shape and do not expand as much as non jacketed soft lead hollow points. .22 Long Rifle RWS Subsonic 40 Grain Lead HP by Umarex is my prefered 'varmit' load. Soft lead, hollow point, subsonic so energy disapation is within the target as round does not pass through usually. Try em if you can get em. Umarex is real soft lead, softest I've ever seen. -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 7:12pm
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Another caliber war. Awesome. |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 7:18pm
Its the new snipers exist/don't exist debate. ------------- ? |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 7:36pm
*You just can't see them. ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 8:58pm
Yep. Tolgak, do any of your friends have a pistol or two you could try out? look for something that you like, feels comfortable, easy for you to handle but mostly your ability to hit what you are aiming for with that pistol. Glock is a well respected brand and has been said to be the most reliable, Smith and Wesson make some great pistols as well. I hear good things and have read good things about the XD series as well. What ever you decide to get, take some classes and practice often, two or three times a month with it. And remember it is a very last option, avoid a situation whenever possible. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 9:51pm
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Yep, immediately NYPD after the Army, then applied and accepted US Marshal Service, worked transportation of pre-trial and convicted inmates from Stewart Airport/FCI Otisville in New York, then after the 'burn out' drove a truck. Fun life. -------------
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Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 10:23pm
I just remember US Army, bouncer at a stripclub somewhere inbetween (weapon of choice was a spoon or something silly like that), and truck drivin'. As for the caliber debate, I'd be happy carrying anything .38/9mm/45ACP, although I would love to carry a 1903 Colt Hammerless in .380. I don't care much for .40 because if I want something 'big' I would shoot a .45. -------------
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 10:36pm
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Our highway patrol still carries .357's. One of the reasons was due to the massive stockpile they have built up with it. But, a portion that I found interesting was that during their testing, they liked the ballistics of the round when it encountered car glass/metals. Little things like that fascinate me, but I'm not interested in the math of velocities enough to delve further into the depths of it. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 10:49pm
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I'm a revolver aficionado, but I feel that a .38 LSWCHP +P does a good enough job. That being said, I'd be happy carrying a 6" Python or 586 with .357 on tap. What state? -------------
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 10:51pm
| Since we're already talking about calibers, I might add the the CCI Quick-Shok MPD pre-fragmented bullet does indeed dump coyotes and have fairly explosive impact, but I'm not sure the penetration is above minimum. 5.56mm frangible rounds would still be better in that regard IM(underinformed)O. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 11:22pm
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Yea was a part time bouncer out here in Nebraska, Strip club off I-80 in Waverly, I was the guy who escorted the girls to thier cars to go home without the drunks chasin them, did door and 'cleanup' now and then. My 'motivator' was a pair of 6in vice grips with jaws set to about 1in when clamped. Come up to Joe Badarse, clamp that vice grib in the groin or inner thigh, and assisted his tip toe to the door. Never started nor lost in a nose to nose, age and decietfullness. outweighs youth and enthusiasim everytime. NYC had the .357/9mm arguement when came time to replace the service .38 revolvers, we ended up with a combination of S&W and Glocks 9mm's, understand they are going to .40S&W. Marshall servise issued me a S&W 659 9mm POS. Got permission to carry M1911 as primary, with light loads. -------------
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 11:28pm
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It has devolved into a gear thread because the tactics part was unsustainable. Advocating shooting to miss and disregarding accounts of other threats didn't leave us with much. And it isn't just calibre it is gear as we'll. I dislike the ergonomics of almost all .22 and think there is many a better choice to be made. If the .22 was such a good round wouldn't more police use it? How come the guys who choose what gear to get don't buy them? There is a niche for them, but a more capable gun can fill it just as we'll if not better. I have never used Umarex ammo. I found Remington sub sonic 40 grain hollow point to be amongst the worst ammo to use. It performed so badly I still have some left. I stand by my statement that OS is giving really bad advice. Both in terms of tactics and gear selection. ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 11:44pm
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It is still a matter of preference as a back up piece and CCW. Situations and need in NYC drove me to the .22, a controlable backup and convienient to hide and retrieve. For some (me) it worked and I was confident enough to stay with the .22LR for reasons I have given. In your situation, differant demand, and personal preference. As a police or military primary service weapon, of course .22 not suitable,(USAF does issue an aircrew survival rifle in .22 still) but as a back up ankle gun the smaller framed .22's are perfect. I do shoot center mass if and when situation demands, again that UC diliberate miss incident was a need to preserve the operation against the main target, not lose the UC status in a shooting review of a street punk. I have shot 'bad guys', and have been shot, not fun either way, still here, so I must of been doing something right all these years. For what I do that Umarex stuff does great in the 10/22, and the Model 21. Does have feed issues in other .22 so I have heard. -------------
