Elementary School Shooting
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Category: News And Views
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Topic: Elementary School Shooting
Posted By: usafpilot07
Subject: Elementary School Shooting
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:24pm
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Makes all the little arguments we have on here seem trivial. God help the families of those victims. Last estimate I saw was 18 kids, 9 adults. Hope the killer spends the rest of eternity wallowing in the darkest pit of hellfire they can find. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20730717" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20730717 ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Replies:
Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:26pm
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To borrow my own rant from Reb's wall: It's a shame that this is going to devolve once again into a debate that we need fewer or more laws about guns instead of the very, very serious conversation that needs to occur concerning the state of mental healthcare in the U.S. |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:27pm
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You know, as soon as I read this, I wanted to get in here and talk about it. My social media feeds are already bound up with nonsense, and believe it or not, this is one place where much of the time that doesn't get in the way. The more I dwell on it though, with two kids of my own, one of which will be entering Kindergarten soon....the less I actually want to talk about it, and the more I want to get in my car and go the hell home right now. ------------- ? |
Posted By: procarbinefreak
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:38pm
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Reb, obviously not the same connection, but my mother is a 1st grade teacher, and quite a few of my family members are also elementary school teachers. This is insane and cannot comprehend how someone could do this. |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:46pm
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I already got myself into the mess, but I kinda did walk into it on FB. I think it is petty and stupid to argue about it, even though I feel my opinion isn't unfair. Thanks for backing me up tallen. I will say, three shootings this year, two this week, what is the world coming to? Ban guns all day, but there are still people out there wanting to do these things and will continue to do so regardless of how available firearms are or are not. ------------- 
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 2:03pm
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Whale's been saying it- and he's correct. Every time one of these things happens, the 'gun' and 'criminal' debates detract from the conversation we SHOULD be having- the one on mental health. Recognizing, preventing, and treating it. Then, as soon as the dust settles and we go back to our lives in a week or two, its all forgotten about again until the next time it happens. There's no rhyme or reason to it. We're fast to yell about what someone did, and how they did it- but practically ignore the 'why.' ------------- ? |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 2:08pm
| Much too close to home for comfort. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 2:17pm
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We as a society and culture have created this monster, as stated the lack of a defined mental health identifacation and treatment program that does not violate someone's 'rights' needs to be addressed. The 'rights' of the 'undiagnosed' mental health issue individual are paramount and only questioned after something like this happens. The individual with mental health issues is protected by the system even if known there are known issues, unless the individual or courts actually are 'forced' to address the issue usually 'after the fact' of some behavior like we see here. And then it is the 'job' of the criminal defense attorney to prove it was not the individuals fault, but the society and culture that 'drove' him to this behavior. Again we created this monster, and now have no real answer to it. ------------- 
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 2:29pm
Essentially what I've been getting at for most of the afternoon. I've said it, Whale will say it, I think more and more people agree that it's a mental health issue and not a gun issue or a criminal issue. The fact that you can be admitted to a psychiatric institution and so long as you are released within a month, it never hits any kind of record, is a travesty concerning public safety. The naysayers will tell you that it would prevent people from seeking help, but I highly doubt this is the actual case. It takes the act of a judge to get someone admitted against their will these days. And while I understand that certain abuses were taken in the past, we are better equipped today to prevent the well from being thrown in with the sick. I cannot help but believe that if there were a federally funded mental health system in place like there was prior to the 1980's, we wouldn't see this kind of thing nearly as often. That's not to say it didn't happen back then, but preventing people like these from getting firearms, or even being out and about on the streets unsupervised, would be much, much easier. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
oldsoldier wrote:Posted By: agentwhale007
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 2:53pm
| Note, this is not a condemnation of firearm status, but of mental health, but the phrase I've seen kicked around that I think is rather fitting to the moment is: When it becomes cheaper and easier to buy a firearm than to receive a psychiatric evaluation or see a therapist, this is going to happen occasionally. |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 3:01pm
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I think the unfortunate truth of the matter is that there is no way to predict or prevent most of these killings. As far as gun control, I think at this point AR 15's are probably on borrowed time. A new AWB is almost inevitable if this crap keeps happening. ------------- 
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 3:11pm
I had a CJ professor who always said the most dangerous time to be anywhere is in the week following a shooting because that is when there is the greatest risk for copy cat shootings. It's a shame he might be right. ------------- 
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 3:14pm
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There will always be a stigma when it comes to mental health. I had a patient who was deemed SMI and received a disability check due to his schizophrenia. He came to our facility often, and I was usually the one that did his intake. Even though I had built rapport with him, when it came to ask if he had any psych issues. He would more than likely flat out lie, or try to justify why he wasn't the way he is. I also ran into people who obviously had a mental impairment, but refused to speak with a psychiatrist, because they were "fine". And when people start throwing around removing rights, if someone decided to receive mental health treatment. It will only push people farther away. Especially veterans with PTSD. What usually will happen is these people will end up in our correctional facility's. Where they will receive zero mental treatment, and subsequently end up in a revolving door. When we have private prison corporations lobbying, things like this are bound to occur. And ironically the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest, did more harm to our mental health treatment in America, than good. All of the patients who were released, most likely ended up in prison or dead. |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 11:14pm