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Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 11:54pm
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I'm all for bigger is better when it comes to caliber, but there are so many variables when it comes to shooting situations I won't say that it is set in stone that one is particularly better than the other. I've seen a guy survive four .38 +P hollow points to the chest from point blank range and live, and four hours later in the day a guy takes a single .22 to the chest and died within seconds. But then again I've seen a man get shot with a .22 (entry wound was touching his left nipple) from approximately six inches away, and the guy slipped out of the hospital over night because he had warrants. Look at different guns and find what you are comfortable with. I wouldn't recommend going smaller than a .380, but if the .22 sucked so bad it wouldn't be in production for 125 years. PS I would recommend 12 gauge over a .223/556 for home protection unless you lived in a brick house with no one else living with you. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 12:09am
Glad to see it looks as silly to the gun nut as it does to the person who doesn't care at all about guns.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 8:38am
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Just an entertaining debate about a tool, nothing more. What tool is best for what you want to do. A 6oz paneling hammer, or a 12oz carpenters hammer, depends on project and preference, accuracy or power. Guns are no differant, a tool. During the upcomming zombie apocplypse I will be using my 7.72X51 NATO M1A (M-14) rather than my 5.56 CAR-15. Bigger bullets, bigger hole at larger distances. Same with the handgun for that purpose, my old and trusted .45ACP M1911A1. And Momma is getting pretty good with the M1 Garand, as long as she has it braced on something.  -------------
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 8:53am
No question. Like anything else, there's merits to each side, the other just refuses to recognize it. Wait.....that's a common theme lately isn't it? ------------- ? |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 9:21am
I think my one big beef with .22 for CCH comes down to the actual kinetic force delivered to the attacker. What percentage of attackers/muggers/etc are under the influence of alcohol, crack, PCP, etc? There's a solid chance you need to be able to knock/slow them down and to utilize that time to escape. It's not about lethality, because if you ever mentioned that while explaining yourself to officers/judges, you'd be in a whole different mess.
North Carolina ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 9:36am
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Usually a criminal shooter on a drug is not going to act in a way where his accuracy is enhanced, more than not he will not be able to focus effectivelty. Again the object of the exercise in mose cases is disengagement. It is what you are comfortable in your own mind with, and the situations you feel you will face. Most amatuers will exagerate the threat and potentials, where a more seasoned cop understands the situation he/she may face on the street. According to statistics most armed 'street' situations is the quick 'hold up' show a gun or shape of gun in pocket, scare the victim to comply, and leave sceen as fast as possible. The armed criminal is more into scaring than shooting, again the criminal also thinks about repercussions if and when caught. A nickle to dime for armed robbery, or 25 to life for a shooting. Since we do not have an armed opposition like South Africa roaming around (except along Texas/Arizona Mexican border) the chance of an armed situation is slim, better chance getting struck by lightning. I read on some blog that the US farmers along Mexican Border are going more to Scoped .30cal bolters for long range accuracy over close range needs. The Mini 30 is almost a standard for dual purpose. And of course the .45LC revolvers seem to be the norm. Again it is preferance and need, urban short range over desert long range engagements. -------------
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 11:27am
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FE- What's the reasoning on the mixed loading for the .32 ACP? |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 12:11pm
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First round would be a "pass through" round, least damage to the person shot, depending on shot placement of course... I carry one in the chamber so that is my "warning" shot. If I pull my gun out, it is to use it, not to "aim to miss" but, if I'm being attacked, I figure one shot that lets them change their mind before the next three hollow points start flying. Hollow points do so much more damage than a regular round tip bullet. And the last three are serious hollow points... I've shot some melons with them and they expand like crazy. If I get down to the last three, I am in serious trouble, and I want the most stopping power possible if I was ever faced with that situation. Plus a round tip would do better if I had to shoot through something on the first shot... aka window, door, ect. I don't expect to ever have to use it, but I want to improve my odds of surviving if I ever did have to. ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 1:06pm
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"pass through round"?