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Treatment sucks, the stigma sucks worse. A good friend of mine has been on a bad path for years, got into drugs badly, ruined serious relationships, tried to get clean and recently ended up in the psych ward. I'll support him, but you can't pretend that there's nothing wrong and it isn't big deal in order to keep things pleasant. His guns have been in my safe for a while now, and are staying there. You need to do something when there's a public risk, regardless of political beliefs. Taking Grandma's car keys when she starts to lose it is no picnic either, but you need to do it. |
Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 11:56pm
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Another issue in mental health is getting the patients to continue with the medication. It seems like an endless cycle of 1. the patient doing something severe enough to be taken to an institution or at least having MHMR (Texas authority on mental health, I don't know what other states call it) check the patient out. 2. The patient gets on medication and gain control in his/her life. 3. The patient gets well enough to leave the institution or quit being monitored by MHMR. 4. The the patient maintains self reliance for a while, but starts to miss doses of medication because they think they are in control and no longer need medication, or get sick and tired of the horrible side affects that come with the medication. 5. The next step is for the patient to slip back into step 1. There is a lot of room for improvement in the mental health field. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 12:29am
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I really feel for the families. There aren't words to express my sorrow. It is still only 3 out of 250 000 000 gun owners, and this lady guy was not legally allowed to own them anyway. It isn't about laws though because it is illegal to murder a classroom full of children I still stand by my comments in the last one. Investigate, find the cause, hope to prevent another, bury him in an unmarked grave, stop flooding the air waves with stuff about him. Concentrate on the families that have been destroyed. He is one person who had topped the hearts out of hundreds. Hee should not be getting the attention. This isn't about guns. It is about people. And they do need looking at. And some do need locking up if they pose a danger to others. This isn't Minority Report pre crime stuff either it is about finding the crazies and getting them help. ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 9:00am
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Such a heart wrenching event... The families affected will never be the same again. Evil has that effect, and we all live in a society that is now "not a Christian nation". And this is the consequence, as people who have a non-Godly moral compass will do things like this. John Adams said it best. "There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy." There are consequences for our godless "progress" and no laws or rules or banning of items will change the moral breakdown that results from our lack of God as our moral focus in our culture. THAT is the issue, and the cause of this type of horror. There was a sermon that discussed this issue in 1799 by Jebediah Morse. "To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them." ------------- They tremble at my name... 
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 10:28am
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And that is why these things will continue to happen. -------------
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 11:09am
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<inappropriate given the gravity of what happened> That is a ridiculous statement that cheapens the deaths of the people yesterday, this has nothing to do with the magic sky wizards of 2000 year old books that people pray to, it has to do with mental health and the serious lack of care for the mentally ill in this country. No amount of religion or praying will fix people like him, they need help before they fly off the handle.
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 11:32am
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......so as soon as everyone converts to and practices Christianity devoutly, mental illness will be cured? ------------- ? |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 11:40am
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Because somehow atheists, gays, and Muslims are to blame for this. Classy as always FE, I'm sure if his family had prayed over his brain, God would have fixed his crazy just like your broken arm. EDIT: OK, this^^ is fairly caustic but I don't know about vulgar, unless someone posted after me and deleted it. FE's comment just seem too much like that piece falsely attributed to Ben Stein that's been all over facebook lately, which pretty much blames an end of forced prayer in schools and the use of "Happy Holidays" for murders, hurricanes and 9/11. I guess WBC is gaining steam. Also, your version of a God, who would punish societies in such horrible ways, or refrain from interceding because the state is barred from actively trying to convert children, is a psychopath. Is a deity who demands everybody be made to bow down and kiss his glorious backside under threat of violence worthy of worship? |
Posted By: God
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 11:43am
Lets all remember to show some class and respect with how we speak on this board.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 12:00pm
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Where is the 'moral' compass of any society or culture. Is it a 'religion', a mass belief system, rule of law, what exactly determines the right and wrong of any society or culture. A few thousand years ago a group of men assembled some writings, and called thier 'book' the comandments of thier society and culture and the behaviors accepted and not. As well in many cases the punishment for those who did not obey that societies and cultures 'rules'. We have many today who totally discount those writings as the falicies of man, yet are more than willing to accept the writings of nine men and women in Washington DC to write and determine the bahavior standards of our society and culture. Are these also the falicies of man? We as a culture have lost the ability to see morally wrong actions as just that. The funeral possetion of Jovan Belcher that football player that murdered his girlfriend was a 'celebration' rather than the funeral of a murderer, and what of the young lady he killed, where was her life portrayed in the media, did she deserve to die that day, and what made Jovan Belcher's life that much greater and important to be celebrated than his victim, Kasandra M. Perkins life We as a society and culture have become desensitized to our fellow mans plight, and our legal system has made it clear you can not voice your concerns about your neighbors behavior without fear of legal repercussions. We see there were concerns about that young mans behavior and activities, yet what was done? What could be done under the constructs of law we have written to protect his 'rights' over the 'rights' of the society and culture. We are not debating the 'rights' of all, but hose identified