------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 6:04pm
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I have never found a semi 22lr, that was reliable to trust my life with. Warning shots? Ugh |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 6:18pm
Since FE hasn't got back on this yet, I will explain. Bold is added for my emphasis on where I believe the questions following the original post came from.
Round that "passes through" the target without doing the same amount of damage a hollow point would.
You misunderstand; FEs "warning shots" are rounds on target that should cause less damage than the rounds that will follow if the target persists in continuing the behavior that resulted in the target being shot at with the first round. ------------- 
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Posted By: scotchyscotch
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 6:46pm
| Yeah if you are going to shoot, you better mean it. FE seems to have a good system there. If the first shot doesn't take him down and he keeps at it then the hollow points will turn him into perp soup. |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 10:19pm
exactly ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 2:01am
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I can see the merit in FE's setup. I don't agree with it, but I can see the point. In many places in the US, what you say is irrelevant. There are some things you could possibly say to make things worse for yourself, but if you draw a firearm and shoot it, if you hit him or not, if you kill him outright or not, you will have used lethal force and the situation had better warrant it otherwise you are the one in trouble. Shooting to miss, warning shots and the like are all things that should have been accomplished with other methods. Verbal instructions and the like. By the time gunplay has entered into things, you are using lethal force, even if you don't kill the person you are shooting at. I've agreed with OS on some of the things he has said, like the reactions of the untrained. The answer to this is to get more training. I've agreed the .22 has a place, for the extremely frail, or as a deep carry/backup gun. It shouldn't be the first line of defense. The needs of a 70's Under Cover Vice cop is also very different to the needs of a civilian defending themselves with a firearm. While he may have needed to keep his cover by not dropping the badguy, you don't have that luxury. His "think the situation through" is golden advice. You should not be knee jerk reaction shooting to something. You must make a conscious decision when to draw and where to put the rounds. If you are involved in a self defense shooting you'd better be the meanest mother poker around. Or at least appear so at the time. You do not get to decide when an engagement ends. That is up to the attacker. All you can do is try dissuade or stop him. You can only stop him by removing his ability to fight, either through destroying his CNS or through lack of blood to the brain. Pistols are not powerful enough to destroy major bones but maybe a disabling shot to his major bone structure. He can decide to break off the engagement if you respond in a non typical victim way. But remember, it works both ways. The response to a threat is fight OR flight. The attacker MAY decide to run away, or he may decide to stay and duke it out. If you've now fired 1/4 of your magazine in "warning shots whizzing by his brain" you are seriously getting behind the power curve. And I reiterate, I've used my self defense gun against attacking animals. That isn't something to take lightly. As for FE's mixed load, I get the FMJ in the spout. There is good cause for that. I might not agree with his definition of a warning shot, I don't see why it should not be a JHP. Bonded core JHP's have good barrier defeating properties, and there is more chance it'll work against the target to help him decide to bug out. Because he carries a .32 the FMJ is actually one of the better performing rounds. The .32 lack sufficient penetration to guarantee getting to the important bits. You might not be shooting your attacker cleanly in the chest. It may need to penetrate through clothing, arms or even just more of his chest if he is slightly sideways. A .32 FMJ does give you this depth and is a good choice for smaller calibers. Question though, the next are various JHP's. What makes the last couple extra powerful? Why not run those in the entire magazine I? I never understand the argument of making the lower bullets in the mag more effective. If you forsee that problem make the upper rounds more effective to remove that problem? Having carried various firearms over the years I can honestly say the size of the weapon has very little to do with the conceal-ability of it. The quality of the holster and a modicum of sense when it comes to selecting the outfit goes a long way. The only concession I have made to my wardrobe is all my pants have belt loops. Even my shorts. You can get many different styles of shorts with belt loops to wear a belt capable of carrying a gun and in shorts and T shirts I look no different to many of the other people around. A good quality holster will tuck the gun in close and tight to prevent printing, and a good quality belt, preferably one designed for a holster is almost as important to allow you to carry it without sagging. In the last 7 years of quality belts and holsters and carrying pretty much 19/24 hours, 365 days a year I have had 2 people notice I'm carrying a gun. One was a person who hugged me when I was unable to deflect them, the other was at a work event where I accidentally allowed my firearm to flash them. They were standing directly behind my chair as I lent over a table to reach for something. If they hadn't been standing exactly there they would not have noticed anything. There is nothing saying you can't carry a full sized firearm easily and comfortably. The FNP-9 is a good example of this. In a decent holster it will be unnoticeable to 99.9999% of the population. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 11:27am
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That is just it. "Pass through" sounds ridiculous. If you are to the point of having to pull that trigger, you shoot to kill. ------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 12:13pm