as having mental health issues that could threaten those around them or themselves. The individual was identified as having mental health issues, intelligent but socially awkward, but there were several 'warning' signs according to the brother that should have been addressed. We will never know what went through this young mans mind. He possibly had a vengence issue with his mother, saw these children as getting more of his mothers attention than he did, and went out to kill his mother, and those his mother 'loved' more than he. Now we have the political agenda of gun control, it is not the inanimate object that kills it is the operator of that object. I saw on a blog, and I do NOT see this commment as a norm, but it is just as relevant as the knee jerk reaction of gun 'control'. The blogger stated why do we not have "retard control", again a knee jerk emotional response to the event, more than a rational thought, but in a sense why are the mentally ill not 'controled' within our society and culture than a peice of metal, there is a need to protect the society and culture from both, not just the one that is convienient? Anyone who kills has some form of mental illness, for our society and culture does not see that behavior as a 'norm' and a correct way to handle an issue, we even question or law enforcement when they 'kill' in the line of duty. Do I believe in Gun Control, to a point yes, do I believe that guns kill, NO...Man kills. And now for political reasons the gun control arguement will rise, the 'arguement' on the stricter control of mental health issues will not even be addressed as not to offend someone, somewhere, till the next time. <removed> -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 3:00pm
| The media keeps mentioning the shooter was autistic. What does that have to do with anything? |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 3:17pm
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 3:31pm
| So do we make everyone with autism a prohibited possessor? |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 3:47pm
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As I understand it, yes. If you have a mental disorder, you are prohibited from owning a firearm. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell" 
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:01pm
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It's worth looking into. Same with schizophrenia. Those people are unlikely to do anything like this, but it's a conversation starter. I'd be fine with allowing for a fast track to prohibiting someone from purchasing or possessing a firearm based on mental health concerns. Handling this with due process would be tricky, but healthcare professionals or concerned family members should be able to get at least a temporary hold placed on someone. This of course doesn't work without registration to determine if someone has already purchased firearms. If you can get someone admitted for an observation hold, you should be able to put them on a "no-guns" watch. Of course, the NRA tells you that registration will lead to confiscation. I'd also like to see high-capacity long guns classified like pistols with an age restriction of 21. As for an AWB, except for the magazine capacity issue, about the only thing in that whole list of banned features that made and sense at all was a restriction on folding or collapsible stocks. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:01pm
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Welp you just made half of this country prohibited possessors. At least. ADD? Sorry. PTSD? Thanks for serving, now gives us the rifle platform we trained you on. Get some depression medication after a family died, because it's easier to give a pill than offer proper counseling. Hand over the gun your mother left you in the will. Edit: In response too Det |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:20pm
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Det, that's not it and shouldn't be, it's simply too restrictive and would only discourage people from seeking help, although I am concerned that that is the fear too many gun owners have. In order to prohibit someone from owning a firearm, you need to get them declared incompetent, or have them forcibly committed or sent to rehab etc. It's too difficult and takes to long. Just getting the car keys from my grandmother was an unpleasant experience that simply took much too long, but getting her prohibited from driving after developing dementia was a lot easier than it would be to get someone prohibited from buying or possessing a firearm. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:32pm
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I was speaking to a shrink that was teaching a brief course during work training. It use to be very easy to have someone committed. Not so much now a days. Not sure if it was people abusing the power, or HIPPA, or both. That caused that to be reversed. |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:42pm
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I figured that was a bit "blanket." I admit I need to reread the laws. I have been thinking a lot on the subject of the 2nd Amendment these days, but I cannot seem to type up a coherent post on the subject. I'll duck down and read what input folks have to offer. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 5:22pm
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The easiest way I can think of to get someone prohibited, at least in this state, would be getting a restraining order placed on that person. Something similar would be great for putting a hold on a firearms sale of longer than time currently allowed. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 8:00pm
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Problem is in the 'due process' requirements for that restraining order. Does the individual meet the 'requirements' of a danger to person or persons so mentioned in the 'restraining order' if at present there is no way to legally place mental health issues into the requirements. The 'secrecy' and protections legally allowed to those with mental illness prevent the legal system from using the information if obtainable. Patient/Doctor confidentuality law is quite plain on what can be obtained, how, and then admitted for an evauluation. Any 2 bit lawyer now can get any court order for the infromation quashed on appeal, and inadmisable, it is the 'monster' we created, where the criminal, or threat to the society has far more 'rights' and protections than the society itself. We can not turn into a police state, yet can not let issues like this go unadressed, and gun control does nothing to adresss criminal behavior or mental health issues. -------------
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Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 8:15pm
Just to draw on this, a Sociology professor I had gave us a true story of his autistic brother in class one day. More or less, the important point is this: - Professor, Autistic Brother, and Mother were in a room, with a toy ball. - With everyone present, the ball was placed into "Drawer 1" - Mother left the room, and the ball was moved from "Drawer 1" to "Drawer 2" - Mother came back in the room; Professor asked Autistic Brother where Mother would assume the ball to be. - Autistic Brother answered "Drawer 2", as he had no sense of his mother's being. A very plain example of a rather severe case of autism, but I figured it would be relevant for the purposes of potentially understanding how autism may play into an event like this. Less severe cases are often not this severe, but understanding of "others" is often a difficult point - ranging from mearly understandings other's feelings to as bad as the example above. Something like this is VERY relevant to the current event, though it seems that has already been established here. ------------- 
http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=172327 - Forum XBL Gamertag Collection |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 8:38pm
<Not helping> ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:27am
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I've been hearing people since yesterday cry out for more gun control and restrictions when the guns didn't even belong to the perpetrator. How would gun restrictions keep guns out of the hands of those who don't even own them? Obviously it is the gun owner's fault for not following proper gun storage procedure. Honestly, more training is needed on the gun owner's part. People still blame the guns and not the person pulling the trigger. It's almost as if some people have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to guns. |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 1:26am
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I agree on the mental health issue, but I can't reason where the line should be drawn. Our culture is to blame. A big problem is the stigma involved in being mental health patient. Americans have a way of ignoring or declaring taboo those subjects that make people uncomfortable. Instead of confronting our problems, we shun those who bring those problems to light. The person who realizes he has a problem doesn't want to get help, because he's afraid that the social stigma of the condition will affect his relationships and his job. He's afraid that seeking help will make him a lesser person. He's worried that few people care anyway, and for the most part, he's right. You can't change a culture to understand and accept mental patients overnight. This problem hits my industry hard. Pilots who talk about depression are grounded immediately. They lose the one thing that lets them escape from their problems for a while. Airlines do not like hiring people with records of mental health issues, however small. The result? You have some very stressed and depressed people flying airliners. Stigma and harsh reactions keep people from reaching out for help. The cost also contributes to this. http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gun-violence/welcome.htm" rel="nofollow - Gun violence in general is almost exclusively related to organized crime . We can't fix gun violence until we fix gangs. That, I have no idea how to solve, but it may start with reducing the circumstances that cause people to join gangs in the first place. ------------- 
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 4:14am
I'm always amazed people Call for more restrictions on things, seeming to forget that it is already illegal to murder a classroom full of children. Laws don't actually DO anything besides giving you something to punish a person with once they have already done something, they don't prevent or stop someone doing something. To stop then you need people willing and able to be there a these things happen. And that means good guys with guns. The bad guys are bringing guns to places where people don't have them and committing henious crimes and they carry on doing so UNTIL PEOPLE WITH GUNS ARRIVE TO STOP THEM or they choose to stop themselves. Cut out the middle men and have guys with guns there already. I don't know if the answer is armed teachers or a type of school marshal but obviously the whole cowering in the corner and hiding doesn't work too well. For those worried about the blood bath that armed bystanders will r reap, in this case they would have to have killed less than 28 other people and it would havebeen a success... ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 4:28am
| What kayback said |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 7:30am
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I know for sure that the answer is NOT arming teachers. For one, a large number of people going into education these days are people that argue for stricter gun control laws or the banning of such altogether. One of my good college friends is a teacher in Georgia, and her facebook page is littered with "Gun Free America" links, and calls to eradicate them from everywhere. Any state that would suggest arming teachers would lose quality educators by the score based on their political proclivities towards guns. That being said, I don't know what the answer IS...but that isn't it. To suggest this is about as ludicrous in my book as disarming the private citizen is. ------------- ? |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 11:06am
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As a teacher with an LTC, I wouldn't want to have a gun in a classroom. It's tough enough to get kids to trust you without giving them the impression that their teacher thinks there's a significant risk one of them is a homicidal maniac and is ready to kill any of them at a second's notice. While I think today's safety measures in schools have proved necessary, kids hate being treated like prisoners enough as it is. For the better part of a decade, students at my old high school have been required to wear their ID badges. Teenagers being what they are, forget them all the time or simply refuse to wear them, or even try to stage protests with passive resistance. I've had to explain more than once that in the event of an emergency, they don't want to be the knucklehead that police are wasting time trying to ID when they should be focused on saving people's lives, and that they keep an extra copy of their ID in their locker and try to organize themselves if it's so difficult to remember something like an ID. I'm still waiting for some idiot with a pitbull to tell me nobody should have a pistol. |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 3:39pm
Minus the pitbull, I've been told 2 or 3 times already that there's no reason for private citizens to own pistols. ------------- ? |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 3:54pm
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The knee jerk, just tell them as I do, OK we don't need pistols, try carrying a 'cop' other than that enjoy being 'the victim' since it takes you the cop how long to repond. -------------
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Posted By: FreeEnterprise
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 5:21pm
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Interesting how the mall shooter killed himself last week as soon as a conceal carry guy confronted him... And the media ignored that fact. As CCW stopping violence isn't convenient to the anti gun media. http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html ------------- They tremble at my name...
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 7:09pm
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page not found |
Posted By: procarbinefreak
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 8:22pm
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If it's the story I think it is, a ccw carrier got the people he was with behind cover and pulled his weapon while the shooter's gun jammed. He chose not to shoot because there were people behind the shooter. The kid then ran off to the staircase, kept trying to unjam his rifle and then offed himself. I feel like the kid was going to commit suicide whether or not there was a shopper with a weapon confront him, and it wasn't like he immediately saw the guy with the gun and turned the gun on himself...