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Understand that the military per agreement and Geneva have to use FMJ's all the time. Even a pass through in the 'jelly bag' (belly) will do some serious damage to internal organs. There is an 'art' to shooting FMJ's and the aiming points. Back in the day It was for me just below center mass in the 'jelly bag', or brain housing group to insure first round or first three round drop with the 5.56 FMJ M-16. Wounds are not a simple MW3 fix, and are quite dibilitating depending on where you hit. A 795fps .45ACP FMJ hitting muscle in upper arm or leg will cause cavitation or shock cavity indused arterial bleeding and enough damage to drop target motivation. The 1100fps 9mm FMJ not so much. There are tactical applications for a 'pass through' to drop the target for 'capture', and to sometimes induce a physcological effect on the bad guys. Back in the day the physcological aiming point in long range marksmanship was 2in below the belt buckle, a 'pass through' usually but the target as well as those around him seriously 'rethink' the situation before them. With the state of our legal system today, you really need to think quick and review the situation and have an understanding of the legal issues involved in a civilian vs criminal shooting. Several states are not friendly to vigilanty justice no matter how well justified at the time. Again I am not a fan of civilian carry, and the 'class' is far from enough training for Joe Civilian to have enough 'comman sense' as well as training. M ost threats percieved are imaginary and blown way out of proportion in the mind, almost to paranoia. -------------
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 12:46pm
This, this, this. Unless you live in some kind of urban hell some of the scenarios I hear played out in these discussions border on Die Hard fan fiction. "But what if he pulls a second Uzi and dodges to the right while throwing ninja stars?? MOCK ME THEN NEWB." "Sometimes you find yourself surrounded by an entire gang carrying shotguns and pit bulls trained specifically to rape middle class businessmen. You'd be stupid NOT to stuff a .338 Lupua in your overcoat." "Screw it, this is why I carry an RPG." -------------
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 12:52pm
Fate worse than death to many. It's downright cruel, but certainly what I'd be doing if it would keep my outfit alive.
It depends on the attitude of the carrier. I had some friends who have fantasies of chasing down mass shooters and being heroes. Some are a product of the "sheepdog" mentality which I am not comfortable with carriers having. Ideally, it's a last resort thing. I wouldn't execute vigilante justice by chasing down a criminal. A guy coming up on me with a gun is already assumed to be threatening my life, and I should be able to stop that threat. In a mass shooting scenario, carriers should help others escape, and escape with them. In the end, it's about having the option to do something in case you get royally screwed. Yes, the chances are low, yet every day there are multiple victims of gun crime. I don't pretend that low probability = impossible. -------------
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 1:26pm
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.22 rifle ONE shot. http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20120903/NEWS010703/309030021/Verona-man-92-shoots-robber-home?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE" rel="nofollow - http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20120903/NEWS010703/309030021/Verona-man-92-shoots-robber-home?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE
I think it is amusing when people advocate massive caliber guns for ccw. Personally, I wouldn't want to get shot by a .22 short... much less anything larger. ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 1:39pm
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Shotgun, multiple blasts, KID survives. http://gr.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/10w020/kid_survives_shotgun_wound_to_chest/%20" rel="nofollow - http://gr.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/10w020/kid_survives_shotgun_wound_to_chest/ Wait, you mean we're not just linking stories of amazing stories that went against the odds? ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 2:39pm
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Gonna pull an FE for a moment. 90 year old man returns fire during home invasion, now has to defend himself in court. /America http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/suspect-in-california-burglary-sues-homeowner-who-shot-him-after-break-in-and-attack/2012/10/24/df527744-1e01-11e2-8817-41b9a7aaabc7_story.html?wprss=rss_social-nation-headlines&Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 3:44pm
That's just insane. I remember a law professor covering self-defense. He basically said, you're better off killing the guy, because there's a decent chance you will lose when your attacker sues you for injuring him while protecting yourself. -------------
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 4:36pm
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There are plenty of people who have survived multiple hits from "real" calibers, and there are plenty of people who have died from hits that shouldn't be immediately fatal. Like OS said terminal ballistics are hit or miss. I honestly think it all boils down to whatever you are comfortable with. If you want to bet your life on a small, hard to grip, hard to manipulate weapon with bullets of questionable effectiveness, then go for it. I prefer something that has a better user interface. FE, what are your extra powerful JHP's? Why don't you run them exclusively? KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 8:23pm
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I can't find them anymore... And I shot the others I had, as I figured I could just buy more. I always like to shoot my hollow points just to make sure they feed correctly. But, then it was impossible to find more like that. I did get some more hollow points, but they don't expand like the originals I had. I also realized my Kel-tec holds 8 rounds not 7. They don't sell the .32 anymore and the new .38 holds 7. ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 8:52pm
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If you're not packing something from Magnum Research, you're asking for trouble.