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Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 8:30pm
Both versions of the story were posted on my news feed this morning, I thought it was interesting how the details of the story varied depending on who was reporting it. ------------- ? |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 1:50am
 Security is about doing it correctly. Half assed systems don't work and can increase the danger. I read an interesting article the other day about gun carrying people's intervention in shootings .vs waiting for the cops. The numbers worked out to an average of <3 people dead when a gun carrying member of society intervenes .vs >20 people dead when waiting for the cops to respond. There was also a good mention on the "Batman Movie" shooter specifically choosing the cinema which prohibited firearms, it was the only 1 of 7 in the area. I can't find the link now (of course) but I will keep looking for the information. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 9:02am
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What has happened to our society, our culture? Why have we degenerated into this culture of violence, what has changed in the past 50 or so years. In the 1950's growing up we did not see this behavior, did we have a moral compass back then, if so what was it? Television, movies, music had an innocense to it, violence was not a 'mainstay' in our entertainment back then. Leave it to Beaver was a look into the innocense, Gilligans Island, Batman (TV series, look where that has gone from a comic book look to a blood fest), westerns were life lessons, Star Trek looked into man's flaws. Now we have shows glorifying the disfunctional family, Hollywood, quick to voice thier anti-gun stance all the while making blood soaked films because 'they sell'. Is there a corelation between these violent video games and the way weak menatlly ill minds percieve reality? I do find it interesting that Isreal, an 'armed' culture by necesity manages not to have these violence problems, because as was seen in Oregon, our 'brave' criminals really prefer victims that can not shoot back. Do we need armed and visable guards in our culture, prefered over punishing the innocent majority because we as a culture do not have the moral courage to address the real problem in our culture. Gun control just means those who can still aquire guns have no fear of the 'victim' and we get a predatory culture able to prey on the unarmed victims with little fear, and when caught a judicial system that will protect the criminal over the culture itself. Here is a test of our culture. I bet you can name the shooters at Columbine, or the Conneticut shooter(s) now without looking it up, name one victim. -------------
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 9:05am
A lot of teachers don't have the desire to touch a gun. Good luck getting them to train with the and use them. Parents would freak out if there were guns in the classrooms. The only way to make this happen is to keep the information confidential from everyone. Only the pro-gun, trained and responsible teachers would have them. My high school and middle school had a few armed officers assigned year-round. There would be an immediate response to any violent action. I get that they would probably take the first hit, and that security is better when the guards aren't known; but it's better than nothing. -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:22am
The
atrocity at the Connecticut elementary school will not be the last such
horror, nor was it the first or even the worst. Go back to the year
1764, in what is now Franklin County, Pennsylvania. The first: during
Pontiac’s Rebellion in the wake of the French and Indian War, four
“warriors” entered a schoolhouse and slaughtered the headmaster and some
ten children. http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPontiac%2527&h=6AQHhUwQwAQEpLFlD1IXLawe0bdhAxxTGfc3M4LBXmJ07og&s=1" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac%27
... l_massacre . The worst: in 1927, a crazed monster beat his wife to
death, then triggered a bombing in an elementary school in Bath,
Michigan, killing some 38 kids and several adults. http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBath_School_disaster&h=hAQE4VfrbAQEQiEWpurkVR7uoMFKYTfutkEbZxTcfqQHU6w&s=1" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster .
|
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:30am
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A buddy of mine who used to be a deputy(is now a recruit for the Marshals), posited the other day that maybe there would be a way for select teachers to receive a training course fom local PDs/SOs. Where the teachers that are selected/volunteer/whatever take a couple weeks of their 3 month summer vacation and get some training from LEOs for active shooter scenarios. The more I think about it though, the less favorably I view that particular option. No way in hell would I want guns in the classrooms at my high school surrounded by the type of population that existed there. How long would it be before a couple gang members rushed a teacher to steal the gun? The only way it'd be feasible, would be some type of massive spending to install some type of locked safe system that required both the teacher unlocking it, and a signal from elsewhere allowing the safe to be opened. Maybe an increase in SRO presences is the answer. I know most elementary school don't have them. OS, I have to disagree with a lot of what you wrote. Sort of looking at the past through rose colored glasses, IMO. There have been confirmed serial killers for at least 600 years. There may not have been violence on TV shows back when, but when there's only 3 channels, that likelihood goes way down doesn't it? I also don't think it's fair to denounce the violence in modern culture while talking about westerns(which were chock full of violence) as teaching life lessons while they glorified a pretty terrible time in our nation's history. Also, someone else may have the link, but I'm pretty sure the whole, "video games make people violent/aggressive" thing has been pretty widely disproven in the long term.(ie; more than RIGHT after playing) Something I find interesting, tough, is your idea about our nation's view on armed security. You see it whenever an event needs security. Hell, after 9/11, people cried out about having national guard troops supporting airport security. Any time LE or military forces have to turn out in numbers or riot gear, they're jackbooted thugs trying to suppress people. Maybe we live in a nation of sheep that resent the sheppherd and the sheepdogs. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:35am