------------- ? |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 10:40pm
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I only CCH a gold Desert Eagle .50, and I wear it at 6 o'clock under an extra medium shirt. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 11:16pm
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If I ever felt a true need, I would go familiar, M1911A1,.45ACP, nough said. BTW the U22 is a sweet shooter, mid size frame, good handling, accurate and easy to hold on target. Hit well at 15-25m, hit the pie plate on my rifle range at 50m consistant. -------------
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 11:48pm
If you're forgive me being a pedant, I think it can only be fairly said that terminal ballistics concerns itself with 'hit' ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 12:02am
Specs? I'm a big Series '70 fan myself. My dad has one that was heavily upgraded by my grandfather, easily my favorite firearm of all time. -------------
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 12:21am
I just sold my series 70 satin stainless off a few years ago. I liked it, but my Springfield is so much smoother. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 12:44am
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WW2 Issue Colt, Parkerized. Standard military of the era, no bobbles and whistles, just a new issue barrel. Also have an new bought this year Auto-Ordinance WW2 replica, parkerized, and as issued. I believe in the KISS principle. I also have a Berretta M-9, not as much fun. -------------
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 1:15am
Once you are working on the terminal part, how they interact with the given target is not always reliable. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 1:29am
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I believe in KISS as well. But that does not force you to use 100 year old technology. Nor does KISS force you to use bad equipment if there is an actual increase in performance with other gear. My KISS 1911 has better sights, better grips, better magazines, better lights and IMHO better ergonomics than a WW2 replica gun. Why? Because gun fighting has developed in the last 100 years. What worked then may not be the best thing any more. It keeps fighting with the gun simple. You should not be fighting your gear. No one uses P-51 Mustangs, M4 Shermans or M1 Garands seriously any more so what makes the 70 year old technology in the 1911 magic? I love shooting an original 1911 for fun, but when you compare it to a decently set up modern version it is honestly like comparing an Austin 10 to a Noble M600. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 1:50am
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It's more that I am familiar with the gun, after 23+ yrs of totin and shooting one. I like the sights, easy and smooth pull with no corners or 'sharp' edges to catch on anything. We can look at it this way, the powers that be in 1964 said the M-14 was obsolete, a battle rifle, in a world of assault rifles. Now the US military can't get enough of them back into the mix. It don't have to be pretty and 'modern' to work, Mr. Murphy is out there, and I go with simple and works, more than pretty and a lot of bobbles and whistles to give Mr. Murphy more ways to intervene. You are comfy with modern, I am conforatable with what I have used, in combat situations, as well as just pokin holes in paper in competition. Last summers Nebraska State Games I shot my Auto-Ordinance in the service pistol matches and got a 25th out of 90, most who using more modern versions of the 1911. I don't have any problems with old, my 'deer' rifle is a H&R Model 91 (1891 design) "Buffalo Rifle" in .45/70 using a 405gr flat nose bullet and full 70gr black FFg powder load, not the commercial 55gr or less powder load (due to trapdoors). I don't chase deer, and can reach out and touch at over 400yrds with old tech (tangent sight) just as well as all the modern scoped 'wonder weapons'. -------------
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 7:03am
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That is good. I'm glad you are capable with your weapon of choice. I will hazard that stalking and shooting deer hasn't changed since the advent of the metallic cartridge. I do say gun fighting has changed. The way one will use a 1911 is no longer the same as it was when it was designed. Look at the 1911A1 revision of it. That was already showing a change in how things were done. The M-14 IS obsolete. It is a heavy, crappy, unergonomic weapon system that can't take optics easily. That isn't to say a nice 7.62x51mm isn't a good weapon to have. ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 9:19am