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How would the students know which teachers are carrying concealed? Think of it as air marshals. They know someone is carrying, but who.... |
Posted By: Reb Cpl
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:43am
I think you still run the risk of teachers bailing out of schools if they know that some of their peers are armed, no matter the intent of even a voluntary program. Given the nature of the education training that people are being given today (as a product of it myself) the vast majority of new teachers are being cut from the same cloth as the anti-gunners are. Forcing teachers into weapons training is a bad enough idea, but you're still going to have teachers quit their positions if they thought for a second that any of their fellow teachers were carrying. These people are 'anti-gun' about as much as they are 'anti-violence' and will not see past the fact that there's an armed teacher or two in the building- no matter the implications of security. The only option I can think think of that would be remotely feasible, would be to have some sort of rotational basis set up with local law enforcement offices where someone is assigned to 'school duty' as a uniformed officer for a period of time, and have it rotate- as much of a shift as anything else. But this would have to be done everywhere. That means municipalities shelling out for full time officers, paying for training, benefits and overtime......etc. There's a lot of holes in this idea, but its really the only way I can think of to keep teachers and parents from getting bent up about having either an armed teacher or six, or leaving schools completely unprotected- largely as is. ------------- ? |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:44am
But how difficult would it really be for a couple guys in Sur13(and I pick Sur 13 because, at my school at least, they would be far and away the group most likely to be involved in something like this) to deduce who's likely enough to at least be worth a fight with? Take out the elderly teachers, at least assume that male teachers are more likely to volunteer, etc. A lot of those guys are just waiting to turn 16 so they can drop out anyways, and trying to fight teachers happens anyways. All it takes is getting a couple of younger members to try to pick a fight with a suspected carrier and it's confirmed. It's easy to tell if someone is armed while theyre defending themselves. Not saying all schools are like this, but I know there are a lot of schools way worse than mine was, and I wouldn't have wanted teachers there carrying on their persons.
The high schools(and maybe the middle schools?) have SROs in my county, and most of the surrounding area. It's a position in the Sheriff's Office. My HS had two or three, one of whom who was a K-9 officer. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:50am
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I thought schools have zero tolerance policy's when it comes to violence? I'm sure these kids have a history of fighting before making it to HS, why let them enter general population. |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:02pm
At my school, a fight was a ten day out of school suspension. The fighting with a teacher we usually a "by-product" of a fight getting pulled apart. I don't want to give the wrong idea about my school. I felt safe 99%+ of the time. But there were some guys I wouldn't want to run into now, and more than once I saw people do things I thought only happened in LA, New York, and bars in bad 90s movies. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:05pm
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Fighting on school grounds, should result in expulsion. If they want to fight indoors, they can wait till they get to prison. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:16pm
There are approximately 100,000 public schools in the U.S. Figure one officer per school during the school day, times about ten months of attendance a year, 83,000 person-years of police duty per annum to do this. At a median salary of $53k per year in the U.S., you're at close to $4.5 billion per annum in salary alone. Add other benefits and personnel expenses, officers being on vacation and being replaced, etc, and you should easily be looking at in excess of $6b/a. There are about 800,000 police officers in the U.S., so this would take up more than a tenth of America's total sworn police officer capacity. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:27pm
| 6 billion? We spend that in less than two days. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 1:54pm
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I'm sure there will be hold outs. I'm quite convinced there will need to be a shuffle around of personnel and the like. But imagine if a school did institute armed, trained teachers. I'm willing to bet the next school shooting would not be at it. If some of the bunny huggers need to leave, so be it. If some families pull their kids out, so what? There are police forces that went from unarmed to armed with the same attrition. Your "force" will be stronger for those that have left. We hand our kids over to a bunch of people to look after their well being for up to 8 hours a day. The teachers should nut up and admit that they are there to look after them, come hell or high water. Teachers have to attend first aid and other courses before they are allowed to look after kids. Add how to strip and maintain a 9x19mm and how to run a failure drill. Those that can't hack it can go teach in California or New York. Everyone is saying how one of the dead teachers is a hero because she hid her kids in closets and then when confronted by the shooter told them they were at gym. He then killed her. If she'd planted two in his face the ordeal would have been over much quicker with less loss of life. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 2:04pm
That's what I meant by confidential. But then I see the flaw in my argument. If even just the superintendents and armed teachers know, word of armed teachers would be national news the next day. I'm starting to lean towards Kayback's opinion. Who cares about the attrition? Teachers will still remain, parents will still send children to school or homeschool them, all because of necessity. A teacher strike, however, could result, and that helps nobody. -------------
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 2:26pm
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http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Active-shooters-in-schools-The-enemy-is-denial/ This is a pretty good take on things. You don't ban matches, you face up to things take precautions. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:28pm
Some kids are the victim. They would be expelled for defending themselves. Is that what you want? |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:30pm
Nope, as long as both parties didn't agree to the fight before it began. Then the aggressor goes away. |
Posted By: Rofl_Mao
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:35pm
I wish it were that way. Sadly, no-tolerance policies today make it so both the victim and the aggressor are treated with the same punishment. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 11:54pm
| I know what the current policy is, was just stating how it should be. |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:55am
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I do have a fairly big problem with "zero tolerance" policy for violence in schools that treat any violent act, regardless of severity or motivation, as equally unethical. We can't expect every kid to be mini-ghandi. Once a kid gets the idea that if he gets into any type of altercation that it will be interpreted in the worst possible light, they will be as violent as possible. I know there's no such thing as a fair fight, but if someone shoves you and walks past, you should expect worse punishment if you smash him upside the head with a skateboard while he's walking away. This is not something I think many in education, or many policies understand. To follow up on the last, education is seriously female-dominated, violent offenders are predominately male. I can remember one of the few cases in high school when I got into a physical confrontation and could easily have been suspended or worse. It was between me and a good friend of mine over a chess game (of all things). The two of us simply escalated to a point where there was no way not to lose face without throwing a punch. We managed to have a discussion in the hallway and return to class without a record, in other cases it would have been multiday suspension, possible involvement with law-enforcement, calling of parents and potential lawsuits etc. Too many people are so dead set on having an ideal world that they want zero-tolerance, no guns, nuclear disarmament that they won't accept a better world of arms reduction, more fair fights, or monitoring of gun access. |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:22am
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I was trying to think of a solution, looks like we haven't found one. I get it, kids fight in school. Come to think of it, I never got in a fight after grade school. Strange... Any who. Obviously, zero tolerance policies haven't worked. Gun free zones haven't worked. Gun control hasn't worked. What haven't we tried yet? |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:35am
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Some gun control has largely worked. How many machine gun are used in crimes, especially those that are legally owned? How many SBRs or shotguns are? |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:03am
I honestly believe the only reason the NFA was enacted, was so the prohibition agents didn't lose their jobs. Hence the ATF was created. Just like the prohbies, they were first tax revenue agents. And slowly turned into what they are today. I think the criminals of today, realized along with the military, to make every shot count. Criminals can obtain machine guns, but honestly why bother. It's not hard to cut down a rifle or shotgun. And many of them are. Criminals prefer handguns over them all. Cheaper and more concealable. |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 10:04am
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I can forsee some repricussions over this across the nation. The need to feel like we are doing something to prevent this has to be satiated, it's in our nature. In truth, short of building schools like prisons with bulletproof glass, playgrounds within 10 foot walls, loading/unloading zones within impenetrable barriers, armed guards etc. there is no way to make schools truly 100% safe. Much to do is being made about all of this, but go to most schools and a determined person could find multiple times/ways to do harm. Discussions were made locally about locking down the entire school all day long and setting it up that people have to be buzzed in. The practicality of this is questionable. There are dozens and on some days hundreds of people coming in and out of the school during session. From volunteers and delivery people, to parents coming in to help with class parties or simply to eat lunch with their kids. It would take a nearly full time person to screen and buzz in every single person. But even if this were to take place, you still have 2 hours or so in the morning and afternoon where you have kids unloading and loading onto school busses. The playground is full of screaming ankle biters from about 9am on for recess. On the other side of the school, during decent weather, there are gym classes playing soccer or flag football or whatever. Honestly, it sucks to say but schools are pretty much "target rich" environments. They are filled nearly the entire day with helpless kids who may or may not know to run away from strangers and/or determine when there is or isn't a threat of danger. They are also mostly defenseless. Unless we want to turn our schools into virtual prisons, there is little that can be truly done. And even if it is instituted, what do you do about the kids that walk home from school? I know when I was in school, it was like ants leaving the mound when that bell rang.
And if as a society we did decide to go down this path and build our schools to be like prisons forcing our kids to play in walled courtyards or simply making them stay inside hiding from the outside world, is this truly how we want our kids to see the world? I think as it is, we have done irrepairable harm to a couple of generations in making them feel like they are always under siege from evildoers. In the grand scheme of things very few kids are killed by gun toting assailants, as are very few ever actually abducted and killed. Part of the problem is that we have become obsessed with stories about how the boogie man is out to get us all and we need to cower down under our beds and hide. It's sad really, but I think its time for a change. Lets start teaching our kids to be fighters, not hiders. Instead of making them afraid of the world around them, lets teach them how to defend themselves and take control of the situation. Most of these types of assailants are cowards and when confronted, do the world a favor and off themselves, much like bullies back down when stood up to. Lets start raising heroes again.