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Practice is the key with any firearm. When I was riding BMX, I could shred on the bikes I was used to. Funny thing is, I can still shred on those old bikes today. But, the "much better" modern bikes, are like riding a completely different bike. Sure they are all bmx bikes, but the changes that "improved" them only made them different to my muscle memory. So yeah, the new ones are way better, but I can ride the old ones like a pro, the new ones, not so much. As it goes back to what you are used to and how much practice you have on a given platform. I see guns the same way, so the ones OS is used to using for years work for him much better than the "improved" guns of today. It makes perfect sense to me, as all of these things are just tools and the tool you have used for years is more effective than the brand new tool that is "improved" and you haven't used as much. ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 10:00am
Wut. The military is still using the M-14 platform pretty successfully from what I've heard. The SEALs seem to be fond of them. I still lust after M1Aīs. The ARīs were okay in a tacticool kind of way, but they feel cheap and underpowered next to an M1A. Obviously in an urban SWAT situation you wouldn't take an M14 room clearing, but I've never been invited to one of those. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 11:17am
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I still shoot and love my M1A, memories. The debate still lingers about the M-14. I qualified in basic with the M-14, did not see a M-16 till I got to VN. Between the M-14, G3 and the SLR, were classics and the favored of the troops of the era. The switch to the 5.56mm M-16 Assault Rifle was met with opposition in VN because of its tendancy to jam, and the lack of knock down in the close range confines of the terrain. (central highlands at noon you could wave your hand in front of you under the triple canopy areas and not see your hand). During Desert Storm troops were asking for a 7.62 longer ranged better knockdown rifle because of the desert terrain where reach out and touch someone was more a need than close and spray. The M-14 platform came back into service based on the need of that longer trange, better knockdown need of the new missions. SEAL's Ranger's got the reserve stocks of M-14's, and now from the 'stock' out of the box M-14 to the modified platforms, the M-14 is back with a vengence. I toted a M-21 system for years, loved it, a dual purpose battle rifle, semi for standard field use, and semi for 'sniping' where the fast follow on shot without braking sightline was a real need. Contrary to popular belief the first round does not always hit, you correct off that and the second or even third hits at extended range, if you have a good spotter ...BTDTWhat on the optics, simple slide on, screw down sight mount makes it real easy to attach optics. Even stock rifles have the ability to slide on optics mounts over reciever. Heavy is good, controls recoil bounce, and has the ergonomics of a 'sporter' rifle that the average civilian in familiar with. Actually takes less time to familiarize troops with the 'zero' on a M-14 based on the sight line not being an inch and a half above balistic line. Bullet cross is also better and more optimal with the M-14 than the M-16 series, again the greater distance sights are over balistic line on the M16 series. Take a guess why the SR25's and other new vatrients of the M16/M4 platform are 'flat tops' with clamp on low profile sight systems. -------------
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 3:02pm
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I can also teach a new flyer to pilot a P-51 Mustang easier than I can an F-22. That isn't a very good argument for something. It just points to a low level of training. I said a 7.62x51mm would be nice to have in the stable. This is one reason why things like the SCAR-H were developed. The only reason the M-14 is being used is because the army has boatloads of them ready to go. It is an overly heavy weapon system. Good for controlling recoil you say? Heavier to carry around. Soldiers spend much more of their time humping a gun that they do firing it. No matter how high speed low drag you are. The weight simply means you can't carry something else that could be more important. You can do wonders controlling recoil with better designed ergonomics. The ergonomics of the M-14 flat out suck. Any and all of the slide on attachments do not offer optimal sighting platforms without interfering with the mechanics of the rifle. The G3 and SLR were better designs, not only because they started out at lower weights, but because they were more ergonomic. There are simple things the M-14 has that aren't up to modern standards. The charging handle, the safety, the angle of the comb and stock.. This isn't to say the M-14 can't be used as an effective weapon system. Just like saying a guy with no legs can't be an effective sprinter. It just isn't a magic weapon. It is dated, it is obsolete. It has been pushed into service again because it is all there is, and the military has lots of it. Next you'll be calling for horses to be used in cavalry charges and flags to replace radios. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 3:07pm
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Actually, the hell with this. Shoot to miss threats with extremely low powered rounds that are far from reliable, from hard to manipulate guns. Carry on dispensing such sage advice. Don't bother trying to better anything. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 3:21pm
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I call for the return of the MG42. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 3:29pm
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 3:53pm
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Again personal preference and expierience drives my preferences in weaponry. If I had a need for a 900m zombie killing (just as much chance of running into a zombie than a home invader out here) rifle my old but trusted M1903 may even fit the mission. Why has the M-16 family been in service so long with far better designs out there? Where you live there may be far differant 'threats', and may need to be addressed differantly. But here in the US the actual shooting of the bad guy is just the beginning of your problems the way our legal system is designed. The bad guy you shot (our thier survivinge family)might actually have far more 'rights' in court than you do, and the ability to sue you. Most of the population when confronted will hesitate in pulling the trigger if it is a 'paniced' first time, and if they do will more than likely miss or wound the bad guy, no matter what 'cannon' they are holding. We called it 'combat freeze' it happens from seasoned soldiers to grandma shooting the guy on her porch. It takes some serious moral insight to actually point a gun, pull the trigger and end a life, there is no 'reset' button in life. BTW if I were called back into a true combat situation and could choose my issue weapon, yes I would choose the M-14, may be heavier, but one round is more apt to drop the target than the three needed by a M-4, three 5.56 weigh in almost as much as one 7.62X51. Gearing up like the new 'Rambo' or pulling a .22, there is a moral issue you need to deal with in a shooting situation. I have had individuals in my cross hairs as he casually sits on his porch, reads his morning paper drinking coffee, wondering if the 'go' call comes could I shoot, knowing and watching him and his family each day he was targeted. Same when that 'kid' pulled that .25 on me, was it 'worth' ending that life, that is where the profesional trumps the wannbe. -------------
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Posted By: jmac3
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 4:18pm
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Howd this go from a smaller gun for personal self defense to practical military usage and aiming at people down the sights? Lols. ------------- Que pasa?
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 5:53pm
Its the usual evolution of such a subject around here. ------------- ? |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 6:51pm
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I wouldn't be so sure about the P-51 thing. Those turning tendencies are really intense. They do go-arounds at half power. An F-22, with it's fly-by wire controls and stability, is probably really easy to fly. The speed wont hurt his maneuvering skills, it'll beat his situational awareness. I bet they are both equally difficult to learn but for different reasons. OS has all sorts of combat experience. He's going to go with what he trusted most in those situations. Naturally, he's going to think his equipment was the best, because of his successes and possible life-saving moments. A SCAR-H is probably superior in every way, but since he never used one in combat, he'll very likely dismiss it as an unnecessary change to what he treasures. Because of that bias, OS will be more successful in any situation with an M-14 than a similarly configured SCAR-H. Not because the M-14 is superior, but because he will let his biases hold him back from learning the new weapon. He will wield the SCAR with the same considerations as he would an M-14, which is not the most effective way to use it. It's what happens when you are highly devoted to certain products. -------------
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Posted By: merc
Date Posted: 28 October 2012 at 2:56pm
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read the first 2 pages then skipped... first thing to consider is if your changing your address to TN then you will have to notify FL of your move and your FL resident permit might not cover you. might have to get an out of state or TN permit... second thing to consider is that you already have a 9mm pistol... it is a pain to stock multiple calibers... if you have an empty front pocket an LC9, keltec, or khar might be good choices. winters coming up. a shoulder holster with a hoody or button up shirt might work. i have no idea where OS would come up with some of the things he said... you would think of all people he would advocate having a round that could stop a threat by force reliably. i keep a streamlight clipped to the inside of my left front pocket... yes if you need it to shoot with you lose your standard 2 handed grip but you limit them by attaching them to your carry gun. ------------- saving the world, one warship at a time. |