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 10:24am
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Here's what we'll see happen. There will be a heightened security presence through the end of the (school) year and into next. Then municipalities won't have the money to keep the extra SROs or beat cops tied up around schools that are quiet, and will pull the resources for use elsewhere. You'll see some form of firearms regulation passed in the spring. It'll be watered down and do nothing to prevent firearms from getting into the hands of those who shouldn't because the people writing the laws will have no idea what makes one weapon "more deadly" than another. In the mean time, you'll see a run on all self-loading firearms with the ability to accept a detachable magazine and SKSs. Whatever bans are put in place won't make it through congress without a sunset provision. What's more, if BHO attempts to executive order his way to a ban of any sort, it'll be immediately slapped with a federal injunction and the challenge will go before SCOTUS and the ex-or will be shot down in the interest of maintaining checks and balances if nothing else. You will see a slight increase in 01-FFL and 03-FFL applications from people who have figured out that it's better to have a firearms license and not have to deal with NICS and various state laws which don't pertain to FFLs. You will not see any "no grandfather" clauses make it into any passable legislation because it's not only impractical, but impossible to get people to turn over their magazines and firearms. No police officer in their right mind would ever go to the door of someone suspected of having an assault rifle and mags and tell them to hand them over. And in instances where they would forcibly attempt to, you'd see a lot of shootings and dead police and civilians because of it. If you send in the military to do so, you're going to incite a civil uprising and turn the nation against the government. My suggestion is to see what common-sense suggestions are out there and support them by writing your senators and congressmen. Action WILL happen, people will lose their jobs if they don't do something but it needs to be sensible, and you know congress isn't capable of that without outside help. Here are my suggestions, you can adopt or modify them as necessary to fit your views when writing your representatives: Open the NICS system to individuals for face to face transfers. Something I'd like to have which would shut up the "gunshow loophole" morons out there. Allow the FBI to charge $5/xfer to supplement the cost of additional people to run checks. Limit future magazine capacity to 20 rounds. This was military standard for some time and is more than enough for civilian purposes or to hold any invading chicoms at bay to allow your buddy to reload. Require all self-loading firearms and handguns in the US to come with an integrated locking system (a lot of pistols do anymore) Require a firearms safety education class for all teenagers in the public school system. Get the NRA to back this and have them volunteer to work hand-in-hand with the FBI or BATFE to produce a quality class (not just a video) which teaches the basics of firearms safety so that kids don't accidentally shoot themselves or others if they come across a weapon Require all certified mental health professionals (psychologists and psychiatrists, not "counselors") to notify the state LEA of any individual they feel is a threat to themselves or others. Don't necessarily tie it to the NICS, but at least it gives the police credible and professional backing to follow up on any cases where someone is reported to be a potential threat. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 10:40am
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I don't want to be on duty in a uniform on the day a piece of legislation gets passed that says people have to turn weapons over to the government. Not saying that anything like that has a snowball's chance of passing in the very near future, but I have a feeling that would be the spark that started a wildfire. Tallen's right, there'd be a lot of dead cops following something like that. Look at the patriot movement right now, they almost always view LEO as the face of the government they are resisting, while ignoring that many on those forces are farther to the right than many as well. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 10:41am
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I'm always torn on the "assault weapon ban" issue. While I really don't feel that there is truly a need for Joe Civilian to have an AK47 or AR15 with 20 round magazines loaded with hollow points, I am not 100% comfortable with disarming what may be a necessary militia if things ever go pear sharped . Hard to weigh things like this sometimes. Part of the problem I have is that IMO, a lot of the people that gravitate towards owning these types of firearms may tend to be a bit on the fringe as it is. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:08am
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I think the civilian disarmament issue speaks volumes to the power of the people vs the power of the government. Trying to take away firearms would be unconstitutional as it goes against 2A. The government can't effectively enforce it as owners will resist. It's in our nature as Americans to deny the government the ability to infringe upon our rights guaranteed by the constitution. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:16am
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But its the same argument over and over. Where do you draw the line? Yes, there is the right to bear arms, but nowhere does it say that its your right to own something capable of wonton savagery. Fully automatic weapons are forbidden to civilian populations as are I am guessing rocket launchers, live grenades, etc. Tough call at times. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:18pm
Uh, lots of illegally converted machine guns are used every year. There has only been 1 instance of a homicide committed with a legally owned fully automatic weapon since 1986 and that was a police officer who was nutso. In 2009 alone, there were multiple cases and 3 illegal machine guns recovered by the state of California. Sawn-off shotguns are regularly tied to murders and other crimes, SBRs, not so much. The reality is that criminals don't care. Gun control laws haven't made it harder to prevent criminals from getting full-auto. Changes in manufacturing have done more for that. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:57pm
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I like what OPB had to say. Tallen: Don't you think gun training should start earlier than teenagers. Such as grade school. When kids are the most curious, and not the most intelligent. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:04pm
 Uh... nope. Fully automatic weapons are readily available, just check the NFA section of gunbroker.com. So are rocket launchers, live grenades, shoulder fired missiles, mortars, howitzers, cannons, recoiless rifles, anti-tank guns, mines, claymores, etc. etc. etc. Full autos are class III weapons require a tax stamp and CLEO sign off. All the other things I've listed are either AOWs (all other weapons) or DDs (Destructive Devices) and likewise require a tax stamp per item. But yeah, you can buy a LAW launcher and rocket. You'll pay a tax stamp on each, but at the price you'd pay for those items, it's a drop in the bucket. Impulse, that's fine, but I think you'll see a lot of kickback from people suggesting that it's "too young" to introduce kids to the idea of firearms because they "don't understand death" and thus, wouldn't see the consequences of the actions. It's bull-crap, but what can you do... ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |